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swoper
Sneak
54 Posts
    
 | | 06/13/2006 2:32 PM |
| With the huge range of pieces to choose from, and the rock-paper-scissors mentality, does the warband that you choose matter as much as how good you are with it?
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I've got a lot of Minis, okay, so lets just leave it at that... | |
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Pegasus Knight
Sergeant
896 Posts
| | 06/13/2006 2:36 PM |
| It does matter, and 'netbanding' plays a big part of it. Knowing about the dominance of Marut-Couatl let me practice a lot of 'theory games' against it at home, and I eventually figured out how to deal with it without using a hate-band.
The metagame will always matter to some degree. Someone will find a strong, easy to use build that crushes most opponents, and others will latch on to it. This sort of thing just keeps the 'roguebanders' in business, though. | |
- Irrationally Fanatical Champion of Pegasus-mounted cavalry
- Proud member of Team Low Tier Beasting: I play CG as my main faction!
- Garland, TX 2006 Qualifier Champion
My trading thread: http://www.maxminis.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=19725 | |
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SneakyJoeKDB
Sergeant
593 Posts
Utah
| | 06/13/2006 2:45 PM |
| I agree with Pegasus Knight. I built a CG band that could beat Marut+Couatl most of the time, while staying competitive against all other bands. There seems to still be dominant band choices and reviewing the qualifier reports you can see LG Marut+Couatl has made top 4 in almost every qualifier.
Skill does play an important role, but band choice is right along with it. | |
"Like a thief in the Night"
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Jerry_Damage01
Sneak
146 Posts
| | 06/13/2006 3:51 PM |
| | Your warband choice should be one that you know how to pilot. Anything can win right now. Look at this past weekend, a Drizzt warband made it in. People can netband all they want to but it doesn't matter if they dont' have the skill to play it. It basically boils down to this, "There are no top tier warbands, only top tier players." | |
Champion of the Aspect of Damage
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theplumber
Sneak
72 Posts
| | 06/13/2006 4:04 PM |
| id disagree with that statement, but i do think the quality of a player has just as much to do with his success as his warband.
i think the metagame is important still because you need to know what will test your newly created warband. will it be able to hit high ac's? will it be able to withstand a large amount of damage? will facing one specific piece put it at a huge disadvantage? these are all things you really need to know about your band and if you dont know what types of tests you will face you cant be sure to accurately judge this.
but as for anti-warband building, i dont think the metagame is very useful because it would be rare to see the same opposing band enough to put you into the finals. | |
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| Duke of Spoils
greyhaze
Warlord
7737 Posts
| | 06/13/2006 4:14 PM |
| 1. Skill
2. Warband
3. Dice
If you suck at playing, no warband will save you. The warband you choose minimizes the risk as they've been proven or disproven or match against and anaylized and practiced with. The dice can screw you or be your best friend. | |
Greyhaze's DDM Spoilers
Champion of a Medium Dog & then a Darkenbeast , Raistlin Majere, Nightmare WDQ25/60, Warduke WD60/60,
Anti-Champion of Guns, "Knight of Bugbears", and Joke Champion of Venger.
Called Shots: Frost Giant in Dangerous Delves. | |
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Pegasus Knight
Sergeant
896 Posts
| | 06/13/2006 4:19 PM |
| There are Top Tier Warbands, there absolutely are. Look at how "Dark Horror/Dark Flames" did for a while and how well Marut-Couatl is doing today. You can basically turn your brain off while running these bands and still do fairly well against most opponents. Conversely, running something like that CG "grab bag" band a few weeks back definitely requires some forethought and heavy planning as you play.
Of course, a really good player will slap a netbander around silly if they're just blindly repeating what they saw a champion do. The warband really does matter, but players also have a major role in it. A good player with an unusual band is going to do very well, but a good player running an established band and knowing why it's a good band will do fine too; look at the Qualifier statistics this year and you'll see.
Warbands factor in, they just don't completely eclipse player skill. | |
- Irrationally Fanatical Champion of Pegasus-mounted cavalry
- Proud member of Team Low Tier Beasting: I play CG as my main faction!
- Garland, TX 2006 Qualifier Champion
My trading thread: http://www.maxminis.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=19725 | |
| 
Vrecknidj
Warlord
10493 Posts
United States
| | 06/13/2006 4:54 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Jerry_Damage01
Your warband choice should be one that you know how to pilot. Anything can win right now. Look at this past weekend, a Drizzt warband made it in. People can netband all they want to but it doesn't matter if they dont' have the skill to play it. It basically boils down to this, "There are no top tier warbands, only top tier players."
No offense or disrespect intended to anyone, especially not to Slartibart, but, the fact that Drizzt qualified in one qualifier doesn't mean that anything can win right now. Some bands will qualify at an event because that player is good, the band is good enough, and the matchups are favorable on the way up to the top 4.
The metagame matters as much now as it ever has. Thanks to the Helmed Horror, we have Marut/Couatl to take care of them. Thanks to the Marut, we have Kord to take care of him. Thanks to Kord and Marut we have both Arcane Ballista bands and GAS bands. Thanks to GAS we have yet more Helmed Horrors. In the meantime, there are all kinds of CE and CG bands that remain viable.
But, the meta drives what shows up at tournaments. I noticed that there were no Sacred Watchers in the top 4 bands at Niles. This doesn't mean there weren't a ton of Sacred Watchers there anyway.
Thanks to them, Turn Undead means something again, and the Zakya Rakshasa absolutely has to be considered in LE builds.
If you've got even a decent idea of what you'll face at an event, you stand a much better chance to do well.
Dave | |
Knowledge Arcana editor issues 5-9, Phoenix Lore Magazine editor, assistant editor for Rite Publishing;
My Trade Thread and My Reference Thread; Winner of WBC IV, IX and XIII; Rule #0: bshugg is always right! | |
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jacksonm
Warlord
5560 Posts
River City
| | 06/13/2006 5:07 PM |
| What is the Meta Game?
Seems like it changes again with every set. Each mini that attains some dominance ends up countered by something from the next set.
And then new dominant minis appear based on that from the new set, or old favorites given new life. Almost if they are planning it that way.... | | | |
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Dagni
Sergeant
870 Posts
| | 06/13/2006 5:47 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by swoper
With the huge range of pieces to choose from, and the rock-paper-scissors mentality, does the warband that you choose matter as much as how good you are with it?
Yes. I had great success in two qualifiers because I used a couple of great bands, even though I had less than 10 games practice with each band.
How good you are with a band matters a great deal as well, of course. Normally, I advocate finding a band and playing well over 10 games with it before a big tournament, if possible. Still, that matters a little less than the warband choice itself. But don't switch right before the big tournament unless you're sure the other warband is better.
- Dagni | |
Proud member of the GRUUMSH fan club! | |
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theplumber
Sneak
72 Posts
| | 06/13/2006 6:55 PM |
| | am i the only one who finds the use of the term "netbander" painfully lame? | |
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Vrecknidj
Warlord
10493 Posts
United States
| | 06/13/2006 7:26 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by theplumber
am i the only one who finds the use of the term "netbander" painfully lame?
No. I'm not fond of it either. Then again, I hated the use of the word "base" as a verb, but I've gotten used to it.
Dave | |
Knowledge Arcana editor issues 5-9, Phoenix Lore Magazine editor, assistant editor for Rite Publishing;
My Trade Thread and My Reference Thread; Winner of WBC IV, IX and XIII; Rule #0: bshugg is always right! | |
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kingnanu
Warrior
214 Posts
| | 06/13/2006 10:36 PM |
| | I hope this doen't sound too stupid, but what is a netbander? | |
Called shot for blood war: Leonal | |
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ruhk69
Warrior
205 Posts
| | 06/13/2006 10:52 PM |
| Originally posted by Vrecknidj
quote:
No offense or disrespect intended to anyone, especially not to Slartibart, but, the fact that Drizzt qualified in one qualifier doesn't mean that anything can win right now. Some bands will qualify at an event because that player is good, the band is good enough, and the matchups are favorable on the way up to the top 4.
The metagame matters as much now as it ever has. Thanks to the Helmed Horror, we have Marut/Couatl to take care of them. Thanks to the Marut, we have Kord to take care of him. Thanks to Kord and Marut we have both Arcane Ballista bands and GAS bands. Thanks to GAS we have yet more Helmed Horrors. In the meantime, there are all kinds of CE and CG bands that remain viable.
But, the meta drives what shows up at tournaments. I noticed that there were no Sacred Watchers in the top 4 bands at Niles. This doesn't mean there weren't a ton of Sacred Watchers there anyway.
Thanks to them, Turn Undead means something again, and the Zakya Rakshasa absolutely has to be considered in LE builds.
If you've got even a decent idea of what you'll face at an event, you stand a much better chance to do well.
Dave
Couldn't agree more. The metagame is an absolute factor and preparing for it sensibly will allow you to have a good chance to succeed. The metagame is not an all encompassing thought that everyone must and will play the same thing (like Couatl/titan). It does indicate a major trend that you have to prepare for. | |
The Waterboy. Proud member of Team Amish. | |
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Pegasus Knight
Sergeant
896 Posts
| | 06/13/2006 11:05 PM |
| I probably shouldn't have used 'netband' or 'netbander' without defining it. What I was referring to is how a certain sect of players in any competitive game will basically read stuff on the internet, see what won a tournament, then just blindly duplicate it. I doubt I'm the term's originator, but I picked it up as a variant of 'netdeck', referring to people who copy powerful decks in Magic: the Gathering they found on the internet.
Obviously, I can stop using the term if it's annoying folks, since that wasn't the intent. I was just using it as shorthand to refer to that sort of playstyle and warband building behavior. | |
- Irrationally Fanatical Champion of Pegasus-mounted cavalry
- Proud member of Team Low Tier Beasting: I play CG as my main faction!
- Garland, TX 2006 Qualifier Champion
My trading thread: http://www.maxminis.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=19725 | |
| Duke of Spoils
greyhaze
Warlord
7737 Posts
| | 06/13/2006 11:17 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by kingnanu
I hope this doen't sound too stupid, but what is a netbander?
Someone that takes a warband that someone else made off of the internet to use, because it's proven. | |
Greyhaze's DDM Spoilers
Champion of a Medium Dog & then a Darkenbeast , Raistlin Majere, Nightmare WDQ25/60, Warduke WD60/60,
Anti-Champion of Guns, "Knight of Bugbears", and Joke Champion of Venger.
Called Shots: Frost Giant in Dangerous Delves. | |
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ruhk69
Warrior
205 Posts
| | 06/13/2006 11:24 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Pegasus Knight
I probably shouldn't have used 'netband' or 'netbander' without defining it. What I was referring to is how a certain sect of players in any competitive game will basically read stuff on the internet, see what won a tournament, then just blindly duplicate it. I doubt I'm the term's originator, but I picked it up as a variant of 'netdeck', referring to people who copy powerful decks in Magic: the Gathering they found on the internet.
Obviously, I can stop using the term if it's annoying folks, since that wasn't the intent. I was just using it as shorthand to refer to that sort of playstyle and warband building behavior.
So what would you call someone who; read stuff on the internet, saw what won a tournament, realized that many would just blindly duplicate it, then brought a band that matches up well against it? Would that be a "counternetbander"? [:)] | |
The Waterboy. Proud member of Team Amish. | |
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Toxic_Rat
Sergeant
745 Posts
Lehi, Utah, USA
| | 06/13/2006 11:45 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by jacksonm
What is the Meta Game?
Seems like it changes again with every set. Each mini that attains some dominance ends up countered by something from the next set.
And then new dominant minis appear based on that from the new set, or old favorites given new life. Almost if they are planning it that way....
I wouldn't be surprised to find out that they were planning it that way. Some figures have utility with any band (ie, Couatl) and others have a distinctly strong synergy with older figures (Gith Monk and Young Master). I don't know if the designers are selecting older figures to make useful, but it's nice to think that they would make an attempt at older figures being useful, and not just relying on newer minis to create the meta-game.
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Any time you try to make something idiot-proof, someone always goes out and invents a better idiot.
Champion of Siege Equipment | |
| The Defenestrator
AesophDarkfable
Warlord
5628 Posts
| | 06/14/2006 12:29 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Pegasus Knight
You can basically turn your brain off while running these bands and still do fairly well against most opponents. Conversely, running something like that CG "grab bag" band a few weeks back definitely requires some forethought and heavy planning as you play.
Though you change it up a bit later in the post and make it a little less harsh, I think this statement is very silly and also a little abbrasive. There aren't many bands that run with the brain off and what you call "netbands" (a term I hate but thats for a different discussion) aren't necessarily in them. Marut/Coautl/Bodyguard for example. That band is so very, very, movement intensive. One mistake with the bodyguard placement and your in a world of hurt. Even Sacred Marut is different each match. Do you lead with the Marut or the watchers? Do you give cover or not? The band is forgiving of mistakes, but that means 1 or 2. You still have to play it tight and know what to do with it.
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Im out- find me on Hordelings if you want to chat. | |
| The Defenestrator
AesophDarkfable
Warlord
5628 Posts
| | 06/14/2006 12:38 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Pegasus Knight
I probably shouldn't have used 'netband' or 'netbander' without defining it. What I was referring to is how a certain sect of players in any competitive game will basically read stuff on the internet, see what won a tournament, then just blindly duplicate it. I doubt I'm the term's originator, but I picked it up as a variant of 'netdeck', referring to people who copy powerful decks in Magic: the Gathering they found on the internet.
Obviously, I can stop using the term if it's annoying folks, since that wasn't the intent. I was just using it as shorthand to refer to that sort of playstyle and warband building behavior.
I don't find it as annoying as I do a bit offensive. The concept of netdecks has alot to do with the sheer amount of magic cards out there. We really have alot less figures and therefore alot less combos. Take the band that BShugg ran at Pittsburgh, he didn't make top 4 with it, but if he did someone who have used it at another qualifier etc, I had a slight variation on that band in a large pile of bands I printed out right after wardrums (Sword Archon with Watchers and Dual Bodyguards) so when does a band become a netband? There are just alot fewer options/playable figures/synergies than a 60 card Magic Deck.
So the concept of "Netbands" suggest that if you play what is currently being played alot you are somehow a bad or lesser person. And you and the others who played CG are somehow better because as you said earlier...
quote:
Conversely, running something like that CG "grab bag" band a few weeks back definitely requires some forethought and heavy planning as you play.
Running a CG grab bag takes no less skill than running any other band. You run bands that fit your style, fit your strategy, and that you either A) feel you can win with, or B) want to have fun with (there is a C) that combines those too of course)
So it is not the term itself that annoys me, as much as its the holier than thou vibe I get when it gets bandied around. I ran Sacred Marut at KY because my goal was to qualify. End of story, that doesn't make me less of a person, player, etc. | |
Im out- find me on Hordelings if you want to chat. | |
| Master of the
Awesome Sauce
Teflon Jeff
Warlord
7908 Posts
Sector 2814
| | 06/14/2006 12:57 AM |
| | I would hope that the new minis make older ones useful. But still making the new minis useful as well. | |
Official Delegate, Wizards of the Coast
Icons Called Shot: Gargantuan Prismatic Dragon
"Rejoice, for bad things are about to happen." | |
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kyrin
Commander
3171 Posts
| | 06/14/2006 1:11 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by AesophDarkfable
So it is not the term itself that annoys me, as much as its the holier than thou vibe I get when it gets bandied around. I ran Sacred Marut at KY because my goal was to qualify. End of story, that doesn't make me less of a person, player, etc.
I wonder if cover bands feel the same way about the attitude of bands who play original music, and the people who think the original bands are better musicians...
Sorry, ADF, I gotta part ways with you here. If I gotta choose between qualifying with somebody else's warband, and not qualifying with my own original design, I'll go home a loser (as I often do), but with my pride. I got a thing about being original, and I don't like seeing people essentially punt on one-third of the game. I'm challenging (some would say "haranguing") the good players here in Austin to be innovators, not imitators. One of our guys qualified this past weekend with a totally original band. I hope he makes a lot of noise at GenCon. In fact, I hope everybody with original warbands cleans up, and there's nary a Marut or Helmed Horror in sight in the Finals.
JIM
aka kyrin | |
My Have/Want List <-|-|->My Trades and References 1 <-|-|->My Trades and References 2
Pronounce "Drow" like "crow"! Viva la Revolution! We Shall Overcome!
Vindicated Champion of the Stirge! Vindicated Champion of the Githyanki Knight on Red Dragon!!
Vindicated Champion of the Androsphinx! | |
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kyrin
Commander
3171 Posts
| | 06/14/2006 1:14 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by theplumber
am i the only one who finds the use of the term "netbander" painfully lame?
Haven't decided about the term, but I do find the practice kind of sad...
JIM
aka kyrin | |
My Have/Want List <-|-|->My Trades and References 1 <-|-|->My Trades and References 2
Pronounce "Drow" like "crow"! Viva la Revolution! We Shall Overcome!
Vindicated Champion of the Stirge! Vindicated Champion of the Githyanki Knight on Red Dragon!!
Vindicated Champion of the Androsphinx! | |
| The Defenestrator
AesophDarkfable
Warlord
5628 Posts
| | 06/14/2006 1:20 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by kyrin
quote:
Originally posted by AesophDarkfable
So it is not the term itself that annoys me, as much as its the holier than thou vibe I get when it gets bandied around. I ran Sacred Marut at KY because my goal was to qualify. End of story, that doesn't make me less of a person, player, etc.
I wonder if cover bands feel the same way about the attitude of bands who play original music, and the people who think the original bands are better musicians...
Sorry, ADF, I gotta part ways with you here. If I gotta choose between qualifying with somebody else's warband, and not qualifying with my own original design, I'll go home a loser (as I often do), but with my pride. I got a thing about being original, and I don't like seeing people essentially punt on one-third of the game. I'm challenging (some would say "haranguing") the good players here in Austin to be innovators, not imitators. One of our guys qualified this past weekend with a totally original band. I hope he makes a lot of noise at GenCon. In fact, I hope everybody with original warbands cleans up, and there's nary a Marut or Helmed Horror in sight in the Finals.
JIM
aka kyrin
But the other part of my point is there are only so many "original" competitive bands out there. Sure you can bring a Silver Sorceror and Sage band, but it's going to lose.
Add to that the other issues of lots of people think alike and you've got even fewer. As I said, I had a band with Sword Archon, Double Bodyguards that I build when Wardrums came out, then Brad ran if a few weeks ago at Pitt and I said woh, I had forgotten about that.
When Chraals came out several people were testing very similar bands with them, it wasn't "netbanding" it was people seeing a winning figure and a combination that works. | |
Im out- find me on Hordelings if you want to chat. | |
| Hero of Skirmish
doubtofbuddha
Commander
3371 Posts
| | 06/14/2006 1:29 AM |
| | Just because you bring a warband that isn't widely used doesn't mean its original. It means that at the very least a half dozen people considered the idea but didn't think it was competitive enough to bother with. Building a warband around a Sand Giant, for example, isn't exactly an original idea. Its still a titan core warband with a different titan. | |
I am not gone. | |
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Pegasus Knight
Sergeant
896 Posts
| | 06/14/2006 1:33 AM |
| I'm not intending to attack anyone here for using an established archetype band. Most folks here are strong players who, if they choose to run an established band, do so because they've thought things through and believe that band is their best choice for a tournament. That's part of Playing To Win, and I'm not going to object to that in any huge way.
What I do object to in this sort of thing is the effect this can have on creativity if it's left unchecked. I've seen several competitive games absolutely ruined because the metagame latched onto one small set of strategies, characters, cards, or whatever and no viable counter seemed to exist. The game would degenerate into just a tiny handful of options being played, making the whole thing rather pointless.
Fortunately, DDM doesn't look like it falls into that trap. If someone, or multiple people, get complacent with a certain popular band...then sooner or later they're going to run into a counter-tactic, a counter-band, or both. The mightiest can be brought down by very specific application of certain plans and warbands, and that's a good thing.
I'm certainly not suggesting you're a bad person because you run an established archetype; that'd be silly. My only aversion to the practice is what can happen to a metagame if a certain team/character/tactic/whatever remains dominant for too long and can't be dealt with by other measures in the game. But DDM's inherent safeguard for this is 'hatebands' and rogue-builders. Given long enough, they'll find something to deal with the 'problem' and cause a metagame shift.
My writing might've seemed a little heavy-handed. Looking back on it, I can easily see why it would be construed that way. It definitely wasn't my intent to attack you or anyone here about the use of archetype/established bands, I presented my concerns about metagame-stasis very poorly.
I apologize for that; you had every reason to be offended even if the effect wasn't intended. | |
- Irrationally Fanatical Champion of Pegasus-mounted cavalry
- Proud member of Team Low Tier Beasting: I play CG as my main faction!
- Garland, TX 2006 Qualifier Champion
My trading thread: http://www.maxminis.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=19725 | |
|
True_Blue
Underboss
2386 Posts
| | 06/14/2006 1:39 AM |
| wow I didnt know ppl thought so well of themselves because they came up with their band all on their own. I come here and get advice from ppl so that I can better myself making bands and evolve in the competitive environment. Basically it seems like if you run anything someone has suggestion, you just arent creative. I agree that there just arent many combinations out there, no matter what anyone says. Its always getting better, but there arent that many minis out there. Especially when only a small amount is creative.
So if I come on here, and see the Marut/Couatl/Bodyguard combo, and I like the synergies I see and think, man that would be a good band for me, I'm a netbander or whatever because I choose to run it. I like it, I see how I could run it, but I'm just not creative because I used it. I didnt know that was so offensive to ppl. Might as well start having ppl "call off" what their band is, and if anyone else uses it, its just not original and is "sad". So someone "call" the 2 Pegasi! Now Pegasus Knight can only use the 1 pegasus band, or 3 pegasi, etc. Not a knock towards anyone, but I just dont see how this is "sad".
I come on the boards in order to see what other ppl think of certain peices, bands, etc. If I come across a band that I think is pretty neat, then I may adopt it and try to play it if I end up liking how it looks. One of the bands that did this for me was the 5 DC band with a Cleric of Nerull. I was like wow thats a good band, and definetely has some potential. I even tried it out a little to see how it played out because I have been looking at how to include as many DC as I can, and still have a commander that did something. But now that someone used it, they could come on here and be like, Dont run it at a Tournament, you are a netbander, thats so lame, man make up your own.
I dunno, maybe I took this to heart more than I should, but I just dont see what is "lame" about this. If you think player skill means more than the band, then what do you care if someone *does* take a "cool band". You should still be able to beat them. You should be metagaming against it anyways.
That Play_to_Win article applies here too. If there ends up being a great band out there that does well 90% of the time, why in the world wouldnt most ppl use it? Its nice that in D&DM we dont see this. The designers have done well to make it where while some bands seem to be "better", others can still win consistantly. I dont like the idea that I have to worry if someone else has already "made that band", and now its off limits if I see it and decide I'd like to run it and maybe end up liking it. Part of the idea of this messageboards is to share ideas with eachother, and I think seeing warbands and maybe seeing one you like, is part of this.
For the record I usually play either a Quad CE hitter band with WD, or a HGB + 2 hitters with WD. I've seen other ppl post about these types of bands, and seen ppl run them also. In time I grew to love these kind of bands, and chose them as my personal favorite. I'd hate to be called a netbander because the premise of my band is based off of what I saw others did. I thought that was the point.
You may think its sad if someone sees a band on the internet and takes the exact thing to a tournament, but personally I dont see the problem. It happens, no idea is really original, no matter what you think. Some warbands are just made a little "better" than others, so it is obvious to me that some ppl would want to practice with the proven "good" bands. The trick is to make it where there's a lot of these.
Its all my opinion anyways, I'm sure others will disagree. | |
Champion of a Knight of Takhisis/Knight of Neraka | |
|
Most Edumacated
zenthrus
Warlord
5132 Posts
SLC, UT
| | 06/14/2006 1:46 AM |
| Thinking outside the box is excellent. First, it helps to know what's in the box.
When I first considered skirmish, I read through these forums (tried the WotC boards--they aren't so helpful), looked at the toolkits, etc. to see what was being played/efficient/etc.
My first band I tinkered around with was 3xChraal, HBG, Green Dragon, Warrior Skellies. I suppose I'm a 'netbander.'
However, I have to say that skill plays a far larger role. I can take any popular band and get trounced by someone who knows their stuff. I can take my absurd AC band (using a few "sub-par" pieces) and hold my own.
If I hadn't looked at what other people were playing/thinking, I probably would be a far weaker player than I am (not that I'm terribly good, or anything). It is a good idea to take a peek inside the box before jumping outside. | |
Knight Warlord a.k.a. Commander (#32) in only 6 months. Where's my pie?
Champion of Dwarven Thunderlashers
Knight of the Large Dire Chicken
Have/Want List
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| D&D Miniatures
Guru
guyf
Sergeant
545 Posts
| | 06/14/2006 1:56 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by kyrin
quote:
Originally posted by AesophDarkfable
So it is not the term itself that annoys me, as much as its the holier than thou vibe I get when it gets bandied around. I ran Sacred Marut at KY because my goal was to qualify. End of story, that doesn't make me less of a person, player, etc.
I wonder if cover bands feel the same way about the attitude of bands who play original music, and the people who think the original bands are better musicians...
If I gotta choose between qualifying with somebody else's warband, and not qualifying with my own original design, I'll go home a loser (as I often do), but with my pride. I got a thing about being original, and I don't like seeing people essentially punt on one-third of the game.
Here's the issue: The Championships (and tournaments in general) are about finding the best player in the given tournament. While it's true to say that some portion (say, one-third) of the game is about building a warband, no rule says the warband must be unique or original. So players that win with established, proven warbands aren't punting on any part of the game.
(Certainly players can enjoy exploring and experimenting with a variety of warband concepts and combinations of creatures, but no game rule says you must do so. Thus, it is not a requirement for playing the game.)
Holding yourself to a standard of using original warbands is awesome! (I really like warband experimentation, and I do a *lot* of it in our leagues.) However, it's still an artificial standard, because no part of the game rule supports that standard.
Thus, implying that players of "netbands" have no pride and chastising them for not living up to an artificial standard seems ... well ... mean. I can totally understand how people would take offense to it.
Or maybe I should spin it like this: If your goal (which is laudable, I might add) is to promote the use of original warbands, you would be far better off using a carrot than a stick. A carrot might actually encourage folks to see things your way. A stick is just going to make them upset with you. | |
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Guy Fullerton
Official D&D Miniatures Net Rep | |
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Pegasus Knight
Sergeant
896 Posts
| | 06/14/2006 2:42 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by zenthrus
Thinking outside the box is excellent. First, it helps to know what's in the box.
If I hadn't looked at what other people were playing/thinking, I probably would be a far weaker player than I am (not that I'm terribly good, or anything). It is a good idea to take a peek inside the box before jumping outside.
Zenthrus brings up something I strongly agree with. You need a starting point. For us, that's the Toolkit and the accompanying strategy articles. Info like this is absolutely needed. Tournament reports are needed. Warband archetypes are even needed. They all accelerate the learning process and help you learn from the experiences of others. These are all good things.
I mis-stated my point previously, and definitely want to echo Zenthrus' sentiment here. Reading up on things is good. Using resources to learn is also good. These things can dramatically decrease the learning curve for someone, and that's always a positive thing. | |
- Irrationally Fanatical Champion of Pegasus-mounted cavalry
- Proud member of Team Low Tier Beasting: I play CG as my main faction!
- Garland, TX 2006 Qualifier Champion
My trading thread: http://www.maxminis.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=19725 | |
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Dagni
Sergeant
870 Posts
| | 06/14/2006 4:23 AM |
| Quoted from another thread, but more appropriately responded to here:
quote:
Originally posted by kyrin
Guess that's why I'm not -- and never will be -- a "top tier" player. I don't use other people's warbands, and I've got too much going on in Life to look for the Next Broken Piece or the Next Killer Synergy. Ah well, as long as the entry fees don't get too high, I'll probably keep playing. I've made some good friends on the local scene, and that's what it's all about.
And, from this thread:
quote:
Originally posted by kyrin
Sorry, ADF, I gotta part ways with you here. If I gotta choose between qualifying with somebody else's warband, and not qualifying with my own original design, I'll go home a loser (as I often do), but with my pride. I got a thing about being original, and I don't like seeing people essentially punt on one-third of the game. I'm challenging (some would say "haranguing") the good players here in Austin to be innovators, not imitators.
Hmm, I have no problem with people that personally find it more important to be original than to win. I don't see what problem there is with a person who doesn't care as much about originality. It's not like netbanding is a formula for instant success, anyway. However, for those, like you, who don't have time to search for and test the next great warband, they can save time in their busy life and use or tweak an existing band. Then too, half of everyone and his brother all came up with Marut/Couatl. Derry and I independantly came up with a band that differed by only 19 points for UT. Vrecknidj and many others played it the next week, or two weeks after, whenever, but he had been playing Marut/Couatl variations for like a month or more.
Someone said, I forget who (Kithmaker?), that he had been hoping Marut / Sacred Watcher would go unspoiled, but since it was played, he went with something else. It doesn't make a person any less original to play a band you came up with yourself even if other people also use and know about the band. I guess each person has to decide for himself if he cares that others will *think* he wasn't original.
More blatent is Kord/Couatl/Dol Arrah/WF Bodyguard. That band is pretty original. I came up with it myself. There's been no hint that anyone else arrived at it independantly in any earlier qualifiers or other tournaments. Of course, Kord/Couatl had been played in other tournaments. It's entirely possible that some of those who played my exact build had been practicing their own original Kord band for months, and after seeing my build, simply said, hmm, maybe that's better. Then, after trying it, liked it enough to play it. Anyway, 8 players played it at Niles. Even though I think it's unlikely that any of them arrived at the band totally independantly, I'm not sure how many 'netdecked' it either!
Brad knew about the band beforehand, because he was part of a warband building group I was in. We often bounce our ideas off each other. Even better, if we like someone else's idea, we can test it for them. Brad (and Pat Lynch, and Jesse Dean, and myself) ran my Kord build in a local tourney before it was a net band, IIRC. The results from the four of us was favorable enough that we still liked the band, and Pat and I both chose to use it. In any case, I think, though I'm not sure, that Brad said that like 6 of the 8 Kord bands were from his region. It could be that these people, far from netbanding, were more specifically influenced by Brad, or by seeing him run the band in just one local tournament. Heck, I've suggested the band to several people who've asked me for warband advice on Vassal. DDM is a small world, as of yet.
Regardless, there are people who want to be original. I'll still suggest what I was going to suggest. You state that you won't use other people's warbands, and have too little time to come up with the next great warband. I suggest that you try to get a warband building group together. Together, you'll have more time than by yourself. Other people can test your ideas in tournaments, and some that you expect to do well, won't, and vice versa. You can try out other player's ideas.
Maybe, just maybe, you will play the same band as 3 other people in the group. Unless even that's not original enough, I wouldn't know. I would expect, however, that it'd be fine to you and to anyone. Because your group WOULD be playing an original band. It's just a group's original band, instead of a single person's original band.
Whether online or with other locals, you might have more success, while still adhering to originality, if you form a group of like-minded warband builders.
- Dagni | |
Proud member of the GRUUMSH fan club! | |
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Sirohk
Commander
3938 Posts
USA
| | 06/14/2006 7:15 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Vrecknidj
quote:
Originally posted by Jerry_Damage01
Your warband choice should be one that you know how to pilot. Anything can win right now. Look at this past weekend, a Drizzt warband made it in. People can netband all they want to but it doesn't matter if they dont' have the skill to play it. It basically boils down to this, "There are no top tier warbands, only top tier players."
No offense or disrespect intended to anyone, especially not to Slartibart, but, the fact that Drizzt qualified in one qualifier doesn't mean that anything can win right now. Some bands will qualify at an event because that player is good, the band is good enough, and the matchups are favorable on the way up to the top 4.
The metagame matters as much now as it ever has. Thanks to the Helmed Horror, we have Marut/Couatl to take care of them. Thanks to the Marut, we have Kord to take care of him. Thanks to Kord and Marut we have both Arcane Ballista bands and GAS bands. Thanks to GAS we have yet more Helmed Horrors. In the meantime, there are all kinds of CE and CG bands that remain viable.
But, the meta drives what shows up at tournaments. I noticed that there were no Sacred Watchers in the top 4 bands at Niles. This doesn't mean there weren't a ton of Sacred Watchers there anyway.
Thanks to them, Turn Undead means something again, and the Zakya Rakshasa absolutely has to be considered in LE builds.
If you've got even a decent idea of what you'll face at an event, you stand a much better chance to do well.
Dave
Vrecknidj hit the nail right on the head. [^] The meta IS whats driving what shows up. Right now Couatl + X is showing up a lot at almost every qualifier. But, there are a number of other warbands that are showing up that depending on the draw you may have to deal with. You can't prepare for everything, but you can try to tool a warband to have a chance to deal with most things, practice with that warband, get a good draw, and hope the dice are on your favor that day. [:)]
"Thanks to the Helmed Horror, we have Marut/Couatl to take care of them. Thanks to the Marut, we have Kord to take care of him. Thanks to Kord and Marut we have both Arcane Ballista bands and GAS bands. Thanks to GAS we have yet more Helmed Horrors. And thanks to Sacred Watchers, turn Undead means something again, and the Zakya Rakshasa appears in warbands." [:p]
More ROCK - PAPER - SCISSORS. [}:)]
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Sirohk, the Bard of Heartstone
Knight of the Rahshasa's
And Crusader of the Zakya, Ak'chazar, Naztharune, and Naityan Rakshasa's | |
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SaintPauli
Warrior
189 Posts
| | 06/14/2006 7:37 AM |
| Personally I don’t like to play what is considered the hottest pieces (never played a Marut or a HH) but the proven netbands is what the metagame is about.
Warbanding at a tournament level is however very different from casual play. I can’t expect my favourite Lich band to perform well due to the popularity of certain pieces. I do however know that the proven netbands work and lots of others are going to play variations thereof.
That doesn’t mean that warbanding skill and the ability to analyse the metagame isn’t important. It is however not about reinventing the wheel but instead it is about finding that NOST that give your Marut, HH, Chall band the upper hand against similar bands (The Green Dragon and the Halfling scout are great examples of this).
My bet is that the NOST most often can be found in the extended toolkit.
Rock’n Roll
SaintPauli | |
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bshugg
Underboss
1833 Posts
| | 06/14/2006 9:39 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by kyrin
quote:
Originally posted by AesophDarkfable
So it is not the term itself that annoys me, as much as its the holier than thou vibe I get when it gets bandied around. I ran Sacred Marut at KY because my goal was to qualify. End of story, that doesn't make me less of a person, player, etc.
I wonder if cover bands feel the same way about the attitude of bands who play original music, and the people who think the original bands are better musicians...
Sorry, ADF, I gotta part ways with you here. If I gotta choose between qualifying with somebody else's warband, and not qualifying with my own original design, I'll go home a loser (as I often do), but with my pride. I got a thing about being original, and I don't like seeing people essentially punt on one-third of the game. I'm challenging (some would say "haranguing") the good players here in Austin to be innovators, not imitators. One of our guys qualified this past weekend with a totally original band. I hope he makes a lot of noise at GenCon. In fact, I hope everybody with original warbands cleans up, and there's nary a Marut or Helmed Horror in sight in the Finals.
JIM
aka kyrin
I have played competitive games for 14 years now. I have seen this discussion over and over. People who look down on "netdecking" or "netbanding" are looking for an excuse for their poor playing, building skills, or lack of effort. Its a crutch and nothing more. You can tell by who is complaining. Its rarely the person designing the innovative designs and WINNING with them. It's the people who are not winning in big competitive events. The players who lead the field with new designs that are being copied take it as a complement.
Just cause you copy a warband doesn't mean you have the skill to play it. This is especially true in DnD miniatures. Each and every match up you face requires different tactics to handle. Saying someone lacks originality because they copy the band cheapens their skill when they win with it. Its also completely untrue.
There's only a small amount of figures, there's an even smaller amount of competitive figs. Its egotistical to think that only playing creative unique designs is the way to go. I'm betting others have come up with the same designs, and even worse, BETTER versions using slightly different figures. I have built some popular archetypes in the past and everyone was not done in a vacuum. They were spawned by comments other made, testing against bad bands that have an interesting twist, etc. Anyone who posts on a forum like this can't claim their bands and ideas as unique.
My advice for people that feels they must be unique, is to give it up for a bit. Copy the "netbands", actually win with them at large events, and then work on innovative designs. Prove you can do so and get a good feel of what makes the best bands work. Make sure its not your high stance against "netbands" that is holding you back rather than making mistakes in other areas of the game. Wouldn't that prove your views more than refusing to play a copied band?
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Looking for someone to cosponser a midwest DDM event. let me know if your interested!
Check out my brand new blog:
http://bshugg.blogspot.com | |
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kyrin
Commander
3171 Posts
| | 06/14/2006 10:13 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Dagni
I suggest that you try to get a warband building group together. Together, you'll have more time than by yourself. Other people can test your ideas in tournaments, and some that you expect to do well, won't, and vice versa. You can try out other player's ideas.
This is more or less what we plan to do in our local group. There are people who do have time and inclination to innovative warband construction, and I'm going to do all I can to support them.
JIM
aka kyrin | |
My Have/Want List <-|-|->My Trades and References 1 <-|-|->My Trades and References 2
Pronounce "Drow" like "crow"! Viva la Revolution! We Shall Overcome!
Vindicated Champion of the Stirge! Vindicated Champion of the Githyanki Knight on Red Dragon!!
Vindicated Champion of the Androsphinx! | |
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kyrin
Commander
3171 Posts
| | 06/14/2006 10:57 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by bshugg
I have played competitive games for 14 years now. I have seen this discussion over and over. People who look down on "netdecking" or "netbanding" are looking for an excuse for their poor playing, building skills, or lack of effort. Its a crutch and nothing more.
Wow, bshugg, thanks for the insight and analysis, insulting as it may be. I, of course, would contend, having played competitive games for over two decades, that people who engage in "netdecking" or "netbanding" are looking for a way to get aroundtheir poor playing, building skills, or lack of effort. I see the practice as a crutch and nothing more. But different people have different value systems. There are those who value winning as the end that justifies the means, and there are those who want to stand or fall on their own merits, and there are a ton of people in-between. This is my final word on the matter, and I'll go back to leaving the skirmish boards alone for awhile:
Nobaody says that people who play in a cover band aren't good musicians. They've still got to play the music and sing the words. Many of them are great and make a nice living. But they've also got to come to grips with the fact that many will not consider them to be "legitimate" until they succeed with an original composition or two. They can protest and say that how can anyone be truly original these days, since everybody hears so many songs, but in the end there is a difference between a song that is reminiscent of Master of Puppets, and a song by a Metallica "tribute" band.
I don't have the time and inclination to get into the esoterica of warband building. The fact that I spend so little time on this section of the site testifies to that. But I won't use somebody else's warband. Original warbands may not be a mandate of the game, but warband building *is* part of the game. It just happens to be part of the game that people can take shortcuts with, if they so choose. I don't choose to do that, although it may be more expedient for me. There are those who say, if you don't care about winning first and foremost, why are you even playing? My response is, if you're not going to do every aspect of the game yourself, why even bother playing? I know what it feels like to win, bshugg. I'm so familiar with the feeling, in fact, that it's not that important to me anymore.
If you want to play Other People's Warbands for years and years, rack up some wins, and then maybe come up with something original, as bshugg suggests, then more power to ya. A lot of musicians work that way too. But it's much more satisfying to me to come up with my own original design that works well and is fun to play, even if it means I finish in the middle of the pack. If anything, it's nice to see the look on the netbanders' faces when they see something they never have before. [:D]
And, as a great American philosopher once said, That's all I have to say about that.
JIM
aka kyrin | |
My Have/Want List <-|-|->My Trades and References 1 <-|-|->My Trades and References 2
Pronounce "Drow" like "crow"! Viva la Revolution! We Shall Overcome!
Vindicated Champion of the Stirge! Vindicated Champion of the Githyanki Knight on Red Dragon!!
Vindicated Champion of the Androsphinx! | |
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Blunt Claymore
Sneak
78 Posts
| | 06/14/2006 11:53 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Pegasus Knight
What I do object to in this sort of thing is the effect this can have on creativity if it's left unchecked. I've seen several competitive games absolutely ruined because the metagame latched onto one small set of strategies, characters, cards, or whatever and no viable counter seemed to exist...
Fortunately, DDM doesn't look like it falls into that trap. If someone, or multiple people, get complacent with a certain popular band...then sooner or later they're going to run into a counter-tactic, a counter-band, or both.
PK, you seem to contradict yourself here, but I agree with you. That is, "latching on" is not a stable strategy. The more latching on occurs the more it becomes vulnerable to counter-tactics. It's not lamentable, it's cyclical (and it's kind of cool to behold). That's group dynamics for you.
On a side note, it is a certainly a sign of a creative mind to develop a novel strategy (as Newtoncain did with his double umber hulk band in Minneapolis last month -- I noticed that's not what he took to Niles, however). That enriches the metagame. However, the true tests of sheer gamesmanship are mirror matches. So, celebrate homogeneity, too. ΖD] | |
A journey of 1,000 miles starts with a good whooping. | |
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Blunt Claymore
Sneak
78 Posts
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