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| | Author | Messages | |
bshugg
Underboss
1833 Posts
    
 | | 07/14/2006 1:10 PM |
| Now that we know what maps are out, what bands/figures can we dismiss? What bands will work?
Helmed horrors - Had trouble in an open format near the end. forced to play at least 2 games on dragonshrine is a big hit.
Gith Monks- The Giths favorite maps were Teleport, Dragon Shrine, and a map with forest on it. All three are options. Their other issue was Marut, Helmed horrors and Chraals. All three have trouble on the map choices. These seem like strong contenders
Couatl/Marut - It can be tough to manuver a Marut on the teleport temple but not impossible. I think its still possible, but takes a hit losing its map of choice (outpost or King's road)
Chraals - Probably won't do well on the shrine or other open maps. Takes a hit.
Couatl/Kord - prefers a restrictive environment, which none of the three maps really are. Takes a hit but still possible.
CE hitters - Still has trouble hitting, but should enjoy all three map choices. Definatly gets better. Would be a LOT better if monks weren't around.
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| Hero of Skirmish
doubtofbuddha
Commander
3371 Posts
| | 07/14/2006 1:14 PM |
| SWarm - A very plausible choice. Slightly unfavorable match-up for Gith Monks, and has two good maps and one average map.
CG hitters (Particularly FBs) - See CE hitters
LE hitters - take a hit. Their faster options are either energy reliant (large green dragon) or particularly vulnerable to monks (zakya rakshasas). Duergar suffer on the Teleport Temple. | |
I am not gone. | |
| Hero of Skirmish
doubtofbuddha
Commander
3371 Posts
| | 07/14/2006 1:15 PM |
| | I think Kord/Couatl is much more viable than Marut/Couatl at this point. Its speed allows it more flexibility in dealing with these maps. | |
I am not gone. | |
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Urban Druid
Warrior
253 Posts
| | 07/14/2006 1:18 PM |
| | Ballista bands are pretty much right out, too... [:(] | |
*This post was recorded before a live studio audience* | |
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bshugg
Underboss
1833 Posts
| | 07/14/2006 1:25 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Urban Druid
Ballista bands are pretty much right out, too... [:(]
Thats what I had been testing almost exclusively too. Its so good against the popular warband types. | |
Looking for someone to cosponser a midwest DDM event. let me know if your interested!
Check out my brand new blog:
http://bshugg.blogspot.com | |
| Hero of Skirmish
doubtofbuddha
Commander
3371 Posts
| | 07/14/2006 1:26 PM |
| | Yeah, in the worksheet I had put together it was one of the stronger contenders. Now? Meh. | |
I am not gone. | |
| Hero of Skirmish
doubtofbuddha
Commander
3371 Posts
| | 07/14/2006 1:27 PM |
| bshugg, this thread might also be of interest to you:
http://www.hordelings.com/frontend/forums/postView.php?post_id=4438&display=thread#4620 | |
I am not gone. | |
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Sharn Inquisitor
Underboss
1623 Posts
| | 07/14/2006 1:58 PM |
| | Does non-epic Tordek have Ghost Touch or is it Epic only? If so, I would think SWarm would have fits facing again him. Have people pretty much ruled Tordek out at this point? | | | |
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Gunthar
Commander
2938 Posts
| | 07/14/2006 2:12 PM |
| I just picked up the Grotto and haven't had a chance to examine it, but man, the map choices were probably the worst ones for the main band I was working on. I think Zakyas will be solid because the maps seem to like Sacred Watchers (and other flying units, but especially fearless, incorporeal ones) a lot. The won't be the only hitters, but they'll be in the mix for LE.
Commander rating will be big as you really want side initiative I think, and commander SPEED and maybe durability will also be big if you need them anywhere near the fight. Cleric of Yondalla for anti-titan tech and a rating? I think not. | |
Champion of Prit(Wemic vindication is here)
Minneapolis/St. Paul area
Completed trades: Aspect of Cheese (Love that moniker), Tickparasite, Elderthing, Lalato, Sodj, Grimoire, SmilinIrish, Zeb, RWarehall,Link, wikkawikkawa, Auramancer, Rommers, HK, Ivid5,Qillan_dvra, Puggins, Arcabius, Ironfist Boulderbender, Robby, Corim Danex, monster_slayer, DNDJUNKIE, Kelemvor, Krush, ckissee, Massawyrm, hockey fan, Wish, Uninspiring Lieutenant, vtloon x2, Vrecknidj, Darthpoke, WakeXX, AnarionZell, lycusmike, papabear5 and umpteen local trades with board members
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| Hero of Skirmish
doubtofbuddha
Commander
3371 Posts
| | 07/14/2006 2:12 PM |
| 1. Tordek is Speed 6 which is no fun on the Teleport Temple
2. Tordek does 15 magic + 5 electricty, which is also no fun on the Dragon Shrine. | |
I am not gone. | |
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YRM_DM
Sergeant
905 Posts
| | 07/14/2006 2:38 PM |
| Some variety of dragons might be good, even nerfing a bit of damage due to the Dragon Shrine.
1 - Flying is very useful on the forest map, and even nice for setting up charges on teleport temple.
2 - Dragons tend to have highish saves, which is nice vs monks.
3 - Dragons generally are on the higher end of HP, so they can stick around a bit. High saves and high HP are the best things going if you don't have fearless.
Without as many constructs (Maruts, Helmed Horrors, Iron Golems, etc) and probably fewer Duergar, LSD bands could be competitive (sure, it's got to route or paralyze a few Monks rather than let all 4 hit for 30 each).
Versions of Large Red Beatings?
Versions of LSD + Couatl or other LG tech/commander?
Could DTH+LGD+LRD (or fang) or Mina+LGD+LRD be competitive?
Since map initiative won't be as important, it's possible that you could catch people napping by bringing a 6+ commander, gaining activation control, and using 4 key back to back activations to out hit a band that otherwise hits harder. | |
Completed good trades with Demagogue, PigSnot, DoB, and Alepulp.
I know you can hear MY thoughts... Meow, Meow, Meow, Meow, Meow, Meow, Meow, Meow... | |
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YRM_DM
Sergeant
905 Posts
| | 07/14/2006 2:39 PM |
| | Also, I'm sure you guys have tested this, but, do Ballista bands get better on Teleport Temple if you use the War Weaver with the band to put the Ballista instantly on a teleporter just like you might with Bahamut in 500pt play? | |
Completed good trades with Demagogue, PigSnot, DoB, and Alepulp.
I know you can hear MY thoughts... Meow, Meow, Meow, Meow, Meow, Meow, Meow, Meow... | |
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Gunthar
Commander
2938 Posts
| | 07/14/2006 3:00 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by doubtofbuddha
1. Tordek is Speed 6 which is no fun on the Teleport Temple
2. Tordek does 15 magic + 5 electricty, which is also no fun on the Dragon Shrine.
Yep. My main build I was working on used the feisty runt and a slow commander, but now, I'm thinking not. For 11 points less, you get a Justicator with a Smite Chaos abd Flight for maneuverability, especially if my first glances at the Grotto map are an indication of how it will play. | |
Champion of Prit(Wemic vindication is here)
Minneapolis/St. Paul area
Completed trades: Aspect of Cheese (Love that moniker), Tickparasite, Elderthing, Lalato, Sodj, Grimoire, SmilinIrish, Zeb, RWarehall,Link, wikkawikkawa, Auramancer, Rommers, HK, Ivid5,Qillan_dvra, Puggins, Arcabius, Ironfist Boulderbender, Robby, Corim Danex, monster_slayer, DNDJUNKIE, Kelemvor, Krush, ckissee, Massawyrm, hockey fan, Wish, Uninspiring Lieutenant, vtloon x2, Vrecknidj, Darthpoke, WakeXX, AnarionZell, lycusmike, papabear5 and umpteen local trades with board members
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SneakyJoeKDB
Sergeant
593 Posts
Utah
| | 07/14/2006 3:13 PM |
| | What about HGB? Not a bad choice. | |
"Like a thief in the Night"
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| Hero of Skirmish
doubtofbuddha
Commander
3371 Posts
| | 07/14/2006 3:20 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Gunthar
Yep. My main build I was working on used the feisty runt and a slow commander, but now, I'm thinking not. For 11 points less, you get a Justicator with a Smite Chaos abd Flight for maneuverability, especially if my first glances at the Grotto map are an indication of how it will play.
Yeah, I really tried to get LG Quad to work, but I think they are missing a nice general-purpose piece like the zakya rakshasa or duergar champion. Once LG has that, it will be able to field its own, competitive Quads... | |
I am not gone. | |
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nedleeds
Warrior
240 Posts
| | 07/14/2006 3:34 PM |
| I think it'll break down to Monks ruling the day. They may not win, but of the, let's say, top 16, 1/2 will be Monks.
Not only are the maps to their liking but they don't have to roll to hit. And rolling is never a good thing. | |
Champion of Zarak - Evil Half-Orc Assassin | |
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Chairman7w
Sergeant
484 Posts
| | 07/14/2006 4:03 PM |
| quote:
Ned said: "I think it'll break down to Monks ruling the day."
Well said, Ned. [)]
If I was forced at gunpoint to bet on the winning band, I'd pick GAS. With Helmed Horrors and Maruts getting a bit shafted in maps, I think they will rise. | |
Dr. Simon: A phrase that's encoded in her brain, that makes her fall asleep. If I speak the words, "Eta...
Jayne: Well don't say it!
Zoë: It only works on her, Jayne. | |
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Gnolaum
Sergeant
855 Posts
| | 07/14/2006 4:04 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by nedleeds
And rolling is never a good thing.
Except when you roll a 20.... Oh, wait.... | | | |
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SneakyJoeKDB
Sergeant
593 Posts
Utah
| | 07/14/2006 4:06 PM |
| | That settles it you bring your monks, Ill bring 4 Firebelchers and Dragonshrine still has Belchers delivering 15 damage + splash. | |
"Like a thief in the Night"
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| Hero of Skirmish
doubtofbuddha
Commander
3371 Posts
| | 07/14/2006 4:18 PM |
| | Yes, and all these maps are open enough to allow for easy ganging up by squads of larges on individual units. | |
I am not gone. | |
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Gnolaum
Sergeant
855 Posts
| | 07/14/2006 4:18 PM |
| Hard to belch when stunned.
Although I do like a variant of the Kord band you beat me with. I'd prefer the fodder to be Devis, and 3x Xephs though. It certainly is fun killing a Marut on turn 1. | | | |
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SneakyJoeKDB
Sergeant
593 Posts
Utah
| | 07/14/2006 4:24 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Gnolaum
Hard to belch when stunned.
Although I do like a variant of the Kord band you beat me with. I'd prefer the fodder to be Devis, and 3x Xephs though. It certainly is fun killing a Marut on turn 1.
Sssssssssshhhhh. I am still considering that band option. side note, the Belchers will include a Wardrummer stun saves at +12 then to switch to intimidate for monk fleeing madness. | |
"Like a thief in the Night"
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Fry
Underboss
1724 Posts
| | 07/14/2006 4:40 PM |
| | Hill Giants like teleporters. Hill Giants like magic circles near the victory areas. Hill Giants like not having to fight Maruts in tight spaces. Hill Giants like not having to fight Ballistas at all. | |
"Why am I all sticky and naked? Did I miss something fun?"
-Vindicated champion of Tordek, Dwarf Champion | |
| Hero of Skirmish
doubtofbuddha
Commander
3371 Posts
| | 07/14/2006 4:41 PM |
| | Hill Giants like guys that can do a maximum of 10 to 20 damage a turn and only take 3 hits to kill. [:P] | |
I am not gone. | |
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SneakyJoeKDB
Sergeant
593 Posts
Utah
| | 07/14/2006 4:50 PM |
| | I think belchers would have a good chance against Hill Giants, they can deliver 80 damage a round in belching. Of course it will boiling down to the variance of the Hill Giants Dice since the Belchers dont require dice for the belch damage. | |
"Like a thief in the Night"
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| Hero of Skirmish
doubtofbuddha
Commander
3371 Posts
| | 07/14/2006 4:52 PM |
| | Yes, they can inflict that much, but in most of my testing it has been difficult to get all the belchers into position where they can target the same guy. Particularly if you send each of the hill giants after a different belcher, they might have difficulty getting the damage where it needs to be. | |
I am not gone. | |
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Venport
Sergeant
739 Posts
| | 07/14/2006 4:54 PM |
| | Hill giants don;t like 4 stun staves (even with the dumber) | |
Sacramento DDM http://www.maxminis.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=16854
New world Project http://www.maxminis.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=20745
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SneakyJoeKDB
Sergeant
593 Posts
Utah
| | 07/14/2006 5:09 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by doubtofbuddha
Yes, they can inflict that much, but in most of my testing it has been difficult to get all the belchers into position where they can target the same guy. Particularly if you send each of the hill giants after a different belcher, they might have difficulty getting the damage where it needs to be.
I see your point, but with the openness of the championship maps and the teleporters, in theory, it would seem that getting the belchers where you want wont be as much of a problem. Also, speed 8 with a range 6 seems very able to find the sweet spots.
But, yes if I truly plan to take this band I will be play testing it on all the championship maps against the more obvious competitive builds......Monks, HGBs, and Swarm. | |
"Like a thief in the Night"
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Vrecknidj
Warlord
10493 Posts
United States
| | 07/15/2006 7:24 AM |
| If a quarter of the people there are running Gith Monks, and if Marut/Couatl and Kord/Couatl bands really drop in significance, then elemental damage (even with the Dragonshrine around) can still be significant. It's not, after all, like on the Dragonshrine all elements are automatically at Resist 5.
Heck, the Gauth might actually be serviceable again if there are significantly fewer LG bands being played.
Dave | |
Knowledge Arcana editor issues 5-9, Phoenix Lore Magazine editor, assistant editor for Rite Publishing;
My Trade Thread and My Reference Thread; Winner of WBC IV, IX and XIII; Rule #0: bshugg is always right! | |
| Hero of Skirmish
doubtofbuddha
Commander
3371 Posts
| | 07/15/2006 8:26 AM |
| Do you expect a quarter of the people to be running Gith Monks?
The thing about suddenly hoping on the elemental damage bandwagon is that if you guess wrong about the metagame in that respect than suddenly you are in a very bad position. There are bands that do reasonably well against Gith Monks, on these maps, that don't have that problem. | |
I am not gone. | |
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XAos
Underboss
2413 Posts
London
| | 07/15/2006 9:14 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Urban Druid
Ballista bands are pretty much right out, too... [:(]
Huh, why...[?]
Ballistas work fairly well on teleport temple. The central hall of the Dragon shrine has good LoS & the clifftop overlooking the objective area looks like a good firing spot.
How about a Ballista, war weaver & 3 Sacred watchers for the core of the warband. Warweaver gives all 3 sacred watchers magic weapon. And then snakes swiftness the ballista.
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Sirohk
Commander
3938 Posts
USA
| | 07/15/2006 10:04 AM |
| My $0.02:
GAS will show up numbers - fast, they do not rely on elemental damage, and Stunning Attack really hurts.
SWarm / Sacred Watchers will make a showing. Incorpreal kicks butt. I also like SW with the War Weaver - give 3 SW's all magic weapon.
HGB may show up in small qnty just based on thier speed. What support figures are included will be important.
LE hitters / Quad will make a showing. I agree you'll see less HH and Chrall. But with the Chraal speed and HH fly, someone will try them.
CE hitters / quad will show up. High damage and high speed work well on all 3 maps. But how do you deal with GAS (high AC & getting stunned is not pretty)?
Titans - I like Kord on these maps (Except for maybe Dragon Shrine as no chance to rally if you fail MC). Marut somewhat nerfed on the maps due to slow speed and no fly (except for maybe that NOST warband that used Marut,Couatl, and Mephling Pyromancer to make a flying Marut).
Ballista - I agree somewhat nerfed by the maps, but someone will find a way to make it work.
Archmage - should show up, but will likely have a hard time on maps, especially if not practiced on.
Dragons - I think there is some potentail for dragons (LRD, LSD, other), but who knows. Nerfing damage on Dragon Shrine hurts.
Cadaver Collector - bye bye. He will not show up.
Cheers.
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Sirohk, the Bard of Heartstone
Knight of the Rahshasa's
And Crusader of the Zakya, Ak'chazar, Naztharune, and Naityan Rakshasa's | |
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SneakyJoeKDB
Sergeant
593 Posts
Utah
| | 07/15/2006 1:45 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by doubtofbuddha
Do you expect a quarter of the people to be running Gith Monks?
Well when I was discussing bands with others on vassal one of the first bands thought to be expected in large amounts was the Gith Monk bands. Those maps strongly favor them. So yes I expect to see a large amount of Gith Bands.
Your right its a guessing game, although the grinder wont be played with the same map format it will be interesting to see what people bring, possibly giving a heads up of what will be seen at the championships.
So I plan to bring a few different bands that I have practiced with and will determine which one to use on the day of. I am not ruling out elemental damage. | |
"Like a thief in the Night"
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elder_basilisk
Sergeant
410 Posts
| | 07/15/2006 4:02 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by XAos
quote:
Originally posted by Urban Druid
Ballista bands are pretty much right out, too... [:(]
Huh, why...[?]
Ballistas work fairly well on teleport temple. The central hall of the Dragon shrine has good LoS & the clifftop overlooking the objective area looks like a good firing spot.
Ballistas may work ok on teleport temple--if you immediately dimension hop them onto a teleporter. Otherwise, they're going to be waiting until turn 3 to fire.
The central hall of the dragon shrine has passable LOS--as long as you start on the cold side. If you end up on fire side, you have to double move round 1 and then move again in round 2 to get LoS. If the ballista is your primary hitter that really cuts down on your damage.
The clifftop overlooking the objective areas of the forest clifftop lair is great... except that all your targets pick up conceal 11 and there is forest and a cliff face to block your fire as enemies approach.
None of the maps are good for ballistas. Dragonshrine can be passable if you win setup initiative, but if you don't you're in a world of hurt. The clifftop lair is all bad for ballistas. There's no way around that. And the teleport temple I think limits you to a war-weaver, coatl, arcane ballista, sacred watchers build which, while ok precludes the use of Kord or a marut as blockers and is essentially a single-hitter band with the ballista as that hitter. This exacerbates its bad matchups against the bands that the maps make more likely to show up: monks, SWarm, LE Quad, etc. | |
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| Master of the
Awesome Sauce
Teflon Jeff
Warlord
7908 Posts
Sector 2814
| | 07/15/2006 4:37 PM |
| Well, I'm not qualifying at the grinder, so here's what I would have played had I qualified. It probably wouldn't have won, but it's an interesting build, nonetheless.
Tiefling Captain 21
Red Samurai x2 101
Orc Champion 140
Orc Wardrummer 159
Harpy x2 189
Grave hound 200
With less Stun-proofing, the harpies can get two songs off at, with the wardrummer, effectively DC 17. Add in the grave hound and his unlimited stun (dc 16, possibly higher), and it makes for an interesting concept. The only reason I went with the Red Sam's is I have only one (Chainmal even) Orc Champ. | |
Official Delegate, Wizards of the Coast
Icons Called Shot: Gargantuan Prismatic Dragon
"Rejoice, for bad things are about to happen." | |
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Kithmaker
Commander
3926 Posts
| | 07/15/2006 5:01 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Teflon Jeff
With less Stun-proofing, the harpies can get two songs off at, with the wardrummer, effectively DC 17. Add in the grave hound and his unlimited stun (dc 16, possibly higher), and it makes for an interesting concept.
Er, you do realize that the Wardrummer can only negatively affect enemy morale saves, yes? | |
My H/W list is not current...
Trade Reference List
OLD Trade references (191) | |
| Master of the
Awesome Sauce
Teflon Jeff
Warlord
7908 Posts
Sector 2814
| | 07/15/2006 5:06 PM |
| | DOH!! I knew there was another reason I ruled this one out during qualifiers. Never mind, ignore the man behind the curtain. Still, I do love the harpy... so I would have played some variant with harpies. | |
Official Delegate, Wizards of the Coast
Icons Called Shot: Gargantuan Prismatic Dragon
"Rejoice, for bad things are about to happen." | |
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SYB
Warrior
328 Posts
| | 07/15/2006 5:55 PM |
| I disagree that Ballista doesn't work on the "cave" map. If you win side initiative, pick the forested side. Everyone keeps saying that you give your opponent conceal 11 on that map. But that is only true if you are shooting through the curtain.
If you use the Ballista as DEFENSE to keep your opponent from getting VPs, then you don't shoot through the curtain. One Ballista can easily snipe any units your opponent sticks in the victory area, and by sitting just in the tree line, it is practically invulnerable.
Teleport Temple is also good for the Ballista (assuming the War Weaver).
Dragon Shrine is the map that the Ballista seems to suffer on (and suffer badly from my experience). It is almost impossible to not give your opponent cover on that map.
-SYB | |
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elder_basilisk
Sergeant
410 Posts
| | 07/15/2006 6:39 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by SYB
I disagree that Ballista doesn't work on the "cave" map. If you win side initiative, pick the forested side. Everyone keeps saying that you give your opponent conceal 11 on that map. But that is only true if you are shooting through the curtain.
If you use the Ballista as DEFENSE to keep your opponent from getting VPs, then you don't shoot through the curtain. One Ballista can easily snipe any units your opponent sticks in the victory area, and by sitting just in the tree line, it is practically invulnerable.
Practically invulnerable is way too strong. It's still not that hard to hit. And it still needs a spellcaster adjacent to it in order to fire. (In the build we're talking about, that's either the war-weaver, coatl, or the cleric of Yondalla, none of which can really afford to stay put while an enemy beater pounds on them).
The key factor however, is where it is possible to set the ballista up. If you win initiative and take the forest side, you can get LoS to the opponent's victory area. However, the forest along the other side of the map offers a sheltered approach to the ballista that enables an opponent to move right up to you without offering you any shots at all. If they stay in the forest, you can't even get a shot by dimension hopping and moving to the other side. And that's your BEST position on the board. On the other side, you have conceal 11 and are taking shots at a sheltered approach and don't have forest for your ballista.
I frequently play triple justicator builds which is about the worst matchup imaginable against arcane ballista builds of any stripe. On Dragonshrine, it is a highly unfavorable matchup if I get stuck with the fire side and a mildly unfavorable matchup if I get to take the cold side. On Forest Cliff Lair, I think it's a favorable matchup for me. I don't see how you're going to get any shots in before the justicators have made it up to your ballista. (And if the ballista is entirely in the forest so as to be able to shoot while based, I can just kill the adjacent spellcaster while standing in forest myself and again not give you a shot).
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Gunthar
Commander
2938 Posts
| | 07/15/2006 10:02 PM |
| | I found a wqarband I want to try out, but already discovered a tweak to make it a whole lot better in many matchups. The Problem? ONE POINT SHORT. | |
Champion of Prit(Wemic vindication is here)
Minneapolis/St. Paul area
Completed trades: Aspect of Cheese (Love that moniker), Tickparasite, Elderthing, Lalato, Sodj, Grimoire, SmilinIrish, Zeb, RWarehall,Link, wikkawikkawa, Auramancer, Rommers, HK, Ivid5,Qillan_dvra, Puggins, Arcabius, Ironfist Boulderbender, Robby, Corim Danex, monster_slayer, DNDJUNKIE, Kelemvor, Krush, ckissee, Massawyrm, hockey fan, Wish, Uninspiring Lieutenant, vtloon x2, Vrecknidj, Darthpoke, WakeXX, AnarionZell, lycusmike, papabear5 and umpteen local trades with board members
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