BunnyPuncher
Sneak
171 Posts
    
 | | 07/28/2006 12:53 PM |
| Odd that a product expansion devoted to Epic play could result in less diversity, but it appears to be the case.
We have been playing Epic tournies every 2 weeks since WoTDQ came out, and we used to play epic once per month before that.
What is bothering me is that there seems to be no competitive diversity like there used to be in Epic. Every band that wants even a remote chance to win has to include an AoT, AoB, or tubby dwarf melee machine in their warband. Is the only hope to counter these titan builds mordie's sword?
So far (including the pre-release) all I've seen do well in Epic is the dragon aspects and Tordek. What is everybody else witnessing these days? | |
Champion of the Huge Green Dragon *cough* Cyan *cough* Bloodbane *cough* | |
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Tgt
Sergeant
574 Posts
| | 07/28/2006 2:32 PM |
| Over here it seems bad. It´s all about the Good factions; with the exception of Tiamat or Giant bands.
Buff the Titan seems the most powerful build - Tordek or Bahamut with +3 AC, +3 save. They have everything - AC, Save, Damage, Attack and Lvl (and speed for AoB).Or CG with multi-epics they´re cheap, have plenty of HP and damage - kinda like old CE) or Archmages. LE epics don´t have HP to hold it´s own; CE ones have high damage or average attack - choose one. | |
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Aesnath
Underboss
1358 Posts
Augusta, GA
| | 07/28/2006 4:28 PM |
| | I have to say that WoDQ may have hurt the epic scene more than help it, well for us anyway. The aspects are TOO aggressively costed, in general. You can make bands to beat the aspects, but you really have to work at it, while the Aspect band needs only a little support for it's critter. Aspect bands aren't even fun to build--and that's criminal from my perspective. Tordek isn't as bad in my perception, sure lots of people are playing him, but he isn't too much nastier than Kord or Storm Giant, only a little cheaper. | |
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Ridureyu
Underboss
1622 Posts
| | 07/28/2006 4:37 PM |
| | So if the figures are not well-costed, it's bad for epic. if the figures are well-costed... it's bad for epic. | |
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BunnyPuncher
Sneak
171 Posts
| | 07/28/2006 5:04 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Ridureyu
So if the figures are not well-costed, it's bad for epic. if the figures are well-costed... it's bad for epic.
No this is me wondering if the rest of the world's Epic tournies look like they do in Halifax, NS, Canada. And if people are able to compete with those aspect sucka's without using multiple archmages/Elm, another aspect or Tordek. | |
Champion of the Huge Green Dragon *cough* Cyan *cough* Bloodbane *cough* | |
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warchanter
Sergeant
394 Posts
Italy
| | 07/28/2006 9:12 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by BunnyPuncher
So far (including the pre-release) all I've seen do well in Epic is the dragon aspects and Tordek. What is everybody else witnessing these days?
I went quite well with this band:
Epic Slaughterstone eviscerator
Warforged titan
Artificer
Warforged commander
Warforged bodyguard
Warforged scout
Iron Golem (non epic version, used mainly as a shield against nasty spell like Mordy's swords) | |
Nexxstalker on WoTC Boards | |
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delguidance
Sergeant
394 Posts
| | 07/29/2006 1:25 AM |
| Pittsburgh's had some variety. At the last epic tournament every faction was represented with a LG majority. From what I can remember
1 Tordek band - Couatl & stuff to buff Tordek
1 Bahamut band - With mounted paladin, but Last minute
1 2 Blue Barnies, Dragon Totem Dude, Crow Shaman, Unicorn, Aramil, and freakin dromite wilder. This beat Bahamut because Bahamut made dumb victory point, and Melee Reach mistakes
1 Beholder, King Snurre, Hunched Giant, Ogre Ravager, Wolf, & something else that did okay.
1 Epic Death Slaad, Blue Slaad, regular Balor, Huge Fire elemental which was mine and sucked. Stupid huge fire elemental. And Blue Slaad has no place in epic. | |
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stonefro2000
Sergeant
465 Posts
| | 07/29/2006 3:10 AM |
| | in our last three sealed games, who ever pulled the Tiamat was the night. | |
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Tripster
Skirmisher
11 Posts
| | 07/29/2006 3:53 AM |
| | Our last 500 point tourney had about 8 players. We had one guy playing a Doorstep Aspect of Bahamut warband. One playing a duel Griffon Calvary epic warband with 2 Bonded Fire Summoners. A Ballista, Marut, Coutl, Cleric of order with Tordek warband. My warband was a Purple worm, Blue spawn godslayer, Mephling Pyromancer with 2 crow shamans and a dragon totem hero to bring bluespawn in CG. The duel Griffon calvary was dirty turn 2 my purple worm was charged cause I didnt see it and took 100, failed morale and the next round got routed off the bored. And then even so it was neck and neck to the bitter end had I not had failed both saves with the dumb worm I woulda rocked that game. Tordek warband I mentioned ate my for breakfast. I tore up the aspect of Bahamut doorstep warband and he won all his initiatives. I was able to poison his Bahamut with the worms dirty poison nerfing his damage output badly. My loss to the Griffon Calvary warband cost me from getting into the final round. Griffon Calvary was able to beat Tordek band first time but not in the finals. So tordek ruled the day. I am pretty annoyed with all the things Lawful Good gets these days. It really doesnt have much in the way of a weakness anymore. | |
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Knight of the
Round Table
Thenameless
Warlord
12507 Posts
The Fortress of Solitude
| | 07/30/2006 8:25 PM |
| | What gets me, is that most people say that the Eldritch Giant sucks, but when I compare the Eldritch Giant to the Storm Giant, it's actually not bad. The Storm is way better against smaller opponents, but if these two were to face off against each other, the EG would actually have a chance, and might even have the upper hand. | |
Over 270 successful online DDM trades. | |
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SYB
Warrior
328 Posts
| | 07/30/2006 8:36 PM |
| I was thinking about this earlier. I think Epic games would be better off if they were played using Quickstrike + Assault. It would make titan players have to be a little more careful.
-SYB | |
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Custom Title
WakeXX
Warlord
10152 Posts
Edinboro PA
| | 07/30/2006 8:43 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Thenameless
What gets me, is that most people say that the Eldritch Giant sucks, but when I compare the Eldritch Giant to the Storm Giant, it's actually not bad. The Storm is way better against smaller opponents, but if these two were to face off against each other, the EG would actually have a chance, and might even have the upper hand.
I think the Eldritch Giant would be decent if he wasn't arrogant,even using Tyrannical morale with a BGoN the Eldritch still fails alot,especially with all the Aspects running around with Aura of Fear and such. | | | |
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Knight of the
Round Table
Thenameless
Warlord
12507 Posts
The Fortress of Solitude
| | 07/30/2006 8:56 PM |
| | The Storm Giant, with its save 10, has the same problem. It benefits from the commander rating, but no one in CG has tyrannical morale - so it's about a tie. | |
Over 270 successful online DDM trades. | |
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Aesnath
Underboss
1358 Posts
Augusta, GA
| | 07/30/2006 10:52 PM |
| I kinda liked where epic was going before WoDQ.quote:
So if the figures are not well-costed, it's bad for epic. if the figures are well-costed... it's bad for epic.
Actually I feel like the aspects were a little undercosted rather than well-costed. 318 points for a commander 8, with F12, three attacks that sum up to 75, extra damage vs. dragons, Save 15, and two breath weapons? C'mon that is a touch excessive, right?
I actually think that AoT is a little closer to the mark, but she functions a bit like a hoser to the older Save=10 crowd, and sort of forces titan use. | |
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Graduate school is swollowing my soul!!!!
Champion of the Raumathari Battlemage!
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Thaine
Sneak
67 Posts
| | 07/31/2006 4:47 AM |
| around the bloomington IN arear we've only had two epic tourneys since the WotDQ release: a prerelease and a normal event. we've been playing standard to get people ready for gencon.
from what we've seen, you don't HAVE to play an epic to win, but they do well. NO ONE has played tiamat in constructed, though there were several bahamut bands, mostly with war weaver for a hop and turn one breath weapon which is so cheesey i'm not gonna get itno it.
at the prerelease, the there were two bahamut bands and two tiamat bands, and only one aspect band made it to the top eight, and it was tiamat. she's such a house in sealed, but i'm shaky about using her in constructed. her HP drops quick with only a 23 AC.
but is the aura of fear really that much worse than a wardrummer? for aura to take affect you have to be based, while wardrummer just has to be on the field.
tordek is another issue. in my opinion, tordek beats far too hard for what he's worth. haven't seen him play against tiamat yet, and with six attacks that could end up making a difference.
the save=10 on the old figs just hurts them so much. its understandable in the old environment, but anymore save=10 is a major liability. | |
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Lachlarlan_the_Mad
Sergeant
470 Posts
| | 07/31/2006 10:24 AM |
| The very first epic tourney we ever held had 8 people, 4 of them had an AoB.
I played a dual Epic Gryphon Cavalry band and was 10 hp from finishing off AoB. I won init, then proceeded to roll poorly. | |
Champion of the Mimic; Knight of the Caryatid Column
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Korvax
Warrior
263 Posts
| | 07/31/2006 10:33 AM |
| in the first local Epic tourney, the winning band looked something like this:
sorcerer on black dragon x2
lich necro
orc wardrummer
cursed spirit
orc warrior x2
it could add up to a -11 on morale saves [:0]
it faced epic Tordek (and made him run), AoBahamut, and dual epic Eviscerators (in a very tight game).
Unfortunately, I couldn't make it there in time to play, but I was going to bring:
Purple Worm
Brass Samurai
Epic Griffon Cavalry
Inspiring Marshal
Satyr
Elf Pyro
Mialee
Wild-elf Raider
I'm curious to see how well it could've done, but that will have to be for some other time... | |
Champion of the Phoenix!
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Roadkill
Skirmisher
5 Posts
| | 07/31/2006 2:38 PM |
| In our recent Epic Tournament in Okotoks I went 5-0 with this band.
Nightstalker
Orc Druid X2
Cursed Spirit X2
Taer
Orc Wardrummer
Hyena
With the cursed spirit and Taer you can effectively bump the DC on the finger of death up to DC25. I will admit I got very lucky in my matches but I managed to finger of death
Epic Warduke
Epic mounted Cavalry
Bahamut!
Epic Tordek
Epic Tordek
I expect to see more people using the Purple Worm and the Epic mounted Cavalry in the future. There were also people talking about using the Eldritch Giant so we will see what else comes up.
I have never seen the Aspect of Tiamat do well in Epic as she is to slow and the opponent ends up killing the fodder and running away. | |
"It's all in the reflexes"
Jack Burton | |
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rhane
Underboss
1412 Posts
| | 07/31/2006 4:23 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Roadkill
In our recent Epic Tournament in Okotoks I went 5-0 with this band.
Nightstalker
Orc Druid X2
Cursed Spirit X2
Taer
Orc Wardrummer
Hyena
Wow! Nicely done! I actually considered busting out the old Nightwalker again. However, when I considered that everyone and their brother has Spell Resistance, I changed my mind. The Nightwalker is absolutely dependent on using its spells effectively in order to win. With no Spell Penetration, I just wasn't comfortable with the fact that 50% of my spells would be wasted. You must have rolled well, or run across the few big baddies that don't have SR.
Once again, Congrats...
Now to the general question...while I agree that post-WoDQ there aren't many viable Epic bands, I'd ask how many there were before WoDQ. The variations that I saw win on a repeatable basis were limited to only a few...predominately:
Beholder Swarm
Epic Kord in either CG or LG
Archmages (or Mordy+Archmages)
Stormcrow
I also saw Balor/Huge Red Dragon do okay a time or two. After WoDQ, some of the above go are less effective, and Bahamut, Tiamat, and Tordek come to the forfront. So, I think it shifted, but I don't see that it got "worse". | |
Rhane
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md3
Sergeant
704 Posts
| | 07/31/2006 4:32 PM |
| RIght now I think that Epic Dragons rule the day, but I have created quite a few warbands to counter them. It will be a while, but I figure that eventually it will be a bad move to run the 2 Aspect dragons when everyone learns to defeat them. Until that day... I might just be running the Epic Dragons myself.
The biggest problem is that the Aspect Dragons dish out so much damage per round that most figures can't last. Even other titans like Aspect of Kord can get hung up fighting the Dragons fodder while the Dragons take those breath weapons and dish out damage from a safe distance. I was unhappy to lose to a Bahumut Chicken the other day when I got him down to 10 hp on the teleport temple and he flew away just before the buzzer. My 3BBB band suprising well with Reach 3.
I think people will start to figure out what combinations can take out the aspects, it just takes time and practice.
If it becomes a problem, everyone should start running the Aspect Dragons. That way people will start to think twice about bringing something that can end up in a mirror match. | |
"You are not the sum of your miniatures."
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hardinjmm
Sergeant
573 Posts
Madison, WI
| | 07/31/2006 5:26 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by md3
If it becomes a problem, everyone should start running the Aspect Dragons. That way people will start to think twice about bringing something that can end up in a mirror match.
That's so crazy, it might even work! [:p] | | | |
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iluvxtina
Underboss
1501 Posts
Spain
| | 07/31/2006 6:18 PM |
| | The only warbands which could defeat a tiamat or bahamut warband in epic play are tordek or epic kord warbands with couatl,the only.Many people say that bluespawn can defeat them,but that is not true (at least with my experience).I know waht are you talking about:you,re sad and angry with the game desingners for making only two or three creatures competitve and useless the others.Yes...It,s sad,but it,s the truth:if you want to win,you have to use tiamat or bahamut. | |
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Jerry_Damage01
Sneak
146 Posts
| | 07/31/2006 6:21 PM |
| | Rather than make alot of bands less viable, what WODQ has done is make an Epic Metagame. There wasn't much of a metagame before WODQ, basically kind of like a crapshoot. Sure there were bands that did well, but there wasn't an actual metagame there. Now, what we're seeing is the basis of the metagame for Epic. | |
Champion of the Aspect of Damage
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Lachlarlan_the_Mad
Sergeant
470 Posts
| | 08/01/2006 9:51 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by iluvxtina
The only warbands which could defeat a tiamat or bahamut warband in epic play are tordek or epic kord warbands with couatl,the only.Many people say that bluespawn can defeat them,but that is not true (at least with my experience).I know waht are you talking about:you,re sad and angry with the game desingners for making only two or three creatures competitve and useless the others.Yes...It,s sad,but it,s the truth:if you want to win,you have to use tiamat or bahamut.
This is a completely untrue statement.
I had an AoB with conceal 6 down to 10 hp in my last match against one. I won initiative, then proceeded to roll poorly with my final attacks.
I was using Dual Epic Gryphons.
In fact, if I hadn't conceeded after missing all my attacks (he would have finished off my last gryphon that turn) I would have killed his AoB with 10 auto acid damage from my Wand Expert. | |
Champion of the Mimic; Knight of the Caryatid Column
Called Shots: Unhallowed - Tomb Mote
Vindicated Called Shots: Blood Wars - Solar
Aberrations 60/60, Deathknell 60/60, Angelfire 60/60, Underdark 60/60, Wardrums 60/60, WotDQ 60/60 | |
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Orion72
Underboss
1917 Posts
| | 08/01/2006 11:11 AM |
| We had an Epic tourney last night. I came in first with a Bahamut build, beating two Tordeks and an LG Kord band. One of the Tordek builds was tough, but AoB ran roughshod over the other two. I'd say "ugly" right now, and likely to get even uglier.
Other bands included 2 other Bahamuts, a Tiamat, a CG Kord/Rikka, and two Elminster/AM bands. I think a Purple Worm/Kord build could have done well, but would have struggled against Bahamut. | | | |
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Drago F
Sneak
88 Posts
| | 08/01/2006 11:43 AM |
| I dont know if this gives hope, but I won a tourney on Sunday playing against AoT twice, AoB and Lord Soth/Beholder/Iron Golem bands.
I was playing:
Drizzt
Epic Guen
Epic Rikka
Elf Pyro
Pegasus
Inspiring Marshall
Aramil
Xen'Drik Champion
Against the Aspects, I just mopped up their support and ensure I kept the VP areas producing for me and not for them. Surprisingly Guen matched up against AoT very well since Conceal 11 was very useful and AoT was reluctant to use breath weapons against Guen only.
The hardest match up was against Bahamut, but I was fortunate to have Drizzt survive on 5 HP at the end of the game. The key against titan bands that dont have ranged attacks is to move faster, but against AoB it was harder so I had to spread out and use the whole map.
There is hope for non-titan bands | |
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Aesnath
Underboss
1358 Posts
Augusta, GA
| | 08/01/2006 12:31 PM |
| It's not that the epic aspects are unbeatable, its just that they are maybe a bit too reliable for cost. The worst warband in the world can beat the best one....with the right dice rolls.
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**Note: Unless otherwise stated all my minis are unbagged**
My reference thread is at: http://www.maxminis.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=12765
Graduate school is swollowing my soul!!!!
Champion of the Raumathari Battlemage!
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Aries
Warrior
284 Posts
| | 08/03/2006 9:03 AM |
| | How can someone bring in 2 Tordeks when he's unique? | |
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Lachlarlan_the_Mad
Sergeant
470 Posts
| | 08/03/2006 9:49 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Aries
How can someone bring in 2 Tordeks when he's unique?
You can't. He saying he fought two different opponents, both of which had Tordek in their bands. | |
Champion of the Mimic; Knight of the Caryatid Column
Called Shots: Unhallowed - Tomb Mote
Vindicated Called Shots: Blood Wars - Solar
Aberrations 60/60, Deathknell 60/60, Angelfire 60/60, Underdark 60/60, Wardrums 60/60, WotDQ 60/60 | |
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jgsugden
Commander
4320 Posts
Walnut Creek, CA
| | 08/03/2006 12:35 PM |
| Although Tiamat and Bahamut are overpowered in limited, they are fine in constructed. You can beat them with a good band. The difference with them is that they form the majority of a good band. Anyone can build a band out of them and be guaranteed to have at least 70 - 75% of their warband be efficient pieces.
There are dozens of good epic bands. The recent addition of dozens of epic figures have really popped open the possibilities in warband construction. I have dozens of ideas for warbands that I want to try out... and I think a large number of them have potential to be real contenders.
As people slowly warm up to Epic, they'll begin to see the possibilities, and we'll begin to see more epic discussion and play. I expect that this will happen when the limited championship ends and people begin to focus on the epic qualifiers/championship. | |
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Orion72
Underboss
1917 Posts
| | 08/03/2006 1:02 PM |
| As a tangent note on Epic play: I just asked Guy on the WotC boards about the Purple Worm.
Turns out that when the Purple Worm gains Whirlwind from the Brass Samurai, it is allowed to choose which of its two attacks it makes on each separate enemy. That means it can Burrow from somewhere safe 6 squares away, pop up in the middle of enemies, Swallow the Medium and smaller ones, and Poison the Large and larger ones, all in one activation. If it does this at the end of a round and wins initiative, it can Swallow/Poison anything that made its save first time around, then Burrow away again without provoking AoOs.
Something to consider. [:D] | | | |
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Kissmykiester
Sergeant
526 Posts
| | 08/03/2006 1:28 PM |
| Recently organized an Epic Sealed Tournament in my neck of the woods. 16 players showed up.
The top three warbands included a Tordek, AoB and AoT. Make your own conclusions.
There were if I recall only 1 or 2 Tordek pulled. 1 or 2 Bahamut pulled. About 5 Tiamats pulled. 3 Godslayers (comments I've gotten from players were that it was generally useless) 1 E.Giant. 1 Blackguard on Nightmare. 1 or 2 fire elemental. Maybe 1 purple worm And a bunch of Displacer Beast lords. Oh, and 1 Sorcerer on Dragon.
After the tournament, I came to the conclusion that the Displacer beast lord, with it's conceal 11 is a pain. Especially after it's been magic weapon. | |
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galerians
Warrior
182 Posts
| | 08/04/2006 2:35 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Orion72
As a tangent note on Epic play: I just asked Guy on the WotC boards about the Purple Worm.
Turns out that when the Purple Worm gains Whirlwind from the Brass Samurai, it is allowed to choose which of its two attacks it makes on each separate enemy. That means it can Burrow from somewhere safe 6 squares away, pop up in the middle of enemies, Swallow the Medium and smaller ones, and Poison the Large and larger ones, all in one activation. If it does this at the end of a round and wins initiative, it can Swallow/Poison anything that made its save first time around, then Burrow away again without provoking AoOs.
Something to consider. [:D]
i dont understand. if u burrow away while based u will draw Aoo's unless im missing something. sure you've always been able to pick which attack u use first if u want but i cant use both attacks and burrow on the same turn. again unless im missing something. | |
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Thaine
Sneak
67 Posts
| | 08/04/2006 2:46 AM |
| | can only move one square when using whirlwind. at least that's what is says on the brass sam's commander effect. any creature that moves no more than one square on its turn can make a separate attack against each enemy within it's melee reach. being able to make different attacks makes sense, but not sure what you were explaining with the burrowing 6 squares... | |
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Prince o the Raven Banner
Sergeant
606 Posts
| | 08/04/2006 4:27 AM |
| Ugly
This is due to what I percieve as the potential for stagnancy. As huge sets are (so far) far between, we will be stuck looking at this last batch of huges. For my experience, the Aspects, the Worm and Barney are gonna be the cornerstones of Epic play for at least the next year. That is gonna get old.
I do not feel that the Aspects are unbeatable. They are however too well costed. Bahamut has the speed necesary to play point denial to its ultimate evolution ( I am already seeing this). Tiamat is less of an issue but is still far to able to wipe out a distributed hitter/Quad build. This forces Epic into a Titan build static meta.
The next set will tell. The GoL huges were weak, the design team will now have the task of power stabilization. It seems to me it took about 2 years to stabilize the 200 point format. This will be a much more difficult task if we are limited to a paltry 24 epics in the next year. Especially since a trio of figures has set the bar so high.
The losers are the old huges. Only the Formorian will see much life in the future, he is cheap enough too hold his own in a multi beater band. The once great Storm Giant is lacking at his exorbitant cost. The Nightwalker has been dethroned due too SR becoming as common as DR in Epic. Of course this was an issue prior to WotDQ, where many an Epic band was devoid of huge components.
Of course, some of this is due to the "New Hotness" of the Aspects. Once the huges are out and about for awhile perhaps we will see the experimental type of builds that were present before.
Perhaps as an idealist I liked the "crapshoot" that was Epic before.
Hopefully it is to soon to be worried about the state of the Epic scene. Let's commiserate after Bloodwar. | |
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Jesster
Sneak
94 Posts
| | 08/04/2006 4:35 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by galerians
i dont understand. if u burrow away while based u will draw Aoo's unless im missing something.
You never provoke AOO's when burrowing (not even in the first square).
-=The Jesster: Gatchaba Goose=- | |
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