Vrecknidj
Warlord
10493 Posts
    
United States
 | | 06/20/2006 9:11 PM |
| I haven't asked the head honchos what they think will be moved up or down in the toolkit, and I'm sure they'll tell us soon enough. But, so far, here are my guesses:
Lawful Good
Down: Azer Raider, Justice Archon
Up: Sacred Watcher, Warforged Bodyguard
Chaotic Good
Down: Elf Pyromancer
Up: Wand Expert
Lawful Evil
Down: Azer Raider, Dark Naga, Gauth
Chaotic Evil
Down: Abyssal Maw
Up: Death Slaad
I'm sure that the WotDQ pieces will stir this up quite a bit more.
Dave | |
Knowledge Arcana editor issues 5-9, Phoenix Lore Magazine editor, assistant editor for Rite Publishing;
My Trade Thread and My Reference Thread; Winner of WBC IV, IX and XIII; Rule #0: bshugg is always right! | |
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ruhk69
Warrior
205 Posts
| | 06/20/2006 9:28 PM |
| | I think with the raising of the Sacred Watchers you will see the Zak Rak get in there for LE. I'm not so sure the Wand Expert will make it or that the Gauth will go down. I agree with the rest, though. Do we know when it will be updated? | |
The Waterboy. Proud member of Team Amish. | |
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Hero of Skirmish
doubtofbuddha
Commander
3371 Posts
| | 06/20/2006 10:03 PM |
| | Working on that right now. | |
I am not gone. | |
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Grey Dragon
Sneak
75 Posts
| | 06/20/2006 11:39 PM |
| Not that anyone should care ([)]), but here's my guesses:
LG:
Azer Raider-- When was the last time you saw one of these in a band? Downgraded to Extended, possibly even eliminated.
Cleric of Moradin-- Not seen a whole lot recently, and the new Cleric of Syereth (with Legion's Shield of Faith) won't help matters. Probably eliminated.
Sacred Watcher-- All over the place recently, both in dedicated SWarm bands and as support for Maruts and the like. Pretty much a lock for promotion to the Core toolkit.
Warforged Bodyguard-- Proven to be a worthy companion to the Marut. Likely to make it into the Core.
Arcane Ballista-- Tricky to use, but very effective in skilled hands. It'll at least make Extended, quite possibly Core.
Iron Golem-- Bands tying this guy to Moradin can be fairly effective. A near-certain addition to the Extended Toolkit.
Mephling Pyromancer-- Recruited by the Couatl, he can greatly assist LG by improving the mobility of Ballistae, Maruts, Standardbearers or others. Probably makes the Extended list.
CG:
Elf Pyromancer-- Couatls and the Dragon Shrine have kept energy damage to a minimal level recently, devaluing this guy's protective spells. That, along with competition from his Mephling counterpart, could knock him down to the Extended list.
Mephling Pyromancer-- Ironically not as useful in his home faction as he is to the Lawful side, but still has potential. Good candidate for the Extended toolkit.
Dragon Totem Hero-- Bringing Dragons into CG has lots of potential, especially with WotDQ adding a boatload of new options to the mix. Also plays well with Xen'drik Champs. I think he's worthy of the Extended kit.
Half-Ogre Barbarian-- Popular choice with the Brass Samurai; I'd expect this guy to join her in the Extended toolkit.
Wand Expert-- Not incredible, but useful enough in a few cases. Probably merits inclusion in the Extended kit.
Xen'drik Champion-- A deceptively useful finesse piece, especially with his good buddy the Dragon Totem Hero. Should make the Extended toolkit.
LE:
Azer Raider-- MIA for a while, just like in LG. Dropped to Extended or eliminated entirely.
Dark Naga-- With the decline of Beholders and Gauths, this guy is less appealing. Probably down to Extended.
Gauth-- Running this guy is a pretty big gamble lately, as Constructs and Fire Resistance are all over the place. He probably drops to Extended.
Shuluth, Archvillain-- Shuluth + beaters has done pretty well, possibly well enough to promote the illithid into the Core.
CE:
Abyssal Maw-- Not seeing a whole lot of action these days. Probably dropped to the Extended kit.
I'm not nearly as familiar with the Evil factions as I am with the Good ones, so rather than risk putting my foot in my mouth, I've limited my comments on them to the few that I feel sufficiently informed about. Anyway, like I said, there's no real reason why anyone should care about my thoughts on something like this, but I've never been one to let lack of knowledge prevent me from being an expert on a subject. [:p] | |
"Life is short. Death is shorter."-- motto of the Halfling Assassin Squad | |
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doranur
Warrior
180 Posts
| | 06/21/2006 5:45 AM |
| | elf pyro should remain extended. the couatl proves exactly how useful elemental resistances are. | |
-Doranur
join the revolution! down with round/turn fascism! viva la resistance! | |
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robbdaman
Underboss
2380 Posts
| | 06/21/2006 9:24 AM |
| Half-Ogre Barbarian and Xen'drik Champion were already added to the CG list, Jesse just never updated it or cared to. [:p]
As far as other pieces there are definately some that will be lowered in value/use/desire specifically due to the Couatl itself. Until every faction has a reasonable mini with countersong that is.
Many of the filler figures, such as those that are 5 pointers have seemed to have been eliminated in part to the 8 figure format and the advent of no out of command speed 2. Azer Raiders and Abyssal Maws don't offer the way too easy tile grabbing capabilities of the Timber Wolf. This was my big problem with the move to no speed 2 and as I predicted before War Drums rules were in effect the Timber Wolf is pretty much in every warband that has 5 points to spend on filler.
R~ | |
Champion of the Titan
******************************************************************************************************************************************************
Successful trades with: Tickparasite, Iyceman, Faragdar The Wise's friend, avrivah, Drakkengi, brucemc, Krush, maniacal_mini_monger, hung4treason, Gandy, NarlethDrider, Kunimatyu, etc, etc, blah, blah, blah..... | |
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Foxman
Sergeant
417 Posts
Calgary, AB, Canada
| | 06/21/2006 11:49 AM |
| Pre WotDQ LG Toolkit changes:
Azer Raider - Out of toolkit (5 point slot goes Timberwolf)
Aspect of Moradin - up to Core (with IronG - good titan commander)
Cleric of Moradin - out of toolkit (not used)
Medium Earth Elemental - Out of toolkit (not used)
Sacred Watcher - Up to core (very used)
Hill Dwarf Warrior - down to extended (good piece less used though)
Dwarf Artificer - Add to Extended (anti-construct tech + LSoF)
Iron Golem - Add to Extended (w/AoM)
Sword Archon - add to extended (titan commander, squishy but works well with sacred watchers)
Justice Archon - Down to extended (Not used as much
Cleric of Lathander - add to extended (Maybe? - anti sacred watcher)
Warpriest of Moradin - add to extended (Good commander raiting and effect)
Arcane Ballista - Add to extended (uses with Coutal)
Mephling Pryomancer - add to extended (Maybe? fly may help, High cost to bring in) | |
It would be very unlikely for unlikely events not to occur.
- J. A. Paulos "Innumeracy" | |
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XenoZephyr
Underboss
1083 Posts
| | 06/21/2006 4:00 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by doubtofbuddha
Working on that right now.
Cool! Looking forward to it!
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IanB
Commander
3112 Posts
| | 06/21/2006 4:06 PM |
| | Justice archon down to extended is nuts, IMO. | |
Anson on WotC boards | |
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Hero of Skirmish
doubtofbuddha
Commander
3371 Posts
| | 06/21/2006 4:12 PM |
| No one has been completely correct about their assumptions so far.
Oh, and IanB is right. The Justice Archon isn't going anywhere.
Though, Foxman's list did remind me I needed to add the Sword Archon. Whoops! [:I] | |
I am not gone. | |
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Felagund
Sergeant
922 Posts
| | 06/21/2006 4:27 PM |
| | Ballista is definitely core. | |
Champion of Gnomes | |
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Eliminator53
Sergeant
628 Posts
| | 06/21/2006 4:39 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Felagund
Ballista is definitely core.
Says he who has qualified twice w/ it [:D]
Seriously, the Ballista deserves to be metioned in core. Will be even better when the War Weaver comes out. | |
Champion of Tavern Stripper
Knight of Knights
Squire of Death Giants
Somethin-or-another of Big Arse Swords | |
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djtool
Sergeant
584 Posts
Crystal MN, USA
| | 06/21/2006 4:59 PM |
| Dark naga probably should just disappear. Not only are their not any competetive abberations for this guy to help (200 play), he also doesn't make those available into something to be considered. I don't think the spells are enough forget that or his commander rating of 3.
Sacred watcher is a no brainer.
I would say bodyguard is 'extended' as he's succeeded in a couple bands, but has not yet proved to be universally useful.
I think Zak Rak should only be extended as your average user (all of us w/out Human Blackguard) is fielding a commander rating of 5 max. +12 to MC's isn't that hot and chill touch is too situational as there's only one competitive undead piece it'll work on.
I think ballista can go either way. Right now i'd say extended because you're not fielding him without couatl. Maybe after WoTDQ though its stock will rise due to war weaver. | |
Champion of: Brain in a Jar | |
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IanB
Commander
3112 Posts
| | 06/21/2006 5:13 PM |
| | If we approach the toolkit as a guide for players, though, the dark naga has a role even if it isn't being chosen that frequently - for players who can't get a rakshasa, the dark naga is the next best thing, it seems to me. | |
Anson on WotC boards | |
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Felagund
Sergeant
922 Posts
| | 06/21/2006 5:29 PM |
| Dark Naga's biggest problem was the prevalence of Helmed Horrors. With their decline in popularity, the Naga should be better, if anything.
If Sacred Watchers are core, then Zakya Rakshasa should be core as well, since he's LE's best response to them.
What does Couatl dependence have to do with whether Ballista is core? The Couatl itself is core, so it's not like he's dragging the Ballista down. Marut is never played without Couatl either, but that didn't stop him from making core. | |
Champion of Gnomes | |
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Wish
Sergeant
399 Posts
| | 06/21/2006 6:16 PM |
| The hill dwarf warrior will probably be gone or perhaps downgraded with the WotDQ changes. The aasimar fighter is better in almost every respect. Same hp, attack, damage, speed and level. Better AC. And better special abilities (extra damage vs chaotic and 3 energy resists vs save +4). And it's in the same price slot.
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SneakyJoeKDB
Sergeant
593 Posts
Utah
| | 06/21/2006 6:32 PM |
| Dark Naga should stay core, despite its small showing it did qualify top 4 at 2 qualifiers that I know of.
Balista is definetly core material.
Death Slaad accompanied by the Blue Slaad have proven to be core material.
Archmage is core, much on the same level as the Balista.
Just my 2 cents. I look forward to seeing the actual results, and thank you Doubt and everyone else who takes the time to put this tool kit together.
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"Like a thief in the Night"
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robbdaman
Underboss
2380 Posts
| | 06/21/2006 6:43 PM |
| I didn't really make any predictions because I already know I'll disagree with you about some things. [:p] I do feel that there are a few pieces that people are wanting that I'd personally place in what I call the "expanded" toolkit. For instance Iron Golem even with the Aspect of Moradin is still very slow and not the most optimum choice.
R~ | |
Champion of the Titan
******************************************************************************************************************************************************
Successful trades with: Tickparasite, Iyceman, Faragdar The Wise's friend, avrivah, Drakkengi, brucemc, Krush, maniacal_mini_monger, hung4treason, Gandy, NarlethDrider, Kunimatyu, etc, etc, blah, blah, blah..... | |
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memphisto
Warrior
213 Posts
| | 06/21/2006 6:44 PM |
| I would hope Shuluth gets some love, but as it says in his signature, Doubt just wants to keep me down. [:p]
Warforged bodyguard is money. Core in my book. Same with ballista. | |
Completed trades: arbados
Completed 23 trades on Hordelings www.hordelings.com - http://www.hordelings.com/directory/profile.php?user_id=429 | |
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Gloom_
Sergeant
583 Posts
| | 06/21/2006 7:00 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Felagund
Dark Naga's biggest problem was the prevalence of Helmed Horrors. With their decline in popularity, the Naga should be better, if anything.
Dark Naga works as a good comamnder for multi-Horror builds.. it works both ways. | |
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Zyla
Underboss
1201 Posts
| | 06/21/2006 7:06 PM |
| | Warpriest of Moradin might get bumped up as it works good with the Slaughtersonte Eviscerator, which may replace the Marut. | |
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Vrecknidj
Warlord
10493 Posts
United States
| | 06/21/2006 7:12 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Zyla
Warpriest of Moradin might get bumped up as it works good with the Slaughtersonte Eviscerator, which may replace the Marut.
Replace?
Dave | |
Knowledge Arcana editor issues 5-9, Phoenix Lore Magazine editor, assistant editor for Rite Publishing;
My Trade Thread and My Reference Thread; Winner of WBC IV, IX and XIII; Rule #0: bshugg is always right! | |
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Hero of Skirmish
doubtofbuddha
Commander
3371 Posts
| | 06/22/2006 7:09 AM |
| | Shuluth is already in the extended toolkit. | |
I am not gone. | |
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Sean-Khan
Commander
2731 Posts
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memphisto
Warrior
213 Posts
| | 06/22/2006 8:22 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by doubtofbuddha
Shuluth is already in the extended toolkit.
I know. My thoughts are grandiose, however - core.[:D] | |
Completed trades: arbados
Completed 23 trades on Hordelings www.hordelings.com - http://www.hordelings.com/directory/profile.php?user_id=429 | |
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Vrecknidj
Warlord
10493 Posts
United States
| | 06/22/2006 8:38 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Sean-Khan
I'd say Battle Plate Marshall enters the game. Granting Tordek a move action is going to be pretty hot, as well as bonus damage and Commander 7. He's pretty survivable too.
I'm still trying to figure out how to round out this band. Those two take up about half; so do we then treat Tordek as a low-cost titan and try to build the band around making him a long-lasting tank (i.e. Bodyguard, healers, Couatl, etc.) or do we treat him as a high-cost beater and try to add some beaters?
But, yes, if the combo turns out to be effective, BPM might very well make it in.
Dave | |
Knowledge Arcana editor issues 5-9, Phoenix Lore Magazine editor, assistant editor for Rite Publishing;
My Trade Thread and My Reference Thread; Winner of WBC IV, IX and XIII; Rule #0: bshugg is always right! | |
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Hero of Skirmish
doubtofbuddha
Commander
3371 Posts
| | 06/22/2006 9:29 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by memphisto
I know. My thoughts are grandiose, however - core.[:D]
While Shuluth is nice, I am not sure he has really proven himself to be good enough for core yet. Currently the Constructed Toolkit Working Group agrees with me. | |
I am not gone. | |
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Foxman
Sergeant
417 Posts
Calgary, AB, Canada
| | 06/22/2006 11:34 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by doubtofbuddha
Oh, and IanB is right. The Justice Archon isn't going anywhere.
Well if the Cleric of Yondall is staying tier 1 then I guess the Justice Archon should be up there too (sigh).
I would argue more for moving the CoY down to extended - its only right in a few circumstance as opposed to a general purpose figure. If CoY is core then the Dwarven Artificer should be core as well... | |
It would be very unlikely for unlikely events not to occur.
- J. A. Paulos "Innumeracy" | |
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Hero of Skirmish
doubtofbuddha
Commander
3371 Posts
| | 06/22/2006 11:45 AM |
| Cleric of Yondalla is LG's cheapest commander, and combines a good commander effect with, a magic weapon, and a respectable commander rating. It is efficient for what it does.
The Dwarf Artificer is not a commander, is only marginally useful in most warbands, and is not efficient for what it does. I may add the Dwarf Artificer to Extended. | |
I am not gone. | |
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kgradert13
Sergeant
909 Posts
| | 06/22/2006 11:48 AM |
| In winning bands around here, I see the cleric of Yondalla far more then I see the artificer.
Now, in general, I see the Artificer more often, but not in the winning warbands. | |
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Hero of Skirmish
doubtofbuddha
Commander
3371 Posts
| | 06/22/2006 11:51 AM |
| | Yes, the Dwarf Artificer is popular (in part because the Legion's Shield of Faith is sexy), but that doesn't mean he is super efficient. He has his place, but it isn't Core material. | |
I am not gone. | |
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nedleeds
Warrior
240 Posts
| | 06/22/2006 12:42 PM |
| | And honestly I like the GMW and Rust almost as much as the LSoF. | |
Champion of Zarak - Evil Half-Orc Assassin | |
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Vrecknidj
Warlord
10493 Posts
United States
| | 06/22/2006 12:46 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by doubtofbuddha
Yes, the Dwarf Artificer is popular (in part because the Legion's Shield of Faith is sexy), but that doesn't mean he is super efficient. He has his place, but it isn't Core material.
He was a very nice piece to have against the piles and piles of Maruts that I had been playing against throughout April and May. He more than paid for his cost by the time he finally got around to rusting something. He was also quite nice against that odd Helmed Horror I ran into.
But, as the meta has shifted away from 40% Marut bands (thank the gods), he's not nearly as useful anymore. I certainly don't think he's core material because his usefulness is too heavily meta-dependent.
Dave | |
Knowledge Arcana editor issues 5-9, Phoenix Lore Magazine editor, assistant editor for Rite Publishing;
My Trade Thread and My Reference Thread; Winner of WBC IV, IX and XIII; Rule #0: bshugg is always right! | |
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Foxman
Sergeant
417 Posts
Calgary, AB, Canada
| | 06/22/2006 3:02 PM |
| But still a piece for extended toolkit.
Although the Marut is no longer played *as much* they are still out there! As well as Helmed Horror's, and with the SSE (the cutting block) coming in QotDQ, one more construct. If anybody gets the IG up and running well then the artificer will pay his way again. | |
It would be very unlikely for unlikely events not to occur.
- J. A. Paulos "Innumeracy" | |
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Foxman
Sergeant
417 Posts
Calgary, AB, Canada
| | 06/22/2006 3:03 PM |
| Its harder to judge CG because in the current meta its much less played so there is less sample to draw on.
Anyways here are my thoughts... (Note this is still Pre WotDQ)
Celestial Pegasus - its more techy than an outright hitter - should it move to extended? not sure
Elf Pyromancer - Move to exteneded - Although its a strong piece, the number of fire resistant pieces out there has gone up lately. This trend continues on into WotDQ
Wolf/Timber Wolf - the timber wolf has better stats and should be listed by itself. The Wolf should be in extended with pointers to the GCR
Crow Shaman - Move to Core - Snakes swiftness combined with some of the titans is very deadly - use single or in pairs. Cats grace can be handy as well.
Elf Stalker - Remove from Extended - the GCR or the steelheart archer both fill the same slot and the elf stalker cannot match either.
Nebin - Add to extended
Wand Expert - add to extended
Xendrick Champ - add to extended
Dragon Totem Hero - add to extended
Drizzt - add to extended
War chanter/voice of battle - add to extended | |
It would be very unlikely for unlikely events not to occur.
- J. A. Paulos "Innumeracy" | |
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IanB
Commander
3112 Posts
| | 06/22/2006 3:05 PM |
| | The cleric of Yondalla is clearly a core piece, I think. I think it is clearly one of the best 4 or 5 commanders in LG. | |
Anson on WotC boards | |
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Pegasus Knight
Sergeant
896 Posts
| | 06/22/2006 4:46 PM |
| To respond to Foxman's thoughts:
Elf Stalker: Agreed. It offers nothing over either of these pieces aside from Magic Damage and hitrate compared to the Graycloak, which has been a determining factor in absolutely no cases. "Legolas" unfortunately should be eliminated.
Elf Pyromancer: Probably Extended, yes. The shift to 200/8 and several other factors have hurt this caster significantly; a Fireball ain't what it used to be.
Wolf/Timber Wolf split listings: People can read indicators on which is more useful between these two in a shared entry, there's no problem with that.
Crow Shaman: Agreed. He really works well with Berserkers, Wemics, and Aspect of Kord.
Nebin, Wand Expert, Xen'drik, Dragon Totem: Generally agreed on these additions.
Drizzt: More data is needed. Tordek might well be the piece to make him break through to competitiveness, but perhaps not. While it's impressive Drizzt took third at a Qualifier under Slartibart's playing, I don't know if that alone is enough to return him to the Toolkit. Definitely need more info on the new Tordek before Drizzt's a shoe-in for returning.
War Chanter: Strongly agree as an Extended choice.
Voice of Battle: Disagree. War Chanter offers better advantages in virtually all cases.
(Edited to give more detail) Celestial Pegasus: I disagree on moving it to Extended. Core Toolkit doesn't mean it has to be in every CG band, just that it should be considered in them, and this piece has what it takes for that. High speed, passable melee damage, good Save and HP, resistances, and a Large base that lets it control battlefield-flow. It's definitely worthy of Core, and you're making the Pegasi sad for doubting their worthiness and dedication to the cause...
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- Irrationally Fanatical Champion of Pegasus-mounted cavalry
- Proud member of Team Low Tier Beasting: I play CG as my main faction!
- Garland, TX 2006 Qualifier Champion
My trading thread: http://www.maxminis.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=19725 | |
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Hero of Skirmish
doubtofbuddha
Commander
3371 Posts
| | 06/22/2006 4:59 PM |
| At this point, with all of CG's low save beaters, I am thinking that my most likely position for the Warchanter is core..
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I am not gone. | |
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Foxman
Sergeant
417 Posts
Calgary, AB, Canada
| | 06/22/2006 5:11 PM |
| Pegasus Knight - Your biased for the Celestial Pegasus! Admit it! (LOL) You're right it should likely stay in Core - I was wafling about moving it down to extened by I can't stand to make baby Pegasi cry ;)
If warchanter is core, voice of battle is extended. Improved countersong... Plus cure of impending blades helps open up the tin cans - a decent confusion spell and costs a couple of points less. Also being a follower and not a commander can have advantages... | |
It would be very unlikely for unlikely events not to occur.
- J. A. Paulos "Innumeracy" | |
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Felagund
Sergeant
922 Posts
| | 06/22/2006 6:25 PM |
| Pegasus: Core.
Elf Pyromancer: Move to extended. Fireball isn't nearly as good as it once was. Protection/Resistance from elements are still good, but very conditional.
Elf Stalker: I agree, he should be tossed because either GCR or SHA will be better in pretty much any situation.
Crow Shaman: Extended only. Not useful in enough situations to be core.
Nebin: Nope, not even extended.
Wand Expert: Yep, add to extended.
Xen'drik: Yep, add to extended.
Dragon Totem Hero: Not quite worth it yet.
Drizzt: Not until Tordek comes out.
Warchanter: Core
Voice of Battle: Nope. If you need Improved Countersong, you may as well pay the extra point for Warchanter. +4 save beats Curse of Impending Blades.
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Champion of Gnomes | |
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