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Hero of Skirmish
doubtofbuddha
Commander
3371 Posts
    
 | | 06/28/2006 1:43 PM |
| Lawful Evil
By Jesse Dean (doubtofbuddha)
Special Thanks To: Christopher Groves (ChristopherGroves), Mike Derry (derry), and Pat Lynch (lynchpt)
Lawful Evil remains the king of multi-hitter bands, providing a combination of efficient 33-45 options that allow you to tailor your warband to deal with most any metagame environment. War of the Dragon Queen has continued this trend, providing a number of new hitter and commander options that allow you to continue to build plug and play Lawful Evil hitter warbands.
Primary Toolkit
Blue (Lawful Evil; 5 points; Giants of Legend; 2)
The second, equally useful, 5 point option for Lawful Evil, the Blue has the advantage of having a muli-use long range attacks that allows for the potential of early activation control. His utility decreases with the 8-figure limit, but only barely. He will still be useful against high-fodder warbands such as those lawful evil is likely to field, and even against tougher opponents there is still a chance he will be able to swipe 5 hit points off of their total, a chance that is high enough for him to be worth his 5 points.
Chraal (Lawful Evil; 35 points; Angelfire; 4)
One of the most efficient hitter that Lawful Evil has available to it, the Chraal combines a high hp: cost ratio, an effective breath weapon, high saves, plenty of immunities, and the ability to punish opponents who kill it. It has one major weakness in that it is destroyed it the commander it is tied to is also destroyed, which while devastating can be minimized with effective play strategies. It also suffers against DR and cold resistant creatures, particularly lawful good titan warbands built around the couatl.
Dark Moon Monk (Lawful Evil; 15 points; Giants of Legend; 1)
A figure whose utility has only increased with the advent of War Drums and the 8 figure limit, the Dark Moon Monk is a figure whose presence allows the elimination of at least part of the weaknesses of non-magic damage hitters, while still being useful in the late game to hunt enemy victory area grabbers, knock 5 crucial hit points of an enemy unit with her true strike spell, or even serving as a victory area grabber herself.
Dark Naga (Lawful Evil; 42 points; Underdark; 1)
One of the three effective 40ish point commanders that Lawful Evil has available to it, the Dark Naga works best when combined with warbands that feature aberrations (often a single Gauth or Beholder is enough), though any band that can benefit from the offensive spell power it has available to it in the form of lightning bolts and bigby’s slapping hands. The Dark Naga is largely ineffective against Helmed Horror bands, but in metagames with less Helmed Horrors present, is reasonably effective.
Dire Rat (Lawful Evil; 4 points; Giants of Legend; 1)
An excellent secondary tile grabbing option, the Dire Rat works well in warbands where you have 4 points left to spend but don’t have any particular unit you want to spend it on. Also works as a reasonable flanker, if you have no other options.
Duergar Champion (Lawful Evil; 33 points; Underdark; 5)
The standard mid-priced beater for Lawful Evil warbands, the Duergar Champion is the staple of most Lawful Evil warbands. He combines a good attack bonus with no-nmagical non-elemental damage and the defense of a solid armor class and conceal, giving two opportunities for most attacks to miss him. With the eight figure limit, the Duergar Champion now has the ability to be combined in multiples of up to five with Urthok the Vicious (though this limits your activations to six), or the Half-Orc Fighter.
Half-orc Fighter (Lawful Evil; 21 points; Harbinger; 1)
Lawful Evil’s cheapest commander, the Half-orc fighter has a reasonable commander rating for his cost (3) and a useful commander effect. Include him if you want to maximize the number of hitters or tech you can include in your warband but are less concerned about a high commander rating.
Goblin Skirmisher (Lawful Evil; 3 points; Dragoneye; 6)
The goblin skirmisher, kobold miner, and the warrior skeleton are the main options for lawful evil fodder, with enough utility between them to allow for a variety of possible configurations. While the warrior skeleton provides an immunity to cold that synergizes well with chraals and serves as an interesting form of protection against beholders, the goblin skirmisher has both a greater potential for damage (especially when combined with snig) and a greater threat range due to their ranged 6 attack. The kobold miner’s usability is based on its ability to quickly gain early victory area points and the fact that it is not worth points for opposing warbands. Which you use depends largely on the local metagame, and warband choices. If you use Snig, you will of course use Goblin Skirmishers. If you are using Chraals you will generally use Warrior Skeletons. If you have no other way to get first turn victory area points you will use kobold miners.
Helmed Horror (Lawful Evil; 45 points; Underdark; 4)
The Helmed Horror combines an excellent cost: hp ratio with all of the immunities that constructs benefit from, additional immunity to fireball, lightning bolt, and magic missile, a high attack bonus and armor class, and great mobility thanks to its ability to fly. It costs a little bit more than Lawful Evil’s other primary hitter-level components and thus takes some thought before including, especially considering its low damage considering its cost, but it still provides interesting options for many builds. It has a weakness against fire resistant and immune creatures, particularly things like the Marut who have the ability to consistently hit them.
Human Blackguard (Lawful Evil; 46 points; Harbinger; 1)
The Human Blackguard has the honor of being the cheapest “tough” commander that Lawful Evil has access to, and thus the one with the greatest ability to maximize the offensive potential of Chraal bands. His Tyrannical Morale commander effect has the added bonus of making it so Efreeti, Chraals, Duergar Champions, and even the low-save Zakya Rakshasa are all virtually fearless. His smite good and sneak attack abilities are a bonus, allowing him to perform some late-game engagement when the benefit of engaging him is greater than the risk potential.
Large Green Dragon (Lawful Evil; 51 points; War of the Dragon Queen; 1)
The Large Green Dragon combines several advantages into one, providing a fast, high hit point unit that makes up for its low attack bonuses with the ability to boost the attack rolls if its entire warband and a high-damage acid cone. While a little more expensive than many Lawful Evil beaters, there are still configurations that can be built that allow 4 beaters including a Large Green Dragon, making it so he will find a place in metagames that can use what he is offering.
Rakshasa (Lawful Evil; 41 points; Giants of Legend; 1)
The Rakshasa was the first real competition for Urthok. He doesn’t do nearly as much damage as Urthok, but is more mobile, has DR and Spell Resistance and has spells that make it so he isn’t required to engage enemies to be effective. The steady increase in useful commander effects has expanded the Rakshasa’s utility greatly allowing a Lawful Evil warband to turn its opponents strengths against them. His slapping hands spells have great utility when combined with multiple beater warbands, and his slides can allow for unit engagement or disengagement to maximize survivability or damage potential.
Snig the Axe (Lawful Evil; 20 points; Archfiends; 1)
Snig is a great support commander for most any lawful evil band, providing with you the ability to boost your activations 3 beyond your limit by including just a single piece. On top of that Snig provides all of the normal benefits of a commander as well as a bonus to damage for all small pieces. His only down-sides are his low commander rating (0) and his relative fragility, but neither of these are out of line for his cost.
Timber Wolf (Neutral; 5 points; Deathknell; 2)
A great primary victory area grabber, the Timber Wolf has additional utility as a tile grabber hunter and a flanker.
Urthok the Vicious (Lawful Evil; 34 points; Dragoneye; 1)
For awhile Urthok was the commander of choice for Lawful Evil bands for a sheer lack of better options for his point cost. With the shift in competitiveness that the most recent sets have brought, Urthoks utility has diminished but he still works as a primary lawful evil commander, especially in combination with Snig and a number of goblins.
Warrior Skeleton (Lawful Evil/Chaotic Evil; 3 points; Archfiends; 4)
The Warrior Skeleton has gained increased popularity lately due to the increase viability of cold-based effects in the metagame. As it is though he is reasonably effective for his cost, giving the benefits of cold immunity and fearlessness at the cost of having only a +1 bab. This is not very significant if you are involved in a fodder war against orc warriors or goblin skirmishers but it can become so if you are going against men-at-arms.
Zakya Rakshasa (Lawful Evil; 36 points; War Drums; 4)
Another addition to Lawful Evil’s general selection of efficient 30-40 point hitters. The Zakya Rakshasa is particularly effective against other Lawful Evil hitters, having something that aids it against each of them. It has a higher armor class and blind fight against the Duergar Champion, damage reduction against the chraal, helmed horror, and efreeti, and spell resistance against the efreeti. Additionally, it is faster than any of the LE hitters except the Chraal, and will hit 95% of the time on its first attack against any of these units. Its main downside is a low save for an LE hitter (7), and its lack of major physical defensive features such as the Duergar’s conceal and the Helmed Horror and Chraal’s large number of hit points. Still, it provides an excellent option for Lawful Evil builds, with the amount used depending on the composition of your local metagame.
Secondary Toolkit
Azer Raider (Lawful Good/Lawful Evil; 5 points; Harbinger; 2)
The Azer Raider is one of the best low-cost units in the game, serving as an excellent fodder choice for both lawful good and lawful evil bands. It combines decent speed (especially for lawful armies), armor class, and damage potential into a combination that is difficult to beat in similarly priced units.
Beholder (Lawful Evil; 83 points; Deathknell; 1)
The best titan option that Lawful Evil currently has available, the Beholder sits as the best option for a potent, high-variance piece. It suffers from the inclusion of pieces that are able to resist its abilities, but when combined with the right support (such as Lord Soth), it can overcome these limitations to some extent.
Blackguard on Nightmare (Lawful Evil; 68 points; War of the Dragon Queen; 1)
A serviceable titan commander, the Blackguard on Nightmare combines a great speed with the capability to strike through walls and pits, getting into an enemy’s backfield and take out key commanders or tech units. Her commander effect makes sure that her attendant beaters won’t run, and her Mounted Melee Attack allows her to get at distant fodder or support units for late (or early) game point grabbing.
Blood Ghost Berserker (Chaotic Evil; 37 points; War Drums; 4)
An interesting option for Lawful Evil bands using Urthok as a commander, the Blood Ghost berserker provides a fast, heavy hitting damage dealer. While probably inefficient in large groups, it is still an option worth investigating, especially when combined with the cover-units such as some of Lawful Evil’s sturdier options such as the Helmed Horror, Chraal, or Duergar Champion.
Cadaver Collector (Lawful Evil; 103 points; War of the Dragon Queen; 1)
The Cadaver Collector is an expensive titan that combines exceptional attack bonuses, good damage, a paralysis breath weapon, and an adequate hit point/cost ratio. Unfortunately it suffers from a relatively low armor class for its cost, and lacks the offensive flexibility that titans of other factions have available for them.
Efreeti (Lawful Evil; 42 points; Angelfire; 2)
While the Efreeti has been superseded somewhat by the tougher Helmed Horror, the Efreeti still provides some interesting capabilities that the Helmed Horror lacks. The Efreeti does slightly more damage than the Helmed Horror (15 + 5 fire rather than 10 +5 fire), has a greater ranged capability (line of sight and range 6 fire attacks as opposed to a single slow ranged attack), immunity to fire, and possesses reach. Unfortunately, it has 30 less hit points, a vulnerability to cold, and the maneuverability problems that come with a large base (though these are alleviated slightly by its ability to fly.) In most cases the Helmed Horror is a better option, but the Efreeti’s other advantages are enough to warrant consideration.
Gauth (Lawful Evil, 39 points; Archfiends; 2)
The Gauth goes up and down in popularity depending on the popularity of its most powerful counter (the Large Red Dragon) and the strength of other Lawful Evil figures, but its always been an effective piece. The combination of special ability-based 15 fire auto-damage and the chance to paralyze any creature (besides those that are immune to paralysis) is a powerful combination and will only become more so as Lawful Evil gets creatures that have automatic save reducing abilities (like stench) or DC boosting effects (like the Dark Naga). Its overall utility has been weakened thanks to the presence of the Couatl, the Dragon Temple map, and various paralysis immune figures, but its general utility is enough to still make it a viable choice for many warbands.
Green Dragon (Lawful Evil; 28 points; Aberrations; 1)
The Green Dragon’s main utility lies in the three areas: 1) His cost/hp ratio; 2) His breath weapon; 3) His extraordinarily high speed. The combination of these factors create a versatile, yet survivable, figure that can serve a number of roles. He can grab victory areas, even in maps where most victory areas are in tough locations. He can serve to assassinate weaker commanders such as Snig, the Tiefling Captain, and the Cleric of Order. He can weaken tougher enemies thanks to his ability to place himself in exactly the correct position to unleash his breath weapon. He can do all of these things while still surviving any but the most concerted efforts to defeat him thanks to his high hit points. And any turn an orc champion or ogre ravager is focusing on him, is a turn where he isn’t focusing on a more important threat in your warband.
Greenspawn Razorfiend (Lawful Evil; 45 points; War of the Dragon Queen; 2)
The Greenspawn Razorfiend fits into the same point slot as the Helmed Horror, and has a similar, though slightly lower, level of survivability. What it loses in construct traits and immunities it gains in variance based increased damage, and non-elemental damage output. This can be alleviated by the Dark Moon Monk.
Inspired Lieutenant (Lawful Evil; 45 points; War Drums; 1)
An interesting option for 40ish point commanders, the Inspired Lieutenant provides a generally useful commander effect with the ability to put direct damage on enemy units. This works both in the round of engagement with her Recall Agony, as well as the rounds after engagement where she can place a guaranteed 10 hit points of damage on a unit that needs to take this damage to ensure your victory. She is slightly more fragile than commanders of a similar point value, but if used effectively the problems this entails can be reduced.
Kobold Miner (Lawful Evil; 3 points; Underdark; 2)
The kobold miner is almost completely ineffective in combat, lacking any real capability of being a near credible melee threat, and being forced to make a morale save if it is so much as attacked. However, it has two advantages that make it worthy of consideration: 1) It is not worthy any victory points to the enemy; 2) It is a wandering monster. Being a wandering monster is also a bit of a disadvantage for the kobold miner, making it something of a gambit to use in a warband.
Khumat (Lawful Evil, 51 points; War Drums; 1)
Useful not just for the Jaws of Doom (though they are, of course, useful) but also because of its flexibility and sheer resiliency, the Khumat provides a combination of reach, a high armor class, and lots of hit points with a reasonably high 20 damage attack. While it suffers some from larges, its hit points are competitive for its price range, and its ability to force morale checks on units that it is particularly weak against (namely the high damage, fast, medium hitters) can be enough to win games for this unit.
Kobold Sorcerer (Lawful Evil; 20 points; Aberrations; 1)
The kobold sorcerer serves are as a reasonable second commander, but in most cases is a suboptimal choice when put in competition with Snig the Axe. He is more useful when using multiple kobolds in your warband or when magic weapon would be helpful in a DR-heavy metagame. His magic missiles are useful at picking off enemy fodder, but this is less useful in the faction that is currently the most effective at controlling activations. Still, when compared to the advantages that Snig provides (particularly the three activations that come with him), he is rarely the best choice.
Large Duergar (Lawful Evil; 15 points; War Drums; 2)
An excellent mid-range fodder choice, the Large Duergar serves as a sturdy blocker and second line attacker whose effectiveness is even greater against medium sized units whom it can hit for an impressive 20 points of damage. It will probably fall against a real hitter, but a combination of 45 hit points and conceal 6 can provide it with a surprising level of staying power.
Lord Soth (Lawful Evil; 98 points; Giants of Legend; 1)
Lord Soth suffers quite a bit from his high cost, though with the arrival of chraals and the beholder he has gotten a new look. Lord Soth benefits from being the single toughest commander in 200 points, allowing him to be a safe tether for chraals as well as a reasonable opponent (thanks to the effects of his abyssal blast.) In addition, when combined with a beholder, he benefits from being a tough commander in that the beholder can heal or slide him even when they aren’t any other good options for ray effects.
Orog Warlord (Lawful Evil; 71 points; Angelfire; 1)
A tough commander that combines some level of activation control (in the form of two minions) with a reasonable commander rating and effect, and potent melee ability, the Orog Warlord is one of the best options for running a warband with Chraals. He works well with other warbands as well, but is slightly less efficient when combined with pieces who have less of a need for a commander who absolutely must survive an entire skirmish. The Orog Warlord has the advantage of being effective vs. both Chaotic Evil and Lawful Evil builds. His commander effect is more useful against Lawful Evil builds, but he is personally more effective vs. Chaotic Evil builds. He has the added benefit of a degree of cold resistance and fire resistance, which provides him some level of protection against opposing Helmed Horrors, Chraals, and Red Samurais.
Shuluth, Archivillian (Lawful Evil; 59 points; War Drums; 1)
A promising new commander for LE, Shuluth is priced high enough that he is a significant portion of your warband while still being inexpensive enough that you can combine him with four of LE’s low-cost hitter options. This alone is significant enough that you should be able to expect to win games even if his abilities do not end up coming into play. In situations where they do come into play, he can be devastating, forcing a hitter into not being able to activate for a round, or forcing a unit to suffer multiple attacks of opportunity before being able to do anything. | |
I am not gone. | |
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Felagund
Sergeant
922 Posts
| | 06/28/2006 1:48 PM |
| I think that the Blue should definitely be bumped down to extended. I think that the instances in which he would be chosen over a Timber Wolf are few and far between.
Dark Naga (41 points rather than 42) could probably also drop to extended, as Rakshasa is usually a better choice. | |
Champion of Gnomes | |
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Tgt
Sergeant
574 Posts
| | 06/28/2006 1:57 PM |
| But Naga is great with Horrors due to their immunity to L Bolts. Many successful Horror bands feature it.
Great job, when can we expect an Epic version? [}:)] | |
VINDICATED Champion of the Mounted Blackguard
DoD called shot: Phrenic Manticore
They´re taking the Hobbits to Isengard!
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1752017962119496176 | |
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Felagund
Sergeant
922 Posts
| | 06/28/2006 2:10 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Tgt
But Naga is great with Horrors due to their immunity to L Bolts. Many successful Horror bands feature it.
Contrariwise, it is horrible vs. Horrors due to their immunity to Lightning Bolts. [:)] | |
Champion of Gnomes | |
| Hero of Skirmish
doubtofbuddha
Commander
3371 Posts
| | 06/28/2006 2:17 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Tgt
But Naga is great with Horrors due to their immunity to L Bolts. Many successful Horror bands feature it.
Great job, when can we expect an Epic version? [}:)]
When either a) sienar writes it or b) I finish brushing up on Epic after Gen Con and write it myself. | |
I am not gone. | |
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djtool
Sergeant
584 Posts
Crystal MN, USA
| | 06/28/2006 3:02 PM |
| if you've got 10 pts and 2 acts left i can see plenty of reasons to go blue-timberwolf instead of two pups. If stirges prove to be a force his value escalates as well, you'd only need to kill one stirge with him to make it worth it.
no cadaver collector? I thought he'd make extended. | |
Champion of: Brain in a Jar | |
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sienar
Sergeant
640 Posts
| | 06/28/2006 3:02 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by doubtofbuddha
quote:
Originally posted by Tgt
But Naga is great with Horrors due to their immunity to L Bolts. Many successful Horror bands feature it.
Great job, when can we expect an Epic version? [}:)]
When either a) sienar writes it or b) I finish brushing up on Epic after Gen Con and write it myself.
LE is done except for additions from WotDQ. I haven't seen much to make me drop anything. | |
[http://www.hordelings.com/frontend/profiles/profile.php?user_id=22] | |
| Hero of Skirmish
doubtofbuddha
Commander
3371 Posts
| | 06/28/2006 3:07 PM |
| | Well then add WoTDQ and publish it man! [:D] | |
I am not gone. | |
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sienar
Sergeant
640 Posts
| | 06/28/2006 3:23 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by doubtofbuddha
Well then add WoTDQ and publish it man! [:D]
You must learn patience.
Expect to see it this week. I might even be able to get the others done, too. | |
[http://www.hordelings.com/frontend/profiles/profile.php?user_id=22] | |
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Venport
Sergeant
739 Posts
| | 06/28/2006 3:42 PM |
| Zak rak has Blight FIGHT not Blight Sight... (however his first attack of the game will go right through con:)
Other than that great toolkit..
Edit:
Thanks for the change | |
Sacramento DDM http://www.maxminis.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=16854
New world Project http://www.maxminis.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=20745
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Vrecknidj
Warlord
10493 Posts
United States
| | 06/28/2006 5:16 PM |
| Re-reading the entry on Soth makes me want to run one with a Chraal. I really want to send a Chraal up to get surrounded and then Abyssal Blast my own piece just to blow the crap out of everything basing the Chraal.
Thanks for the update!
Dave | |
Knowledge Arcana editor issues 5-9, Phoenix Lore Magazine editor, assistant editor for Rite Publishing;
My Trade Thread and My Reference Thread; Winner of WBC IV, IX and XIII; Rule #0: bshugg is always right! | |
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Gloom_
Sergeant
583 Posts
| | 06/28/2006 6:43 PM |
| | I thought Cadaver Collector might make extended too.. apart from that I agree. | |
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neilasaurus
Sneak
134 Posts
| | 06/29/2006 12:23 AM |
| | No Cadaver collector, but Khumat is still in extended? Sheesh. | |
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neilasaurus
Sneak
134 Posts
| | 06/29/2006 12:31 AM |
| Duergar Champion (Lawful Evil; 33 points; Underdark; 5)
The standard mid-priced beater for Lawful Evil warbands, the Duergar Champion is the staple of most Lawful Evil warbands. He combines a good attack bonus with no-nmagical non-elemental damage and the defense of a solid armor class and conceal, giving two opportunities for most attacks to miss him. With the eight figure limit, the Duergar Champion now has the ability to be combined in multiples of up to five with Urthok the Vicious (though this limits your activations to six), or the Half-Orc Fighter.
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Prince o the Raven Banner
Sergeant
606 Posts
| | 06/29/2006 7:09 AM |
| The Dark Moon Monk is listed as being from War Drums.
Once again thanx for writing these.
EDIT: Not that it matters but I'm surprised that the Cadaver Collector didn't make the list. I would place it at parity with the Beholder as a Titan option. Is it a case of waiting to see if it really performs?
P.S. The new sig is the best yet. [)] | |
Two trades completed!! (Krush,Hides From Hurricanes)
Champion of the Aaracokra
Herald Of Snig Goblin King | |
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hardinjmm
Sergeant
573 Posts
Madison, WI
| | 06/29/2006 10:49 AM |
| | I agree with neilasaurus, why is the Khumat in and not the Cadaver Collecter? I know that you (or maybe Chris Groves) said that it dies really quickly, but with all the large titans being run Jaws of Doom does not seem very useful. | | | |
| Hero of Skirmish
doubtofbuddha
Commander
3371 Posts
| | 06/29/2006 10:55 AM |
| | Yeah, I am a bit biased against the Cadaver Collector because of its low AC, but it should be in here. I will add it. | |
I am not gone. | |
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djtool
Sergeant
584 Posts
Crystal MN, USA
| | 06/29/2006 11:11 AM |
| CC's AC is low but with the combination of spd 6, mob(x) units, screeners, etc., players will find ways to get CC to the scrubby units to kick it up. Perhaps we'll find that you *should* be able to get to 22 before being mobbed. Additionally if that tactic is proven it may strengthen CC point-denial bands as your opponent shudders at the thought of giving you free AC bonus's.
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Champion of: Brain in a Jar | |
| Hero of Skirmish
doubtofbuddha
Commander
3371 Posts
| | 06/29/2006 11:17 AM |
| There is no reason to mob the Cadaver Collector with godder units when you can simply mob it with high damage units or swarms of hitters. A CE quad or LE hitter band or even a group of gith monks should take him down pretty quickly.
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I am not gone. | |
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Helzapoppn
Warrior
258 Posts
| | 06/29/2006 2:10 PM |
| What if you only have one figure slot left and more than five (TWolf, Blue, Azer) but less than 15 (DMM, Large Duergar) points to spend it on?
Bring on the Fiendish Dire Weasel!! +6 attack for up to 10 damage, Fire and Cold Resist 5, Spell Resistance, Speed 8, and it morale checks after taking 10 (EXACTLY like the Timber Wolf)...a bargain at 8 points...
Or, just to be complete...
Goblin Sneak (6 points) -- Ranged Attack and Sneak Attack for bands with the Large Green Dragon and/or Aspect of Hextor
Skeletal Wolf (9 points) -- Undead tile grabber
Gravehound (11 points) -- Better Undead tile grabber with neverending Stun attacks
Goblin Blackblade (12 points) -- magic damage, AC 20, Melee Sneak Attack and Sneaky Tactics, benefits greatly from Urthok or Snig | |
Champion of Iconics & the Apparatus of Kwalish (Constructs with Drivers? Brilliant!)
Dungeons of Dread Called Shot: Yeah, right | |
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Daezarkian
Sneak
110 Posts
| | 06/29/2006 2:35 PM |
| I was hoping that the War Troll would make the cut, at least in the Extended section. He's a resilient Titan with DR, Regen 5, a good ranged attack, a formidable melee attack and good level, all for a reasonable cost.
Just my 1 1/2 cents...
Daezarkian
Demonic Accountant | |
Daezarkian
Demonic Accountant | |
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Prince o the Raven Banner
Sergeant
606 Posts
| | 06/30/2006 8:23 AM |
| I think that the Wartroll's place is in Epic. Either as a support Hitter or an Epic level Bad Azz.
I like him as well, but think he needs too much finesse to be a toolkit piece for 200. | |
Two trades completed!! (Krush,Hides From Hurricanes)
Champion of the Aaracokra
Herald Of Snig Goblin King | |
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grifter100
Skirmisher
48 Posts
| | 06/30/2006 9:46 AM |
| | I think the Diseased Dire Rat should at least be in the Extended toolkit. Denying your opponent tile points is extremely powerful for some builds (Chraals, anyone?), especially on maps where the Rat grabs tile points for you while doing so. | |
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sienar
Sergeant
640 Posts
| | 06/30/2006 10:30 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Helzapoppn
What if you only have one figure slot left and more than five (TWolf, Blue, Azer) but less than 15 (DMM, Large Duergar) points to spend it on?
Bring on the Fiendish Dire Weasel!! +6 attack for up to 10 damage, Fire and Cold Resist 5, Spell Resistance, Speed 8, and it morale checks after taking 10 (EXACTLY like the Timber Wolf)...a bargain at 8 points...
Or, just to be complete...
Goblin Sneak (6 points) -- Ranged Attack and Sneak Attack for bands with the Large Green Dragon and/or Aspect of Hextor
Skeletal Wolf (9 points) -- Undead tile grabber
Gravehound (11 points) -- Better Undead tile grabber with neverending Stun attacks
Goblin Blackblade (12 points) -- magic damage, AC 20, Melee Sneak Attack and Sneaky Tactics, benefits greatly from Urthok or Snig
Given that range, I'll take Wolf Skeleton, Gravehound, or Diseased Dire Rat. The others are largely unappealing to me. | |
[http://www.hordelings.com/frontend/profiles/profile.php?user_id=22] | |
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Orion72
Underboss
1917 Posts
| | 06/30/2006 10:34 AM |
| I nominate the (Harbinger) Mind Flayer for inclusion in the Extended kit. As a leader for an LE Quad, it's cheaper than the Rakshasa, allowing more room for the much-needed Dark Moon Monk. It's Commander 4, plus its CFX makes it a sort of double-Wardrummer: -4 to enemy morale, +4 to yours. And then there's that cone. Making a DC17 Stun save every round is huge, even for bands that feature Maruts or Sacred Watchers, as they depend heavily on stunnable support pieces. Multiple HHs only really need support in the first few rounds, so it's not that big vs them - but you still have a Commander 4 leading an LE Quad, which has few truly bad match-ups. This piece won't get played widely in the national metagame, simply due to its rarity; but I still feel it deserves serious consideration.
Also, your Zak Rak write-up didn't mention its biggest selling point in today's game - unlimited Turn Undead 20. | | | |
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robbdaman
Underboss
2380 Posts
| | 06/30/2006 11:48 AM |
| Taking my first look at this I'm going to say that Large Green Dragon might see some use but most of the time it'll be dropped for more effective options. Certainly not a core piece. Meanwhile the War Troll is not included at all while it has been used to success at tournaments and even won a qualifier. As for it being a finesse piece, there are far more finesse pieces that are in toolkits. I'd say it's core but it's at least extended.
R~ | |
Champion of the Titan
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Successful trades with: Tickparasite, Iyceman, Faragdar The Wise's friend, avrivah, Drakkengi, brucemc, Krush, maniacal_mini_monger, hung4treason, Gandy, NarlethDrider, Kunimatyu, etc, etc, blah, blah, blah..... | |
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Helzapoppn
Warrior
258 Posts
| | 06/30/2006 12:20 PM |
| Which is fine, except none are mentioned. There's a gap in the 6-to-14-point range.
quote:
Originally posted by sienar
quote:
Originally posted by Helzapoppn
What if you only have one figure slot left and more than five (TWolf, Blue, Azer) but less than 15 (DMM, Large Duergar) points to spend it on?
Bring on the Fiendish Dire Weasel!! +6 attack for up to 10 damage, Fire and Cold Resist 5, Spell Resistance, Speed 8, and it morale checks after taking 10 (EXACTLY like the Timber Wolf)...a bargain at 8 points...
Or, just to be complete...
Goblin Sneak (6 points) -- Ranged Attack and Sneak Attack for bands with the Large Green Dragon and/or Aspect of Hextor
Skeletal Wolf (9 points) -- Undead tile grabber
Gravehound (11 points) -- Better Undead tile grabber with neverending Stun attacks
Goblin Blackblade (12 points) -- magic damage, AC 20, Melee Sneak Attack and Sneaky Tactics, benefits greatly from Urthok or Snig
Given that range, I'll take Wolf Skeleton, Gravehound, or Diseased Dire Rat. The others are largely unappealing to me.
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Champion of Iconics & the Apparatus of Kwalish (Constructs with Drivers? Brilliant!)
Dungeons of Dread Called Shot: Yeah, right | |
| Hero of Skirmish
doubtofbuddha
Commander
3371 Posts
| | 06/30/2006 12:41 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by robbdaman
Meanwhile the War Troll is not included at all while it has been used to success at tournaments and even won a qualifier.
It did not win a qualifier. | |
I am not gone. | |
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robbdaman
Underboss
2380 Posts
| | 06/30/2006 12:50 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by doubtofbuddha
quote:
Originally posted by robbdaman
Meanwhile the War Troll is not included at all while it has been used to success at tournaments and even won a qualifier.
It did not win a qualifier.
Okay it came in second, it still qualified and came damn close to winning. What I'm saying is that it is more solid than a lot of the things that are on the list that aren't even making a showing in most tournaments including the qualifiers at the moment.
R~ | |
Champion of the Titan
******************************************************************************************************************************************************
Successful trades with: Tickparasite, Iyceman, Faragdar The Wise's friend, avrivah, Drakkengi, brucemc, Krush, maniacal_mini_monger, hung4treason, Gandy, NarlethDrider, Kunimatyu, etc, etc, blah, blah, blah..... | |
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Gloom_
Sergeant
583 Posts
| | 06/30/2006 12:50 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by grifter100
I think the Diseased Dire Rat should at least be in the Extended toolkit. Denying your opponent tile points is extremely powerful for some builds (Chraals, anyone?), especially on maps where the Rat grabs tile points for you while doing so.
Yes. My views on the Diesesed rat have changed slightly.. on a shared victory area map, it's pretty good, and it's not bad otherwise. | |
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| Hero of Skirmish
doubtofbuddha
Commander
3371 Posts
| | 06/30/2006 1:12 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by robbdaman
Okay it came in second, it still qualified and came damn close to winning. What I'm saying is that it is more solid than a lot of the things that are on the list that aren't even making a showing in most tournaments including the qualifiers at the moment.
R~
Point. | |
I am not gone. | |
| Hero of Skirmish
doubtofbuddha
Commander
3371 Posts
| | 06/30/2006 1:13 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Gloom_
quote:
Originally posted by grifter100
I think the Diseased Dire Rat should at least be in the Extended toolkit. Denying your opponent tile points is extremely powerful for some builds (Chraals, anyone?), especially on maps where the Rat grabs tile points for you while doing so.
Yes. My views on the Diesesed rat have changed slightly.. on a shared victory area map, it's pretty good, and it's not bad otherwise.
My distrust of its usability is based more on the fact that it costs as much as it does, more than what it does. If it was less expensive I would include it for sure. 14 points is expensive though. | |
I am not gone. | |
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Gloom_
Sergeant
583 Posts
| | 06/30/2006 1:23 PM |
| | Yeah, was my initial concern.. warband dependant I guess. In 500 the rat is awesome, but again, this sin't a 500 toolkit.. [:D] | |
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robbdaman
Underboss
2380 Posts
| | 06/30/2006 1:24 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by doubtofbuddha
quote:
Originally posted by Gloom_
quote:
Originally posted by grifter100
I think the Diseased Dire Rat should at least be in the Extended toolkit. Denying your opponent tile points is extremely powerful for some builds (Chraals, anyone?), especially on maps where the Rat grabs tile points for you while doing so.
Yes. My views on the Diesesed rat have changed slightly.. on a shared victory area map, it's pretty good, and it's not bad otherwise.
My distrust of its usability is based more on the fact that it costs as much as it does, more than what it does. If it was less expensive I would include it for sure. 14 points is expensive though.
I'm with you on this Jesse. I think it's cost is a bit much for what you get in 200 pts. It just makes your opponent kill it that much faster if the map you're using has shared VAs. Sure it might take a lot of filler to take it out or even a similarly costed piece but again it's situational and only a real concern when there are shared VAs. Add to this that usually when there is a shared VA there's a lot of beaters in it. I think in epic it'll be more useful because even one round of denying your opponent points makes up for far more than it's cost.
R~ | |
Champion of the Titan
******************************************************************************************************************************************************
Successful trades with: Tickparasite, Iyceman, Faragdar The Wise's friend, avrivah, Drakkengi, brucemc, Krush, maniacal_mini_monger, hung4treason, Gandy, NarlethDrider, Kunimatyu, etc, etc, blah, blah, blah..... | |
| Hero of Skirmish
doubtofbuddha
Commander
3371 Posts
| | 06/30/2006 1:30 PM |
| My concern about the 8-13 point range as far as warband building goes, is that, at least from what I can see, it is a rarely used point slot for LE builds. Most LE builds where I find myself with extra points in that area result in me upgrading one of my hitters or commanders (usually to the Human Blackguard), or rearranging points so I can include Snig for extra activations.
Thats even more pertinent with the inclusion of better high-end hitters like the Large Green Dragon and similar 40-50ish point hitters. | |
I am not gone. | |
| The Defenestrator
AesophDarkfable
Warlord
5628 Posts
| | 06/30/2006 3:14 PM |
| | I feel the Wartroll should be extended as well (but you know me). It is not core by any means but is a high end titan at a solid cost. | |
Im out- find me on Hordelings if you want to chat. | |
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Gloom_
Sergeant
583 Posts
| | 06/30/2006 3:27 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by robbdaman
quote:
Originally posted by doubtofbuddha
quote:
Originally posted by robbdaman
Meanwhile the War Troll is not included at all while it has been used to success at tournaments and even won a qualifier.
It did not win a qualifier.
Okay it came in second, it still qualified and came damn close to winning. What I'm saying is that it is more solid than a lot of the things that are on the list that aren't even making a showing in most tournaments including the qualifiers at the moment.
R~
It gets more play than some other things there (Soth, Orog and Khumat come to mind) to be fair.. | |
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| Hero of Skirmish
doubtofbuddha
Commander
3371 Posts
| | 06/30/2006 3:43 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Gloom_
It gets more play than some other things there (Soth, Orog and Khumat come to mind) to be fair..
It is also newer than any of those pieces except for the Khumat.
I accept your point though, and when I get around to it, the War Troll will be added to extended. | |
I am not gone. | |
|
neilasaurus
Sneak
134 Posts
| | 06/30/2006 6:52 PM |
| So anyway, I just realized I highlighted something in red for someone who is colorblind.
If confused by my duergar post, my point is that a Duergar does magic damage, not "no-nmagical", whatever that is. | |
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Darksuit
Skirmisher
44 Posts
| | 07/01/2006 3:47 AM |
| my thoughts are the the Kobold Zombie will make it onto the extended list. Heres a mini that for 24 points and 2 warband slots give you 6 minis that can go grab tile points, deal with fodder or act as a moving wall. When combined with the Kobold Sorc. They become AC 13 Con 6 , 15 HP moving/shambling Wall. Throw in Snig and suddenly oyu have a lot of fearless mob pieces that will move well to make a nice wall and blockers.
Put them with anyone who can cone or reach over them and it's going to be rather annoying to deal with. | |
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