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Kithmaker
Commander
3926 Posts
    
 | | 07/15/2006 11:25 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Gunthar
I found a wqarband I want to try out, but already discovered a tweak to make it a whole lot better in many matchups. The Problem? ONE POINT SHORT.
I hate that. Seems I've had that happen several times when trying to come up with killer builds. | |
My H/W list is not current...
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Vrecknidj
Warlord
10493 Posts
United States
| | 07/16/2006 8:09 AM |
| I'm thinking my triple Iron Golem band is probably out. [:)]
I don't know about Aspect of Moradin. There are a lot of walls on the Teleport Temple and Dragon Shrine, and there are plenty of walls on one side of the Forest Cliff Lair.
But, I'm not sure if I'm comfortable with...
Aspect of Moradin
Tordek
War Weaver
Man-at-Arms x5
Even if three of those Men will have bull's strength.
Dave | |
Knowledge Arcana editor issues 5-9, Phoenix Lore Magazine editor, assistant editor for Rite Publishing;
My Trade Thread and My Reference Thread; Winner of WBC IV, IX and XIII; Rule #0: bshugg is always right! | |
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CTSparky
Sneak
128 Posts
| | 07/16/2006 8:34 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by XAos
quote:
Originally posted by Urban Druid
Ballista bands are pretty much right out, too... [:(]
Huh, why...[?]
Ballistas work fairly well on teleport temple. The central hall of the Dragon shrine has good LoS & the clifftop overlooking the objective area looks like a good firing spot.
How about a Ballista, war weaver & 3 Sacred watchers for the core of the warband. Warweaver gives all 3 sacred watchers magic weapon. And then snakes swiftness the ballista.
Well I know after playing the lair that the ballista needs to be in the waterfall itself otherwise can you say conceal 11? Also I'll have you note that the lair is not open at all. | |
I have yet to be Guyf'd. But I have been f'ed. | |
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Gunthar
Commander
2938 Posts
| | 07/16/2006 9:30 AM |
| Dave brings up an interesting point in regards to the Cliff map: Is it more important to GET tile points, or DENY tile points on that map? As faster band that wins initiative can mostly deny another band's tile points but getting your own is also tricky.
For poops and giggles, assume you're playing Kord/Couatl on side A: Kord and Couatl start on the righ side with Kord forward inside and the Couatl outside. It will likely take Snake's Swiftness if the opposition sets up correctly, even with Rikka, but Kord can swing at any space on the B Victory Area round one that way or four squares on his own. Expsong him to a fireball doesn't do much as the Couatl will still be within 6.
Conversely, if Kord himself goes for tile points, well, he can't get there round 1, he's one square short because he's a large. There for, you need a wolf (or other speed 10+/F9+) in the prime starting position to get there, and it's going to have NO support most likely until the second round. If you lose initiative in that second round, you may be hosed. If your opponant is running a CE quad with three Orc Champs, for example, starting from the right side, all three can be in position for full attacks at the beginning of round 2 (although all could be coned if you were running the Large Green in an LE band instead of a Kord). It could also end up a bit like King's Road where the fight often happens over the shared victory area but on this map, it's not shared. Again, this favors speed if you go for tile points.
Because of this map (the only "small" map of the three) the Diseased Dire Rat may become an important tech piece. But, he's 14 points and won't last long vs. a beefy tile grabber, which is likely to be what you'll face. Still, if Kord/non-cleaving beatstick/whatever has to spend an attack on the rat that's also good.
Because of the rat, LE may be in a good position for the championships. That said, this map could result in a lot of slow play just trying point denial and rushing to a victory point score at the end. | |
Champion of Prit(Wemic vindication is here)
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KuH
Warrior
293 Posts
| | 07/16/2006 2:41 PM |
| Correct me if I'm wrong on the Arcane Ballista, but doesn't the Lightning Sphere count as a special ability, not a ranged attack? If so, you have one round of attacks you can use through the waterfall at 100% success rate.
If you start on the forest side, you can (as mentioned earlier) nicely get into the forest and have clear lines of attack to take opponents off their victory area, with a clear shot (and 50% miss chance) to anyone fighting on your victory area.
If you start on the cliff side, a similar principle applies. You can also set up blockers nicely to keep attackers away from the Ballista - unless they come in through the waterfall. | |
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XAos
Underboss
2413 Posts
London
| | 07/16/2006 3:51 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by elder_basilisk
quote:
Originally posted by XAos
quote:
Originally posted by Urban Druid
Ballista bands are pretty much right out, too... [:(]
Huh, why...[?]
Ballistas work fairly well on teleport temple. The central hall of the Dragon shrine has good LoS & the clifftop overlooking the objective area looks like a good firing spot.
Ballistas may work ok on teleport temple--if you immediately dimension hop them onto a teleporter. Otherwise, they're going to be waiting until turn 3 to fire.
Turn:3 is not a problem. Provided your opponent also can't achieve much for the first 2 turns. The sacred watchers pretty much garentee you get Assault points on that map so your opponent may have to come to you. Which is the best strategy for a ballista.
quote:
The central hall of the dragon shrine has passable LOS--as long as you start on the cold side. If you end up on fire side, you have to double move round 1 and then move again in round 2 to get LoS. If the ballista is your primary hitter that really cuts down on your damage.
OK, the fire end would be a problem. But Ballistas are always support, primary hitter for LG are either; {Marut, Eviserator, or a swarm of Sacred watchers}
quote:
The clifftop overlooking the objective areas of the forest clifftop lair is great... except that all your targets pick up conceal 11 and there is forest and a cliff face to block your fire as enemies approach.
My misstake, That set of maps only been in the (UK) shops about 1 day before I posted this. Thought it was the map with all the cliffs & the death zone in the middle. Not the waterfall, oops...
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Avatar of the Tank
Newtoncain
Commander
2985 Posts
Land of 10,000 taxes
| | 07/16/2006 7:19 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Gunthar
That said, this map could result in a lot of slow play just trying point denial and rushing to a victory point score at the end.
I expect to see lots of slow play in the grinder and championships.[:(]
I can forgive 1 or 2 moments that require extra thought, but not an entire hour. | |
They just don't know what's good in life...Conan, tell them what is good in life.
To rip the boosters. To count the minis spilled out before you, and to hear the indifference of the women... | |
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elder_basilisk
Sergeant
410 Posts
| | 07/16/2006 7:21 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by XAos
Turn:3 is not a problem. Provided your opponent also can't achieve much for the first 2 turns. The sacred watchers pretty much garentee you get Assault points on that map so your opponent may have to come to you. Which is the best strategy for a ballista.
If your opponent cannot accomplish anything in the first two turns, then they're playing a band that is even worse on teleport temple than a ballista band. If you end up on the bad side of the teleport temple map, then any band with speed six creatures can block all of your teleporters on the first round. If you end up on the good side, they can still block them both with speed 8 figures.
It's also important to consider what else is in your band at this point because the assertions you are making glom all of the potential ballista builds together. The ballista builds that I've observed or seen discussed are:
Ballista+coatl+marut
Ballista+kord+marut
Ballista+coatl x3
Ballista+coatl x2+3 sacred watchers
Ballista+coatl+warweaver+ 3 sacred watchers
In three of those builds, the ballista is indeed the only significant hitter (because it won't be doing any hitting at all if the sacred watchers aren't blocking for it and three non-boosted sacred watchers only marginally add up to a 30ish point hitter anyway--and they cost 56 points).
The other builds that pack a significant threat other than the ballista do not pack any sacred watchers--there just isn't room. (Note that they don't pack a war-weaver either).
quote:
quote:
The central hall of the dragon shrine has passable LOS--as long as you start on the cold side. If you end up on fire side, you have to double move round 1 and then move again in round 2 to get LoS. If the ballista is your primary hitter that really cuts down on your damage.
OK, the fire end would be a problem. But Ballistas are always support, primary hitter for LG are either; {Marut, Eviserator, or a swarm of Sacred watchers}
Not really. A marut or Kord are both blockers and hitters. I've yet to see a build with an eviscerator (which dwarf commander are you going to tie it to anyway?) The sacred watchers that go in a double coatl or coatl/warweaver ballista band don't perform the function of hitters. Rather, they keep the ballista from being based and ceasing to fire at all.
And you can't count on avoiding the fire side of the dragon shrine either. A significant disadvantage in roughly half of your matches that occur on dragonshrine is pretty bad.
When you add it up, you cound 3 matches on a highly disadvantageous map, 2 matches on a map that will be significantly disadvantageous if you don't win side init, and 2 more matches on a map that is hugely disadvanatageous unless you are using one of the war-weaver builds (the ones that have the most trouble dealing with medium based hitter bands and the most trouble on the forest cliff lair). That's not a recipe for a band that is going to win the championships. And it gets worse when you consider that your first match will be on the most disadvantageous map for you. Starting the tourney by dropping into the losers' bracket is not a good way to win the championships.
And that doesn't take the meta-game into consideration. People are talking about GAS and SWarm for obvious reasons. And those are two of | |
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Janos M.
Underboss
1015 Posts
Hamburg / GErmany
| | 07/17/2006 4:55 AM |
| For the championships:
GAS will have a showing - speed, auto damage, high AC
COuatl/Titan build will have a showing - reliable, high AC and attack
Swarm will have a showing - tricky (incorporeal), flying
CE Slaads will have a showing - counter to LG
CA HGB might have a showing - low attack, high HP and damage
CE Quad Beater might have a showing - low AC/save, high damage
LE Beater/Dragon might have a showing - moderate att. dam., moderate saves,
CG Warchanter beater might have a showing - not really good, but gets sympathy
all others like:
Ballista, CG Inspired, LE Chraal heavy, LG tripple beater (Justice Archons, Justicator, Golden Protector), LE Helmed Horror are not obvious, but perhaps some plays them because he didn't checked threads like this.
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Proud Owner of the "Aura of cursed dice" | |
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