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johnny.quest
Underboss
1386 Posts
    
 | | 06/14/2006 1:10 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Kiddoc
Blunt Claymore, I don't know who you are, or where you came from--but please make a concerted effort to contribute to this community MORE OFTEN!
It was a pleasure to read your assessment and the style you chose to present it in. Lately Maxminis has devolved into a b*tchy whine-fest chock full of absolute drivel: You give me hope for the future.
Hear hear! | | | |
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bshugg
Underboss
1833 Posts
| | 06/14/2006 1:41 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by kyrin
There are those who say, if you don't care about winning first and foremost, why are you even playing? My response is, if you're not going to do every aspect of the game yourself, why even bother playing? I know what it feels like to win, bshugg. I'm so familiar with the feeling, in fact, that it's not that important to me anymore.
But it's much more satisfying to me to come up with my own original design that works well and is fun to play, even if it means I finish in the middle of the pack. If anything, it's nice to see the look on the netbanders' faces when they see something they never have before. [:D]
It's clear you took offense in my comments. This last response is a lot different then:
quote:
Originally posted by kyrin
I'm challenging (some would say "haranguing") the good players here in Austin to be innovators, not imitators.
or
quote:
Originally posted by kyrin
am i the only one who finds the use of the term "netbander" painfully lame?
________________________________________
Haven't decided about the term, but I do find the practice kind of sad...
Most of the good players that are making you sad when they copy also can build something "never seen before" and finish 3-3 or 4-2 with little effort. Its practicing with the best builds, finding tricks to beat them and tuning them to improve in a specific metagame that a lot of people find challanging. A lot of players try to do this and don't succeed. The ones that do succeed clearly have the talant, skill and ability that you say is lacking. Its no more sad or lacking originality for either group of players. Its when one group points fingers at the other or holds themselves higher because of a percieved shortcoming that I take offense. Thats what my last post was trying to do: Point the fingers back and see if you took offense to it as well.
People who copy warbands are clearly interested in winning. They are taking something successful and seeing if they can repeat that process themselves. A lot even tune them or play them differently to see if they can be improved on even more. You said yourself that your not looking for that winning feeling as much anymore. How can you judge people that are into the game for clearly different reasons than your own? If I bring a kobold theme band to a tournament with the goal of finishing in last place, can I look down on the people who don't share that same interest?
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Looking for someone to cosponser a midwest DDM event. let me know if your interested!
Check out my brand new blog:
http://bshugg.blogspot.com | |
| The Defenestrator
AesophDarkfable
Warlord
5628 Posts
| | 06/14/2006 3:16 PM |
| | The music/cover band comparison doesn't do it for me. Music you are dealing with combinations of notes, speed, lyrics, with as few as one (including voice) with up 100s of instruments. There are zillions of combinations possble. We are dealing with under 500 figures where you are limited to 8 of them keeping within factions and 200pts. There are alot less possibilities there. | |
Im out- find me on Hordelings if you want to chat. | |
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IanB
Commander
3112 Posts
| | 06/14/2006 4:30 PM |
| Frankly I think limiting myself to playing only with pieces that people like Dagni and Derry won't play with is a very strange approach to the game, and is going to do nothing to further my skill as a player.
Why would I tie one hand behind my back just because someone else happened to decide a particular set of pieces went well together before I did?
I've been playing a vaguely "rogue" warband all spring, but certainly not out of any belief that doing so makes me morally superior, just out of a belief that it has (or had, at least) a good matchup against pieces that are (or were, at least) popular.
Furthermore, I would argue that playing "net bands" for players who aren't yet at the top of their game yet is the best thing they can do to improve their game, short of being lucky enough to play games against top players all the time. Seeing how these bands work, what goes into particular figure choices, etc., in actual game practice, is a great way to improve your own warband building skills. I would say that encouraging newer or less skilled players to jump headfirst into building their own warbands while they're still learning other play skills is not necessarily helping them improve. | |
Anson on WotC boards | |
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Vrecknidj
Warlord
10493 Posts
United States
| | 06/14/2006 5:50 PM |
| Brad showed me Dagni's band, not by saying "Hey Dave, check this out," but by bringing it to a session and playing it and beating me with it. I decided to test it myself, found that I liked it, and am happy to have played it.
Alex often goes for originality. For a long time he was playing this: Mordenkainen, Chraal, Efreeti x2, Warrior Skeleton x4. He took it to the Midwest Open and did amazingly well. Even Couatl bands had to deal with the fact that he could crank out enough damage to be taken seriously.
I enjoy winning and I enjoy designing. I think that I like making up bands more than I like playing them. At local get-togethers and small events, I have more fun prepping for an event, helping all the locals do tweaking, than anything else. They're looking to get an edge, but they want to keep their core ideas intact. I find this to be great. It challenges my warband building skill.
After coming close at three different qualifiers over two years, I decided for Niles I wanted to win more than I wanted to win with any particular band. I really like playing Good bands, and so I was particularly happy to be able to play LG this time. I felt that Dagni's band (CoDA/Couatl/Kord/Bodyguard) was the most resilient band out there at the time. Fearless is great, a sickening amount of freebie hit points is superb.
Conversations about the metagame probably do stifle us a little. I agree that occasionally someone shows up with a band or piece that I've ignored and then I really have to figure out what to do.
I think Alex was going for this with his Mephling/Marut band. He surprised some people and ended up doing well with it.
Another friend of mine, Dan, shows up with new stuff all the time. He doesn't have a third of the pieces I have, and he usually refuses to borrow mine. He often dreams up stuff I wouldn't have (but then, he's not online being poisoned like I am), and he does quite well with it. In that regard, I'm really glad he's a big part of my local game. With both him and Alex as competitors, I'm always having to play against weird things that I don't see here.
Dave | |
Knowledge Arcana editor issues 5-9, Phoenix Lore Magazine editor, assistant editor for Rite Publishing;
My Trade Thread and My Reference Thread; Winner of WBC IV, IX and XIII; Rule #0: bshugg is always right! | |
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Gunthar
Commander
2938 Posts
| | 06/14/2006 7:00 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Blunt Claymore
quote:
Originally posted by guyf
...snip...
(Certainly players can enjoy exploring and experimenting with a variety of warband concepts and combinations of creatures, but no game rule says you must do so. Thus, it is not a requirement for playing the game.)
Holding yourself to a standard of using original warbands is awesome! (I really like warband experimentation, and I do a *lot* of it in our leagues.) However, it's still an artificial standard, because no part of the game rule supports that standard.
With due respect, I beg to differ slightly. The standard of originality is supported by the very topic of this string, the metagame. If you bring in something creative it hasn't been meta-gamed or practiced against, that's an edge. If you bring in something that is prominent in the meta-game and everyone's considered how to counter it, you have to be that much better than the competition to win. This is what I mean by it being a self correcting cycle. While there is nothing in the game rules requiring an original warband, there is this natural cycle that encourages and discourages.Vive la difference!
AMEN! Not only that, but I find mirror-matches aesthetically repugnant. I also don't like repetitive pieces. "Is that? Yep, that's my Orc Champion. If I lift it up, there's a sticker on the bottom that tells me if it's #1,2,3 or 4". I HATE that. Especially for viewers who aren't able to sit from beginning to end and want to see a bit. | |
Champion of Prit(Wemic vindication is here)
Minneapolis/St. Paul area
Completed trades: Aspect of Cheese (Love that moniker), Tickparasite, Elderthing, Lalato, Sodj, Grimoire, SmilinIrish, Zeb, RWarehall,Link, wikkawikkawa, Auramancer, Rommers, HK, Ivid5,Qillan_dvra, Puggins, Arcabius, Ironfist Boulderbender, Robby, Corim Danex, monster_slayer, DNDJUNKIE, Kelemvor, Krush, ckissee, Massawyrm, hockey fan, Wish, Uninspiring Lieutenant, vtloon x2, Vrecknidj, Darthpoke, WakeXX, AnarionZell, lycusmike, papabear5 and umpteen local trades with board members
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Narcissus
Warrior
197 Posts
| | 06/15/2006 4:48 AM |
| Yet another need to make reference to Sirlin...
http://www.sirlin.net/Features/feature_PlayToWinPart1.htm | |
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bshugg
Underboss
1833 Posts
| | 06/15/2006 7:33 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Narcissus
Yet another need to make reference to Sirlin...
http://www.sirlin.net/Features/feature_PlayToWinPart1.htm
I forgot that reference above or I would of included it. | |
Looking for someone to cosponser a midwest DDM event. let me know if your interested!
Check out my brand new blog:
http://bshugg.blogspot.com | |
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forkedmoon
Underboss
1305 Posts
| | 06/15/2006 9:11 AM |
| Now if we go back to the original question - does the meta game matter anymore? - the answer is a resounding yes. The underlying question is how does the meta-game matter. It appears there are two sides using the metagame as test data for finding the warband to play - probably why we see so many couatl-maruts or using the data to design to beat the current "state of the art" warband - where the triple slaad teams come from.
I guess there is a third choice ignore the meta game and play what you want without regard to the most likely match-ups you will face. We each have our opinions about how to use the data that can be/has been collected and those choices are part of what makes each tournament unique and keeps DDM entertaining for me. | |
Champion of Cyclops
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johnny.quest
Underboss
1386 Posts
| | 06/15/2006 10:23 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by forkedmoon
It appears there are two sides using the metagame as test data for finding the warband to play - probably why we see so many couatl-maruts or using the data to design to beat the current "state of the art" warband - where the triple slaad teams come from.
Good point, forkedmoon, although I also used the metagame to test my triple Death Slaads against a variety of "state of the art" warbands. I put together dual HGB, triple HH, Sacred Marut, Marut BG, and GAS warbands. Then, I took them to my FLGS and asked anyone who would to play those warbands against me. I found that the Slaadi held up quite well against all of these warbands. | | | |
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SYB
Warrior
328 Posts
| | 06/15/2006 11:48 AM |
| Here is an interesting thought. Does the metagame expand or contract if this rule were implemented:
Tournament rule: Every player must bring 2 warbands (of differing alignments). And then, one of the following three rules also existed:
-One warband is played on odd games and the other is played on even games.
-Warband played is determined randomly each game.
-One warband is used during swiss and the other is used during single elimination.
Personally, I would love to see some rule similar to the above implemented. I believe it would expand the metagame. Yes, players would still generally play the "usual suspect" bands, but it would increase the total number of bands in play (double, by definition) and would likely help give an edge to lesser played builds. For example, CG tends to have the most trouble with LG, but knowing that every player is playing AT LEAST one non-LG build, CG would probably be played more.
I also think it would highlight player skill a little more than currently (though, that really is for another thread).
I don't expect any version of the above rule to come about, but I think it is good food for thought.
-SYB | |
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Felagund
Sergeant
922 Posts
| | 06/15/2006 12:22 PM |
| For me, it comes down to this. If you refuse to copy the warbands of others, that's fine. Originality is more important to you than winning. But don't look down your nose at people who do choose to copy warbands because they're more interested in winning than being creative.
We're all skirmishers here. Let's try to get along and save our ire for those filthy RPG-only folks. [)] | |
Champion of Gnomes | |
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