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Herald of Winter
Rav950
Warrior
340 Posts
    
 | | 06/12/2006 5:52 PM |
| Let me preface this by saying that I think Shoe has done an excellent job with what he has had to work with. There are inherent problems with the game system, and having a 12+ month timeline before the current environment's issues can be addressed is not exactly comfortable.
I also am not a professional game designer, a particuarly high-DCI ranked player, or possessed of any other credentials that will lend particular support or authority to what I have to say. I've been in the game for a year, delved deep, had a lot of fun, and I'm in the process of selling out. I enjoy analyzing game mechanics, and this game certainly gave me a fair amount of material to work with. In the end, this is just my own views and not necessarily fact. Please weigh in with your own thoughts.
As a game idea, I like DDM Skirmish. A fast, furious game of D&D combat using a distilled D&D combat rules set. Its really cool laying all the pieces out on a battle mat and having them swing at each other.
Unfortunately, the game design has significant problems with the engine that drives it: the d20. The probability of a creature with a +X attack rating hitting a creature with a Y AC rating isn't as much of a problem as the number of other factors that either increase or decrease the *frequency* dice rolls, and the impact of luck in a game that is highly dependent on it. There are 4 fairly critical problems that I see in the present environment, and these problems are fairly evident when you review the environment since last year's nationals.
- Conceal/Blindsight: Conceal is a nifty ability, largely underutilized in the present environment due to the Blindsight ability present on both Marut and Helmed Horror. The second die roll to make a hit is aggravation to players trying to attack. However, this ability is usually a critical part of the same creature's defense... their AC is often quite low. Blindsight is a very significant countermeasure, and shouldn't be costed low. This is probably the least of the issues I see in the environment right now, but still noteworthy.
- Incorporeal: Forcing anything, friendly or otherwise, to make a 50/50 shot at damaging you is amazingly frustrating. The popularity of the Sacred Watcher was pretty easy to foretell. Reasonable attack bonus, a high AC and Incorporeal all equate to an amazing 18 point figure. There are very few ways of negating this die roll, and the existing countermeasures to it tend to be ineffective against the rest of the field. A rules adjustment to Turn Undead that prevents Undead creatures from rallying would be the best way to address this.
- Immunity to critical hits: Having a roll of 20 deal normal to no damage to your opponent frankly sucks. In a game that is largely based on luck of the roll, removing the amount that your one big break can gain you is a really unpleasant addition. I understand the reason why it exists in the D&D game... mostly for the flavor of the creature... but I think it sucks a lot out of the skirmish game. A reasonable counter would be a commander effect that increases to-hit and/or damage against creatures which are immune to critical hits.
- Fearless: This is the biggest problem in the existing environment, and there's no sign of it changing. No matter how tough your opponent is, there's always that chance they can roll that 1 and have their piece start bolting off the board. Everyone has had a game won or lost from critical morale saves. Not having to make that roll is a real clincher. Its what makes a Frenzied Berserker truely terrifying, a Multiple Horror band daunting, and a Marut band nigh-unbeatable without an opposing Marut (or a band that can hit Maruts reliably but is vulnerable to the rest of the field). This is the one save that everyone cares about, and removing it from being a factor is a major benefit. Its why Wardrummer is a popular support piece for CE. Its why commanders with less than a 4 rating typically don't show up unless they are supporting fearless pieces. Its something that has to be costed with extreme care, and removed when possible in favor of morale save bonuses. While anti-construct tech would be good to add, I'd like to see something that penalizes fearless on a whole.
Putting several of these roll count increase/reduce features onto a piece is essentially a formula for problems, and that's why we see these features dominating the environment. Viewing the partial spoiler for WOTDQ, it looks like we're now replacing Marut with Cadaver Collector... in essence, counter the stick with a bigger stick.
With a game based around odds and risks, the person who plays it safe needs much stronger deterrents for choosing the odds-beaters. Pieces like the Half-Orc paladin make a good model for this; the bigger they are, the harder they SHOULD fall. Make the chance that someone brings a CHEAP hate piece to the table so crippling that there are no auto-includes. | |
Thanks for the memories. :) | |
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Jenkiis
Skirmisher
44 Posts
| | 06/13/2006 2:50 AM |
| You bring up alot of good points, and I agree with most of them. I think you missed the vast discrepancies in attack number and armor class keeping smaller figs from being able to swarm larger foes. But I don't think the game is that far gone yet. (Yet being the operative word :) )
We haven't discussed anything, but I salute a fellow game critic. Bon-voyage. | |
Online Art Portfolio-http://benbrooks.lusagi.com
DevArt Page-http://wolfgangbrooks.deviantart.com | |
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True_Blue
Underboss
2386 Posts
| | 06/13/2006 6:12 AM |
| Nice write-up Rav, and a lot of those are very valuable points. I hated Morale at first, but the more and more I play, the more I like the fact that you cant always count on your units. You either accept it, or bring in other units that will help it out. But with fearless/constructs, you take that right out the window. And a lot of players sit there and think to themselves, why should I play the other units who have a chance to fail in that regard, when the others dont.. and are still Tier 1?
I think you discussed a lot of valid points and I really hope that the designers take them into account. | |
Champion of a Knight of Takhisis/Knight of Neraka | |
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orcmonk220
Underboss
1608 Posts
| | 06/13/2006 6:38 AM |
| I'd have to say I agree totally. Incorporeal is, perhaps, my biggest gripe with the game around now. The second a cursed spirit or sacred watcher shows, then I always encounter roll after roll of 3's and 9's. It's really depressing. I also think that the sheer power of constructs at the moment is very, very horrible. It's the reason chaotic factions are falling. The Lawful faction's high-AC constructs (which, lets face it, you see in every other warband nowadays) make it nigh on impossible for Chaos (especially CG) to win. The attack bonuses are too low. Maybe not so much CE, but definately CG.
Anyway, just my $0.02 | |
My Trading Thread | |
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orcmonk220
Underboss
1608 Posts
| | 06/13/2006 6:38 AM |
| I'd have to say I agree totally. Incorporeal is, perhaps, my biggest gripe with the game around now. The second a cursed spirit or sacred watcher shows, then I always encounter roll after roll of 3's and 9's. It's really depressing. I also think that the sheer power of constructs at the moment is very, very horrible. It's the reason chaotic factions are falling. The Lawful faction's high-AC constructs (which, lets face it, you see in every other warband nowadays) make it nigh on impossible for Chaos (especially CG) to win. The attack bonuses are too low. Maybe not so much CE, but definately CG.
Anyway, just my $0.02 |
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My Trading Thread | |
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nedleeds
Warrior
240 Posts
| | 06/13/2006 9:00 AM |
| Without Incorporeal a Marut band would hardly have to roll at all. Seems to me the two best bands today fall into two catagories, ones that don't have to roll (GAS doesn't have to roll to attack, all the Fearless units don't roll morale, Marut misses on a 1 in most cases and doesn't roll morale), and ones that make the opponent roll (3-4 DC, SW). In short if your band doesn't eliminate one of the areas of chance you outline above, or add it's own luck factor you are really putting yourself at a disadvantage. I had Death Slaads fail 8 of 9 MCs at +15. I rolled fine as a whole but my low rolls happen to fall on those crucial chucks.
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Champion of Zarak - Evil Half-Orc Assassin | |
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Low Key
Underboss
1231 Posts
| | 06/13/2006 9:11 AM |
| Immune to critical hits, Incorporeal, Fearless, Blindsight.
This is why I'm starting to really dislike constructs and undead the Lawful factions field. I definately agree with all the points in the original post. The game definately needs some hate against constructs and undead, or we'll be swimming in Maruts, Sacred Watchers, Cadaver Collectors and Helmed Horrors for months... | |
Champion of the Sarrukh | |
| The Defenestrator
AesophDarkfable
Warlord
5628 Posts
| | 06/13/2006 9:40 AM |
| But there are ways to address these. Lets take Sacred Watchers for instance. The new Tordek rocks, and has ghost touch. He will eat through watchers for breakfast adn cleave all day long. If he shows up alot (which I think he will) Watchers start to drop off.
If something drives the Marut/coautl down some or comes out construct hateful, then blindsight goes away mostly and conceal is super strong again (and even with Blindsight lots of Duergar Champs show up, they've not dominated, but theyve done well taking alot of 5-8s and a few top 4 spots this qual) | |
Im out- find me on Hordelings if you want to chat. | |
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bshugg
Underboss
1833 Posts
| | 06/13/2006 10:33 AM |
| I have been a student of the competitive formats since the game came out. I agree with you that die rolls have an impact on the game, and too many positive or negative rolls can give a person a bad feeling. I don't agree that the abilities above have a negative impact on the game. The abilities are fine if costed correctly. If not then they become overwhelming.
I agree that some of the figures mentioned above push the breaking point of what is fairly costed. But since they are not overwhelming the format, I prefer to use the wait and see approach. The previous figures that pushed the edge are not getting used that much (large Silver, CE hitters, greycloaks)
There are other quicker fixes that are available. New maps have a shorter lead time then figure sets and could fix some of the problems. A temple of terror that removed fearless, A ghost realm that has areas that make everything incorporeal (and thus ignores all incorporeal), etc. There are faster fixes than figures. | |
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johnny.quest
Underboss
1386 Posts
| | 06/13/2006 11:23 AM |
| | I really enjoy the game, and I don't see a problem with the way it is evolving. However, I find analyses like this very interesting, so I'm glad you posted it, Rav. | | | |
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jedijon
Sergeant
474 Posts
| | 06/13/2006 12:50 PM |
| I really appreciate you posting your views on DDM--especially uncommon sorts such as these.
For further perspective, I know your qualifications include at least an amateur game design, as you're trying to improve on some existing games; and for me that adds a lot of weight to what you've said.
However, I'm not sure if you're arguing that we need more certainty or less--more die rolls or fewer. In your opening paragraph you sum up that die rolls are huge and the amount of times you roll is an additional factor in the game. Point taken. From a purely essay oriented perspective, your next topic--the blindsight portion--doesn't come up again until your conclusion; where you state that cheap "hate" pieces would open up the game more. Since you've been in the game for a year, you know that there's been 3 distinct paradigms in that period, CE, LE, finally LG. I'd posit that it would be an EXCEPTIONAL feat to have more than 1 faction at the top at any given time, that's why they call it the top. Seems to me that this progression (also top warbands have NEVER had a "hate" piece in them to date) indicates the game is moving heathily forward at a slow and measurable pace. Additionally, the last wave of warbands is still fairly competative again the current--so there's evidence against excessive powercreep.
Now, back to essay mode--just so I understand you. Most of your time is spent discussing abilities that either let you roll the dice more (or less) than if they weren't present. Since you spent most of your discourse in this direction, I'll assume that's your main point, rather than what shows up in the conclusion paragraph. Die rolls take the game in one of two directions--more, and you've got more time (and you pointed out the possible frustration of getting a 1--or the incredibly rare event of having your lucky 20 nerfed by "immune crit") involved. I'll label this characteristic--"going the way of the drider". You don't like, conceal and incorporeal abilities from this category. On the other hand, you can roll a dice less, "ala Chess" is what we'll call this. In this category you don't like blindsight(fight) or fearless.
Here's the point where I step in and say what I like in a game--"ala Chess". At the same time, I'm in no way bothered by incorporeal provided the game isn't dominated by these creatures. AND, when it is, that's the time to introduce a blindsight figure at the sweetspot of costs to combat them. That's progress in a game that is constantly releasing content. I think the best way we could streamline the game would be more special abilities without saves (since spells w/o them would never fly)--but I'm still not sure if that's in agreement or disagreement with your critique. A final note on this age old discussion on whether games should be more randomn or less randomn is that games which incorporate both (A) a randomizing agent in addition to the player, and (B) a tournament structure have all undergone recent reductions in (A). . . Warhammer 40K (addition on invuln. saves, simpliciations in logic/game steps ad nauseum), DDM (elimination of tiles, fearless's commonality is probably happenstance), Confrontation 3 (deck preconstruction/attk rolls) so on and so forth. | |
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Jesster
Sneak
94 Posts
| | 06/13/2006 6:17 PM |
| I think the problems Rav describes are just part of an overall larger problem.
Immunities.
Immunities have just gotten way out of hand in this game.
Immunity to Critical Hits, Sneak Attacks, Fear, Sleep, Paralysis, Stun, Poison... That's far too many immunities to give to a single figure much less an entire class of creatures. But that's exactly what we have with Constructs and Undead. Take away the fearlessness and we've got three more creature types with all the rest of those immunities (Plant, Elemental, Ooze).
Then the designers go and give some of those creatures even MORE immunities. Blindsight is effectively just immunity to conceal. Then there's SR-All, Helmed Horror's spell immunities, etc. Why? Why completely obliterate entire styles of play from the metagame by making so many dominant pieces that are flat-out immune to these otherwise interesting abilites?
Sneak Attacks, Poison, Sleep, Paralysis, Stun... I'd love to build a warband that incorporates some of these effects as more than just an afterthought. But its just not possible with so many figs like the Horrors, Maruts, Sacred Watchers and Chraals dominating the metagame. And then, the one competative faction that doesn't rely on creatures with lots of immunities has the Wardrummer, which makes sure that most of those abilities are rarely going to work even when the target isn't immune.
I've been playing the game competatively for a few years now, and the dominant warbands have changed compositions several times, but the general theme has stayed the same. Its always some combination of tough figs that run up and beat on each other in melee (with varying degrees of tech pieces for support). I've grown really tired of it. Every time something differnet tries to break into the competative environment (Beholders, Gauths, etc.). It just gets quickly stomped out by figs that are flat out immune to their abilities. About the only fringe warband style that's managed to cling to some degree of success is the Archmage band. But now there's a set coming with a new SR-all piece, a piece with counterspell, and a piece that disables all spell casting within range 6. Great!
I really don't know what the solution is to this problem. I'd like to see most of those immunities removed from the definition of the various creature types. I'd much rather see occasional minis having immunity to a couple different effects, rather than the whole set of immunities granted wholesale to entire categories of minis. However, I know that's not going to happen, since it contradicts the flavor of those creature types in the RPG.
-=The Jesster: Gatchaba Goose=- | |
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neilasaurus
Sneak
134 Posts
| | 06/13/2006 6:45 PM |
| The thing that aggravates me the most about incorporeal in this game is that this game ignores all the balancing factors against incorporeal that are in the RPG. A 1ST LEVEL wizard or sorceror can cast a spell that automatically suceeds against incorporeal in the RPG. There are many figures that have magic missile in DDM, except that it is missing its works against incorporeal feature. Also turn undead is an area effect in the RPG.
And on top of all this, the most cost efficient incorporeal undead is in LG! Wasn't some figure banned for supposedly having out of faction abilites? And the sacred watcher is often paired with a Marut! The Marut's only goal is to destroy those who unnaturally extend their life. The sacred watcher is "Undying" the very thing a Marut would seek to destroy. Whereas a lich is by every rule not alive, therefore the robotic Marut would have no interest in any real undead.
And then to add to the madness, the new figure with ghost touch is also in LG? | |
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True_Blue
Underboss
2386 Posts
| | 06/13/2006 7:29 PM |
| Another problem I've seen is that they try to make counters to certain things, and then the peices end up not being viable for competitive use. You cant just make a hate peice and expect it to be used. It needs to be a pretty decent peice in its own right, but its abilities combine to maybe hurt a certain type of peice. In this respect, it'll be used and can actually change the metagame.
I agree wholeheartily that there is too much of auto things running around. Too many peices that are taking the dice out of the equation. I dont mind a few things, but there needs to be more detrimental stuff to it. In too many ways, its so much better for you to automatically use the peices that take the dice out. It shouldnt always be clear cut. There should be good and bad for every decision, and I'm not seeing that.
Fearless/Constructs have gotten out of hand in my opinion. There's too much of it just being dominent. They can definetely be beaten, but usually its not feasible to make a band go after them, because you can get swatted by everything else pretty easily.
The SW has just started to run rampant all over the scene now. You are starting to see the auto includes in a LG band be the Couatl and SW.
While you still see variety in the metagame, I do think a few of these issues really cut down on what we could actually see if they would just fix a few things. There need to be more viable counters to some of the effects we are seeing in the game.
Obviously just because you make a competitive counter to a certain ability, it doesnt mean it will automatically be used and will cut down on the number of units using that ability. But at least ppl could use the counter if they wanted, and they just wouldnt get bulled over by anything else. | |
Champion of a Knight of Takhisis/Knight of Neraka | |
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Anthronole
Skirmisher
20 Posts
| | 06/13/2006 9:43 PM |
| I agree with all of your points Rav.
As a new DDM gamer, I love it in a casual setting. I haven't played in a tournament yet (I just started getting DD minis in January) and given the current state of how the cookie-cutter warbands are dominating makes it difficult for me to want to go, spend my time and money, play the warband I WANT to play, only to get taken out back by the woodshed and spanked! On another post here, I mentioned taking an already existing LE Quad band and modifying it to play in the upcoming Orlando tournament - I don't expect to place in the top 4 based on my skill level (I'm still learning), but beyond that my point is I don't really want to run that warband. However, I feel that if I wanted to have the best chance to hit the top 4 and qualify for GenCon then I have to step in line, conform, and run a LG Couatl/SW or LG/LE construct-based band.
Costing the Marut and SW so low was, in my non-professional (humble) opinion, a big mistake. And I just saw the Cadaver Collector's stats for the first time tonight and as soon as I saw them, I said to my thirteen year old daughter "Uh oh. There's the next construct titan that is going to take over the game" followed by a heavy sigh.
I respect the opinions of those who feel there is nothing wrong with the domination by a few types or pieces and argue that this is merely an natural evolution to the game.
However, I agree with the others on here who argue that countering these immunities/abilities, etc. that either add or remove the dice from the game, whether by new creatures with new abilities, spells, etc. or by maps or rules changes, would completly make the thought of playing a non-cookie-cutter (ie unique/new/individual) band not only fun at a tournament but also competetive. Thus increasing the diversity of warbands seen at qualifiers and placing in the top 4. Currently there is very little individuality.
In Jesse's analysis of the tournament placings so far, his percentiles of qualifying factions and winning factions makes it blatantly obvious of the serious problems in the Chaotic bands.
I don't even pretend to know what the solution is, however it doesn't take much to notice it exists. I compare it to an evolutionary arms race: the gazelle gets a little faster, so the cheetah gets a little faster (and the cycle repeats itself for all time). Also known as the "Red Queen Hypothesis" from Alice in Wonderland..."we have to keep running just to keep up!"
On a side note, reading your analysis of the game has really helped me learn rather quickly. I spent many a night reading your thoughts and comments over at Merric's site as you have always had some of the most well thought of input to the game. I hope that that portion of your love for DDM doesn't go away and you'll at least continue to occasionally drop by here and there to offer some input. Thanks for helping me get my feet on the ground in DDM and I wish you the best in your future endeavors. | |
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IanB
Commander
3112 Posts
| | 06/13/2006 9:55 PM |
| For those of you complaining about the prevalence of constructs like the marut and helmed horror, have you noticed the relative lack of HHs lately? Have you noticed the Aspect of Kord replacing Marut in many LG builds?
How does this change your analysis, knowing that HHs seem to be on a downturn and that the marut is not necessarily the best choice in couatl-titan builds? | |
Anson on WotC boards | |
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Anthronole
Skirmisher
20 Posts
| | 06/14/2006 8:52 PM |
| IanB -
I can't speak for anyone else on here, but my own analysis remains "cautiously optimistic" about the future of the game.
On a personal level, I'm more of a fan of the Chaotic factions (particularly Chaotic Evil) and I don't feel that a player can field a Chaotic warband capable of countering the construct abilites reliably. In my opinion, that's why there seems to be very little creativity at the top 4 in the qualifiers. Then again, that could be because of my lack of knowledge to the ways many other pieces are utilized, but I'm getting there.
I think it'd be nice to have several of the regular tournament players who are more experienced to start a thread or put it in the tools/resource link that talks a little about "counter measures". Reading over the Cadaver Collector's thread here, some people did just that by agruing for the Arcanix Guard as well as the Duergar Champion (huh...I just noticed both are Lawful pieces)as decent pieces to stand up against it.
If there was some way for newer players, or heck even any players, to get some information on how to best counter some things, then I think that some of the complaining would settle down. Perhaps not, but just a thought.
As a new player, I'm not willing to throw in the towel and give up just because of constructs...and I probably never will. I've had waaay too much fun playing this game in a casual setting and I'm just starting to get into the tournament scene. I'll probably end up playing a construct band, albeit more out of playtesting, in at least one casual setting anyways.
My only TRUE complaint is, if you're going to give the Lawful factions so many well costed and dominating constructs, how about throwing the Chaotic factions a bone and give them some golems. Clay Golem is waaay long gone and Flesh (only Chaotic faction it can enter is CE) is nowhere near the dominating level as Marut or Cadaver Collector. Elementals are ok, but they don't have enough immunities compared to a construct and Couatl can counter many of the elementals.
In regard to seeing more Aspect of Kord, a little less Marut (he's still mingling in more often than not), and fewer Helmed Horrors showing up, I think it's a good thing. But I don't think that the Cadaver Collector is going to be removed as quickly from tournament bands as those Helmed Horrors, especially not with two +22 attacks for 30 damage each. Spend 90 or 135 points on 2 or 3 Helmed Horrors or 103 on one Cadaver Collector that can do so much more and I think many will choose the latter over the former. With LE having a commander like Snig who can include so many minions is going to play a strong role in the Collector hanging around. Bonded Fire Summoner seems to be the next best thing to Snig, but he's in a Chaotic faction and his Elementals don't have all the buttons and lights a construct has and again can simply be countered with Couatl.
Lawful factions have all the toys...the Chaotics are stuck trying to play catch up.
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True_Blue
Underboss
2386 Posts
| | 06/15/2006 2:34 AM |
| Nice insight Anthronole. Definetely a well written and thought out peice. I agree with pretty much all of it.
I realize that it might be LG's time in the sun, or whatever you want to call it. And I know CE has done well before, and CG has done well with the FB bands. But it'd be so nice to see a way for the Chaotic factions to have some construct/fearless hate to kind of deal with some of this. LG got the Couatl to deal with not enough damage output (snakes swiftness) and elemental damage. 10 protection is just killer. 5 would have been so much better in my opinion, but what is done is done.
If you arent going to give some hate to the Chaotic factions, then let them have some of the fun also and give them some constructs. I'd rather this not happen, just because I dont want constructs to be the dominant kind of band. I dont like the fact of ppl being able to take the dice out of the equation so easily, and still have a killer band. I also dont like the opposite where the dice matter so much, ie the Sacred Watcher. That 50% is just killer. I just hope to see the designers find a middle ground.
Maybe this is all too much to ask, I dont know. But I'm hoping we see more coming in the next set or two to make the Chaotic factions be on par. | |
Champion of a Knight of Takhisis/Knight of Neraka | |
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Korhal_IV
Sergeant
852 Posts
| | 06/15/2006 2:26 PM |
| Want to know what I'd like to see?
Foe of the Undying (+2 attack, +10 damage vs. Fearless opponents)
That's an ability we need on a 45-point CG heavy hitter, one who already swings for +12/+7 (15 magic), has 85 HP, and has a level higher than six. Higher than six, goddamnit! I liked the inclusion of Bold for LG; it's a flavorful ability that can be overcome with better play, but the current plethora of fearless critters is just not fun. | |
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greyhaze
Warlord
7737 Posts
| | 06/15/2006 2:46 PM |
| I remember not so long ago when the lawfuls couldn't compete with the speed and damage output of the chaotics. I'm glad they're getting their time in the limelight, but I'd like there to be a less bias towards using constructs. Other than the SW, I don't really see undead being used that extremely.
And it is ironic that the two incorporeal undead that get used the most are CE and LG, while LE who has the majority gets all of the lame incorporeals.
the d20 itself is inherent to this game, it's its system. Changing that one factor changes the game entirely. But it does suck alot sometimes. | |
Greyhaze's DDM Spoilers
Champion of a Medium Dog & then a Darkenbeast , Raistlin Majere, Nightmare WDQ25/60, Warduke WD60/60,
Anti-Champion of Guns, "Knight of Bugbears", and Joke Champion of Venger.
Called Shots: Frost Giant in Dangerous Delves. | |
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Vash
Underboss
1995 Posts
| | 06/15/2006 3:09 PM |
| When I use to play, and if my group ever plays again. We usually do without the morale checks, we would only have the morale checks if you would lose all of your commanders then having your remaining units make the save. Yes it makes some pieces worthless, and can result in 2 hour games. But hey its casual, its fun, and we enjoy the factor of battling to the bitter end.
Not worrying about morale checks makes some of those titans far more intimidating but countaerable (kill the commander and hope to route the titan), and it would also make those 60hp figs a bit more viable. | |
Champion of the Alhoon and my called shot for Unhallowed
Blood War Called Shot: Phoenix
Trade withe me! | |
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zhanteel
Sneak
173 Posts
| | 06/15/2006 4:47 PM |
| As a very casual player, I can't say that I've found the immunity/incorporial issues to be a problem. However, I'm not willing to say they aren't problems, when you're looking at tournament scenes.
I will say that I'm glad those abilities exist, and I'll tell you why. As others have said, skirmish is a boiled down rpg fight. I would be more upset if these items didn't exist, because then you're changing the base characteristics of those creature types. Constructs are fearless and immune to crit hits. It can really be irritating, but it's also irrititating in an rpg setting, so this tells me that R&D has done it's job well.
I do have a question regarding incorporial. Someone made a comment about how this could be beaten with a spell, and gave the impression that this was not true in skirmish. Is that correct? Maybe I haven't looked at the rules closely enough, but I thought you only had to make an incorp check for an attack. If that's not the case, then I can see room for complaint here. | |
"Call no man happy til he is dead"
-E Cobham Brewer | |
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Anthronole
Skirmisher
20 Posts
| | 06/15/2006 6:27 PM |
| quote:
Someone made a comment about how this could be beaten with a spell, and gave the impression that this was not true in skirmish. Is that correct?
According to the latest DDM rules regarding Incorpreal: "Any time this creature would be damaged by an attack, spell or special ability, the acting player rolls 1d20. On a result of 11 or higher, this creature takes damage normally. Otherwise, it takes no damage (and the hit counts as a miss if the roll is made for an attack)."
But I agree with you Zhanteel, I also prefer to have conceal and incorpreal in the skirmish game. I also agree with your point regarding constructs having blindsight and being immune to critical hits. I've played for many moons the old DnD pen and paper version, so I've had my fair share of run-ins with constructs in an RPG setting.
Conceal in particular is the only thing the Drow DDM have going for them. They don't seem to be the powerful threat in the skirmish game that they are in the RPG setting. Low attack bonuses and low damage output in melee I would expect. However, I would also expect the drow to have larger than average bonus damage to sneak attacks and deadlier poisons. Perhaps giving them a well costed fighter/rogue in the 30 point range with "Crippling Strike" and "Darkness" (causing blindness - lower attack & AC of enemy)once or twice per skirmish would be nice.
I played one skirmish as LG and couldn't hit a Duergar Champion with the Sand Giant to save my life...and that was AFTER using the giant's ability to reduce AC. Yeah it was frustrating, but overall it turned out to be a good match and I don't regret going through that.
On the other hand, I've used the Sacred Watcher and I know how well the incorpreal works for it. So I, like probably many people on here, have had the experience with Conceal & Incorpreal go both ways and don't mind it.
If somone wanted a counter to Conceal & Incorpreal, then I would offer one possible counter in an upcoming set: "True Seeing[](touch; target creature gains Blindsight)", that way it 1) isn't an automatic include to anyone except constructs or other creatures who have it inherently and 2) it will force the DDM player to make a choice in warband construction (ie choose a spellcaster to gain Blindsight and loose out on another hitter or tech piece). Though point 2 only works if the spell caster costs enough to make that decision so.
I do mind the constructs not having many drawbacks, if any at all. "Requires Commander" would have been nice for Marut and Cadaver Collector, perhaps even Helmed Horror, but what's done is done and I'm not worried about that.
Who knows, the Dwarf Artificer's "Inflict Moderate Damage" and "Rust Construct" should start making more appearances. It'd be nice to give CE something similar to work with.
Thanks for the compliment True_Blue. | |
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warchanter
Sergeant
394 Posts
Italy
| | 06/15/2006 7:50 PM |
| | Well, to be honest, ddm SKIRMISH game is 50% warband/skill and 50% sheer luck. Another problem is that the new maps (but maps in general) don't favor ranged bands. If you ever played a double map (two maps joined, that is) you know what I mean: ranged bands become suddently much more dangerous, since they can use their primary quality to its fullest. Of course that would make tournament games tooo long and perhaps boring, so it's a feature we'll definitely never see. | |
Nexxstalker on WoTC Boards | |
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Slade7170
Sneak
123 Posts
| | 06/15/2006 8:16 PM |
| I would call it 50% skill, 30% warband and 20% sheer luck (either your good luck or your opponents bad luck).
Double maps almost always have very obscured lines of sight, so I do not see ranged getting that much of a boost.
At our next unsanctioned event (we run one of each a month) I am thinking of giving every player a token that they can cash in once per tournament (not per game). The token either lets them reroll a natural 1, or requires their opponent to reroll a natural 20.
I would like to level out the luck factor a little..and since it is unsanctioned..well, will see how it goes.
Slade7170
quote:
Originally posted by warchanter
Well, to be honest, ddm SKIRMISH game is 50% warband/skill and 50% sheer luck. Another problem is that the new maps (but maps in general) don't favor ranged bands. If you ever played a double map (two maps joined, that is) you know what I mean: ranged bands become suddently much more dangerous, since they can use their primary quality to its fullest. Of course that would make tournament games tooo long and perhaps boring, so it's a feature we'll definitely never see.
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ruhk69
Warrior
205 Posts
| | 06/15/2006 8:29 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by IanB
For those of you complaining about the prevalence of constructs like the marut and helmed horror, have you noticed the relative lack of HHs lately? Have you noticed the Aspect of Kord replacing Marut in many LG builds?
How does this change your analysis, knowing that HHs seem to be on a downturn and that the marut is not necessarily the best choice in couatl-titan builds?
You make a good point. And you might be helping to support a thought I have. I think the makers of the game need to have some forsight when creating pieces and think about possible combinations that will be used. The Marut is potent, but I would never use it in a band without a Couatl. It has low HP vs the cost and only 1 attack. The Marut is so popular now due to the pairing with the Couatl. Same with Kord. The Couatl is also why the HH is not used as much. The Couatl, paired with the Marut nerfs the HHs dramatically.
In short, no single piece is necessarily the issue. It's the ability to combine pieces that make an almost invincible band that has negatively effected the game.
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The Waterboy. Proud member of Team Amish. | |
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Korvax
Warrior
263 Posts
| | 06/15/2006 8:58 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by ruhk69
It's the ability to combine pieces that make an almost invincible band that has negatively effected the game.
And here's where the Qualifiers have proven that no such band really exist. How many quals have been completed now? How many of these have been won by Couatl-Marut?
IMHO, there are no invincible bands in the current state of the game. | |
Champion of the Phoenix!
"By the leaking snot of Skurmsh[!]" - Teflon Jeff | |
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ruhk69
Warrior
205 Posts
| | 06/15/2006 9:12 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Korvax
quote:
Originally posted by ruhk69
It's the ability to combine pieces that make an almost invincible band that has negatively effected the game.
And here's where the Qualifiers have proven that no such band really exist. How many quals have been completed now? How many of these have been won by Couatl-Marut?
IMHO, there are no invincible bands in the current state of the game.
Try not to take me literally. I know nothing is truly invincible. There is a hate band for anything out there and there are some other bands that are competitive with most matchups. My point is that the Couatl/titan matchup really nerfs certain pieces like the HH and the Chraal. And since there are so many being played at tourneys, you are not likely to see the HH or Chraal played. There were 26 Couatl/ Titan (Kord or Marut) bands that qualified so far. There were other Couatl bands without titans that qualified. When a piece like the Couatl becomes this popular, it takes away from SOME of the diversity of the game. The Sacred Watchers are like this to some degree too. Just my 2 cents. | |
The Waterboy. Proud member of Team Amish. | |
| Hero of Skirmish
doubtofbuddha
Commander
3371 Posts
| | 06/15/2006 9:59 PM |
| | Every competitive warband keeps out other pieces by its sheer existance. Couatl/Marut keeps out the elemental damage pieces, yes, but at each stage of the game there have been popular pieces that have been restricted in utility due to the existence of some competitive piece or another. | |
I am not gone. | |
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