Vrecknidj
Warlord
10493 Posts
    
United States
 | | 07/18/2006 8:42 AM |
| So, all the rage these days is the GAS band. Helmed Horrors are a nice counter, but they're not particularly tough against the rest of the field. Chraals are a nice counter too, but they're not so tough against the rest of the field either.
There aren't any undead titans that can handle four auto-crit attacks from Gith Monks, even if they are immune to crits, especially since Countersong isn't prevalent in Evil bands (available, yes, prevalent, no).
The Marut falls to four successive auto-crits from the Gith Monks, unless there's a Bodyguard basing the Marut, and even then, the Bodyguard has to get lucky with those Stun checks or the Marut is in trouble.
I was thinking that having access to a lot of elemental damage against Giths would be good, but then the band would be weak against the Couatl bands that are bound to also show up.
Anyone else having this problem?
Dave | |
Knowledge Arcana editor issues 5-9, Phoenix Lore Magazine editor, assistant editor for Rite Publishing;
My Trade Thread and My Reference Thread; Winner of WBC IV, IX and XIII; Rule #0: bshugg is always right! | |
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Thirty
Skirmisher
23 Posts
| | 07/18/2006 9:07 AM |
| | Since when can Constructs be hit with a criticle? I thought they were immune. | |
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nycfarmkid
Underboss
1210 Posts
Wadsworth, OH
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Faragdar the Wise
Commander
3547 Posts
Albuquerque, NM, USA
| | 07/18/2006 9:19 AM |
| | GAS is led by a Young Master. With his commander effect, the Gith Monks can use unavoidable strike and stunning attack to do 20 damage per strike to a construct. So, it's not really an "auto-crit", just an auto hit. | |
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Champion of Myopic Half-Orcs
Winner, WBC X | |
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Hero of Skirmish
doubtofbuddha
Commander
3371 Posts
| | 07/18/2006 9:58 AM |
| Marut Couatl Bodyguard with the Standard Bearer is a very, very bad match-up for Githzerai Monks unless you get lucky and get to face it on the Teleport Temple. In which case it is merely an unfavorable match-up.
I have been able to beat it before but it required a mistake on my opponent's part on the Teleport Temple that entailed some risk on my part (exposing the Young Master to a Marut double move + Couatl snake swiftness attack.)
Most other times in the MCB vs. Gith Monk match-up, the Gith Monks have lost. | |
I am not gone. | |
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nycfarmkid
Underboss
1210 Posts
Wadsworth, OH
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elder_basilisk
Sergeant
410 Posts
| | 07/18/2006 10:54 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by nycfarmkid
Wasn't there some reason though why the MCB bands wouldn't fair well on the championship maps and that the lower appearance of MCB would bring the monks to the top? I can't seem to find it.
I think current speculation is that the forest cliff lair map and teleport temple map are both bad maps for MCB. They lack good choke points, can spread the bands out (it will take the marut a long time to get anywhere if you start on the forest side for instance), and offer opposing bands a chance to get around the marut and whoop on the band's soft underbelly. | |
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BoroKnight
Skirmisher
11 Posts
| | 07/18/2006 11:04 AM |
| But with such open maps - it would be hard to protect the Standard bearer for long. None of the tourney maps offer choke points that allow the MCB team to get VP's and remain protected.
But Doubt does have a point that it's an unfavorable to even matchup, because the Bodyguard can nullify at least one of the 4 Unavoidable Strikes that it takes to auto-kill the Marut(he could soak up more if he makes his stun saves and if he is healed for 10hp he can take 3 shots before he dies). While the Giths can still hit the Marut with the attack bonus from the YM (at +13 - +15 with flank) they will be challenged to make thier morale saves or run off the board; the Teleport Temple and Drgaon Shrine maps both have exits that are disadvantageous to high spd figs that fail morale. | |
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Neon Knight
Sneak
96 Posts
| | 07/18/2006 12:20 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Thirty
Since when can Constructs be hit with a criticle? I thought they were immune.
Immune, yes. But a Nat 20 (or in the case of a Gith Monk AUTO CRIT) it is still hit. It just does not suffer any double damage.
A MArut or any other CRIT IMMUNE creature is still hit with a natural 19-20 while the attacker is on Blood Rock, or under the Commander effect of a Tiefling Captain or other effect that simulate the TC CE, or hit by any creature with Keen Critical. | |
Daniel the Neon Knight | |
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Gunthar
Commander
2938 Posts
| | 07/18/2006 1:53 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Vrecknidj
So, all the rage these days is the GAS band. Helmed Horrors are a nice counter, but they're not particularly tough against the rest of the field. Chraals are a nice counter too, but they're not so tough against the rest of the field either.
There aren't any undead titans that can handle four auto-crit attacks from Gith Monks, even if they are immune to crits, especially since Countersong isn't prevalent in Evil bands (available, yes, prevalent, no).
The Marut falls to four successive auto-crits from the Gith Monks, unless there's a Bodyguard basing the Marut, and even then, the Bodyguard has to get lucky with those Stun checks or the Marut is in trouble.
I was thinking that having access to a lot of elemental damage against Giths would be good, but then the band would be weak against the Couatl bands that are bound to also show up.
Anyone else having this problem?
Dave
You could say that. [)] I had an idea, but the saves kill it too often, I think. | |
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Vrecknidj
Warlord
10493 Posts
United States
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Hero of Skirmish
doubtofbuddha
Commander
3371 Posts
| | 07/18/2006 2:31 PM |
| Unless they are NOSTy..... [)]
Just kidding. I am bringing a standard band like most everyone else. [:P] | |
I am not gone. | |
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Gnolaum
Sergeant
855 Posts
| | 07/18/2006 4:01 PM |
| I'd rather bring a gun to a knife fight myself.
I'd look for things that deal 30 damage with respectable to hit bonuses...
Umm, that leaves Marut, Kord, and Cadaver Collector... Any others? | | | |
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Arizzar
Skirmisher
23 Posts
| | 07/18/2006 4:26 PM |
| Blood Ghost Berserkers led by Urthok the Vicious has a fairly competent +15 attack bonus and hits for 30 magic. Not bad for 37 points.
/Arizzar | |
Don't trust common sense... its not very common. | |
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Vrecknidj
Warlord
10493 Posts
United States
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Kithmaker
Commander
3926 Posts
| | 07/18/2006 10:49 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Vrecknidj
Giths also don't like Conceal. A pack of bloodthirsty, blurred Frenzied Berserkers could ruin a GAS band's day.
Could, assuming they manage to land a hit or two. | |
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Janos M.
Underboss
1015 Posts
Hamburg / GErmany
| | 07/19/2006 3:47 AM |
| that's why you include the devis and warchanter...
...nah just joking. Both are to fragile against Monks. | |
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Kilroy
Sneak
74 Posts
| | 07/19/2006 8:20 AM |
| | What about the Lich Necromancer? He is undead, has 45 points of autodamage himself, and can paralyze the monks at range or in melee (plus, he can control undead pesky Sacred Watchers). I don't know exactly which warband would be best to build around him, but it might be worth looking into. | |
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Vrecknidj
Warlord
10493 Posts
United States
| | 07/19/2006 8:27 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Kilroy
What about the Lich Necromancer? He is undead, has 45 points of autodamage himself, and can paralyze the monks at range or in melee (plus, he can control undead pesky Sacred Watchers). I don't know exactly which warband would be best to build around him, but it might be worth looking into.
Once upon a time, I'd have said that a Lich Necromancer with a Clay Golem bodyguard would be a wonderful thing. But, in the current meta, you're doomed if you face a band with multiple Helmed Horrors, and a Marut can still ruin your day. It's not too bad against Gith Monks, if you can avoid having the Lich getting based by the Monks.
Dave | |
Knowledge Arcana editor issues 5-9, Phoenix Lore Magazine editor, assistant editor for Rite Publishing;
My Trade Thread and My Reference Thread; Winner of WBC IV, IX and XIII; Rule #0: bshugg is always right! | |
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nedleeds
Warrior
240 Posts
| | 07/19/2006 8:50 AM |
| | Slaads are fine if you can roll morale saves. 2 x Death Slaad + Blue Slaad with Wardrummer on +4, and I still failed more then 1/2 my checks when I played them. I think Slaads would make a great spoiler band @ Nats, especially with somebody actually competent at this game piloting them :) | |
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Pauper
Sergeant
508 Posts
| | 07/19/2006 9:10 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Arizzar
Blood Ghost Berserkers led by Urthok the Vicious has a fairly competent +15 attack bonus and hits for 30 magic. Not bad for 37 points.
Blast!
(Throws Blood Ghost Berserkers and Urthok back into storage.)
Now where did I put those Thorns...
--
Pauper | |
Champion of the War Wizard of Cormyr | |
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Vrecknidj
Warlord
10493 Posts
United States
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Beer Baron
Sneak
106 Posts
| | 07/19/2006 10:24 AM |
| Red Wizard + Triple Efreeti! My Favorite! :D
Btw: Monks Vs Dual HGB - Monks > Dual HGB?
Havent Used Monks Vs Them Yet. I Can Only Assume Bad Matchup For HGB At The VERY Least.
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DaemonKain
Warrior
312 Posts
| | 07/19/2006 10:38 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by doubtofbuddha
Marut Couatl Bodyguard with the Standard Bearer is a very, very bad match-up for Githzerai Monks unless you get lucky and get to face it on the Teleport Temple. In which case it is merely an unfavorable match-up.
I have been able to beat it before but it required a mistake on my opponent's part on the Teleport Temple that entailed some risk on my part (exposing the Young Master to a Marut double move + Couatl snake swiftness attack.)
Most other times in the MCB vs. Gith Monk match-up, the Gith Monks have lost.
As a fellow Monk player, I've got to agree with this... This is a tough matchup. Standard Bearers + Bodyguard = bad day for Monks. For that reason, and the fact that Monks are hard to pick up and get good with fast, I don't think we'll see many Monk bands. | |
-DaemonKain
Proud Mascot of Team Amish | |
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Pegasus Knight
Sergeant
896 Posts
| | 07/19/2006 2:33 PM |
| | It's not unreasonable to expect a Frenzied Berserker to hit AC 25 once, if you get a flank going. And chances are, all you're going to need is one hit. | |
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Vrecknidj
Warlord
10493 Posts
United States
| | 07/19/2006 7:33 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Pegasus Knight
It's not unreasonable to expect a Frenzied Berserker to hit AC 25 once, if you get a flank going. And chances are, all you're going to need is one hit.
Yep, at +14, you need an 11. That's a 50% chance, and, that means, you have a 50% chance of forcing a morale save. Not only that, you have a 5% chance of utterly destroying the Gith (a critical means swift death).
Dave | |
Knowledge Arcana editor issues 5-9, Phoenix Lore Magazine editor, assistant editor for Rite Publishing;
My Trade Thread and My Reference Thread; Winner of WBC IV, IX and XIII; Rule #0: bshugg is always right! | |
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yugichat
Skirmisher
41 Posts
| | 07/20/2006 1:05 PM |
| The Marut falls to four successive auto-crits from the Gith Monks, unless there's a Bodyguard basing the Marut, and even then, the Bodyguard has to get lucky with those Stun checks or the Marut is in trouble.
My question is about stun and constructs. Both the bodyguard and marut are immune to stun and critical damage. So what is your concern about stun checks. | |
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Gnolaum
Sergeant
855 Posts
| | 07/20/2006 1:22 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by yugichat
The Marut falls to four successive auto-crits from the Gith Monks, unless there's a Bodyguard basing the Marut, and even then, the Bodyguard has to get lucky with those Stun checks or the Marut is in trouble.
My question is about stun and constructs. Both the bodyguard and marut are immune to stun and critical damage. So what is your concern about stun checks.
The bodygaurd is a living construct, and as such is not immune to stun. | | | |
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Neratos
Sneak
67 Posts
| | 07/20/2006 1:25 PM |
| Bodygaurds are WF so they are not immune to crits or stuns. The Marut is immune to crits, and i am pretty sure stuns.
My friends and i where discussing this problem, and i personally thing a CC can give the monks a run for their money. It can wistand their dmg, and is almost garunteed to hit and force a morale save on any monk that comes with in reach. CC + Shuluth and good movement and placement strats could lead to monks downfall. | |
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Gunthar
Commander
2938 Posts
| | 07/20/2006 1:41 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Neratos
Bodygaurds are WF so they are not immune to crits or stuns. The Marut is immune to crits, and i am pretty sure stuns.
My friends and i where discussing this problem, and i personally thing a CC can give the monks a run for their money. It can wistand their dmg, and is almost garunteed to hit and force a morale save on any monk that comes with in reach. CC + Shuluth and good movement and placement strats could lead to monks downfall.
The problem is the monks speed. They can un around the Cad Collector and as long as they don't bunch them, you're only going to get to a monk or two and maybe som fodder. If they can kill off everything else, you're in trouble. | |
Champion of Prit(Wemic vindication is here)
Minneapolis/St. Paul area
Completed trades: Aspect of Cheese (Love that moniker), Tickparasite, Elderthing, Lalato, Sodj, Grimoire, SmilinIrish, Zeb, RWarehall,Link, wikkawikkawa, Auramancer, Rommers, HK, Ivid5,Qillan_dvra, Puggins, Arcabius, Ironfist Boulderbender, Robby, Corim Danex, monster_slayer, DNDJUNKIE, Kelemvor, Krush, ckissee, Massawyrm, hockey fan, Wish, Uninspiring Lieutenant, vtloon x2, Vrecknidj, Darthpoke, WakeXX, AnarionZell, lycusmike, papabear5 and umpteen local trades with board members
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Gnolaum
Sergeant
855 Posts
| | 07/20/2006 1:44 PM |
| The initial onslaught will deal 80 damage to the cadaver collector (4x(10+10 magic)). The CC is immune to critical hits and stuns but still subject to the increased damage from the young master.
The CC will have almost no opportunity to avoid this due to speed differentials. And the githerzai monks only need 2 more hits (made at +13) to take it out.
If LE had access to Countersong the CC might be a viable counter, but as it stands monks eat this construct for lunch. | | | |
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Vrecknidj
Warlord
10493 Posts
United States
| | 07/20/2006 3:16 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Gnolaum
The initial onslaught will deal 80 damage to the cadaver collector (4x(10+10 magic)). The CC is immune to critical hits and stuns but still subject to the increased damage from the young master.
The CC will have almost no opportunity to avoid this due to speed differentials. And the githerzai monks only need 2 more hits (made at +13) to take it out.
If LE had access to Countersong the CC might be a viable counter, but as it stands monks eat this construct for lunch.
Exactly. And, three monks cost roughly as much as the Cadaver Collector, so, all other things being equal, if two of the Monks are routed or die by the time the Cadaver Collector dies, the LG player is in good shape, and even if three Monks rout or die, the LG player is on fair ground.
Dave | |
Knowledge Arcana editor issues 5-9, Phoenix Lore Magazine editor, assistant editor for Rite Publishing;
My Trade Thread and My Reference Thread; Winner of WBC IV, IX and XIII; Rule #0: bshugg is always right! | |
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orcmonk220
Underboss
1608 Posts
| | 07/20/2006 3:29 PM |
| | Aspect of Lolth? May fall slightly faster than the rest, but you have some decent damage against LG, and it seems to be what everyone fears... | |
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nycfarmkid
Underboss
1210 Posts
Wadsworth, OH
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Vrecknidj
Warlord
10493 Posts
United States
| | 07/20/2006 5:40 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by nycfarmkid
I'd personally really like to make the Clay Golem work as a a foil to the Gith monks, but I just cant see being able to keep it under command; as well as not being abused by the speed difference.
Yep, a Clay Golem with a War Chanter means that the Gith Monks are really not able to do all that much right away. But, if GAS band can probably play keep-away and get victory area points every round. In that case, the CG band has to have something fairly dramatic and useful for the other 114 points.
Dave | |
Knowledge Arcana editor issues 5-9, Phoenix Lore Magazine editor, assistant editor for Rite Publishing;
My Trade Thread and My Reference Thread; Winner of WBC IV, IX and XIII; Rule #0: bshugg is always right! | |
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nycfarmkid
Underboss
1210 Posts
Wadsworth, OH
| | 07/20/2006 6:26 PM |
| Wouldn't there be a big concern over keeping the commander alive? That would be my biggest fear while running the Clay Golem. Once you lose the commander you have a what 75% chance that the clay doesn't benefit you at all? Multiple commanders seem to be needed, however there aren't many bands that can run multiple commanders and be able to handle the rest of the field offensively. Multiple commanders just aren't cost effective enough.
The Brass Samurai is close. That commander can do some decent melee damage. Also Ryld can do some melee work, however they also fall too quickly if threatened. | |
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Knight of the
Round Table
Thenameless
Warlord
12507 Posts
The Fortress of Solitude
| | 07/20/2006 6:51 PM |
| | Yes, the game is very rock/paper/scissorsy right now, but that's still better than having all of the good players show up with variations of the same core warband. | |
Over 270 successful online DDM trades. | |
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nycfarmkid
Underboss
1210 Posts
Wadsworth, OH
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Vrecknidj
Warlord
10493 Posts
United States
| | 07/20/2006 9:55 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by nycfarmkid
quote:
Originally posted by Thenameless
Yes, the game is very rock/paper/scissorsy right now, but that's still better than having all of the good players show up with variations of the same core warband.
So are you saying it wouldn't necessarily be a grave mistake to run a band that would lose a great deal of effectiveness if the commander were killed? (IE: Clay Golem bands)
Pardon my jumping in between here, but I think he was referring to a different point.
I agree about the Clay Golem's weakness, and you have to either keep the commander alive or have more than one--that's true. And, in CG, you don't have a lot of low-cost, viable alternatives for this.
Dave | |
Knowledge Arcana editor issues 5-9, Phoenix Lore Magazine editor, assistant editor for Rite Publishing;
My Trade Thread and My Reference Thread; Winner of WBC IV, IX and XIII; Rule #0: bshugg is always right! | |
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nycfarmkid
Underboss
1210 Posts
Wadsworth, OH
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