| | You are not authorized to post a reply. |
| | Author | Messages | |
Hero of Skirmish
doubtofbuddha
Commander
3371 Posts
    
 | | 06/26/2006 4:10 PM |
| By Jesse Dean (doubtofbuddha)
Special Thanks To: Christopher Groves (ChristopherGroves), Mike Derry (derry), and Pat Lynch (lynchpt)
This has been quite a qualifier season for Lawful Good. At the beginning many people bemoaned its position, assuming that it was in third place behind Lawful Evil and Chaotic Evil. Even I, at first, was a bit pessimistic about what War Drums brought to the table for the faction. (Though I quickly changed my mind.) It turns out that these initial impressions were incorrect, and Lawful Good has proven to be the most powerful faction right now, with over 50% of the qualifying and winning bands being part of this faction.
One interesting trend that has emerged is the increasing position of Lawful Good as the “techy” faction. While it doesn’t have the absolute best tech, it has the widest variety of good tech, allowing it to create a wide variety of permutations even within the context of some of the more popular archetypes such as Githzerai Monks, Titan/Couatl, Ballista/Couatl, and Sacred Watchers swarms.
Core Toolkit
These are the “must have” pieces for Lawful Good competitive play. If you wish to build around the pieces are at the bleeding edge of efficiency and the most useful for competitive play, then these are the pieces you should acquire. They have a place in proven competitive bands, and are likely to have a similar place for some time to come. The number of pieces included at the end of the stat block are only those that are likely to be useful. Moving beyond that value may have the potential to create interesting bands, but has yet to prove competitive.
Aasimar Fighter (Lawful Good; 4 points; War of the Dragon Queen; 2)
The Aasimar Fighter combines well with the Cleric of Dol Arrah, giving it fearlessness, though with 15 hit points there are few circumstances where the Aasimar Fighter will be able to take advantage of it. Its true benefit, in comparison to similarly priced Lawful Good pieces, is its ability to hit chaotic units for 10 damage. While its speed 4 limits its ability to be in the location it needs to be to deal this damage, this is common of most Lawful Good units in this point range.
Aramil, Adventurer (Lawful Good/Chaotic Good; 13 points; Giants of Legend; 1)
Aramil is a useful support caster thanks to both its inexpensive price and its useful spells: magic missile and ray of enfeeblement. The rays of enfeeblement are typically the most useful of its array of spells, nerfing dragons almost completely, and hurting any figure that relies on melee damage to dominate. Its magic missiles are also useful, especially in knocking down the last 5 hit points off of 65 hit points beaters and in allowing an early lead in activations or points.
Arcane Ballista (Lawful Good; 48 points; War Drums; 1)
The best ranged unit in the game, the Arcane Ballista provides something Lawful Good has always lacked: a reason for enemy warbands to come to it. The Arcane Ballista’s competitiveness is tied directly to that of the Couatl, as the Couatl allows it to reposition itself and still fire of its deadly bolts. The Arcane Ballista has proven to combine well with other, proven Titan blockers (such as the Aspect of Kord and Marut) and each one brings different benefits to the table.
Aspect of Kord (Chaotic Good; 65 points; Underdark; 1)
The Aspect of Kord, which can be brought into Lawful Good via the Couatl, provides a fast, hard hitting low-level titan that gains especially well from some key synergies that Lawful Good can bring into play: reasonable commander ratings and the presence of snake’s swiftness on one of its most competitive pieces. On rounds where the Aspect of Kord moves first this allows him to move up to a fairly large portion of the board and hit once for 40, and again for another 30 with a near-complete certainty of being able to successfully pull this off thanks to his high attack bonus. Like most
Cleric of Dol Arrah (Lawful Good; 45 points; Angelfire; 1)
The second commander 7 released for the game, the Cleric of Dol Arrah has a host of special abilities and spells that make him a useful commander. Her 30 hit point heals are perhaps the only truly activation-worthy heals in the game, her outsider banishment is useful, especially with the continually increasing quantity of competitive outsiders in the game, her aura of protection is a great bonus against evil warbands, and her divine retributions are just icing on the cake. Her speed 6 also allows her to be placed where she needs to be in order to cast her spells as well as to keep up with the ever-increasing speeds of the more competitive figures in the Lawful Good arsenal.
Cleric of Order (Lawful Good; 24 points; Harbinger; 1)
The Cleric of Order has long stood as one of Lawful Good’s better commanders. With a commander rating of five and a number of useful spells for a mere 24 points, he provides the most bang for your buck as far as low-cost commanders go. Also, while his AC buff is useful, his save buffs are becoming increasingly useful with the rise of high DC effects. With many save 10 titans or pseudo-titans, the save buff makes them almost fearless as long as he stays alive.
Cleric of Yondalla (Lawful Good; 14 points; Harbinger; 1)
The Cleric of Yondalla’s claim for fame lies in the fact that it is the cheapest commander that LG has access too. Unfortunately he is slow and weak and very vulnerable to commander assassination. He works particularly well in combination with the Marut, allowing it to gain magic damage, and allowing for the inclusion of a maximum amount of other figures when combined with the Couatl.
Couatl (Lawful Good; 42 points; Deathknell; 2)
THE definitive Lawful Good commander at this time, it is difficult to consider a Lawful Good warband that does not include the Couatl. Its commander effect is excellent, giving Lawful Good bands the ability to withstand fireballs, various breath weapons, and line of sight energy attacks with some ease, resulting in their relatively slow speed to be less of a hindrance than it would be in any other faction. Add to that its ability to generate 15 points of automatic sonic damage to a target, heal for 10, and allow another member of its warband to get an additional attack makes the Couatl both the best commander Lawful Good has access to and the best support spell caster. Its only real weakness is its commander rating which results, in many warbands running the Couatl with a less pricey secondary commander such as the Cleric of Order or Cleric of Yondalla. He combines particularly well with titans such as the Aspect of Kord and Marut, allowing them to double their damage potential per round.
Githzerai Monk (Lawful Good; 34 points; Underdark; 4)
The second truly competitive mid-ranged hitter for Lawful Good, four things make the Githzerai Monk effective were previous mid-ranged Lawful Good hitters were not. First off, he moves over twice as fast as Lawful Good hitters in previous eras, and faster than most hitters even in the relatively speedy Chaotic Good and Chaotic Evil factions. Second off, his Armor Class of 25 makes up for his relatively low hit points (55), especially when combined with something like the Couatl that gives him protection from auto-damage. Third off, he has more (three) stuns than any previously released monk with a DC (18) that is very respectable even against creatures with a reasonably high save. Fourth off, he can automatically hit once, allowing for a crit against anything not immune to critical hits. His big weaknesses is against units immune to stunning attack. This can be avoided to some degree, but it remains a challenge.
Hill Dwarf Warrior (Lawful Good; 4 points; Aberrations; 1)
An effective fodder piece, the Hill Dwarf Warrior especially benefits from the presence of the Couatl and the increase of energy damage in the metagame. Its saves are phenomenal for its point cost, allowing it the capability to avoid entirely even high DC effects like a chraal’s breath weapon.
Human Commoner (Lawful Good; 3 points; Harbinger; 4)
Once a near-useless unit thanks to the onerous Difficult 7 restrictions it suffered under, the Human Commoner now has a definite place in Lawful Good warbands as the only 3 point Speed 6 figure available. While the Timber Wolf and Warforged Scout serve as better victory area grabbers, the Human Commoner can perform that role in warbands that do not have the points for either figure.
Jozan, Cleric of Pelor (Lawful Good/Chaotic Good; 4 points; Harbinger; 1)
An excellent fodder choice, Jozan brings a useful command and cure light wounds to the table, allowing him to provide a minimal amount of spell power or even allow an arcane ballista to fire while he is present.
Justice Archon (Lawful Good; 32 points; Angelfire; 2)
The Justice Archon revolutionized the tournament capabilities of Lawful Good warbands, sitting as the first cost-efficient hitter in the 30-45 point range. Its Justice Strike is the primary reason behind this rise to prominence, allowing it to damage an opposing miniature at the same level that it could inflict damage, resulting in it be an excellent piece to counter high damage warbands. The fact that it has flight, DR 5, and bold (fearless when under command) added up to a nice combination of abilities that allowed it to be competitive with the chaotic evil and chaotic good hitters. Its weaknesses are those its attack bonus (+10/+5) and its level (6), both of which have made it less competitive against today’s competitive high armor class builds. Fortunately, Lawful Good’s mid-range titans (the Aspect of Kord and Marut) have the attack bonuses that the Justice Archons lack, allowing them to serve as key support hitters against the high damage low armor class bands that these titans have trouble against.
Marut (Lawful Good; 74 points; Underdark; 1)
A hard hitting titan who rarely, if ever, misses, the Marut is one of the few constructs that does not suffer from a commander-based restriction. Combined with its spell-resistance, blind sight, DR, and general ability to deal damage, it makes a perfectly serviceable titan, especially when combined with the Couatl and appropriate side-kicks in the 30-40 point range. His main weakness is his poor hp : cost ratio, which is barely less than 1:1. This is made up for slightly with his high AC and immunity to crits, but it is still a definite weakness. The Warforged Bodyguard and pieces like the Sacred Watcher have reduced this weakness, allowing the Marut to become a very successful warband in the current metagame environment. While counters certainly exist, they are not enough to prevent it from being one of the more efficient titan options currently available.
Mialee, Elf Wizard (Lawful Good/Chaotic Good; 6 points; 1)
The cheapest source of magic weapon in the game, Mialee allows high cost lawful good units to damage creatures protected by damage reduction. Her use has only increased as effective non-magical and DR-based creatures have increased in frequency. Still, she should only be used when another caster with magic weapon doesn’t provide a better fit for the warband.
Rikka, Angelic Avenger (Chaotic Good; 31 points; Underdark; 1)
Rikka serves a comparable but in many ways different role in Lawful Good warbands than the Justice Archon. Rikka and the Justice Archon both are flying hitters with damage reduction and a low level, but there the similarities end. The Justice Archon is useful primarily as a near-fearless anti-chaotic piece that is particularly effective against the low armor class high damage beaters that are frequently found in those factions. Rikka, is more useful as an efficient striker, starting behind enemy lines (if necessary) to strike at vulnerable pieces or setting up flanks with less accurate pieces for the purposes of causing damage that is far more assured than that which is available for the low attack bonus Justice Archons. Her use depends largely on the metagame and how much versatility you want in your warband. If you are expecting frequent Lawful Evil or Lawful Good builds, than Rikka is more useful. If you are expecting a Chaotic-dominant metagame, then the Justice Archon has more staying power. Note that she can only be typically brought into Lawful Good with the Couatl.
Sacred Watcher (Lawful Good; 18 points; War Drums; 6)
Lawful Good’s first incorporeal creature, the Sacred Watcher exists as the second incorporeal undead to have any level of competitiveness (the first being Chaotic Evil’s cursed spirit.) The Sacred Watcher combines a reasonably low cost, a good armor class, a reasonable attack bonus for 10 damage, and high hit points (for an incorporeal creature) into a combination that allows for a number of interesting options for Lawful Good. It serves as both a useful tech hunter and support hitter, combining a decent AC and hit point total with the incorporeal ability, allowing it to be a frustrating counter to many pieces.
Standard Bearer (Lawful Good; 10 points; Giants of Legend; 1)
Another reasonable support piece, the Standard Bearer for allows for a commander effect and rating to cover a much larger portion of the board while protecting units within 6 with a countersong. This is proving to be increasingly effective with the presence of more useful commander effects, allowing for both protection against and extension of these commander effects to a wider part of the board. The Standard Bearer is particularly useful if you are relying on energy damage in a Couatl-heavy metagame or if you are dealing with a monk heavy metagame.
Timber Wolf (Any; 5 points; Deathknell; 2)
The Timber Wolf serves a similar purpose as the Wolf in every band that does not include the Greycloak Ranger. It is tougher, with a higher attack bonus and level than a regular wolf, and serves as a great speed 10 tile grabber. With the change in the out of command movement rules, the Timber Wolf has increased viability as a tile grabber, as other competitive options lack the speed and hit points for the cost. The Timber wolf is generally an inferior choice to the Warforged Scout, but there are instances where the points do not work out in the Warforged Scout’s favor. In those instances the Timber Wolf is a good choice.
Tordek, Dwarf Champion (Lawful Good; 59 points; War of the Dragon Queen; 1)
An effective mini-titan, Tordek serves as a more cost-efficient option for warbands that wish to explore options that the Aspect of Kord or Marut provide. Tordek is the only efficient unit in the game that provides ghost touch, serving as an excellent counter for incorporeal units such as the Sacred Watchers. Its AC bonus against giants allows it to withstand competitive giant pieces, particularly when combined with AC boosting units. Its attack bonus is high enough that it can consistently hit even the highest Armor Class units in the game.
Warforged Bodyguard (Lawful Good; 32 points; War Drums; 2)
The Warforged Bodyguard is Lawful Good’s new 32 point option, and provides a nice alternative to bands that would benefit more from its defensive capabilities than the offensive capabilities that the Justice Archon or Rikka provides. It combines particularly well with Lawful Good’s competitive titans, allowing for pieces like the Aspect of Kord, Marut, or Sword Archon to last longer than they would normally while still providing some offensive potential.
Warforged Scout (Lawful Good; 8 points; War Drums; 1)
Lawful Good’s premier victory area grabber, the Warforged Scout allows for almost guaranteed first round victory points. Its sturdiness, hide ability, and defensive capabilities combine to make it the best choice for lawful good builds in its point range.
Young Master (Lawful Good; 43 points; Giants of Legend; 1)
The Young Master is a specialty commander, who typically only works when combined with Githzerai Monks. The combination is effective enough, however, to allow for it to be a prominent piece within the larger competitive environment. The Young Master himself is not competitive without pieces like the Githzerai Monk, with it he allows the potential for a competitive theme warband. His speed, 10 damage attacks, and ability to heal himself, and his personal stuns allow for him to be useful within this context.
Extended Toolkit
These are the “almost there” pieces, those that either were used in competitive warbands in the recent past but have since fallen out of favor due to metagame shifts, or those that have the potential to be competitive but have yet to be proven. They are useful to acquire for what they might potentially bring to the table, but are not needed for competitive play.
Azer Raider (Lawful Good/Lawful Evil; 5 points; Harbinger; 2)
The Azer Raider is a decent 5 point piece, and serves both as an adequate fodder option and a decent screener against fire units. His use has decreased lately with the removal of the Speed 2 rule, which allows for the better choice of the Timber Wolf, and the presence of the Couatl, which allows many LG pieces to serve as adequate fire screeners.
Aspect of Moradin (Lawful Good; 93 points; War Drums; 1)
A powerful titan-commander, the Aspect of Moradin suffers from its ability to consistently deal damage. While its damage, ranged attack ability, and Cleave are all decent, its low attack bonuses prevent it from being consistent as it needs to be against other high armor class units. Despite this, it serves as an interesting option in dual titan builds or ones with it serving as the titan core of multiple hitters.
Cleric of Lathander (Lawful Good; 27 points; Archfiends; 1)
The Cleric of Lathander is a good option both in combination with the Arcane Ballista as well as in undead heavy metagames. The Cleric’s turn undeads allow it to easily get rid of Sacred Watchers from a distance, while its heals serve as a way to ensure the continued survival of the units it is commanding, and its searing lights enable you to get the last bit of non-elemental damage you need on an enemy unit or to clear out blocking creatures for your arcane ballista.
Cleric of Moradin (Lawful Good; 14 points; Dragoneye; 1)
A reasonably good support piece, the Cleric of Moradin is particularly effective in boosting the armor class of two units. While this is generally useful, it frequently pales in comparison to the options provide by the Cleric of Order or Aramil.
Golden Protector (Lawful Good; 41 points; War of the Dragon Queen; 3)
The Golden Protector is an interesting tech hitter option, providing a high damage breath weapon, the first anti-evil radius effect, healing, resistances, an AC-boost vs. evil, and a pair of 15 damage pounce attacks. Unfortunately it suffers from low hit points and level, preventing it from serving as a true hitter option.
Half-Orc Paladin (Lawful Good; 48 points; Underdark; 1)
The Half-Orc Paladin is the best of Lawful Good’s damage boosting commanders, providing bonus damage against the sort of units that frequently have the most hit points: high level creatures. Unfortunately, the Half-Orc Paladin is lacking the fearless or high level hitters it needs to truly shine, but when they do it will likely be a highly effective choice.
Healer (Lawful Good/Chaotic Good; 12 points; Archfiends; 1)
One of the few effective healers in the game, the Healer provides the ability for units to survive just a little bit longer at a reasonably efficient price.
Justicator (Lawful Good/Lawful Evil; 48 points; Underdark; 3)
A mobile, paralysis-immune, high attack bonus hitter, the Justicator has potential but suffers from its high point cost. Despite this, it might be a worthy option in considering in warbands that lack a high attack bonus “can opener” such as those built around justice archons.
Large Silver Dragon (Lawful Good; 122 points; Archfiends; 1)
Once one of the best units that lawful good had access to, the Large Silver Dragon has suffered with shifts in metagame conditions. The increase in paralysis immune units, the change in the energy vulnerability rules, the decrease in figure quantity from 12 to 8, and the change to maps have all done their part in reducing the overall effectiveness of the Large Silver Dragon. It remains an interesting option, and something to consider when building warbands, but is no longer the powerful force it was at one time.
Man-at-arms (Lawful Good; 3 points; Harbinger/Aberrations; 4)
Once the standard 3-point filler for Lawful Good, he suffers both from his low speed and the increasing attack bonuses of enemy units. They are as vulnerable to breath weapons and other area effects as any other fodder, but their armor class makes very few melee attacks certain. They may be very likely, but that uncertainty is enough to make them worth their 3 points.
Slayer of Domiel (Lawful Good; 46 points; Underdark; 1)
One piece with potential to be devastating in the right warband, the Slayer of Domiel’s primary ability is its capability to score double victory points from the first creature that it kills. This can be a game winner in a timed tournament, and has the capability of completely winning said tournaments if applied to the right, high-cost opponent. Even in situations where that isn’t viable, even killing a smaller fodder piece might be enough to ensure victory in the last round of the game. On top of this, the Slayer is a reasonable competent combatant especially against evil opponents or those who are vulnerable to sneak attack damage. She has a high save, Evasion, Concealment, and the proper minimum amount of hit points for most competitive hitters (65), and a reasonable armor class (20.) Unfortunately her ability has proven to be too unreliable to be used effectively in competitive Lawful Good, builds but the potential remains.
Sword Archon (Lawful Good; 82 points; Angelfire; 1)
The Sword Archon serves as an effective titan commander option in combination with masses of fearless units. Currently the most effective of said fearless units are the Sacred Watchers, which when used in masses have proven to be competitive warband option. In addition to its damage boosting commander effect, the Sword Archon is a fast flyer with a high attack bonus high damage attack, allowing it to strike behind enemy lines at both enemy commanders and tech pieces.
Village Priest (Lawful Good; 21 points; Angelfire; 1)
The Village priest provides a nice low-cost option between the Cleric of Yondalla and the Cleric of Order. His spells are useful, providing magic weapon to hitters who either need the attack bonus (Justice Archons or Githzerai Monks) or the magic damage (Aspect of Kord, Large Silver Dragon). The bless spell is additionally useful for almost any build, with additional utility provided for those same builds that can benefit from the increased attack bonus. The Village Priest combines especially well with the Warforged Bodyguard, providing it with enough attack and defense bonuses to hit and make saves consistently.
War Weaver (Lawful Good; 33 points; War of the Dragon Queen; 1)
The War Weaver provides a number of interesting tech options for Lawful Good. Its ability to cast a mass magic weapon is particularly useful in combination with multiple units that could benefit from magic weapon such as Golden Protectors, Maruts, and Sacred Watchers. Its ability to dimension hop allows it to instantly rearrange the battlefield. Its snake swiftness allows it to ensure your hitters gain extra attacks. In combination this allows for a nice combination of proven abilities and new abilities to allow for new options for Lawful Good warbands. | |
I am not gone. | |
|
Venport
Sergeant
739 Posts
| | 06/26/2006 4:17 PM |
| | Wow not a lot of WOTDQ in this one | |
Sacramento DDM http://www.maxminis.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=16854
New world Project http://www.maxminis.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=20745
| |
| The Defenestrator
AesophDarkfable
Warlord
5628 Posts
| | 06/26/2006 4:20 PM |
| | I potentially see a place for either Syreth or Artificer in extended, but do not feel strongly enough to argue for the inclusion of either. Looks solid. No real complaints. | |
Im out- find me on Hordelings if you want to chat. | |
|
Pegasus Knight
Sergeant
896 Posts
| | 06/26/2006 4:32 PM |
| I agree with most of the inclusions, and am glad to see Jozan on the list. I should note that the Tordek entry needs a slight rewrite; the mention about Kord and Marut seems incorrectly written for what you meant to convey regarding options and point costs.
Also, the Aasimar Fighter has a factual error. They do not have 10 HP; they have 15.
Finally, do you have any interest in collaboration on a CG update of the kit? I'd be glad to offer some thoughts on this.
EDIT: Take a look at the Warforged Scout entry. You're liable to get GuyF'ed over it, though it would be hilarious to see him Hall of Shame the Toolkit Files, heheh. | |
- Irrationally Fanatical Champion of Pegasus-mounted cavalry
- Proud member of Team Low Tier Beasting: I play CG as my main faction!
- Garland, TX 2006 Qualifier Champion
My trading thread: http://www.maxminis.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=19725 | |
|
scifirules
Sergeant
354 Posts
| | 06/26/2006 4:39 PM |
| It seems a bit early to update the Toolkits, don't you think? WotDQ isn't even out yet, and we don't really know whether certain pieces will be competitive at all. I'd wait a few weeks.
| |
Check out my DDM Blog: http://scifirules.livejournal.com
"I will pay my dues when you send me my tusks!" -Strong Bad
Champion of Chainmail Equivalencies | Knight of Efficient Fodder
WotDQ Called Shot: Large Green Dragon (VINDICATED) | Blood War Called Shot: Large Brass Dragon | Unhallowed Called Shot: Skeletal Troll
| |
| Hero of Skirmish
doubtofbuddha
Commander
3371 Posts
| | 06/26/2006 4:46 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Venport
Wow not a lot of WOTDQ in this one
1) Not a lot of Lawful Good in WoTDQ
2) This set is going to have more of an impact on Epic play than Constructed. | |
I am not gone. | |
| Hero of Skirmish
doubtofbuddha
Commander
3371 Posts
| | 06/26/2006 4:49 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by scifirules
It seems a bit early to update the Toolkits, don't you think? WotDQ isn't even out yet, and we don't really know whether certain pieces will be competitive at all. I'd wait a few weeks.
Caution regarding the toolkit has been suggested in the past. I've ignored it then too. [:P]
Mostly this is a review of what was important in the most recent set. The inclusion of Lawful Good units is for the most part cautious. The Aasimar Fighter and Tordek are obviously good. They go into the Core Toolkit. The others look potentially good. They go into Extended. Other pieces may creep back up into either grouping by the end of the season. | |
I am not gone. | |
|
Gloom_
Sergeant
583 Posts
| | 06/26/2006 5:17 PM |
| | Yeah, mostly agree. Golden protectar and War Weaver might prove themselves (I think the former may well), but for now, extended is their happy home. Possibly Artificer in extended, people like him. I dunno, I never play LG much! | |
| |
|
Foxman
Sergeant
417 Posts
Calgary, AB, Canada
| | 06/26/2006 6:25 PM |
| | I agree - I think the Dwarf Artificer should be at least in the exteneded toolkit... | |
It would be very unlikely for unlikely events not to occur.
- J. A. Paulos "Innumeracy" | |
|
Foxman
Sergeant
417 Posts
Calgary, AB, Canada
| | 06/26/2006 6:34 PM |
| | PS - I might suggest removing all references to the old speed/number of figures rule. It might be confusing to new players to the game and anybody who knows the old rules is generaly already aware of the changes. | |
It would be very unlikely for unlikely events not to occur.
- J. A. Paulos "Innumeracy" | |
|
yugichat
Skirmisher
41 Posts
| | 06/26/2006 6:37 PM |
| | I think that summaries like this are useful and keep these boards alive, please keep them coming. | |
| |
|
Tried
Sergeant
501 Posts
| | 06/26/2006 7:24 PM |
| | I don't agree with 4 human commoners - I would certainly take a MaA to mix it up. Commoners get eaten by wolves, MaA much less. MaA can reach victory tiles that are 13-16 squares away (common on the popular maps) as fast as a commoner. With apologies to all involved, I would suggest 1 commoner in the toolkit, and the other 3 belong in the extended toolkit. But that's a pretty weird concept. | |
Let it be. | |
|
Remix
Skirmisher
22 Posts
| | 06/26/2006 7:42 PM |
| If you're going to put the Village Priest in the extended toolkit, you should include Arcanix Guards too.
Very solid 9 point pieces; with a special ability that will only get better with time. | |
| |
|
True_Blue
Underboss
2386 Posts
| | 06/26/2006 8:23 PM |
| | Thanks for getting this up so early doubt, its appreciated. | |
Champion of a Knight of Takhisis/Knight of Neraka | |
|
Grey Dragon
Sneak
75 Posts
| | 06/27/2006 6:14 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by doubtofbuddha
This has been quite a qualifier season for Lawful Good. At the beginning many people bemoaned its position, assuming that it was in third place behind Lawful Evil and Chaotic Evil. Even I, at first, was a bit pessimistic about what War Drums brought to the table for the faction. (Though I quickly changed my mind.) It turns out that these initial impressions were incorrect, and Lawful Good has proven to be the most powerful faction right now, with over 50% of the qualifying and winning bands being part of this faction.
In all fairness, LG's ascendance was at least partially due to something you couldn't possibly have accounted for in your predictions-- the Fields of Ruin maps, specifically the King's Road. The appearance of Forest terrain substantially benefitted the Lawful Good team in a number of ways. The direct benefit is obvious-- hiding out in the forest allowed LG's already hard-to-hit forces to send their ACs even higher. In addition, the metagame effect of the map made the use of creatures with poor attack bonuses a risky proposition. This undoubtably helped weaken the presence of many chaotic pieces, most notably the formerly-ubiquitous Hill Giant Barbarians. The LG units themselves, on the other hand, had little to fear from the Forests-- the Maruts' could hit consistently even with the cover bonus, while Gith Monks could render it irrelevant against a key piece via Unavoidable Strike. Together, this added up to a nice little boost to the LG faction.
Of course, I'm not claiming that the effectiveness of LG is due solely to the King's Road. The map did, however, provide several benefits to the faction, which could at least partially account for its better-than-expected performance lately. | |
"Life is short. Death is shorter."-- motto of the Halfling Assassin Squad | |
|
Mook_Farchings
Sneak
172 Posts
Salt Lake City
| | 06/28/2006 1:43 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by scifirules
It seems a bit early to update the Toolkits, don't you think? WotDQ isn't even out yet, and we don't really know whether certain pieces will be competitive at all. I'd wait a few weeks.
No reason to complain, especially since he does such a great job. With the stats available and all the play testing that is happening on Vassal and elsewhere, and the fact that he is right [:D], we should be grateful for the heads up with the pre-release and championships coming.
Thanks, Jesse.
| |
Champion of Human Glaiver
(Royal Guard doesn't count! ;P )
Har 80/80, Drag 60/60, Arch 60/60, GoL 72/72, Aber 60/60, DK 58/60, AngF 59/60, UD 60/60, WD 60/60, WotDQ 60/60, BW 58/60 Icons 2/5My Trade List | |
|
scifirules
Sergeant
354 Posts
| | 06/28/2006 1:51 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by doubtofbuddha
Mostly this is a review of what was important in the most recent set. The inclusion of Lawful Good units is for the most part cautious. The Aasimar Fighter and Tordek are obviously good. They go into the Core Toolkit. The others look potentially good. They go into Extended. Other pieces may creep back up into either grouping by the end of the season.
Oh, okay. Carry on! [:I]
In that case, I think the Cleric of Syreth should go in the Extended Toolkit.
| |
Check out my DDM Blog: http://scifirules.livejournal.com
"I will pay my dues when you send me my tusks!" -Strong Bad
Champion of Chainmail Equivalencies | Knight of Efficient Fodder
WotDQ Called Shot: Large Green Dragon (VINDICATED) | Blood War Called Shot: Large Brass Dragon | Unhallowed Called Shot: Skeletal Troll
| |
|
hardinjmm
Sergeant
573 Posts
Madison, WI
| | 06/28/2006 5:27 PM |
| | Is there a reason that the Arcanix Guard is not at least in the Extended toolkit? | | | |
| The Defenestrator
AesophDarkfable
Warlord
5628 Posts
| | 06/28/2006 6:14 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by hardinjmm
Is there a reason that the Arcanix Guard is not at least in the Extended toolkit?
While the Arcanix Guard is a very solid piece, I have not found nor do I know of many that have any real way to use them. They might have been much better served in 12 activations. But in a 8 activation quad band type scenario, I end up with about 12 pts left for 3 figures. They are not beefy enough to drop a 4th hitter/Couatl/CoDA type figure for. They are very nice but I just have never found a justification for including them. Id guess thats why.
Also to the earlier statement about Kings Road, LGs rise to the top has alot more to do than the Kings Road. Though it was used by some bands it didn't get a ton of use and didn't have a ton of success (a few exceptions aside). The Kings Road actually is a big cause for the rise of Archmage, but he majority of winning LG bands used Drow Outpost or other maps. | |
Im out- find me on Hordelings if you want to chat. | |
|
TianZi
Skirmisher
25 Posts
| | 06/28/2006 6:17 PM |
| Because the Arcanix Guard relies on an all ready fringe commander, the Village Priest, and is awkwardly costed at 9 points. Plus, all the metagaming I have read about doesn't include them, nor were they very popular at the qualifiers. As cool as they are, they just are not worth the points.
A VPriest and 2 AG's are 39 points and 3 acti's. Or 1 JA or WFBG and 2 3 pt fillers?
A VPriest and 3 AG's are 48 points and half your band. Or a WFBG/JA and a SW (plus 2 points) for 2 acti's?
The Arcanix Guard is the Goblin Blackblade of LG; a cool, low priced piece that requires an awkward commander and a specific situation to make it work. Perhaps there should be a Cool Pieces Toolbox full of cool pieces that aren't all that competitive? I nominate the Goblin Blackblade. | |
| |
|
Kissmykiester
Sergeant
526 Posts
| | 06/28/2006 10:56 PM |
| | I'm with the "Still kinda early" to make predictions camp. Having said that, I'm curious, can you talk through the process of how you actually pick the pieces that deserve to be in the toolkit, extended or otherwise? How much playing testing do you do? Do you do it personally, are your observations personal or factual ie. based off the constructed warbands that appear in tournaments and qualifiers? | |
Vassal Tournament Constructed Group#
1 & 2-Champion
"You are, what you do, when it counts".
-------------------------
Sucessful Trade - Pan(2), Lexander (2) Trilistria (1) | |
|
elder_basilisk
Sergeant
410 Posts
| | 06/29/2006 1:40 AM |
| They aren't as dependent upon the village priest anymore.
The war-weaver is also very good for arcanix guards--with or without the village priest. +8 for 15 (25 against spell resistant targets) is very good for 9 points. Obviously, it's got a different angle than willage priest+arcanix guards (higher damage rather than higher attack bonus), but it also has more synergy with higher end pieces (though the (effectively) mass magic weapon, dimension hop, and snakes' swiftness). If paired with a good commander (CoDA, Alusaire, Battleplate Marshal, etc), they are even fairly likely to stick around.
They're definitely worth the points. The challenge is finding the right band to put them in. (And the challenge is really finding enough activations with synergy to make them work--in 12 acts, they might well be broken). I think the war weaver is going to make that a LOT easier than it was before.
quote:
Originally posted by TianZi
Because the Arcanix Guard relies on an all ready fringe commander, the Village Priest, and is awkwardly costed at 9 points. Plus, all the metagaming I have read about doesn't include them, nor were they very popular at the qualifiers. As cool as they are, they just are not worth the points.
A VPriest and 2 AG's are 39 points and 3 acti's. Or 1 JA or WFBG and 2 3 pt fillers?
A VPriest and 3 AG's are 48 points and half your band. Or a WFBG/JA and a SW (plus 2 points) for 2 acti's?
The Arcanix Guard is the Goblin Blackblade of LG; a cool, low priced piece that requires an awkward commander and a specific situation to make it work. Perhaps there should be a Cool Pieces Toolbox full of cool pieces that aren't all that competitive? I nominate the Goblin Blackblade.
| |
| |
| 
Bert the Troll
Commander
3964 Posts
Adelaide
| | 06/29/2006 7:22 AM |
| | Good reading - Thank you DoubtofBuddha | |
"Mutton yesterday, mutton today, and blimey, if it don't look like mutton again tomorrer." Bert the Troll - The Hobbit
Semi-Secret sig business: "In the age of the internet attaching a famous name to your personal opinion to give more weight to it is a very valid strategy." - Benjamin Franklin
Champion of Epic Lolth, Orcus, & Demogorgon and bring us Asmodeus! | |
| Hero of Skirmish
doubtofbuddha
Commander
3371 Posts
| | 06/29/2006 11:15 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Kissmykiester
I'm with the "Still kinda early" to make predictions camp. Having said that, I'm curious, can you talk through the process of how you actually pick the pieces that deserve to be in the toolkit, extended or otherwise? How much playing testing do you do? Do you do it personally, are your observations personal or factual ie. based off the constructed warbands that appear in tournaments and qualifiers?
Its partially based on my own personal experiences and playtesting, partially through extensive discussion (colluding) with players who are particularly successful in tournaments, partially from looking at discussions on here, and partially just through analysis. Pieces that are proven or are very obviously good (like Tordek) are included in the Core toolkit. Pieces that are not as proven, or are new and probably good are included in extended (like the Golden Protector and War Weaver.) I am very open to updating the toolkit based on shifts and the metagame and being proven wrong about pieces. (Like the Arcane Ballista.)
The Arcanix Guard is one of those pieces. While it is pretty interesting and looks reasonably solid, I am yet to be convinced it is even extended toolkit material. While its at a nice price point for LG, I have trouble selecting it over a warforged scout or standard bearer or aramil or a cleric of yondalla or whatever else I need for my warband. Maybe once it becomes a bit more proven I will change my mind, but for now it stays out of the toolkit.
| |
I am not gone. | |
|
Zyla
Underboss
1201 Posts
| | 06/30/2006 5:02 AM |
| | I think the golden protector will make Core, it adds alot for 41pts that are not commong for 1 figure in LG | |
| |
|
True_Blue
Underboss
2386 Posts
| | 06/30/2006 6:18 AM |
| About the Arcanix Guard, I just never see ppl actually use him. Now I'm not saying I am everywhere and no one ever uses him, but honestly I look through a lot of Tournament reports, watch a lot of games on Vassal, etc. And I just never see a mention of him in an actual warband, that consistantly really does good.
I'm sure ppl have used him, but if you dont see the guy actually make a regular showing at Tournaments, on Vassal, etc.. how great can the peice be? Its not a bad peice at all, but the toolkit isnt there for "not bad" peices. It seems there to provide players with a quick reference to the peices that are very efficient and that you will see in a competitive environment probably.
I'm sure people can use Arcanix Guards and do well in certain situations, but where do you see it at? Where are these bands being played at?
As I said before, its not like I am everywhere. But even one or two ppl coming on here citing that yes they indeed use them, really wont change much. You need to see constant use of the figure, with winning results, to see it added to the toolkit in my opinion.
Some of the newer peices may not exactly fit this bill yet, but I would give doubtofbuddha leeway to determine what he thinks will be, and then we go from there. You give about two months from when the set is released, and I bet doubt wouldnt mind updating it if it was proven that some peices needed to be added or removed. | |
Champion of a Knight of Takhisis/Knight of Neraka | |
|
PerpetualStudent
Sneak
173 Posts
| | 06/30/2006 10:11 AM |
| | While I agree that it is early to include WotDQ, I think it is a great idea and like what has been said so far. I think once these figures are out they will see plenty of testing and some changes will be warrented in the tool kit, but that is to be expected. I personally am looking forward to seeing how much use people can get out of new tech like dimension hop. | |
| |
|
elder_basilisk
Sergeant
410 Posts
| | 06/30/2006 10:47 AM |
| Maybe for the core toolkit. (Though hill dwarf warrior and Jozan are somewhat questionable for constantly showing up). But as for extended:
Azer Raider, cleric of lathander, justicator (AFAIK, triple justicator placed in one qualifier and took 5th (2/100% in tie breaks from 4th) when I ran them, but I don't think they've made many appearances other than that), large silver dragon, village priest, half-orc paladin, and slayer of domiel don't show up constantly either. Some of them used to be ubiquitous (Azer, large silver dragon). Others show up from time to time (Justicator, cleric of lathander). Others simply have a mix of abilities that is promising if the right build shows up (slayer of domiel, half-orc paladin, etc).
The arcanix guard seems to fit in with the latter group pretty well (especially with the village priest--if I'm putting a village priest in the band, I'm definitely going to look for a way to include arcanix guards too).
quote:
Originally posted by True_Blue
As I said before, its not like I am everywhere. But even one or two ppl coming on here citing that yes they indeed use them, really wont change much. You need to see constant use of the figure, with winning results, to see it added to the toolkit in my opinion.
| |
| |
|
| | You are not authorized to post a reply. |
|
| |
ActiveForums 3.7 | You must be signed in to participate in the
games. |