cerberuspuppy
Warrior
288 Posts
    
 | | 07/06/2006 9:11 PM |
| I tried this before, but maybe it didn't post before I logged off. Anyway:
What do you guys think of this warband?
Version 1:
Blackguard on Nightmare (68)
Justicator (48)
Zakya Rakshasa x2 (72)
Goblin Skirmisher x 2 (6)
Kobold Miner x2 (6)
8 acts, 200 points
Version 2:
Blackguard on Nightmare (68)
Large Green Dragon (51)
Zakya Rakshasa x2 (72)
Kobold Miner x3 (9)
7 acts, 200 points
I've got great morale, speed, and attack bonuses. I have no need of Magic Weapon, no spells, and the only elemental damage is the Blackguard's +5 Fire, although version 2 adds the dragon's breath weapon. Any of the hitters can flank for the Blackguard, and the dragon excels at it.
The only thing I really feel a lack of is raw damage output. With 15 base on only three hitters plus the Blackguard, that could be a problem. HP could also be an issue, especially since I need to survive long engagements to catch up in damage.
As for choosing between versions, I think the Large Green version will be better against Lawfuls, and the Justicator version will be better against chaotics.
If I wanted to build Bonnie + 4 hitters, how would you recommend doing it? | |
Mine is an evil laugh! Muhahahaha!
-Wash, Firefly | |
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robbdaman
Underboss
2380 Posts
| | 07/06/2006 10:21 PM |
| I'm looking at trying out this:
1X Blackguard on Nightmare
3X Duergar Champion
1X Snig the Axe (w/ 3X Goblin Skirmisher)
2X Timber Wolf
1X Kobold Miner
200 Pts - 10 Acts
Granted here I could easily drop the Miner for a Zak Rak if I wanted and still start out with more activations than my opponent.
R~ | |
Champion of the Titan
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Successful trades with: Tickparasite, Iyceman, Faragdar The Wise's friend, avrivah, Drakkengi, brucemc, Krush, maniacal_mini_monger, hung4treason, Gandy, NarlethDrider, Kunimatyu, etc, etc, blah, blah, blah..... | |
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Kalrin
Sneak
90 Posts
| | 07/07/2006 12:28 AM |
| I've been messing around with
Blackguard on Nightmare 68
Duergar Champ x2 66
Zakya Rakshasa 36
Timber Wolf 5
Dire Rat x2 8
Diseased Dire Rat 14
197 pts. 8 Activations.
It works nice. The trick with the Bonny Lass is to remember that you need to hold her back until everyone else is in place. | |
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True_Blue
Underboss
2386 Posts
| | 07/07/2006 3:30 AM |
| I definetely think you want to go with 3 hitters in there somewhere. While you can use the Blackguard as a hitter, you want her to be ran in there last, so she doesnt take a beating and then you have no commander or a commander 0 or something. DC's I think are the best for this.
The Snig one is nice becuase you will end up with a lot of activations. | |
Champion of a Knight of Takhisis/Knight of Neraka | |
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djtool
Sergeant
584 Posts
Crystal MN, USA
| | 07/07/2006 12:09 PM |
| I like zak raks with blackguard since their main deficiency is their lvl and tyrannical morale covers that.
I would not use green dragon as the flanking bonus isn't so necessary with the other pieces you've included.
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Champion of: Brain in a Jar | |
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Bluedevyl
Warrior
262 Posts
| | 07/07/2006 1:38 PM |
| I've recently been creamed at a local game (granted, they were mostly SW bands) by a Human Blackguard and 4 Zakyas... I'd try this:
200 points, 8 acts: Blackguard on Nightmare, 3x Zakya, Large Duergar, 3x Kobold Miners
This is an especially good band for a Cave of Pain game or against spellcasters and titans... the only bad matchups I can see are GAS and Shuluth... | |
Champion of Tanis Half-Elven | |
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robbdaman
Underboss
2380 Posts
| | 07/07/2006 1:46 PM |
| Well I played my variant yesterday on Vassal but my opponent was playing his Blackguard which consisted of 3 Chraals. ?![:0]?! I'm thinking to myself this is going to suck and it did. Of course I expressed that no one plays Chraals because every Coautl warband dismantles them in record time. So I wasn't happy since I don't feel it was a realistic test. And of course after failing almost all my saves and then missing all 4 attacks from the Blackguard and a Duergar after winning the key initiative basically ended the game. Stupid Vassal dice bot! I'll test this in a real life environment against something that isn't effectively a spoiler warband that no one would actually be playing.
R~ | |
Champion of the Titan
******************************************************************************************************************************************************
Successful trades with: Tickparasite, Iyceman, Faragdar The Wise's friend, avrivah, Drakkengi, brucemc, Krush, maniacal_mini_monger, hung4treason, Gandy, NarlethDrider, Kunimatyu, etc, etc, blah, blah, blah..... | |
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Gloom_
Sergeant
583 Posts
| | 07/08/2006 9:35 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by djtool
I like zak raks with blackguard since their main deficiency is their lvl and tyrannical morale covers that.
I would not use green dragon as the flanking bonus isn't so necessary with the other pieces you've included.
However with the Green Dragon build, you have 2x speed 8, 1x speed 9, 1x speed 10. You can pick and choose fights, and the Green Dragons Breath weapon gains slightly more utility in this sort of warband. | |
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cerberuspuppy
Warrior
288 Posts
| | 07/08/2006 10:16 AM |
| | One kinda funny note: The Zakyas have Spell Resistance, and the Dragon is immune to Acid. So the Spellscale might be a little stymied. Still, Ray of Enfeeblement would suck. I might have to make a habit of killing the little bugger with back to back acts from Large Green and Blackguard. | |
Mine is an evil laugh! Muhahahaha!
-Wash, Firefly | |
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Sirohk
Commander
3938 Posts
USA
| | 07/08/2006 11:36 AM |
| I don't have a Blackguard on Nightmare yet [V], but all of the warbands suggested look pretty good.
As the Blackguard is not too fragile, you could try adding in a Chraal for the large figure and breath weapon.
Blackguard 68
Zak 36
Chraal 35
DC 33
172 points
+ 28 pts other
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Sirohk, the Bard of Heartstone
Knight of the Rahshasa's
And Crusader of the Zakya, Ak'chazar, Naztharune, and Naityan Rakshasa's | |
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warty_nosed_goblin
Underboss
1384 Posts
| | 07/08/2006 11:48 AM |
| | Or perhaps an iron golem...but then again I always try to use an iron golem... | |
Call me: W.N. Gobo!
originally posted by grim:
While he is clearly insane, he does have a point. | |
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cerberuspuppy
Warrior
288 Posts
| | 07/08/2006 8:35 PM |
| | It seems almost a shame to use Fearless minis with a Blackguard, though. Most of them are pretty expensive anyway. | |
Mine is an evil laugh! Muhahahaha!
-Wash, Firefly | |
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cerberuspuppy
Warrior
288 Posts
| | 07/08/2006 8:55 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Sirohk
I don't have a Blackguard on Nightmare yet [V], but all of the warbands suggested look pretty good.
As the Blackguard is not too fragile, you could try adding in a Chraal for the large figure and breath weapon.
Blackguard 68
Zak 36
Chraal 35
DC 33
172 points
+ 28 pts other
I might try a Chraal, but they've fallen out of favor with me. Elemental damage is risky, and I don't want too much of it in a band. Chraals can't hit lawful ACs, and I can't really squeeze in the DMM that they require.
I also have terrible luck with MC for Chraals for some reason. I wish Tyrannical Morale triggered Death Burst.
Still, the speed and BW are good for the cost. | |
Mine is an evil laugh! Muhahahaha!
-Wash, Firefly | |
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azov_praetorian
Skirmisher
29 Posts
| | 07/09/2006 9:08 PM |
| I realy like the 4th band posted in the thread but i'm not a fanb of the 2x dire rats...my list would be...MHB, 2xDC, ZAK RAK, TW, Dragon wrought Kobold, diseaed rat...
I think the dragon wrought kobold gives a mutch needed flank bot, better hps and better dmg+hit ratio never hurt either...
the thing i'm warry of is that 3 pieces are filler tech which although usefull are less forgiving than a true LE quad band with minimal filler... | |
Champion Of Dopplegangers! | |
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Kalrin
Sneak
90 Posts
| | 07/10/2006 2:35 AM |
| Warning: Long Post.
quote:
Originally posted by azov_praetorian
I realy like the 4th band posted in the thread but i'm not a fan of the 2x dire rats...my list would be...MHB, 2xDC, ZAK RAK, TW, Dragon wrought Kobold, diseaed rat...
I think the dragon wrought kobold gives a mutch needed flank bot, better hps and better dmg+hit ratio never hurt either...
the thing i'm warry of is that 3 pieces are filler tech which although usefull are less forgiving than a true LE quad band with minimal filler...
One Dire rat is there to give the Diseased Dire Rat the damage boost (for 10 damage instead of 5. Makes a slight difference). The second rat is a spare in case the first gets killed too soon.
As for flanking... When I play this I try to use the Blink Out offensively, so either I use it for a quick killing raid or I use it to set up the flank. The latter is more risky cause it usually leaves her exposed.
I ran that exact band in a tournament recently. The results weren't the best testing of it, but here's the long and short:
1st match: GAS type band. I made a mistake and left my Bonny Lass hanging. Happy dice on my side saved me, and I won.
2nd match: GAS type band. My Map. my play was good, and honestly if my opponent hadn't had bad dice I would have stood a good chance of losing. As it was, it was close, but I won.
3rd match: Dire Bears with Warden (and some other stuff). I ended up on Keep of Fallen Kings. I probably could have won, but the Map killed me.
Conclusion: The band is Map Dependent. There are some matchups that are really bad if you end up on a bad map. Otherwise it's comparable to LE Quad. The Bonny Lass is decent for her points (Extended, not Core toolkit material).
I don't like the Chraal Option. It makes Gith Monks that much less winnable (because you can't hit worth a darn and the auto damage is only oh so much. Plus I think she's to fragile for a chraal. I don't have a second Zak, but I think that you could possibly upgrade a Champ for one (depending on metagame). | |
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Zozo
Warrior
218 Posts
| | 07/10/2006 10:16 AM |
| - Blackguard (68)
- Steel Predator (94)
- Snig+sniglets (20)
- Dragon wrought kobold (11)
- timber wolf(5)
198 pts 8 activations. Could be fun to play.[:P] | |
Champion of the Ixitxachitl | |
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cerberuspuppy
Warrior
288 Posts
| | 07/10/2006 1:59 PM |
| Kalrin: You've played the band, and for me it's still theory, so to a certain extent I should defer. However, I'm not so sure that it's so terribly map-dependent. It seems that the good speed, having only one large base (and that with Blink Out) would add maneuverability.
I can see how GAS would be a tough matchup, though. The Zakyas don't save so well, the monks have super AC, we're outnumbered 5-4, and that speed advantage becomes a speed deficit.
How much does the Large Green Dragon change all that? How about the Justicator? | |
Mine is an evil laugh! Muhahahaha!
-Wash, Firefly | |
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Kalrin
Sneak
90 Posts
| | 07/10/2006 10:28 PM |
| As I am lacking a Justicator or Green Dragon I couldn't really tell you. I'm not that familiar with either piece.
The Map Dependency isn't from the Manuverability aspect. It's from facing bands with a significant ranged component. Things like first turn LOS towards dropping Fireballs (or Flamestrikes and such) is the pain. And since you have very little in the way of resistances, you can't really afford those hits.
Of course I'm beginning to suspect that I've got a psychological blinds spot with respect to ranged warbands... | |
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cerberuspuppy
Warrior
288 Posts
| | 07/11/2006 1:54 PM |
| Lots of bands have more trouble with the fireball into the starting area than this one.
The good news is that most of those spells (in 200 point games) tend to cap out around 20 damage. The Zakya is really the only piece likely to fail those saves, and he has Spell Resistance. Flame Strike is 30 points, IIRC, but only radius 2- if we place the Justicator or Large Green closest to the enemy with nothing adjacent, then he (with saves of 10+ and HP at least 80) will be the only one hit.
Ranged attacks in general take some practice for both players. We've gotten used to not seeing them so much. The DC's conceal can help, lots of maps have plenty of cover, and you can always use fodder to screen or rotate the hitters as they approach so that none get MC before melee.
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Mine is an evil laugh! Muhahahaha!
-Wash, Firefly | |
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Kalrin
Sneak
90 Posts
| | 07/11/2006 3:03 PM |
| I'll have to practice with the ranged stuff. Maybe rotating hitters works better, but I know that personally I hate sacrificing Fodder before the engagement rounds.
Okay. Checked out the cards on the LGD and the Justicator.
I like the Justicator warband better then the LGD band. It just seems to work better. Both should play relatively similarly. However I can't offer play tips because both bands play differently then my version. Hopefully I'll eventually pull a LGD so I can practice this version.
My initial thoughts: My band is better against some stuff from LG (most notably Monks and Arcane Ballista. I don't know about Marut/Kord though). However against Quad Style builds it looks like you've got the one up. Hence you'd win in a Mirror Match. | |
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Tried
Sergeant
501 Posts
| | 07/11/2006 4:10 PM |
| I played blackguard/three chraal/DMM in the same tournament.
Also 2-1.
I lost to one of the Monk bands.
I needed to make either a save or to win init at a critical time, and I did neither. I did make one mistake in play.
All in all, my feeling is she is a little expensive for what you get, so she better be offsetting some other deficiency.
The large base is not particularly easy to defend, particulary vs monks.
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Let it be. | |
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cerberuspuppy
Warrior
288 Posts
| | 07/11/2006 10:57 PM |
| | The Blackguard on Nightmare has a tough learning curve, but I'm confident that with practice, she can be very strong. I haven't played her much, but I'll probably be back on vassal in a week or two. I am interested in testing with this piece, and I'm halfway decent at playing GAS, so I'll play the Blackguard or against it either way. | |
Mine is an evil laugh! Muhahahaha!
-Wash, Firefly | |
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cerberuspuppy
Warrior
288 Posts
| | 07/11/2006 11:03 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by robbdaman
I'm looking at trying out this:
1X Blackguard on Nightmare
3X Duergar Champion
1X Snig the Axe (w/ 3X Goblin Skirmisher)
2X Timber Wolf
1X Kobold Miner
200 Pts - 10 Acts
I should keep this in mind, and try a build with Snig. 9 or 10 activations would help me to make sure that the Blackguard activates last in the first round or two. | |
Mine is an evil laugh! Muhahahaha!
-Wash, Firefly | |
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cerberuspuppy
Warrior
288 Posts
| | 07/11/2006 11:19 PM |
| Which maps are good for Blackguard bands, and which maps are bad? All of our bands so far are all melee, so we want some cover from which to approach likely firing solutions. Lanes for charging might be nice, but we've got the speed to do without.
Assault points are a major consideration, and our tactics will vary between Kobold Miners and Timber Wolves.
I like the Tomb of Queen Pereguine, especially with an activation or initiative edge. I don't even need to get tile points right away, I can just block or kill the opponent's tile grabber. The Tomb is an Epic map, though, and as such might be too open.
The Fane is another possibility, but will probably be passed up in favor of something with less LOS between starting areas and more access to Victory Areas.
Any thoughts on a choice of map? | |
Mine is an evil laugh! Muhahahaha!
-Wash, Firefly | |
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Kalrin
Sneak
90 Posts
| | 07/12/2006 3:22 AM |
| Honestly Mushroom Cavern is an amazing choice. Manuverability is very valuable on that map (especially with the Blackguard) and you get nice choke points. Also, Tile Points are good (you can get first turn tile points and my version can usually deny first turn points as well).
I think I would (if I get the choice) go with both a Timber Wolf and a Kobold Miner. The Miner isn't garunteed to get his tile points, and if he does, well the wolf is Speed 10 and thus can be used for Flanking.
Keep in mind though, we've only got a Commander 4. So we don't actually have an init edge (or at least, we won't have much of one). Hence I have a reluctance for Tomb of Queen Peregrine or Fane of Loth. | |
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