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IanB
Commander
3112 Posts
    
 | | 07/01/2006 11:17 PM |
| I decided to leave the inflamatory part out of my title, but I think the sealed balance in this set is shaping up to be extremely bad. The top places in our tournament were completely dominated by Aspect of Tiamat and Aspect of Bahamut pulls, and I'm seeing similar results reported from other locations. The only reason we had much of a tournament was that there were 3 of each pulled, so there was at least some reasonable uncertainty about who would pull out the top finish. One player did get the reasonable eldritch giant/blackguard combination, but inexperience pretty much doomed that band.
The huges are obviously dominant factors in the environment, since there are only 4 rares with epic cards, and the balance in the huge slot is definitely lacking. I doubt I'll be playing another WotDQ sealed tournament, despite winning this pre-release, because the pulls are so uneven. The problem would only have been worse if people didn't have access to the promo spider I think; a number of people chose to run that after seeing their regular pulls. Given that there will be no spider safety net in future tournaments, I think there's a real potential for an unfun environment for the majority of players. | |
Anson on WotC boards | |
| The Defenestrator
AesophDarkfable
Warlord
5628 Posts
| | 07/01/2006 11:24 PM |
| I found tiamat to be rather fragile and I ended up breathing and running most of the time with her. I didnt see any Bahamuts but I think that while there is a dominant class and the balance might be a little out of whack its not horrid.
The sheer power of Epic Tordek and Slaughterstone make up some and Godslayer helps as well.
But beyond those three and the Aspects it is lacking some yes.
The purple work and epic blackguards breath weapons can help with pretty much anyone other than tordek aspects as the DC is 50/50 for the blackguard on most other than those and even higher on the worm, -10 dam is alot.
Its not a perfect balance, but I dont think its horrid either. | |
Im out- find me on Hordelings if you want to chat. | |
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Venport
Sergeant
739 Posts
| | 07/01/2006 11:26 PM |
| I did no see a Dragon God dominance at ours... in fact the only 2 dragon gods (out of 40 people) did not make the top 4... However i do agree on a few things that you said about WOTDQ
1: the huges are a big factor (an the Epics)
2: Access to the huge fiendish spider is key... I think that we need that fig to keep sealed events event.. with out that access i don't see my self palying sealed for WODQ or draft for WOTDQ...
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Sacramento DDM http://www.maxminis.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=16854
New world Project http://www.maxminis.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=20745
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MightyEinherjar
Sergeant
387 Posts
| | 07/01/2006 11:29 PM |
| | Total agreement with IanB. The top four in our 24 person tournement was Tiamat vs Tiamat and Bahumet vs Bahumet. Of course, ending conflict was Bahumet vs Tiamat, which ended in a draw (it wasn't played). No one really stood a chance with their pulls. Probably post more about it later. | |
Champion of the Aspect of Tempus | |
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Zippy
Underboss
1993 Posts
Whitewater, WI
| | 07/01/2006 11:39 PM |
| Ours was only 6 people (hey who's bright idea was it to run pre-release on a holiday weekend with Origins in full swing a few states over, Doh!).
Bahamut won ours. Your comments on balance may be right, but our second place was a war ape commanded Purple Worm + Cadaver band. Tiamat + Godslayer was only 3rd or 4th. | |
There are 10 kinds of people in the world; those who understand binary, and those who don't.
Reference Thread, H/W List, Champion of the Catoblepas | |
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Kithmaker
Commander
3926 Posts
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Kalrin
Sneak
90 Posts
| | 07/02/2006 12:05 AM |
| Well, here in SoCal we had 22 people.
4 Aspects were pulled (2 of each). There was a Tiamat+Godslayer and a Bahamut+Godslayer.
Top 4 were:
1) Tordek+Corpse Collector + Godslayer
2) Tiamat + Shtuff
3) Bahamut + Shtuff
4) Eldritch Giant + Epic Blackguard on Nightmare
In retrospect: The Aspects were powerful. Pulling one gave you an amazing pull. But, Blackguard on Nightmare paired with the Eldritch Giant, and the sheer damage power of the #1 band are good enough to give the aspects a run for their money. | |
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Kevizoid
Sergeant
373 Posts
Southern California
| | 07/02/2006 12:29 AM |
| Yeah, after seeing my 2 huges and my first rare..I figured i was screwed for this tournament...and BAM tordek was my other rare!.
I ran Tordek, Cadaver Collector, Godslayer, fire elmental, kobold zombie. It was 5 activatiosn wtih NO commander. Only thing I could have improved upon, woudl be pulling a warweaver instead of the cadvaer then i play him and the Warden of the Woods. Tordek is just a beast in epic. I beat 2 bahamut bands, +8 init vs my +0, Tordek alone did 200 damage in 2 rounds to Bahamut, there really was not alot that could keep up wtih my pure beating and staying power. I lost to Dagni's Purple Worm who swallowed whole..(who happens to fit perfectly inside the Worms mouth, try it yourself! :P). Tordek failed 1/2 of his MCs vs bahamut (as he should since it was 50/50 per matchup).
All in all i think the balance was messed up. You need tordek, aspects, or the eviscerator to do well, (and eldritch with blackguard). Without a spider i know alot of people would have been screwed points wise, (I feel bad for the people who pull a spider anyways). | |
SoCal Colluder | |
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Calicles
Sneak
51 Posts
| | 07/02/2006 12:33 AM |
| An interesting result at the Ypsilanti, Michigan event. Top finishing bands were (1) Tordek+, (2) Bahamut+, (3) Purple Worm, Tundra Scout, Blackguard, (4) Bluespawn/2 Spiders, (5) Tordek+, (6) Tordek+.
21 players and five rounds. Two Bahamut bands combined record 7-3. All three Bahamut loses were to Tordek. Three Tordek bands combined record 11-4. However, three of the four Tordek loses were due to Tordek being swallowed by a Purple Worm. Two Tiamat bands combined record unknown (one Tiamet was being played by a young, first time player and don't know his results), the other Tiamet band went 3-2, one loss was against Bahamut, the other loss was to Tordek.
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Champion of Sehanine Moonbow | |
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Kevizoid
Sergeant
373 Posts
Southern California
| | 07/02/2006 12:37 AM |
| | I believe Tordek is the strongest piece you could really pull, IF you pulled decent support. He can stand toe to toe with an Aspect and come out on top depending on rolls, and he's only half your band. His only real weakness would be if he was swallowed whole. Which is how I lost my 1 game. | |
SoCal Colluder | |
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lynchpt
Sergeant
930 Posts
| | 07/02/2006 12:43 AM |
| I was also diappointed in the sealed balance. Out of 19 people in Milford MA, we had 2 Bahamuts and 1 Tiamat. All three Aspect bands made it into the top 4. I snuck in with my trash band (Purple Worm, Fiendish Spider, Greenspawn Razorfiend, Warweaver, Bonded FIre Summoner) at 3-2 on tiebreaks. I promptly got crushed in the semifinal match by Tiamtat. My record against non-Aspect bands: 3-0, against Aspect bands: 0-3 (I played each on once).
On the way home we speculated, and info on the board confirms that Tordek or the Bluespawn Godslayer and something else good are about the only other bands that have a reasonable chance of taking a tournament from the Aspects.
It's hard to pay $40 dollars for a sealed event knowing that there is such a small possible number of combinations that gives you a chance of winning.
Pat Lynch
Kevin seems to have gotten about the best non-Aspect band possible - congrats [:)].
Oddly enough, we had two Tordeks drawn, both by the players who had drawn Apect of Bahamut! So they played Tordek as his low level self.
Pat Lynch
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Dreamblade Rules Advisor | |
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Chairman7w
Sergeant
484 Posts
| | 07/02/2006 12:44 AM |
| Not sure if I agree or not.
I pulled a Bahamet and got soundly trounced by a Mountain Troll, 2x Fiendish Spider and a WarWeaver (that Snake's Swiftness can be rough!) I got critted by the Troll too, but dice are part of the game.
I was 3-1 on the day and only felt like I had a easy time once. And frankly, I was glad I didn't have to face an Epic Tordek. He's got more HP and costs less than Bahamet.
Either way, it was great fun.
Certainly, pulls are a HUGE factor in Pre-releases, Ian, but I don't think it's any different from any other Pre-Release. Pulls are ALWAYS the deciding factor in a pre-release. | |
Dr. Simon: A phrase that's encoded in her brain, that makes her fall asleep. If I speak the words, "Eta...
Jayne: Well don't say it!
Zoë: It only works on her, Jayne. | |
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Kevizoid
Sergeant
373 Posts
Southern California
| | 07/02/2006 12:52 AM |
| | I didnt get the best possible :P, the best would have been a warweaver instead of the Cadaver Collector, 50 damage SS wtih cleave is INSANE, plus dimension hop to get much better positioning. | |
SoCal Colluder | |
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kgradert13
Sergeant
909 Posts
| | 07/02/2006 1:16 AM |
| Top 5 in Bettendorf:
1) Tiamat - 5-0
2) Epic Tordek 4-1 (lost to #1)
3) Tiamat - 4-1 (Lost to #1)
4) Bahamut - 4-1 (Lost to #2)
5) Bahamut - 4-1 (Lost to #3)
There were 5 Tiamats and 4 Bahamuts out of the 23 people. 2 Epic Tordeks. In fact the final 4 undefeated bands after round 3 were 2 Epic Tordek and 2 Tiamats.
If you were a competent player and pulled one of the 3 power pieces (One of the Aspects or Tordek) you were golden. | |
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IanB
Commander
3112 Posts
| | 07/02/2006 4:22 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Chairman7w
Not sure if I agree or not.
I pulled a Bahamet and got soundly trounced by a Mountain Troll, 2x Fiendish Spider and a WarWeaver (that Snake's Swiftness can be rough!) I got critted by the Troll too, but dice are part of the game.
I was 3-1 on the day and only felt like I had a easy time once. And frankly, I was glad I didn't have to face an Epic Tordek. He's got more HP and costs less than Bahamet.
Either way, it was great fun.
Certainly, pulls are a HUGE factor in Pre-releases, Ian, but I don't think it's any different from any other Pre-Release. Pulls are ALWAYS the deciding factor in a pre-release.
I agree that pulls are always an important factor. However, the most successful sealed sets are the ones that skew the balance of warband building power to multiple pieces in the common and, more often, the uncommon slots - Underdark is the best balanced set because of that. When the meat and potatoes of most sealed bands is coming out of multiple uncommon slots, the potential for a bad pull is minimized.
Unlike Underdark, WotDQ concentrates almost all of the warband power into one slot that has a *hugely* variable amount of utility. This is a similar problem to the 'large uncommon' slot in Angelfire, only as a much, much larger component of the overall balance. | |
Anson on WotC boards | |
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MightyEinherjar
Sergeant
387 Posts
| | 07/02/2006 4:58 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Kalrin
Well, here in SoCal we had 22 people.
4 Aspects were pulled (2 of each). There was a Tiamat+Godslayer and a Bahamut+Godslayer.
Top 4 were:
1) Tordek+Corpse Collector + Godslayer
2) Tiamat + Shtuff
3) Bahamut + Shtuff
4) Eldritch Giant + Epic Blackguard on Nightmare
In retrospect: The Aspects were powerful. Pulling one gave you an amazing pull. But, Blackguard on Nightmare paired with the Eldritch Giant, and the sheer damage power of the #1 band are good enough to give the aspects a run for their money.
Damn. I pulled the same Eldritch/Nightmare combo, and was debating the whole time wether to run the epic version or the standard. I ended up going with the standard, so that I could afford two beaters (ogre skirmishers) and tech (spellscale sorceror). Ran 3-2 with it, with one of those losses beind Tiamats doing, and the other to...bad luck? | |
Champion of the Aspect of Tempus | |
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cerberuspuppy
Warrior
288 Posts
| | 07/02/2006 10:47 AM |
| | I pulled Tiamat, and my only two losses were to the other Tiamat player, who just outplayed me. Still, there were bands at the tourney that had me worried, and not just Bahamut. It's just that I never went up against Barney, Tordek, the SSE, etc. | |
Mine is an evil laugh! Muhahahaha!
-Wash, Firefly | |
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XAos
Underboss
2413 Posts
London
| | 07/02/2006 10:58 AM |
| I pulled eldritch giant + fire elemental with none of the epic rares. I could not even play the 2 huge figures & the promo spider, since thats over 500 points.
While I won 2 of 4 matches. I never had a serious chace to beat the stronger draws (Bahamut) My 2 wins were both against equally poor draws (fire elemental+troll) & (fire elemental+purple worm)
My first round was against a sorcerer-on-blackdragon on the kings road map[xx(] | | | |
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Paido
Skirmisher
36 Posts
| | 07/02/2006 11:04 AM |
| Montreal WotDQ Pre-release #1 (Carta Magica) :
68 Players
14 Aspects
Top 8 : Aspect of Tiamat x 5, Aspect of Bahamut x3
Final : Baham VS Baham
Carl La Terreur finished 9th with a non-aspect warband, then I ended up 10th with a Dracolich, then Aspects again ;-)
From what I've seen, a player with an Aspect got a huge advantage even if it wasn't a good player. Games that an Aspect could loose are against another Aspect and that's about it. | |
"And now, may I make a right choice, and change the evil fate of this unhappy day!"
Aragorn, The Two Towers | |
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neilasaurus
Sneak
134 Posts
| | 07/02/2006 11:08 AM |
| Well how about this... I pulled Tundra Scout (Yuck!), Mountain Troll, and of course Fiendish Spider Promo for Huges. For other Rares I got Magma Hurler and Fang Dragon. My only commander was Warden of the Wood. Still I managed to come in 4th out of 20. Tiamat+Human Blackguard won and was only thing I lost to. Bahamut came in third. A band with a Godslayer came in 2nd.
And to top it all off, the box I won had a Mountain Troll for the huge! I would have preffered even the non promo Spider! | |
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Chairman7w
Sergeant
484 Posts
| | 07/02/2006 11:54 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Paido
From what I've seen, a player with an Aspect got a huge advantage even if it wasn't a good player.
While not untrue, I ask, how is this different from pulling a Huge Red or Huge Gold in a GoL Pre-Release? Or a Large Silver in an Archfiends Pre-Release? The Best Pulls usually have an inherent advantage at a Pre-Release. That's always the case.
And your comment about "if it wasn't a good player..." I think that's part of what makes a Pre-Release fun. Those players that regularly get toasted at weekly league events may find themselves in the winner's seat for a change. I think that's good for the game.
quote:
Originally posted by Paido
Games that an Aspect could loose are against another Aspect and that's about it.
I DO think that the Aspects are strong, certainly, but with the Epic Slaughterstones, Epic Tordeks and Blue Barney's running around, their victories are not a given. | |
Dr. Simon: A phrase that's encoded in her brain, that makes her fall asleep. If I speak the words, "Eta...
Jayne: Well don't say it!
Zoë: It only works on her, Jayne. | |
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kgradert13
Sergeant
909 Posts
| | 07/02/2006 12:03 PM |
| While it can help newer players if they are the only ones to pull them, if the more experienced players pull them, it's worse on the newer players.
Our top 4 were regular players at our Tuesday night events, and all 4 got one of the Power 4 (Tordek, Slaughterstone, Tiamat, Bahamut)
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| The Defenestrator
AesophDarkfable
Warlord
5628 Posts
| | 07/02/2006 12:20 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Chairman7w
quote:
Originally posted by Paido
From what I've seen, a player with an Aspect got a huge advantage even if it wasn't a good player.
While not untrue, I ask, how is this different from pulling a Huge Red or Huge Gold in a GoL Pre-Release? Or a Large Silver in an Archfiends Pre-Release? The Best Pulls usually have an inherent advantage at a Pre-Release. That's always the case.
Well it is a little different because they were old sets and in those they were not building towards sealed as much as they have lately. Of late all the sets have been pretty very well balanced for sealed. Sure the HGB is a tank in WD sealed, but there are alot of other figures that can take it down and it gets a glaring weakness of weak morale save.
In this as a sealed environment there are a total of about 6 pieces (and 2 of them need to be together, eldritch +blackguard epic) that really have a clear shot at winning, that does drain some of the fun out of sealed for sure.
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Im out- find me on Hordelings if you want to chat. | |
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Orion72
Underboss
1917 Posts
| | 07/02/2006 12:34 PM |
| I came in third place out of around 20 in the Detroit event, without an Aspect or Tordek. Am I the exception that proves the rule?
I had a Worm and Tundra Scout led by non-Epic Blackguard. My only loss was to Bahamut, and even that came down to the wire. I faced Tiamat in the hands of a newbie and just crushed her.
Bahamut and Tiamat can take each other out, depending on map and player skill. Epic Tordek can take out either if played well. And the Purple Worm sees Tordek as a tasty dwarf snack rather than a threat.
The Aspects are tremendously powerful in sealed, as are a handful of other power pieces. But among those pieces, there's quite a bit of rock-paper-scissors. | | | |
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Chairman7w
Sergeant
484 Posts
| | 07/02/2006 1:10 PM |
| Bottom line, Good Pulls are often the determining factor in Pre-Releases.
If the other guy pulled better figs, he has an advantage.
I don't think anybody is disputing this.
I personally don't tie my "Having Fun" to getting a good pull. (everybody's different though)
Yesterday was the first time I ever ended up over .500 at a Pre-Release (in four of them). (Ended up 9th yesterday) But I've had fun every time.
Get together, see all your buddies, roll some dice, get a jump on the new set - all that's fun. Winning's just gravy. | |
Dr. Simon: A phrase that's encoded in her brain, that makes her fall asleep. If I speak the words, "Eta...
Jayne: Well don't say it!
Zoë: It only works on her, Jayne. | |
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jeremiahcarissa
Warrior
246 Posts
| | 07/02/2006 1:20 PM |
| I think my huges had to have been so terrible b\c there was atleast 4 bahamuts and 3-4 tiamats with godslayers everywhere. Here is what I had to show for huges and rares.
Huge Fire Elemental
Displacer Beast Pack Lord
Warden of the Woods
Clawfoot Rider
Cleric Trog
Cleric for LG
Small Fire Elemental
This is what I had to work with and guess what not only did I place 3rd but This band beat a Eldrich Giant/Tundra Scout combo and the icing on the cake came when my last match against a Tiamat. He took out my Fire elemental, and was up on points but decided that it wasn't enough he had to kill everyone...huge mistake. My Packlord in the final 2 rounds against Tiamat hit fot 140 HPs. One regular hit and 3 criticals in row drop the beast. He had 9 attacks on the beast 3 hit but 1 made it through the conceal. Go Packlord GO!! That and the winner was my only loss put me with the crapest team at third place.
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jeremiahcarissa
Warrior
246 Posts
| | 07/02/2006 1:20 PM |
| I think my huges had to have been so terrible b\c there was atleast 4 bahamuts and 3-4 tiamats with godslayers everywhere. Here is what I had to show for huges and rares.
Huge Fire Elemental
Displacer Beast Pack Lord
Warden of the Woods
Clawfoot Rider
Cleric Trog
Cleric for LG
Small Fire Elemental
This is what I had to work with and guess what not only did I place 3rd but This band beat a Eldrich Giant/Tundra Scout combo and the icing on the cake came when my last match against a Tiamat. He took out my Fire elemental, and was up on points but decided that it wasn't enough he had to kill everyone...huge mistake. My Packlord in the final 2 rounds against Tiamat hit fot 140 HPs. One regular hit and 3 criticals in row drop the beast. He had 9 attacks on the beast 3 hit but 1 made it through the conceal. Go Packlord GO!! That and the winner was my only loss put me with the crapest team at third place.
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Need Miniatures Painted? E-mail me at jeremiahschmidt2002@hotmail.com | |
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jeremiahcarissa
Warrior
246 Posts
| | 07/02/2006 1:22 PM |
| I think my huges had to have been so terrible b\c there was atleast 4 bahamuts and 3-4 tiamats with godslayers everywhere. Here is what I had to show for huges and rares.
Huge Fire Elemental
Displacer Beast Pack Lord
Warden of the Woods
Clawfoot Rider
Cleric Trog
Cleric for LG
Small Fire Elemental
This is what I had to work with and guess what not only did I place 3rd but This band beat a Eldrich Giant/Tundra Scout combo and the icing on the cake came when my last match against a Tiamat. He took out my Fire elemental, and was up on points but decided that it wasn't enough he had to kill everyone...huge mistake. My Packlord in the final 2 rounds against Tiamat hit fot 140 HPs. One regular hit and 3 criticals in row drop the beast. He had 9 attacks on the beast 3 hit but 1 made it through the conceal. Go Packlord GO!! That and the winner was my only loss put me with the crapest team at third place.
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Need Miniatures Painted? E-mail me at jeremiahschmidt2002@hotmail.com | |
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Dagni
Sergeant
870 Posts
| | 07/02/2006 2:54 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by IanB
I decided to leave the inflamatory part out of my title, but I think the sealed balance in this set is shaping up to be extremely bad.
[snip]
Given that there will be no spider safety net in future tournaments, I think there's a real potential for an unfun environment for the majority of players.
This is a common misapprehension I've heard. I'm 90% sure that this set is 200 pt legal for Sealed, and isn't even officially supported for 500 pt Sealed play.
The prerelease was a one-time event that wasn't very balanced. But that won't affect Sealed Qualifiers, for example - though I don't know what will be used for the Qualifiers, or what the entry fee will be, I can be pretty certain it will NOT be 500 pt WotDQ Sealed. Will the set be way too expensive, price-wise, for 200 pt Sealed play, and will it be balanced for Sealed play, with only 2 non-Huge Uncommons per booster? Don't know, but the prerelease didn't answer that question one way or the other.
As far as 500 pt balance, it wasn't simply that the Dragon Huges were all that. Many warbands had to waste 50+ points on creatures that weren't worth hardly anything. It was obvious when facing Kevizoid's Tordek band, or Martin's Epic Blackguard + Eldritch Giant band that they had awesome pulls of a rough equivalent to a decent Dragon god pull.
- Dagni
p.s. C'mon, Kevizoid! Your Tordek got swallowed with 25 hp left! True, even then it was important, but even if that failed, I only had to win init, at +4 commander difference, to kill him and surely win the game. In fact, as it happened, though it no longer mattered, I *did* win that init. | |
Proud member of the GRUUMSH fan club! | |
| The Defenestrator
AesophDarkfable
Warlord
5628 Posts
| | 07/02/2006 3:05 PM |
| | Good point on the 200 sealed Dagni. I wonder how it will play out. Im going to post in the ask wizards thread about the sealed qual format, see if Ian will respond. | |
Im out- find me on Hordelings if you want to chat. | |
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Kevizoid
Sergeant
373 Posts
Southern California
| | 07/02/2006 3:09 PM |
| | Yeah, but it makes for a way better story to just say my loss was because he was swallowed whole, besides had you lost the init before that you would have been in major trouble. | |
SoCal Colluder | |
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John05
Warrior
246 Posts
| | 07/02/2006 3:36 PM |
| I have to agree with IanB.
It says a lot against your argument if your argument is,
"I didn't pull an Aspect or Tordek and I STILL beat this newbie who pulled a Bahamut."
I pulled Dracolich, which I was forced to use because my band would not add up to 500 pts otherwise (would be about 350 to 400 pts at most with my other highest pt figures). I still came close to beating a Bahamut band... which, if you think about it, shouldn't be possible against a careful player. (It's a 140hp, 256pt meal for Bahamut, which can't use it's paralysis on over 50% of pieces in this set, 75% of the important ones.) He crit my spider, throwing off my math... FTW. So yeah, it's not absolutely impossible to win against the aspects when your opponent is green or he makes a mistake...
However, if a decent player such as IanB pulls an aspect, and he doesn't make a HUGE mistake, I wouldn't doubt that he'd make it to the top 4 (he won, obviously).
On the other hand, many highly skilled players I know didn't even make it to the top 8 because they ended up with junk like the Huge Fire Elemental and multiple Fiendish Spiders. (Please don't defend the spiders.)
Elder_basilisk (an undeniably good player) ended up going 1-3, only beating the Eldritch Giant + Blackguard band which was piloted by a new player. If it was Dorunur or I who had pulled Giant/Blackguard and played in that newbie's place (I dont mean to sound arrogant), Elder_Basilisk may have very well ended up with 0-4. The rest of us, after the tournament, looked at his pulls and agreed with him that he constructed the best band he could have, given his situation.
Dorunur, who finished #1 in Utah, also had problems, and had to drop early like the rest of us who didn't have much love in their pulls.
I have absolutely no doubt that if either he or elder_basilisk pulled Bahamut, or even Tiamat, they would have gotten top 4 easily. Heck, even I might have gotten into top 4 with those. Bahamut is very hard to lose in a 5-6 round game in the hands of a decent player. With speed 12, 250 hp, nigh-fearless morale, 27 AC, INITIATIVE 8 (!!!)...
It was a travesty to see some of the better players I know end up with 1-3, etc. The argument Ian is making isn't that "omg, Asp3cts R teh Winz!" He's saying that if a decent player pulls an aspect, he's almost guaranteed a top spot. The rest of the players are simply squeezed out.
Unfortunately, I didn't see anyone pull Tordek in that tournament, so I didn't see how well that piece would have done.
I was at least happy enough with the tournament that I actually pulled a huge rare (Dracolich). Even though I ended up with a crap sealed band... I pulled a huge rare. Good enough for me. The possibility of ending up like one of the poor schmucks who, not only lose miserably in the tournament, but end up getting no figures of value... even after paying $48 for the tournament... HIGHLY deters me from playing in another Sealed event.
Derry and I were commenting how illogical it was that they'd be making an Epic Golden Protector card a few months after the prerelease. (Why didn't they do that earlier?) They could have just made the Golden Protector epic to begin with so that we'd have more Epic rares to work with. That MIGHT have helped to balance Sealed. Why hand out epic Golden Protector cards a few months AFTER the prerelease, when they won't be as helpful? | |
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IanB
Commander
3112 Posts
| | 07/02/2006 6:01 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Dagni
quote:
Originally posted by IanB
I decided to leave the inflamatory part out of my title, but I think the sealed balance in this set is shaping up to be extremely bad.
[snip]
Given that there will be no spider safety net in future tournaments, I think there's a real potential for an unfun environment for the majority of players.
This is a common misapprehension I've heard. I'm 90% sure that this set is 200 pt legal for Sealed, and isn't even officially supported for 500 pt Sealed play.
The prerelease was a one-time event that wasn't very balanced.
If this is true, there has been no publicity of the fact. The only OP statement I've seen about this set for sealed purposes was talking about what a great draft set it is. I know local venues are talking about running more WotDQ sealed. I don't think this is simply a misapprehension.
Given that Blood War won't be out before sealed qualifiers, I think there's a potentially serious problem on the horizon here.
Building 200 point bands out of the 7 non-huges in the set is an awfully expensive way to play sealed, as an aside. | |
Anson on WotC boards | |
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Dagni
Sergeant
870 Posts
| | 07/02/2006 6:10 PM |
| OP statement: Specifically, the floor rules:
quote:
861. Recommended Sets for Limited Tournaments
Each Dungeons & Dragons Miniatures expansion is best suited for a specific warband limit in Limited play, whether Sealed or Booster Pack Draft. Tournament organizers should use the following warband limits based on which sets are used in the event.
100-Point Limited Play Sets
Harbinger™
Dragoneye™
Aberrations™
200-Point Limited Play Sets
Archfiends™
Giants of Legend™ (excluding the Huge models)
Deathknell™
Angelfire™
Underdark™
War Drums™
War of the Dragon Queen™ (excluding the Huge models)
Therefore, WotDQ is quite specifically a 200 pt Limited set.
- Dagni | |
Proud member of the GRUUMSH fan club! | |
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Dagni
Sergeant
870 Posts
| | 07/02/2006 6:16 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by IanB
Building 200 point bands out of the 7 non-huges in the set is an awfully expensive way to play sealed, as an aside.
That's what someone else said at the prerelease, when I said that I was pretty sure that it would be 200 pt play with WotDQ boosters.
I don't disagree, but... is it somehow less expensive if you play 500 pt?! Likewise, you still own the WotDQ boosters, huges and all. It's expensive, but WotDQ has a lot more minis in it that I want (and wouldn't be averse to having in multiples) regardless of DDM game purpose than any prior set, by far.
If I have to pay for yet two more boosters of War Drums at a Sealed qualifier, that would feel like more of a waste of money than if I have to spend more and buy two more boosters of WotDQ.
- Dagni | |
Proud member of the GRUUMSH fan club! | |
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jgsugden
Commander
4320 Posts
Walnut Creek, CA
| | 07/02/2006 7:02 PM |
| | Has anyone really looked at WotDQ as a 200 point sealed or draft set? It doesn't work very well, IMHO. After a few simulated pulls, I was disappointed very by the disparity. | |
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johnny.quest
Underboss
1386 Posts
| | 07/02/2006 7:28 PM |
| | League play at Gen Con will be 200 point as well. | | | |
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elder_basilisk
Sergeant
410 Posts
| | 07/02/2006 7:43 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by John05
Elder_basilisk (an undeniably good player) ended up going 1-3, only beating the Eldritch Giant + Blackguard band which was piloted by a new player. If it was Dorunur or I who had pulled Giant/Blackguard and played in that newbie's place (I dont mean to sound arrogant), Elder_Basilisk may have very well ended up with 0-4. The rest of us, after the tournament, looked at his pulls and agreed with him that he constructed the best band he could have, given his situation.
I would have ended up 0-4 even against the newbie if he hadn't (I think) been so shellshocked by his earlier losses to (presumably) decent bands that he didn't move his eldritch giant into the engagement until I'd had two free rounds of beating on his blackguard or if he had made more than one or two attacks with his blackguard in the game (he just kept him sitting on the victory area instead and didn't use the mounted flying melee attack to hit my spiders or even move up and start making full attacks on them until the very end; with mounted melee attack and flight, he could easily have wiped my cleric, spellscale sorcerer, and the warden of the wood off of the map and that alone would have got him the win (not even considering that my routing spider would have then been unable to rally).
The sad thing is that I wasn't the only one at the tournament with whose huge draw was fiendish spider+huge fire elemental. Having what seemed like a 25% chance of a draft that can't beat any other pull unless you make your first four DC 20 to 23 saves at +8 and hit every attack and your opponent misses some key attacks and you don't make mistakes and your opponent does (I got off a productive 1st round flame strike or briar web on my opponent's starting tile every game and used all of the spellscale's spells productively every game and had the cleric of Syreth around for every morale check and got at least one stun off on a meaningful enemy unit from the witchknife and did some damage with the cleric of Laogzed in every single game. My non-huges pulled their weight and then some. But fiendish spiders simply aren't good enough to even compete with the dracolich and huge fire elementals are even worse. If that's your pull (with no epic non-huges), you might as well drop before the first round because you will need the combination of a flawless game on your part, a mistake ridden game on your opponent's part, and a ridiculous luck differential to even have a chance to win any game at all.
quote:
Originally posted by John05
The possibility of ending up like one of the poor schmucks who, not only lose miserably in the tournament, but end up getting no figures of value... even after paying $48 for the tournament... HIGHLY deters me from playing in another Sealed event.
That's my take on it as well. I don't think I will be playing sealed WotDQ again. It's just not fun to auto-lose every single match--and my band would have been even worse without the promo spider (which won't be an option at other events). | |
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Felagund
Sergeant
922 Posts
| | 07/02/2006 7:45 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by johnny.quest
League play at Gen Con will be 200 point as well.
Where was this posted?
Unfortunately, I'm not really seeing a good option for sealed tournaments with WotDQ. I agree with Ian that the set is fairly unbalanced for Epic play. While I haven't done any tests or simulations for WotDQ sealed 200 pt. games, I can't imagine it is much better. Getting only 2 uncommons to work with will make it very hard to compensate for dud rares (of which there are many). | |
Champion of Gnomes | |
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johnny.quest
Underboss
1386 Posts
| | 07/02/2006 7:56 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Felagund
quote:
Originally posted by johnny.quest
League play at Gen Con will be 200 point as well.
Where was this posted?
Edit: Check out the Gen Con events catalog. The title of the event is "D&D Miniatures 200-point Limited - Convention League". The description also notes that two WotDQ boosters will be used.
I think it will be interesting, as the added figures you get for league play will really change things. | | | |
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