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Kithmaker
Commander
3926 Posts
    
 | | 06/11/2006 10:55 AM |
| Maybe I should call it quits on DDM skirmish. The qualifier season has left a bitter taste in my mouth, and I won't be able to play in the championship (no possibility of playing in the Grinder since I fly into Indy about the time it starts).
Some clear lessons learned from this season:
1) Don't run a warband that you merely like and are solid with -- run some variation of the current top 2-3 builds (unless, of course, what you like and are solid with happens to BE one of the top 2-3 builds).
2) Minimize random factors. In fact, try to avoid having to roll the die at all -- or when you do, make sure that you'll only fail on a 1. Stellar play can only get you so far if the numbers beat you (all 3 of my losses in MD came from multiple failures to hit, even AC 17 HGBs).
It's just really frustrating, because I know I'm good enough. Since moving to MD, I had only lost one game in three local tournaments (and they had to bring in a "ringer" from FL to beat me).
My experience at the MD qualifier has also completely solidified my stance that already-qualified players should not be allowed to play in further qualifiers. Charles Schroder, who qualified in NJ, contributed to preventing me from qualifying by defeating me in the second match. (Charles, I don't bear you any ill will personally -- I would be frustrated about any already-qualified player who defeated me in my attempt to qualify.) Had he not faced me at all, it is possible (though perhaps still as unlikely?) that I would have fared better. In any case, a loss to another player actually attempting to qualify would have been easier to swallow. He helped knock me out of the running, and he wasn't even in the running himself (he had declared his intention to drop if he was entering the top 4).
So, it may be a good time to hang up my hat. I tried, and failed. At least now I know. The wife bugs me about the time and money spent on this stuff anyway, and if I have nothing to show for it, what's the point? I'm getting really tired of losing to the same warbands over and over, so the fun is starting to fade. | |
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kyrin
Commander
3152 Posts
| | 06/11/2006 11:17 AM |
| I have to agree with you, Kith, and I'm also considering getting out of skirmish for just the reasons you state.
A guy beat me at the Qualifier with a standard Marut band, a guy that made the final four. After the match, I shook his hand and said, "You got some nice synergies in that band, there." He looked at me and said, without a smile, "Yep, I just wish it was mine."
That's kinda sad, IMNSHO. Dude didn't seem to be having a lot of fun while playing me, and I'm not sure how much attention he was even paying to my moves. He was just waiting to execute the next standard move for his standard band.
Reminds of why I never got into chess.
Interesting language, too. When someone plays a "non-Tier I" band, it's called a "rogue" band. I would use the word "original."
Guess that's why I'm not -- and never will be -- a "top tier" player. I don't use other people's warbands, and I've got too much going on in Life to look for the Next Broken Piece or the Next Killer Synergy. Ah well, as long as the entry fees don't get too high, I'll probably keep playing. I've made some good friends on the local scene, and that's what it's all about.
JIM
aka kyrin | |
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Auramancer
Sneak
141 Posts
League City, TX
| | 06/11/2006 11:23 AM |
| Sorry that you're feeling down on skirmish...
My advice: Primarily skirmish locally for fun. Take your travel expenses and time and get yourself guaranteed prizes by ordering cases online.
I'm near Houston. The closest qualifier is near Dallas. That's a 5 hour drive each way, around $70 in gas, probably a hotel room plus meals. In my opinion, unless you're primary motivation is to gain the prestige of playing with the "big boys" (or to become a "big boy"), it is much more effective to simply order additional cases and drum up play locally.
Obviously, you're planning to go to GenCon, so DDM events there are somewhat incidental (unless the championship was your only reason for going). I'm sure you could help your bruised ego via pickup games with any of the DDM players that qualified who drop as a result of similar random factors. I'd expect there'll be another maxminis tournament. I'd think you can still have a great time. | |
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RobWreck
Warrior
295 Posts
| | 06/11/2006 11:54 AM |
| Ya know, I was under the impression that the Qualifiers and tournaments were there to SUPPORT peole playing DDM, not to be THE reason to play DDM. If my belief is accurate, then quitting because you had to face 'cookie-cutter bands' isn't a great idea. Quitting the tournament scene is fine, but don't leave the game because too many people have latched onto using the same 6 or so bands at tournaments.
Personally, the biggest lesson I learned from the qualifiers was that you have to focus on getting the 200 points, not on beating the other person's band. I had my first opponent on the ropes at the Milford qualifier, but instead of facing me, he ran, scored the voctory points he needed and won. 2 rounds of victory points was the difference between me killing his band and him winning on points. That was the most important thing I learned...
Rob | |
Champion of Aspect of Pelor
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XenoZephyr
Underboss
1083 Posts
| | 06/11/2006 11:59 AM |
| You should check out the reports from the qualifers from yesterday, sounds like a few non-starndard bands did just fine.
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Kithmaker
Commander
3926 Posts
| | 06/11/2006 12:00 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by RobWreck
Ya know, I was under the impression that the Qualifiers and tournaments were there to SUPPORT peole playing DDM, not to be THE reason to play DDM.
Well, this season it was my reason.
quote:
Personally, the biggest lesson I learned from the qualifiers was that you have to focus on getting the 200 points, not on beating the other person's band. I had my first opponent on the ropes at the Milford qualifier, but instead of facing me, he ran, scored the voctory points he needed and won. 2 rounds of victory points was the difference between me killing his band and him winning on points. That was the most important thing I learned...
Oh, I've got that strategy down: in MN one of my wins came from getting 110 VP against a Balor band, and in MD one of my wins came from getting 80 VP against a Marut band. | |
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Daunte
Sergeant
518 Posts
| | 06/11/2006 12:12 PM |
| | I agree and disagree with some of things Kith says. But the main thing i agree with is people who have qualified playing in other tourneys. If your in then your in, let everyone else have a shot at making the top 4 as well without having to play someone who is already in. | |
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Daniel_Tick
Warrior
220 Posts
| | 06/11/2006 12:29 PM |
| I'm sorry to hear that, my friend.
Like it was said, you should focus on the fun and the friendly experience first. It's understandable that everyone has their own reasons, but my advice is to keep it as it is: just a game, and games are for fun.
I had an horrible experience when I defeated Jim (jdb1221) yesterday, because I knew that that could've been his only loss, and that would hurt him a lot. Thankfully, those incorporeal rolls were working my way for the rest of the day, and I finished up 1st place, so the pain in my chest was gone. And Jim wasn't rolling all that great on a couple of other games, so it wasn't entirely my fault. I didn't want to take any of my friends out just for a chance on qualifing if it wasn't for the number one spot.
Not allowing qualified player's to play the qualifiers might be a good thing to do. But I'm not the one to say, that was my first Qualifier.
Anyways, dude, I hope you take that off your mind, and continue wooping everyone on the local tournament's as you've been doing for such a long time.
Cheers! | |
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greyhaze
Warlord
5841 Posts
| | 06/11/2006 12:41 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Daunte
I agree and disagree with some of things Kith says. But the main thing i agree with is people who have qualified playing in other tourneys. If your in then your in, let everyone else have a shot at making the top 4 as well without having to play someone who is already in.
Agreed. Why are they there anyways? Just to prove they can do it again? It skews the pool imo.
I'm not happy about the tourney environment myself, but for different reasons. I'll probably try again next year, but have a judge nearby at all times. I know I'm not the best player, but losing out to someone playing out the clock, sucks.
And the dice factor can be extremely harsh, but what are they gonna do - D&D = 20 sided dice. | |
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Lord_Raven
Sergeant
391 Posts
| | 06/11/2006 1:01 PM |
| Kith i'm sorry you feel that way... But you can't call it quits!!
Personally I went to 3 qualifiers:
Played my signature warband @ each qualifier - no "net" warband for me either: "Brady Bunch" - 3x FB's, Rikka, 3x Xeph's and an elf warrior.
Richmond, KY - (8 hour drive) played my warband - finished 3-3.
Every loss was due to me missing multiple "conceal 6" rolls. Not because I played poorly or couldn't hit or the band was weak - just missed tons of Conceal 6 crap. Chalked it up to bad dice rolling.
Pittsburg, PA - (6 hour drive) similar situation - finished 4-2.
I lost in the 2nd round to a Monk Band - the girls were all stunned by the end of the 2nd round - not one of them made it (a 10 up each) I had based his YM and killed one Gith in the process - and had his Victory point Gith based as well... Again I was in position to kill and check crap and with them all failing the stuns - he won init and killed with no Death strikes either.
I was 4-1 going into my last match and had a chance to beat the undefeated Archmage band - and with a FB basing the AM he took a step away and I swung - hit - and failed the Conceal 6 roll. Another loss because he won on Victory Points, my FB could only base him, but never won init to get the attacks I needed.
6th place in the event overall.
Glen Burnie, MD - (3 hours from home) This was my last Qual - wife has been very forgiving so far... but my dice were not so forgiving.
Final chance for the Girls - I changed my board to Dragonshrine vs Teleport Temple. Something new...
2nd round & I was playing at the 1st table undefeated and after pairings for the 3rd round I got the lower seeded Neil (1-1) from Florida - playing Duergar Champ (the bane of my warband) So for the kill and doing the last 5 pts needed to remove it from the board - because he made his MC (@-2 Aura of fear) even after I killed his Commander. So for the killing blow I hit and miss the conceal!! His DC then killed my FB and another FB popped and missed he deathstrike.
This knocked me so far down, I had to win out to make the cut.
So I make it back up to 4-1 and draw the undefeated player for my final match and with my luck - my dice went Ice Cold... I missed so many shots to hit - although there was no Conceal and no Monks involved I had killed his Cleric of the Order and still never won an Init - so Kord laid out the damage every time to splat each of my Girls - I had a shot at the end of the game to hit his Couatl - rolled a 2, missed Deathstrike. So I based his Kord to get a hit there - Rolled another 2 - and deathstrike - rolled a 1... I gave up! Never won an Init that game - always rolled crap to hit.
Finished 6th again.
I agree with you - I had a very solid warband with Brady Bunch - Won alot! But couldn't hit Conceal when I needed it. 75% chance to hit and I prob only hit 25% of the time...
Minimize Random Factors!! No doubt! I totally agree... Conceal sucks. Blindsight for me from now on.
Charles is a team member of mine - I know why he played in the Qualifier - He wanted the practice and the DCI points and if he felt he had a shot at the plane ticket, I'm sure he would not have dropped.
But he dropped before the cut to top 4 to allow others that didn't have an invite to go, to get one.
Take a break for a while and learn from your experience, I think i've decided to refine the way I look at bands and pick fewer things to lessen my chances to fail. I prob won't play the Grinder either but have signed up for other stuff... So I will play you in other events while they are all playing in Nats and i'll see you at GenCon!!
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Guru
guyf
Sergeant
545 Posts
| | 06/11/2006 1:01 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by greyhaze
Why are they there anyways? Just to prove they can do it again?
Possibly. However, I'd bet most already-qualified players do it for some of these reasons instead:
- They want to have fun playing in a tournament.
- They want to increase their DCI rating.
- They want to get prizes.
- They want to practice playing in a very competitive environment.
- They want to give themselves an easier time at the championships by taking up another qualifier spot, and thus reducing the number of players to account for (ie. study) at the championships.
These are all perfectly valid reasons for playing. Some of them might not be considered, "nice," but they're all still valid and reasonable. | |
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Guy Fullerton
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| The Defenestrator
AesophDarkfable
Warlord
5628 Posts
| | 06/11/2006 1:21 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by guyf
quote:
Originally posted by greyhaze
Why are they there anyways? Just to prove they can do it again?
Possibly. However, I'd bet most already-qualified players do it for some of these reasons instead:
- They want to have fun playing in a tournament.
- They want to increase their DCI rating.
- They want to get prizes.
- They want to practice playing in a very competitive environment.
- They want to give themselves an easier time at the championships by taking up another qualifier spot, and thus reducing the number of players to account for (ie. study) at the championships.
These are all perfectly valid reasons for playing. Some of them might not be considered, "nice," but they're all still valid and reasonable.
There has been massive discussion of this (as you know Guy, but this is for others that might not go there) in the tournaments forum. If I could have this weekend I would have to Niles and played again, though I've already qualified the competition alone is worth the price of admission. To be the best you have to beat the best they say, and quals are the best tournaments we have until Nats. | |
Im out- find me on Hordelings if you want to chat. | |
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Choco Monster
Ghendar
Warlord
11227 Posts
The Dark and Forbidding Lands of The Necromancer.
| | 06/11/2006 1:27 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Daunte
I agree and disagree with some of things Kith says. But the main thing i agree with is people who have qualified playing in other tourneys. If your in then your in, let everyone else have a shot at making the top 4 as well without having to play someone who is already in.
I agree. Once you've qualified, you shouldn't be allowed to play in another qualifier. | |
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Fry
Underboss
1724 Posts
| | 06/11/2006 2:04 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Ghendar
I agree. Once you've qualified, you shouldn't be allowed to play in another qualifier.
Which is how the Magic Pro Tour works. (once you're qualified, you're not allowed to play in any more qualifying tournaments)
Kith: you also have to set yourself up to where the dice matter. I think you made a few mistakes in the match against my Hill Giants such that even hitting them a few more times wouldn't have made a huge difference.
Also: a Mounted Paladin was in contention for top 4 going into the final round of Swiss. Let me say that again: a Mounted Paladin was in contention to qualify. Don't worry so much about the whole "top tier" warbands thing. And don't quit the game over this stuff, you're an asset to the community. | |
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DaemonKain
Warrior
312 Posts
| | 06/11/2006 2:16 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Kithmaker
Maybe I should call it quits on DDM skirmish. The qualifier season has left a bitter taste in my mouth, and I won't be able to play in the championship (no possibility of playing in the Grinder since I fly into Indy about the time it starts).
My experience at the MD qualifier has also completely solidified my stance that already-qualified players should not be allowed to play in further qualifiers. Charles Schroder, who qualified in NJ, contributed to preventing me from qualifying by defeating me in the second match. (Charles, I don't bear you any ill will personally -- I would be frustrated about any already-qualified player who defeated me in my attempt to qualify.) Had he not faced me at all, it is possible (though perhaps still as unlikely?) that I would have fared better. In any case, a loss to another player actually attempting to qualify would have been easier to swallow. He helped knock me out of the running, and he wasn't even in the running himself (he had declared his intention to drop if he was entering the top 4).
Kith:
I'm very sorry that the qual didn't end up better for you. We've played several times, and I think you are a good player, perfectly capable of qualifying and perfectly capable of competing at Nationals. You are also, from all of our interactions, a good guy, and someone I respect.
That being said, I have to disagree with you here. I don't think that players who have already qualified playing in further qualifiers hurts anyone else, as long as they drop before the cut to top four. I wrote a long post about this just a moment ago, but the boards have consumed it. :( I'll try to recreate, but please all bear with me.
Since you use yourself and Charles as examples, I'll continue doing so. I know you don't intend to disparage him, and please know that I don't intend to disparage you, or denigrate your opinion or feelings in any way. I simply strongly disagree on this point, and feel compelled to discuss it.
First: Charles did not take anyone's qualifier slot. As pointed out by Guy, there are plenty of good reasons to want to play in a qualifier. However, I'd like to focus on the airfare top prize in particular. Charles made a decision before the tournament to give up something of real value to him - the shot at that prize. Though Lord_Raven may have understood differently, my understanding was that he Always intended to drop before the cut to the top four. Before he even came to the tourney, he and I had discussed it, and agreed that it was the right thing to do. I'm sure Charles could use a free plane ticket from Wizards, and the GenCon badge (couldn't we all use ~$300?) but he decided to give those up to let someone else, _anyone_ else, have an invitation to Nationals. Charles committed to give up personal value in exchange for increasing someone else's fun. We, as a community, should congratulate decisions like this! The fact that he did not end up being one of the top four shouldn't reduce the value of that commitment.
Second, I'm not convinced that facing Charles, rather than someone else of an equal record of the time, hurt your chances of qualifying. You've pointed out already that you've had great success playing against the Maryland folks, of whom Charles is one. Neither he nor anyone else in the game is unbeatable. In every game we all play, we can win or lose. Player skill and warband choice gives you greater or lesser chances, but the dice are always there.
If you hadn't been matched up against Charles (either because he wasn't playing at all, or because you didn't draw him), you would have had to play someone of an equal record. I highly doubt that there was anyone in the top 10 slots that wasn't a completely capable player, who couldn't also have given you a run for your money, or maybe even beaten you. How does playing Charles, rather than any one of the other good players there, hurt you, unless he's significantly better than anyone else at the tournament?
If the argument is that he Is significantly better than anyone else at the tournament, then I think you are actually at an advantage by playing him! If you win, well, there you go. It doesn't matter. But when you lose games, you want to only lose to people who are really good, because of the absolutely vital tiebreakers. If Charles is better than everyone else, than he's likely to help, not hurt, your tiebreak. So, as far as I see it, there is a significant silver lining to playing people who are good players. If you play someone who is weaker, and still lose, then you are screwed. If you get two losses, you'll have terrible tiebreaks, and have no chance of making the cut.
This was the situation I was in over the weekend. I fought my way to 4-0, through some pretty tough matchups. I faced good players all the way through, and won some squeakers, a few times through no fault of my own. Finally, only Konor and I were left undefeated. We faced off, and he won. Not to go too deeply into specifics, but a momentary rules lapse on my part (I didn't announce that I was taking an AOO, and Konor didn't mention that I could, since he didn't know that I could - melee reach issue) made an enormous difference in that game. If we play again, to the same situation, and I remember that rule, I win 8 out of 10 times. I forgot it. I got burned. And suddenly I was in trouble - I had one more match to go, and I might not make the cut.
I got matched up against Daniel, and I was scared. He's a great player, and I knew he could hand me that second loss and knock me out. I could have gotten matched up against someone weaker, but it didn't happen. But being matched against Daniel was actually a blessing in disguise. He had only lost to Konor, just like I had. So if he beat me, he added the absolute highest value to my tiebreakers.
That turned out to be the difference. He kicked my butt, and suddenly I was at 4-2. But losing only to good players, and beating quite a few good players on the way up, meant that I had the best tiebreaks. I made the cut at 4th place, and ended up taking 2nd.
I understand your, and everyone elses frustration at not making it to top four. I just really strongly disagree that having other top players play against you hurts you in any way, as long as they committ to dropping before the final 4. Personally, I think the prize structure should be leveled. I think we should just play swiss, and the top four who haven't already qualed should get equal prizes and that should be it. For right now, though, having people play and drop is a pretty good solution. Players who have already qualified look like they hurt you, but I just don't think it is the case. And preventing lots of people from playing the game they love hurts us all.
Thanks, everyone, for reading this.
Kith - Thank you especially, and change your tickets! :) I made it in through Grinder last year, and I'm here to say it's not that bad! You can do it too.
Good luck everyone. | |
-DaemonKain
Proud Mascot of Team Amish | |
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robbdaman
Underboss
2380 Posts
| | 06/11/2006 2:35 PM |
| This game is all about chance more than anything. I agree that taking the most current warband concepts that reduce chance is probably most people's best bet. This is dependent on the field of course. At a smaller tournament with less people you can play ridiculous stuff and get away with it. So I'd say that's another factor to throw in. Location, location, location. Wish I lived in BFE Twin Falls Idaho or way up in the great white north of Edmonton, Canada. Those people got the breaks as it's more about the local scene.
R~ | |
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| The Defenestrator
AesophDarkfable
Warlord
5628 Posts
| | 06/11/2006 2:46 PM |
| | A small aside on the thread, there are alot more than 2-3 bands out there. I know it was probably a number used for dramatic purposes but there are really a pleothra of bands out there that compete right now. And even a few small twists on a band make it play very different. You play Marut/Ballista very different than you play Marut/Bodyguard and that does different things than Sacred Marut. Sure you could say that Marut/Couatl is the archtype, but they are very different bands (espcially ballista vs the others). This qualifier season has been crazy varied, so much that many of the "rogue" bands out there are eye opening simply because there are so many. Last year there were only one or two bands that I said "that qualified?" (Renegade All stars for example). This year they are all over the place. | |
Im out- find me on Hordelings if you want to chat. | |
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SneakyJoeKDB
Sergeant
592 Posts
Utah
| | 06/11/2006 4:15 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Daunte
I agree and disagree with some of things Kith says. But the main thing i agree with is people who have qualified playing in other tourneys. If your in then your in, let everyone else have a shot at making the top 4 as well without having to play someone who is already in.
Just to add to this:
At the Idaho qualifier we had a lot of great players and good sportsmanship. However, the issue of people already qualifying came up and one person in particular, having taken 2nd place in one qualifier did the same at the Idaho qualifier. I like this individual dont get me wrong, I am complaining abut how this issue played out. A good DDM friend who is very competitve, Drakengi, playing at his 3rd qualifier unable to make top 4 at this point, placed 5th. He was bumped out of top 4 because an aready qualified player decided to qualify again.
I know this is legal by the rules, but there seems to be some ethics questions at stake.
Additionally, I know Drakengi can relate with Kith, he is a very good player and the games he lost was mainly due to really bad dice. I observed 2 of his 3 qualifers and this guy couldnt seem to roll over a 5.
But in summary, due to bad luck and already qualified players continuing to compete, a very competitive player may not make it to Gen Con now. I know very well that there are several other 5th place finishers that are unable to get to Gen Con for the very same reason. Bumped out of top 4 because already qualified players continue to qualify. | |
"Like a thief in the Night"
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Sirohk
Commander
3813 Posts
USA
| | 06/11/2006 4:22 PM |
| Kith - keep playing DDM for the fun of it. I have not been playing that long and that is what has me hooked. That, and the people I have met, building warbands and trying them out, and the collecting of the mini's. Hey, bad die rolls / cold dice can get even the best players, just ask around.
I went to Toronto Qualifier and went 3-3. I did not qualify.
I went to Pittsburgh qualifier, with same warband and more practice and went 5-2 and qualified. Here's the big random part - in semifinal game I rolled a MC on my Zakya needing a 3 or better and I rolled a 1, poof Zak's gone with Tyranical Morale and so was game. I fought to the bitter end, but when I lost my Zak it really hurt. I tried to minimize bad rolls and one hit me at the worst time. If not for that, who knows I might have played in the final. Of course my opponent making ALL of his rolls didn't help either.
I plan to go to the Syracuse qualifier for the following reasons:
- I want to have fun playing in a tournament
- I want to meet more of the "local" (Eastern USA) DDM players
- I want to support a "local" quality game store that has hosted a number DDM events
- I hope to increase my DCI rating, but not a real essential for me
- I want to practice playing in a very competitive environment against good players to help improve my skill at the game
If by chance I make to final 4 again, I will drop as I have already qualified even if I think I can win it all. I've already qualified and I already have travel plans / reservations for GenCon.
Anyways, chin up, pick up those dice, go back to the drawing board, build a new warband, and keep playing!
Cheers.
Sirohk
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Sirohk, the Bard of Heartstone
Knight of the Rahshasa's
And Crusader of the Zakya, Ak'chazar, Naztharune, and Naityan Rakshasa's | |
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Zyla
Underboss
1187 Posts
| | 06/11/2006 4:29 PM |
| | I always use warbands i like playing rather then cookie-cutters, even at a professional level. I know a Marut/Couatl warband will have a good chance of winning, but if i do win i cant say that I won that game because it wasnt my warband idea. Never underestimate the underdogs! | |
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Lord_rock
Underboss
1792 Posts
Portland OR
| | 06/11/2006 4:50 PM |
| this is the most exciting time to be in ddm in my opinion...Ok variety but getting better with each set... i've just started playing tournies and love it so far...my only bad experience was when a player found out i was undeafeated said they would just forfit since they had already lost...giving me this forfit kept me out of the top 4 and let thier friend in instead...i hate that the tourny's are workable like that...we took 5 to the tourny though and my friends took 2nd and 4th and the previous tourny i took first and my other friend second...its just so much fun...i want to play more and more are starting to pop up around here finally...exciting time...
play local...play eternal campaign types... play variations of the blackgaurd dungeon...play the new scenarios online...all are great...just don't stop playing...
and guys who have already qualified...stay out and give the rest of us a shot...use your entry fees to buy the 2-3 boosters you'll get and support your game store...pick up games with those who drop and the like...save gas fare for plane fare (and the enviornment! :) | |
Rock Bottom Pricing:
Arcane Archer 30, Centaur Hero 67, Human Cleric of Bane 25, Gold Champion 34, Death Knight 52, Goblin Blackblade 9, Silentwolf Goblin 7, Orc Raider 10, Dwarf axefighter 9, Healer 9, Thaskor 65, Aspect of Demogorgon 71, Ogre 9, Fire Giant 79, Human Wanderer 7, Drunken Master 18, Barghest 12, Longstider Barbarian 27, Longtooth Barbarian 22, Frost Giant 76, Ravenous Vampire 42, Large Earth Elemental: priceless | |
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SneakyJoeKDB
Sergeant
592 Posts
Utah
| | 06/11/2006 4:58 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Lord_rock
my only bad experience was when a player found out i was undeafeated said they would just forfit since they had already lost...giving me this forfit kept me out of the top 4 and let thier friend in instead...i hate that the tourny's are workable like that...
I am very interested in the point I think you are making, however, I am a little confused at how you were kept out of the top 4 when you were undefeated? | |
"Like a thief in the Night"
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johnny.quest
Underboss
1341 Posts
| | 06/11/2006 6:28 PM |
| | This year's qualifiers are much more diverse than last year's. No warband is an auto-win. | | | |
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Gunthar
Commander
2938 Posts
| | 06/11/2006 6:36 PM |
| I have a few opinions on this (shocking, huh? [)])
I agree in the fact I don't like seeing the same "power bands" winning over and over. The game has at least gotten beyond CE Quad or nothing phase. That's good. I actually tried sandbagging for my beloved LG, which went about as far as I thought it would: Nowhere. So when it comes to current "Power Bands", I don't play them. That's just me. I had been toying with Sacred Watchers/Marut/Couatl builds at home and on my scratch pad since Wardrums came out. I was hoping that combo would stay clean until the MN Qualifier, which was early this year. It didn't. I really did want to qualify, but I wanted to do it with a "new" band, so I changed gears and actually decided on two bands to choose from the night before and basically made up my mind at breakfast. I fell a game short, mainly due to a major mistake I made in the first game that Lordrahl made me pay for, but it was a "new" band, so I was happy enough. I understand really wanting to qualify, especially if you've already dropped the cash for the trip, and during the game I'm a competitive as anyone, but I guess maybe Championships (while it would be nice) aren't that important to me so long as I'm having fun and meeting new people. So I guess I'd hope that's how others feel. However, the meeting people brings me to my second point,
As to those qualifying not playing in other qualifiers, I disagree. Reason One: I want as many participants at ANY tournament, and ESPECIALLY qualifiers to help the game. My biggest disappointment at the MN Qualifier was that we only had 32 people and lost some due to a concurrent Magic qualifier. My second-biggest was that I didn't get much of a chance to actually chat with new players. I was really disappounted I didn't get to chat with Kith more as I was really looking forward to meeting him. As it turned out, I played only 1 non-MN opponant. That's the social aspect of growing the game I feel is so important.
Reason Two: The Qualifiers are the biggest tournaments in regards to turnout. That means more games in a day, which (to me) equals more fun. Tie that in with the better chance for new opponants. I could see a rule stating if you qualify you AUTOMATICALLY drop in subsequent qualifiers if you would be in the top 4 otherwise, but I'm not sure that's right either. | |
Champion of Prit(Wemic vindication is here)
Minneapolis/St. Paul area
Completed trades: Aspect of Cheese (Love that moniker), Tickparasite, Elderthing, Lalato, Sodj, Grimoire, SmilinIrish, Zeb, RWarehall,Link, wikkawikkawa, Auramancer, Rommers, HK, Ivid5,Qillan_dvra, Puggins, Arcabius, Ironfist Boulderbender, Robby, Corim Danex, monster_slayer, DNDJUNKIE, Kelemvor, Krush, ckissee, Massawyrm, hockey fan, Wish, Uninspiring Lieutenant, vtloon x2, Vrecknidj, Darthpoke, WakeXX, AnarionZell, lycusmike, papabear5 and umpteen local trades with board members
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robbdaman
Underboss
2380 Posts
| | 06/11/2006 6:44 PM |
| Qualifiers are no where near the biggest turnout! For our Pre-releases and releases we have gotten close to 30 local players. We had a lot less for the qualifier. Add the fact that there were going to be so many out of towners at our qualifier due to SoCal not having one and we lost a lot of local players that could have come. The overcompetitive factor of top players coming from out of state ruins the local scene. It's something I think sucks big time as well.
R~ | |
Champion of the Titan
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Successful trades with: Tickparasite, Iyceman, Faragdar The Wise's friend, avrivah, Drakkengi, brucemc, Krush, maniacal_mini_monger, hung4treason, Gandy, NarlethDrider, Kunimatyu, etc, etc, blah, blah, blah..... | |
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Kithmaker
Commander
3926 Posts
| | 06/11/2006 6:49 PM |
| To address some of what has been said here...
...Fry: Yes, I agree that I made mistakes in our match -- but I did a quick count and I missed at least 6 attacks on your HGBs. That's 90 damage from my LE hitters, and definitely would have made a difference. But, like I mentioned in my first post, a loss to you didn't sting as much as it did against Charles.
...DaemonKain: Like I said, it may not have made a difference if I had played any of the other 1-0 players in the 2nd match, but the fact that it was Charles is what is hard to take. Despite your valid argument, his win against me did affect my further match-ups, and ultimately the final results.
I don't like preventing people from playing the game, but I like it less that already-qualified players are allowed to affect the outcome of other qualifiers.
And finally, I can't change my tickets without a penalty of nearly half the tickets' cost. Not worth it.
...AesophDarkfable: Yes, 2-3 was used for dramatic effect -- but really, you see 7 warbands that fall into that group of 2-3 for every 3 that fall outside of it. I don't know the exact numbers for either qualifier I participated in, but I think that at least 1/3 (maybe even half?) of the warbands must have been Couatl+(titan). So the "rogue" warbands are still in a small minority.
Maybe by the time we see WotDQ skirmish stats I'll be feeling better about things. | |
My H/W list is not current...
Trade Reference List
OLD Trade references (191) | |
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Lord_Raven
Sergeant
391 Posts
| | 06/11/2006 6:52 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by DaemonKain
Though Lord_Raven may have understood differently...
Whoops - my bad - thought he had mentioned that - I was wrong...
The point here Kith is everyone posting is showing you how they feel (look at all your friends responding) - that leaving the game is not what you want to do? I totally understand your frustrations - NO REALLY! Bad Dice happen... I was very upset leaving MD but after I got home - it was O.K.
Leaving the game is not the solution!! | |
Winter Fantasy, Wardrums Pre-release Champion
**Proud Member of Team Amish!** | |
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Krush
Commander
3143 Posts
| | 06/11/2006 7:07 PM |
| It can also be the solution as well. Hell I don't have a winning record not even close and the dice are not my friend either. Since reading this thread I too feel that I am wasting my time as well, why play when you are frustrated. I admit I have made some bone head moves, but lessons are always learned. Blah! Blah! Blah!
I feel for you Kith and what you have stated is the exact reason why I am not going to my qualifier. [B)] | |
Gehenna | |
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md3
Sergeant
697 Posts
| | 06/11/2006 8:00 PM |
| Qualifiers defeating others is a facet of competition. Let's just say that by qualifying at multiple events may seem foolish or unethical, it could be just a precise attempt to take out other potential Nats players without the fear of loss. If someone who already qualified could keep another player or two from qualifying then they are in a sense defeating those players at Nats without having to worry about playing them.
I know this is a harsh reality, but this could be motivation, albeit not the most sportsman-like motivation, but I'd bet that if you looked into other competitions you might see similar practices.
I am too lazy to drive to a qualifier and I don't know what method Wizards uses to pick sites, so I won't be practicing the above proposed harsh method of eliminating potential qualifiers. | |
"You are not the sum of your miniatures."
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Kithmaker
Commander
3926 Posts
| | 06/11/2006 9:23 PM |
| The thing is, I know Charles wasn't playing again to try to prevent anyone from going -- he just wanted to play, and as others have indicated, he very honorably planned to drop if he was in a position to take a qualifier spot.
But, that doesn't change the fact that his presence there affected the outcome of my chances at qualifying. Yes, I may have lost against a different opponent anyway, but we'll never know. | |
My H/W list is not current...
Trade Reference List
OLD Trade references (191) | |
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Gunthar
Commander
2938 Posts
| | 06/11/2006 9:48 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by robbdaman
Qualifiers are no where near the biggest turnout! For our Pre-releases and releases we have gotten close to 30 local players. We had a lot less for the qualifier. Add the fact that there were going to be so many out of towners at our qualifier due to SoCal not having one and we lost a lot of local players that could have come. The overcompetitive factor of top players coming from out of state ruins the local scene. It's something I think sucks big time as well.
R~
We get nice turnouts for Qualifiers and pre-releases, but some of the pre-release players are just RPGers grabbing some minis and nabbing promos. You also have very little control of what you play. The qualifiers are the "premier" events for constructed skirmish. I love teh OOTers, I love meeting new people and playing different people, win or lose. | |
Champion of Prit(Wemic vindication is here)
Minneapolis/St. Paul area
Completed trades: Aspect of Cheese (Love that moniker), Tickparasite, Elderthing, Lalato, Sodj, Grimoire, SmilinIrish, Zeb, RWarehall,Link, wikkawikkawa, Auramancer, Rommers, HK, Ivid5,Qillan_dvra, Puggins, Arcabius, Ironfist Boulderbender, Robby, Corim Danex, monster_slayer, DNDJUNKIE, Kelemvor, Krush, ckissee, Massawyrm, hockey fan, Wish, Uninspiring Lieutenant, vtloon x2, Vrecknidj, Darthpoke, WakeXX, AnarionZell, lycusmike, papabear5 and umpteen local trades with board members
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CSchroder
Sergeant
407 Posts
| | 06/11/2006 9:51 PM |
| Paul,
We obviously disagree on my decision to play at the MD Qualifier. I am sorry that your loss to me and your overall Qualifier frustration is making you consider quiting DDM Skirmish.
The first 4 reasons Guy listed are in fact the reasons why I played, in addition to seeing my friends that I expected to be there. I definitely had no desire of taking away a Qualifier spot from anybody as DaemonKain explained.
I do think it is a bit of a stretch to assume that you would have qualified if I had not been there. I finished 8th so 7 players were playing better than I was at our MD Qualifier and the top 4 players had records of 6-0, 5-1, 5-1 and 4-2. You had 3 losses. If you assume you would have beaten whoever you played instead of me, that only gets you to 4-2 and you still likely lose the tiebreakers to DaemonKain, who only had losses to the top 2 players.
Sure, you are good enough to qualify. But not everyone good enough to qualify, qualifies, for a variety of reasons including matchups, bad luck and one mistake too many. Pat Ellis, DaemonKain and AesophDarkfable all had to go to the Grinder last year and AesophDarkfable didn't qualify last year. But AD qualified this year. So I hope you keep trying and that you continue to play DDM Skirmish.
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Charles AKA The Beardless One, Proud Member of Team Amish | |
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Kithmaker
Commander
3926 Posts
| | 06/11/2006 10:05 PM |
| Charles --
Indeed, there's no guarantee I would have qualified had things been different. Nowhere in this thread have I assumed that I would have qualified. I know I'm operating on a lot of "ifs" here, but that's what my mind is dwelling on: what if...?
Also, as I said, I have no problem with you specifically -- I am just frustrated that someone who already qualified (again, this could have been anyone) affected my chances in a negative way.
Yes, ultimately, I had 3 losses -- but if I had gotten a different pairing and won or simply hadn't lost to you, then my pairings after that point would have been completely different. And yes, of course that's true for any tournament. I just had my heart set on playing at the championships.
In any case, I want to make it abundantly clear: no hard feelings about you or your choice to play in the qualifier. Just because you chose to play doesn't make me like you or respect you any less.
Things are just still bouncing around in my brain, since I had to wait until this year to even attempt to qualify (being in Korea for 2004 and 2005), and I won't get a chance like this again for another year. Just sad having to cancel orders for all the "Kithmaker in '06" billboards. [)] | |
My H/W list is not current...
Trade Reference List
OLD Trade references (191) | |
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Pegasus Knight
Sergeant
896 Posts
| | 06/11/2006 10:54 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Kithmaker
1) Don't run a warband that you merely like and are solid with -- run some variation of the current top 2-3 builds (unless, of course, what you like and are solid with happens to BE one of the top 2-3 builds).
I'm genuinely sorry you feel this way. I, too, feel it's frustrating to see Helmed Horrors and Marut-Couatl all the dang time. But...there are solutions to beating them. Trust me on this; if you research it, think about some strategies and pacing, and keep at it...you can bring them down.
The tendency to 'netband' is annoying, but also gives people a target to work against. It might not be wise to run a Hate-band, but you can run a Hate-tactic, and sometimes that works just as well.
I had a blast at my very first DDM tournament the other day, even with probably 1/4th to 1/3rd of the 24 person crowd running Marut-Couatl. The community is a lot of fun to be around, and I really feel 'Netbands' are a challenge, an obstacle to be overcome. | |
- Irrationally Fanatical Champion of Pegasus-mounted cavalry
- Proud member of Team Low Tier Beasting: I play CG as my main faction!
- Garland, TX 2006 Qualifier Champion
My trading thread: http://www.maxminis.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=19725 | |
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Jerry_Damage01
Sneak
145 Posts
| | 06/12/2006 12:46 AM |
| Well while I'm not as passionate as Kithmaker is about this, Qualifier season has left a bad taste in my mouth as well this year. KY I missed the cut coming in 5th and have figured out why due to a local player dropping and not playing one round at all. No to know if I would have come in 4th or even maybe 6th had that player played, but I do think it was a big thing in putting me at the second 4-2 in the tournament. Also preparing for the last few weeks for the GA qualifer, only to have things totally outside of DDM come up yesterday afternoon that prevented me from attending, has given me a bitter taste as well. I'd attribute the later to more of a burnout from playing so hard to get ready.
I've been playing minis games for a long long time. If you have fun with your friends playing at your FLGS, then that's why you should play. Qualifiers are for hardcore players. I will say that I personally think that some of the things on the National scene I don't care for at all and while the people do it out of passion for the game, the way it's done turns me off to it. The Qualifiers come around once a year for 2 months and then the rest of the year it's back to what you were doing before, playing for fun.
From your post you seem to enjoy your local scene and don't like the national scene at all. I can definately see where you're coming from on that. Out of the 5 years I've been playing games, I've been to hundreds of tournaments, but only 2 big competitive tournaments. I love playing the local guys and love the local scene. Every once in awhile I want to go out and see how I hold up against the big boys. I've learned that I can beat anyone and anyone can beat me. There is NEVER an auto win. You can sit down with a guy who's supposed to beat you 10 times outta 10 and this might be the day you pull off the upset. It could be the time that your band that's defeated his band everytime you playtested it, finally loses it's unloseable matchup.
The point to all this rambling is that Qualifiers are almost done now. Another 2 weeks and it'll all be over with. If you have fun with your local scene, play on it. Go hang out every Saturday with your friends and play the game for fun like you did before the Qualifiers started. Realize that there's more guys that play for fun, than there are that played to Qualify. | |
Champion of the Aspect of Damage
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Lead Moderator
LCS
Underboss
1867 Posts
| | 06/12/2006 1:06 AM |
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I realize that it can be very frustrating when you lose, and everyone needs to let off a little steam now and then. Hopefully there are plenty of things about DDM that will keep you playing the game, win or lose.
The following are my opinions, which hopefully no-one will take personally:
1) If there were enough spots available for everyone who "deserved" to play in Nationals, we wouldn't have or need qualifiers. The number of people who qualify at these tournaments are only a small fraction of the people who play at that level of skill, and the vast majority don't get the chance to try to qualify at all. The number of people who fail to qualify "because of other players who have already qualified" is insignificant compared to the total number of players of equivalent skill that don't qualify either.
2) Each qualifier should be evaluated independently of all the others. Just because a qualifier in a particular location occurs later in the schedule than another qualifier doesn't mean that the players at that later qualifier deserve the qualifying spots more than players are earlier qualifiers.
SneakyJoeKDB brought up Drakengi's 5th place finish at Idaho, where an already qualified player (Gnolaum) came in second and ended up in one of the qualifying spots. Why does Drakengi "deserve" to qualify instead of the 5th place player in the Alberta qualifier where Gnolaum also qualified?
I also don't like the idea of slots passing down at later qualifiers for the same reason. I do like the idea of those unused slots being given to players who participate in the grinder at GenCon.
If we want to be fair about it, any restriction on playing in multiple events should apply to _all_ players, not just those who who have previously qualified. You get one shot at qualifying (or two, if you play in the grinder) and the top prize, but you can choose when and where you want to try. I don't particularly like this idea, but if we are going to deny some players the experience of playing in multiple qualifiers and the chance to try again for the top prize, it's only fair that all players have to play by the same rules.
(( as an aside, if Gnolaum had not been allowed to participate in the Idaho qualifier, it's likely that the other person who drove down from Canada with him would not have made the trip by himself, and we would just have a different player --who earned a spot at the ID qualifier-- who wasn't able to qualify ))
3) Qualifiers shouldn't be just another tournament playing all the same people you normally play. The chance to play many different people is one of the best things about playing in a qualifier, and is as close to playing at Nationals as some people will ever get. It's a selfish perspective to think that "I have a better chance to go to GenCon if good players from other areas don't show up" and deny the other players who most likely won't qualify the chance to play against some of the better players that would be playing in the championship and they would not have the chance to play otherwise. From the perspective of an "invader", what better way to get the chance to play lots of new people than to go to a non-local qualifier?
Likewise, the locals who choose not to go to a qualifier or any other tournament because "it's going to be too hard" are only hurting themselves. All the people in AZ who didn't show up because of the perceived threat from Southern California lost out on both the chance to qualify and the chance for experience from playing some good players that they don't get the chance to face in an everyday tournament.
People have to make the decision of whether or not to go to a qualifier themselves, but we need to do all we can to encourage people of all skill levels to attend these types of events. It's true that they might not have a good chance of winning, and there's always the possibility that they might not even win a single match, but ultimately the experience is far more important than the outcome of one particular day's games.
If the only time the game is fun for someone is if they win, then that person needs to re-evaluate why they are playing DDM at all. Yes, winning a qualifier is definitely more fun than almost qualifying or losing a lot of matches, but how well a person handles their losses says more about their character than winning does.
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| Duke of Spoils
greyhaze
Warlord
5841 Posts
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