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Driedupheart
Skirmisher
7 Posts
    
 | | 08/02/2006 11:23 PM |
| So I'm sitting here, trying to think "what warband could I make, that would disrupt current tier 1 warbands, without using a tier 1 warband." All I can keep coming across is the same line of logic. Marut/Kord+Couatl bands rely on the Couatl's use of snakes swiftness and the high damage of the figure combined with a large amount of fodder and tech. SWarm is all about exactly what it's name implies, using incorporeal undeads. GAS's effectiveness is in speed and commander affects.
All that said, the more obvious solution finds it's home in LG(the overly powerful/broken faction that haunts all d&d minis). The best I can come up with is this.
Arcane Ballista x2 96
Cleric of Lathander 27
War Weaver 33
Village Priest 21
Arcanix Guard 9
Standard Bearer 10
Hill Dwarf Warrior 4
8 activations, 200 points.
The Arcane Ballista is the only thing with enough firepower and accuracy to bash through the tough defense of the somewhat overpowered Gith Monk, causing a morale check in one shot (given the use of fire/ice bolt). One of them would simply not be enough, with the threat of the speedy Giths being quick to base. A beater would be nice, but pricy or simply not enough(Marut style being too costly, Sacred Watchers being low on HP).
The Cleric of Lathander not only gives the band a little magic to play with, but a crucial special ability to deal with SWarm. Turn Undead 5 for three shots would take the sting out of the SWarm band long enough to make it past that nasty incorporeal check enough times.
The War Weaver grants his spell bonuses to Arcanix Guard, and along with the spell bonuses and commander effects from the Village Priest, makes him a cheap figure that is capable of causing at the very least a Marut band a headache. Also, his snakes swiftness and in general casting ability grants usability to the Ballistas. Sneakier still is the Dimension Hop spell. Luring the enemy in close, letting them take some swings at the Ballistas, and then Dimension Hopping away to turn around and fire on an unsuspecting figure or two.
Standard Bearer and Hill Dwarf Warrior are there for the same reasons anyone would include them. Countersong and fodder types.
Now, I don't know how well this would work, how crazy I am for thinking it would, but if anyone has a suggestion or two(or a mean spirited "thats gotta be the stupidest thing I've heard all day") it'd be greatly appreciated, seeing as how I'm at wits end with these Gith Monks. | |
"Squeeky wheel gets the kick!" - Minsc, Baldur's Gate. | |
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warty_nosed_goblin
Underboss
1384 Posts
| | 08/03/2006 1:07 AM |
| | I kinda like that band, perhaps a little less tech and a few more blockers? I'm going to go way out on a limb here and suggest an elemantal wall, as its fairly tough and can be used to really "wall up" a corridor. | |
Call me: W.N. Gobo!
originally posted by grim:
While he is clearly insane, he does have a point. | |
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doranur
Warrior
180 Posts
| | 08/03/2006 7:35 AM |
| so if it consistently beats tier 1 warbands, you've just added a new tier 1 warband, thats all. in about 3 weeks nobody will care for a couple months about tier 1 warbands till the next set comes out.
as to your actual band, here is my critique (your milage may vary, this is just my opinion);
dual ballista doesn't really add anything that single ballista and couatl doesn't already offer, and in many ways is worse. the cleric of lathander's commander effect does nothing for the band, so you're getting him simplty for the ability to be able to force 2 sacred watchers to make morale checks. the village priest really adds very little to the band , since you're getting almost no milage out of his commander effect and you already have another commander, the only practical use for him that i see is as another caster to fire the ballista. the standard bearer is a very good addition, but i don't see it making a significant difference, since the band can be beaten by all the tier 1 bands without thier commander effects.
assuming this is for normal map play, and not for the championships, here is my rebuilt version of your band that i think keeps the same core concept but increasing it's effeciency.
arcane ballista
couatl
war weaver
cleric of yondalla
sacred watcher x2
standardbearer
timberwolf
map broken demongate
round 1: war weaver magic weapons sacred watchers and timberwolf, ballista moves into position, couatl snakes swifnesses a shot if possible. cleric of yondalla moves up to provide extra caster for the ballista, standardbearer and watchers move into blocking position,
timberwolf moves to tile grabbing spot to motivate your opponent into moving towards you.
rounds 2 and 3: war weaver and couatl provide snakes swiftnesses for additional shots while your blockers fall.
round 4: war weaver d-hops the couatl and ballista which by now are probably based. more shots ensue.
by the 4th round you should have fired approximately 9 shots with the ballista, which hopefully did the critical amount of damage, because your band is quickly losing any capacity to do anything offensive, and peices are dropping like flies. if all 9 shots hit, and your oppnent has no elemental resists, you should have done ~335 points of damage which is more than most bands have.
this band is probably decent vs large based titan and multi hitter bands, bad vs. gas, swarm, and LE quads on medium bases with decent AC. Korducopia and belchers would probably have the hardest time against this band of the commonly discussed championship bands.
as to LG being overly powerful, i don't see it particularly. while LG did dominate the qualifier season, it did so primarily because many of the best players chose to play it. they did so because LG has significant obvious strengths, but they could easily have chosen other bands from other factions and still qualified. look at the montreal qualifier if you want to see how LG isn't broken if the meta becomes too abnormal. there are a significant number of reasons the marut band did particularly well, but i would attribute it in large part to bandwagoning. | |
-Doranur
join the revolution! down with round/turn fascism! viva la resistance! | |
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Vrecknidj
Warlord
10493 Posts
United States
| | 08/03/2006 7:45 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Driedupheart
So I'm sitting here, trying to think "what warband could I make, that would disrupt current tier 1 warbands, without using a tier 1 warband."
In a way, that defines a tier-1 band. Actually, let me re-state that. There are two kinds of bands that beat tier-1 bands, other tier-1 bands, and spoiler bands (kinda like the old Field Marshal and Spy from the Stratego game, I suppose).quote:
All I can keep coming across is the same line of logic. Marut/Kord+Couatl bands rely on the Couatl's use of snakes swiftness and the high damage of the figure combined with a large amount of fodder and tech. SWarm is all about exactly what it's name implies, using incorporeal undeads. GAS's effectiveness is in speed and commander affects.
All that said, the more obvious solution finds it's home in LG(the overly powerful/broken faction that haunts all d&d minis). The best I can come up with is this.
Arcane Ballista x2 96
Cleric of Lathander 27
War Weaver 33
Village Priest 21
Arcanix Guard 9
Standard Bearer 10
Hill Dwarf Warrior 4
8 activations, 200 points.
The Arcane Ballista is the only thing with enough firepower and accuracy to bash through the tough defense of the somewhat overpowered Gith Monk, causing a morale check in one shot (given the use of fire/ice bolt). One of them would simply not be enough, with the threat of the speedy Giths being quick to base. A beater would be nice, but pricy or simply not enough(Marut style being too costly, Sacred Watchers being low on HP).
The Cleric of Lathander not only gives the band a little magic to play with, but a crucial special ability to deal with SWarm. Turn Undead 5 for three shots would take the sting out of the SWarm band long enough to make it past that nasty incorporeal check enough times.
The War Weaver grants his spell bonuses to Arcanix Guard, and along with the spell bonuses and commander effects from the Village Priest, makes him a cheap figure that is capable of causing at the very least a Marut band a headache. Also, his snakes swiftness and in general casting ability grants usability to the Ballistas. Sneakier still is the Dimension Hop spell. Luring the enemy in close, letting them take some swings at the Ballistas, and then Dimension Hopping away to turn around and fire on an unsuspecting figure or two.
Standard Bearer and Hill Dwarf Warrior are there for the same reasons anyone would include them. Countersong and fodder types.
Now, I don't know how well this would work, how crazy I am for thinking it would, but if anyone has a suggestion or two(or a mean spirited "thats gotta be the stupidest thing I've heard all day") it'd be greatly appreciated, seeing as how I'm at wits end with these Gith Monks.
Well, it's not the stupidest thing I've heard all day (well, I've only been up for a few minutes--so, technically...). But, the Arcane Ballista has some problems as well. You've addressed some of them with having two, and with a War Weaver. But, having one and a Couatl is roughly the same as having two. And, it costs a little less, and it gives you some nice flexibility (the ability to deliver a 15-point auto-damage spell on a figure is sometimes much more valuable than risking rolling a 1 on an attack when using the snake's swiftness instead). Using Cleric of Lathander, as anti-SWarm tech is smart, if you expect to face it. I don't think that the Village Priest and Arcanix guard are the best use of the remaining points.
I might go with something like...
Arcane Ballista
Couatl
War Weaver
Cleric of Lathander
Sacred Watcher x2
Standardbearer
Jozan
With Jozan instead of the Hill Dwarf, you have an extra spellcaster--just in case. The Sacred Watchers, as you know, are a pain to deal with, and provide an excellent shield of the Arcane Ballista if you need them for that. They're also more reliable than the Arcanix Guard, and with two of them, you'll be able to engage your opponent's melee units earlier. As incorporeals, you can flexibly move them almost at will to either attack or defend key pieces (and, with the War Weaver, they'll both be doing magic damage).
Now that I think of it, this is a pretty good band....
Dave | |
Knowledge Arcana editor issues 5-9, Phoenix Lore Magazine editor, assistant editor for Rite Publishing;
My Trade Thread and My Reference Thread; Winner of WBC IV, IX and XIII; Rule #0: bshugg is always right! | |
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Orion72
Underboss
1917 Posts
| | 08/03/2006 8:34 AM |
| I've only used it once so far, and that was in an Epic band, but I think one of the best tech pieces out is the Spellscale. It nerfs swiftness, nerfs non-SR beaters, and gives your big guy Conceal 6.
A Kord, Moon Elf, Spellscale, multi-Crow band might have some interesting possiblities.
AoK 65
Moonie 49
Spellscale 31
Crow Shaman x2 52
Xeph
Against Korducopia, it can use Tactics from outside the range of Countersong and deliver enough damage to kill the bodyguard one round, Kord the next. Against SWarm, if Kord can move past the Watchers, he kills the Sword Archon in 3 hits (one phase with Tactics). Against Belchers - well, at least you don't have all your guys bunched up. Against GAS - nope, auto loss.
Ah well, I tried :) | | | |
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XAos
Underboss
2413 Posts
London
| | 08/03/2006 9:39 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Vrecknidj
In a way, that defines a tier-1 band. Actually, let me re-state that. There are two kinds of bands that beat tier-1 bands, other tier-1 bands, and spoiler bands (kinda like the old Field Marshal and Spy from the Stratego game, I suppose).
But a spoiler band that is strong against a wide range of tier-1 bands is itself a tier-1 warband.
And if the spoiler band is only strong against a few of the tier-1 warbands, why play it.?
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Vrecknidj
Warlord
10493 Posts
United States
| | 08/03/2006 9:54 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Orion72
Against Belchers - well, at least you don't have all your guys bunched up. Against GAS - nope, auto loss.
Ah well, I tried :)
Yep, those two would be my fears with this band. I do like the high-speed, high-powered band you've assembled though.
Dave | |
Knowledge Arcana editor issues 5-9, Phoenix Lore Magazine editor, assistant editor for Rite Publishing;
My Trade Thread and My Reference Thread; Winner of WBC IV, IX and XIII; Rule #0: bshugg is always right! | |
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Vrecknidj
Warlord
10493 Posts
United States
| | 08/03/2006 9:55 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by XAos
quote:
Originally posted by Vrecknidj
In a way, that defines a tier-1 band. Actually, let me re-state that. There are two kinds of bands that beat tier-1 bands, other tier-1 bands, and spoiler bands (kinda like the old Field Marshal and Spy from the Stratego game, I suppose).
But a spoiler band that is strong against a wide range of tier-1 bands is itself a tier-1 warband.
And if the spoiler band is only strong against a few of the tier-1 warbands, why play it.?
Exactly. I agree with you--spoiler bands can be fun, but they aren't going to win you (m)any tournaments.
Dave | |
Knowledge Arcana editor issues 5-9, Phoenix Lore Magazine editor, assistant editor for Rite Publishing;
My Trade Thread and My Reference Thread; Winner of WBC IV, IX and XIII; Rule #0: bshugg is always right! | |
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moebigsley
Sneak
158 Posts
| | 08/03/2006 9:59 AM |
| I think most of the people on this board have lost sight of the true purpose of the game and are consumed with a min/max mentality.
That's ok, but the game gets pretty stale when the stakes are high and the pool of pieces is low. Doesn't anyone play for fun anymore? | |
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Orion72
Underboss
1917 Posts
| | 08/03/2006 10:19 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by moebigsley
I think most of the people on this board have lost sight of the true purpose of the game and are consumed with a min/max mentality.
That's ok, but the game gets pretty stale when the stakes are high and the pool of pieces is low. Doesn't anyone play for fun anymore?
In my experience, most people play fun bands more often than not. Fun bands don't require much discussion, however, so what ends up on the boards is mostly talk of what's competitive.
Want to play a fun band that wins or loses spectacularly? Try Soth + Predator + 2 fodder. It's a Blast (and a Roar)! | | | |
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Gnolaum
Sergeant
855 Posts
| | 08/03/2006 10:29 AM |
| As others have poined out it is impossibly to make a band that beats tier 1 bands, without being a tier 1 band by definition.
And this isn't it anyway. | | | |
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warty_nosed_goblin
Underboss
1384 Posts
| | 08/03/2006 10:29 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Orion72
quote:
Originally posted by moebigsley
I think most of the people on this board have lost sight of the true purpose of the game and are consumed with a min/max mentality.
That's ok, but the game gets pretty stale when the stakes are high and the pool of pieces is low. Doesn't anyone play for fun anymore?
In my experience, most people play fun bands more often than not. Fun bands don't require much discussion, however, so what ends up on the boards is mostly talk of what's competitive.
Want to play a fun band that wins or loses spectacularly? Try Soth + Predator + 2 fodder. It's a Blast (and a Roar)!
I confess myself to be baffled by this strange notion that because your playing to win using a good band your not having fun. I generally try to play good bands, and typically try to win, but I also enjoy playing the game. I can get where at some matches (qualifiers finals, GenCon Grinder) things get a bit tense, but other then that, my guess is that most people go to tournements to enjoy themselves. | |
Call me: W.N. Gobo!
originally posted by grim:
While he is clearly insane, he does have a point. | |
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Vrecknidj
Warlord
10493 Posts
United States
| | 08/03/2006 10:35 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by moebigsley
I think most of the people on this board have lost sight of the true purpose of the game and are consumed with a min/max mentality.
The "true purpose" as defined by whom? [)] I think that there are min/max mentalities pervading the boards right now, like they did last August, because the championship is around the corner.quote:
That's ok, but the game gets pretty stale when the stakes are high and the pool of pieces is low. Doesn't anyone play for fun anymore?
Yep. Starting around August 14th, I'll be playing minis for fun again, until about April '07.
Dave | |
Knowledge Arcana editor issues 5-9, Phoenix Lore Magazine editor, assistant editor for Rite Publishing;
My Trade Thread and My Reference Thread; Winner of WBC IV, IX and XIII; Rule #0: bshugg is always right! | |
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Chozyn
Warrior
213 Posts
| | 08/03/2006 10:44 AM |
| The Championship scene is fun, but competitive. To compete you have to run something that is Tier 1 to combat all the other tier 1 bands you will face.
Meta's always tend to bog down around championship time due to the lack of new band ideas. Everyone is either running what is proven with some tech, or is tight lipped about the "spoiler band" they are running. | |
Join the fun of the Eternal Campaign
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froffenhoffer
Sergeant
702 Posts
| | 08/03/2006 10:52 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by moebigsley
I think most of the people on this board have lost sight of the true purpose of the game and are consumed with a min/max mentality.
That's ok, but the game gets pretty stale when the stakes are high and the pool of pieces is low. Doesn't anyone play for fun anymore?
The problem with this is that if you have someone to play with or a local tourney you can play a fun band at, then the champs and whatnot become serious bands only.
I play with my bro, and we come up with crasy bands, including 200 point dragon bands, (successful) attempts to make blackspawn competitive (that was him), playing artemis or ulmo, which is fun but can not be done at tourneys etc. So the only people who play fun bands at tourneys are people who have no one to play with anyway | |
Champion of Wildshaped druid in with natural spell!
Thus said froffenhoffer
The Official through the heart, and im to blame archer. | |
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Pauper
Sergeant
508 Posts
| | 08/03/2006 11:23 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Vrecknidj
I might go with something like...
Arcane Ballista
Couatl
War Weaver
Cleric of Lathander
Sacred Watcher x2
Standardbearer
Jozan
Now that I think of it, this is a pretty good band....
I agree - it was a band just like this that turned me on to the Ballista in the first place. However, I wasn't thrilled with some of the choices in this specific band, so I tweaked mine:
OUT: Cleric of Lathander
IN: Cleric of Dol'Arrah
Reason: Tougher, better commander rating (for initiative and morale checks), better healing. Dol'Arrah isn't useless against SWarm - his three deific vengeance spells have a decent chance to eliminate a Watcher outright.
However, this also puts me seriously over 200 points, so I have to downgrade some stuff.
OUT: Sacred Watcher x2
IN: Warforged Scout, Aasimar Fighter
Reason: The Scout handles one big problem for this band; lack of mobility. With the Scout, you can often get an early point lead on your opponent, even if the Scout falls turn 2. This forces your opponent to come to you, which is precisely what you want. A Sacred Watcher tilegrabber, on the other hand, needs to stand on a victory area for two turns to make up his cost, and if the opponent eliminates it before that, you're in the tough position of needing to move up to your opponent, which is hard to do with this band. More importantly, I found that good opponents simply tended to ignore the Watchers to focus on the Ballista anyway.
The Aasimar Fighter takes advantage of the CFX of the Cleric of Dol'Arrah, deals as much damage to Firebelchers or other CE critters as the Watcher, and can be a target for the War Weaver's bull's strength to make him even more dangerous. For a four-point fig, that's not too shabby.
Now I have some points left over, so I make my final swap:
OUT: Jozan
IN: Royal Guard
Reason: The Royal Guard mainly exists in this band to fill points. I could see using an Arcanix Guard instead, especially if you expect to face Marut, Rikka, Zak Rak, or even a Sword Archon. The Royal Guard does have Melee Reach 2, but in a meta heavy with the aforementioned creatures, that's not a big enough advantage to be worth the extra point. Like the Aasimar, the Royal Guard can be loaded with bull's strength, making an initial War Weaver move of bull's strength on Aasimar, Royal, and Standardbearer a viable option. And I didn't see the need to replace Jozan with another spellcaster - of the seven non-Ballista figures in the Jozan band, five are spellcasters, which are more than are really necessary.
I also want to comment that the more I test, the more I like the Ballista on the championship maps. On Forest Cliff Lair, most folks like taking side A, but a Ballista on side B is just two double-moves away from being comfortably in the woods, and a third move (or dimension hop) away from being impossible to shut down by being based. On Dragon Shrine, most folks like to start on side A both because of the greater distance from the exit and the presence of the fire shrine; a Ballista loves setting up in the shared victory area inside the magic circle near the exit, and side B lets him get there in the shortest possible amount of time. The Ballista isn't running, and any enemy figures that do draw commanders into the open to present themselves as targets.
Teleport Temple simply takes practice to control access lanes, but keep in mind that with the Couatl's ability to fly, it's not always necessary for a spellcaster to precede the Ballista through a teleport pad. It actually takes quite a while and requires some fodder-winnowing before you can comfortably | |
Champion of the War Wizard of Cormyr | |
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Thurbal
Skirmisher
46 Posts
| | 08/03/2006 12:19 PM |
| In a metagame overwhelmed by marut/couatl on drow outpost I have had alot of success with a tripple death slaad team... we actually finish 1rst and 2nd at the montreal qualifier with tripple slaad bands...
And now with the comming of the belchers... i'm not sur that marut couatl will live forever... | |
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Gunthar
Commander
2938 Posts
| | 08/03/2006 1:22 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Orion72
I've only used it once so far, and that was in an Epic band, but I think one of the best tech pieces out is the Spellscale. It nerfs swiftness, nerfs non-SR beaters, and gives your big guy Conceal 6.
A Kord, Moon Elf, Spellscale, multi-Crow band might have some interesting possiblities.
AoK 65
Moonie 49
Spellscale 31
Crow Shaman x2 52
Xeph
Huh, that's a weird build. Who would run something like that? [)]
There are some other things to try, but I'm not at liberty to discuss them for another week and a half. By the way, LG is not overpowered, they finally have some decent synergy and pieces to work with after sucking tailpipe for so long. The problem is they only have a few units with enough speed to be playable, and those get used over and over. | |
Champion of Prit(Wemic vindication is here)
Minneapolis/St. Paul area
Completed trades: Aspect of Cheese (Love that moniker), Tickparasite, Elderthing, Lalato, Sodj, Grimoire, SmilinIrish, Zeb, RWarehall,Link, wikkawikkawa, Auramancer, Rommers, HK, Ivid5,Qillan_dvra, Puggins, Arcabius, Ironfist Boulderbender, Robby, Corim Danex, monster_slayer, DNDJUNKIE, Kelemvor, Krush, ckissee, Massawyrm, hockey fan, Wish, Uninspiring Lieutenant, vtloon x2, Vrecknidj, Darthpoke, WakeXX, AnarionZell, lycusmike, papabear5 and umpteen local trades with board members
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Orion72
Underboss
1917 Posts
| | 08/03/2006 1:29 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Gunthar
Huh, that's a weird build. Who would run something like that? [)]
Credit where credit is due. Scott crushed me with Kord, Moon Elf, dual Crows during a casual weekend game. In one phase, Kord dishes 90 damage. That punk needs to get a haircut and a real job!
My Hezrou was only one hit away from killing Kord when he fell. That's something at least [:)] | | | |
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Avatar of the Tank
Newtoncain
Commander
2985 Posts
Land of 10,000 taxes
| | 08/03/2006 1:42 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Chozyn
The Championship scene is fun, but competitive. To compete you have to run something that is Tier 1 to combat all the other tier 1 bands you will face.
Meta's always tend to bog down around championship time due to the lack of new band ideas. Everyone is either running what is proven with some tech, or is tight lipped about the "spoiler band" they are running.
That all depends if you playing in the championship to win no matter the cost.[:(]
Or
Playing in the championship (wanting to win) to have fun.[^]
Or
Playing in the "Grinder" for a chance to play in the championship.[:I] | |
They just don't know what's good in life...Conan, tell them what is good in life.
To rip the boosters. To count the minis spilled out before you, and to hear the indifference of the women... | |
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Faragdar the Wise
Commander
3547 Posts
Albuquerque, NM, USA
| | 08/03/2006 1:42 PM |
| | How does the Arcane Ballista handle GAS? Without the large target bonus, I don't see it getting a lot of hits before the speedy, high AC monks are on top of it (even the Young Master has AC 25 against those ballista shots, 29 if he can find cover). | |
"Before God we are all equally wise - and equally foolish." - Albert Einstein
Champion of Myopic Half-Orcs
Winner, WBC X | |
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Driedupheart
Skirmisher
7 Posts
| | 08/03/2006 2:33 PM |
| | The Arcane Ballista packs a serious punch with the extra elemental damage, and with the right buffs (magic weapon + bless) its not so much of a chore to hit them with their 25 AC (16+1+1=18, 25-18=7, 3/10 chance of missing a gith). | |
"Squeeky wheel gets the kick!" - Minsc, Baldur's Gate. | |
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DrakoonHarmtoucher
Sneak
135 Posts
| | 08/03/2006 3:24 PM |
| shut down teir 1 bands? go CE!
ive had a lot of luck with
deathslaad, drummer, orc champ, red sam, mdp, q slave, stirge, orc war
against kords, maruts, gas, archmage, belchers, swarm, le quads, balistas
high damage, high speed, some flight, area attacks, and almost everyone is a threat
going to try to fit in a witchknife to shut down snake swiftnesses | |
trade refs:http://www.maxminis.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=23164 | |
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Low Key
Underboss
1231 Posts
| | 08/03/2006 4:27 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by moebigsley
Doesn't anyone play for fun anymore?
Dont forget that quite many people find competetive playing fun. | |
Champion of the Sarrukh | |
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doranur
Warrior
180 Posts
| | 08/03/2006 5:18 PM |
| the specific point of this post was to find a non tier 1 band that would have some competitive aspects. saying the point of this game has been lost in the responses to the post is kinda misleading.
that being said i do play just for fun bands... for me lately it's been a dual ogre war hulk band with 2 orc druids... try it out sometime it's fun and slightly competitive. i just don't see whats fun about playing a random bin of peices and getting stomped all the time. | |
-Doranur
join the revolution! down with round/turn fascism! viva la resistance! | |
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TianZi
Skirmisher
25 Posts
| | 08/03/2006 5:21 PM |
| When I play my friend(s) we usually play T-2 bands to test out different pieces. When a tourney looms, one of us picks a (hopefully) T-1 band while the other rotates through different "fun" builds, again to test.
When it's time to win or lose, we play the best bands we can.
I think it's a fun way to do it. | |
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Driedupheart
Skirmisher
7 Posts
| | 08/03/2006 7:24 PM |
| I believe that this has gone into some territory I didn't intend. I don't think that the game isn't fun, nor do I believe the intention of current Tier-1 bands were meant to make the game stale. Each new set that comes to pass brings more to the table giving players the chance to experiment with what works and what doesn't. Experimentation is the very essence of the game.
My intention was to find a band that had a different flavor, with pieces that were tossed aside as worthless (the poor downtrodden Arcanix Guard), and still have a competitive edge to where I wouldn't get completely beaten in a small matter of rounds (like with my power of the drow based warband....poor poor Lolth's Stings). Not something that would indefinitely beat all Tier-1 warbands to become one itself, but something different than current bands that could at least hold on to some chance of victory.
The suggestions have been great, though a little off the path of what I was hoping for (Couatl is a great piece, but I think we've seen enough of him haven't we?). | |
"Squeeky wheel gets the kick!" - Minsc, Baldur's Gate. | |
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Pauper
Sergeant
508 Posts
| | 08/03/2006 7:58 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Faragdar the Wise
How does the Arcane Ballista handle GAS?
I had a long, wordy response planned for this question, but it boils down to this: against the listed builds, GAS has more important targets than the Ballista. The outcome will depend in large part how many shots the Ballista gets in while the GAS pilot hunts down the Standardbearer (and possibly the War Weaver), and if the Ballista pilot can manage to rout or destroy the YM in the process. (The CoDA's dismissal can be very valuable in opening up the proper firing lane here.)
GAS certainly has the advantage, though that edge is close to minimal on the Forest Cliff Lair if the Ballista band gets side B, IMO.
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Pauper | |
Champion of the War Wizard of Cormyr | |
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Pauper
Sergeant
508 Posts
| | 08/03/2006 8:08 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Driedupheart
My intention was to find a band that had a different flavor, with pieces that were tossed aside as worthless (the poor downtrodden Arcanix Guard), and still have a competitive edge to where I wouldn't get completely beaten in a small matter of rounds (like with my power of the drow based warband....poor poor Lolth's Stings). Not something that would indefinitely beat all Tier-1 warbands to become one itself, but something different than current bands that could at least hold on to some chance of victory.
Sorry to be part of the hijacking force, but I think XAos and Gnolaum pretty much summed up the situation far above - if there was a warband that could legitimately compete in a tourney regardless of what other bands showed up, tier-1 or no, then that would, by definition, be a tier-1 band.
Plus, it's not as though the War Weaver and Standardbearer are underplayed, either. [:)]
I think your best bet is simply to find pieces that other folks don't like and put them together with 'good figures' to make slightly off-kilter bands. But if you put in too many 'sub-optimal' figures, you're going to have a sub-optimal band. Case in point: my first-ever DDM tourney band contained both a Standardbearer and an Aasimar Favored Soul, two figures that are gaining popularity in the current metagame. At the time, however, the rest of my band consisted of Gold Dragon, Sword of Heironeous, Warmage, and a bunch of Hill Dwarf Warriors. Needless to say, I didn't do very well.
Actually, if it wasn't for all the fire resistance in the current meta, I'd seriously consider trying to make the Warmage viable again...
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Pauper | |
Champion of the War Wizard of Cormyr | |
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Driedupheart
Skirmisher
7 Posts
| | 08/03/2006 11:27 PM |
| | I was more pointing towars the Arcanix Guard with the underused statment. (It's just a guy with a helmet, a shield, some crappy armor and a mace, but he'd scare Marut with the Village Priest ^_^). I made a crappy warband that got hosed in a small tournament, 2 Mounted Drow Patrol, a Xen'Drik, 3 Lolth's stings, a Large Deep Dragon, and a Bugbear Champ. It worked half-decent in uncompetitive that I thought I'd give it a shot in competitive.......3-2 record with it, and I got lucky with my first win that the other person wasn't good with math and wasn't paying attention where she was putting her band. | |
"Squeeky wheel gets the kick!" - Minsc, Baldur's Gate. | |
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elder_basilisk
Sergeant
410 Posts
| | 08/04/2006 2:18 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by XAos
quote:
Originally posted by Vrecknidj
In a way, that defines a tier-1 band. Actually, let me re-state that. There are two kinds of bands that beat tier-1 bands, other tier-1 bands, and spoiler bands (kinda like the old Field Marshal and Spy from the Stratego game, I suppose).
But a spoiler band that is strong against a wide range of tier-1 bands is itself a tier-1 warband.
And if the spoiler band is only strong against a few of the tier-1 warbands, why play it.?
There are, I think, answers to both questions.
1. A non-tier 1, non-spoiler band that can beat tier one bands: an unacceptably high variance band. One example of this is: Half-orc paladin+2x Justicator+village priest+3x arcanix guards+warforged scout. It is a strong band with good potential against a lot of the tier 1 bands out there (though it might have trouble with SWarm). The problem? Morale. You will win a lot of games, but you'll have trouble even consistently doing well in tournaments because you are quite likely to have one or more games where both justicators fail morale and flee off the table. A similar example is the old multiple eyes of Gruumsch band. You could run a bunch of eyes of gruumsch and some orc warriors. If you made your morale checks, you had very good odds against everything. But, the odds were not especially good on those morale checks.
These high variance bands aren't exactly spoiler bands. They have potential against most of the field. However, the fact that one or more aspects of the bands (morale in these cases) relies on the "I'll just get lucky" plan keeps them from being solidly tier 1. In any given match, they are a strong, if variable, choice. Across an entire tournament, they are not especially likely to perform.
2. Why play a narrow spoiler band?
A. Because you anticipate a narrow field. A number of players at the California Open did well with some combination of Marut+aspect of moradin. Why? Because nearly half the field was hill giants. Now, while marut+aspect of moradin is not really a spoiler band, it definitely does much better against hill giants than against most other matchups.
At the Utah qualifier, the meta was very strongly weighted with sacred watchers and maruts/coatls. A player who brought quad zakya rakshasas might have done very well. (Of course the one player who did bring triple Zakya Rakshasas faced a hill giant band in his first match and didn't face a single sacred watcher in the entire tourney--such is life :). Of course, quad rakshasas is not exactly a spoiler band, but it demonstrates the point.A player who correctly anticipates the metagame can do very well.
B. The other reason to play a band that will do well only against a few bands is because that is how you generate enjoyment from the game--not in the quantity of wins but rather in seeing all of your combo come together. WotC describes this kind of player as a "Timmy" and the Wiley Coyote label might also be apt. Playing dual death knight is a death sentence against most bands, but I suspect it would be very very deadly against chraals. And defeating a better player by having the perfectly tailored band to tool his band would be enough to make a tournamant fun for some people. | |
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Thaine
Sneak
67 Posts
| | 08/04/2006 2:41 AM |
| next teir 1 band:
Mounted paladin
cleric of Dol 'Arah
gold dwarf soldier x3
timber wolf
man at arms
or if you like:
mounted Paladin x2
warforged scout
was trying to figure out how many fighters i could fit with the cleric and still get a truely solid hitter in, and paladin doesn't get used around here much. ^^ | |
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