| | You are not authorized to post a reply. |
| | Author | Messages | |
MongoTheMighty
Skirmisher
15 Posts
    
 | | 08/04/2006 1:40 AM |
| | I hvae read alot of excitment about the belchers, in particualr a quad belcher band. I like the idea of auto damage, but! its only 20? Ce has alot better Dmg Options ac and hp are nothing to write home about. Couatls are used about as much as timber wolves in my meta, so that takes your Dmg out put to 10?? Eye Of Grummsh does 50 by himself? marut swiftnees? it seems to lack staying power, range 6 belch? that means you will use it when your in combat, with smart manuevering your opponent can minimize the burst... I think im obviously missing something here, everyone raves about them please point out the error of my ways! The biggest con would be Teleport Temple.... and dragon shrine? Am i just talking crazy here? | |
| |
|
Korhal_IV
Sergeant
852 Posts
| | 08/04/2006 2:09 AM |
| 85 HP is very solid, particularly since you've got 4 of them. While it's true that CE can generate bigger damage values (Orc Champ and Ravager can get 30 easily, Hill Giant Barbarian can get 40), these are usually prefixed by an attack roll that you need to pull, whereas the Belcher auto-hits, an important factor against high-AC bands such as Tordek, Marut, etc. The Belcher also does splash damage, which is important in wiping fodder and stacking damage on multiple figures at once.
You're also overestimating the impact of Couatl/Dragonshrine on the Firebelcher. Quad Firebelchers are still putting out 120 points of damage against a Couatl-defended creature, without ever needing to pick up a d20, and before we factor in any splash damage that could leak through due to bad positioning on the Couatl player's part. A Marut can't handle the 120 HP damage, and Kord's AC is low enough for the Belchers to hit it reliably. Couatl is definitely a hindrance, but it's not game over, particularly since Couatl/Marut type bands have difficulty against other bands in the meta, such as LE quad hitters (Zakya says GLEE! to Maruts and Sacred Watchers!).
And for the championships, in which maps are predetermined, Couatl doesn't do so well because the titans it supports don't do so well. GAS and LE Quad will be much more prominent there than elsewhere. So the furor over Firebelchers is partly supported by that. | |
I now have a Have/Want list updated with all my rares! Stop by to take a look!
Trade References: www.maxminis.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=8560 | |
|
Thaine
Sneak
67 Posts
| | 08/04/2006 2:23 AM |
| | also overlooking (perhaps, not sure) that wardrummer is going to be present, and he can easily switch to countersong for a round to blast a couatl protected piece. as stated, the 85 hp and 20 instant damage without needing to roll is really solid. and their melee is decent enough to tackle things that are naturally immune. it dodges deurgar champ conceal rolls, and gets around gith high AC. watchers could be a problem, but when are they not if you're not packing chill touch? a band can't be good against everything *generalization, not a challenge to be proven wrong* and i've seen the belchers in action. if you're not convinced of their combat worthiness, grab a couple and play with a few times. | |
| |
| 
Vrecknidj
Warlord
10493 Posts
United States
| | 08/04/2006 9:32 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by MongoTheMighty
I hvae read alot of excitment about the belchers, in particualr a quad belcher band. I like the idea of auto damage, but! its only 20?
?!
Four Firebelchers times three belches each times 20 damage per belch is 240 points of damage.
Sure, four Eyes of Gruumsh can do 200 points of damage in a round, but they all have to hit, and they all have to not go running off the board.
I think 240 points of automatic damage is plenty powerful thank you very much.
Dave | |
Knowledge Arcana editor issues 5-9, Phoenix Lore Magazine editor, assistant editor for Rite Publishing;
My Trade Thread and My Reference Thread; Winner of WBC IV, IX and XIII; Rule #0: bshugg is always right! | |
|
YRM_DM
Sergeant
905 Posts
| | 08/04/2006 11:12 AM |
| Yes, the Eye and Orc Champ can do their damage more quickly, but, they take damage faster too.
The FireBelchers can force the enemy to move in and attack, rather than counter attack with a full action.
You're pretty likely to get at least 2 belches in.
This is also why the Red Samurai is just as viable as the Orc Champ, in spite of a low damage output. The Samurai can start off the damage by using it's cone, rather than being forced to walk up and swing.
You can also make it tough for large units to base the Fire Belchers by putting screeners in the way.
| |
Completed good trades with Demagogue, PigSnot, DoB, and Alepulp.
I know you can hear MY thoughts... Meow, Meow, Meow, Meow, Meow, Meow, Meow, Meow... | |
|
theplumber
Sneak
72 Posts
| | 08/04/2006 5:29 PM |
| | DDM has come a long way when the formerly powerful Gauth did a deadly 15 auto fire damage and for the same cost you can now get a firebelcher who only does 20 auto fire. I know im discounting range and the secondary eye rays of the gauth. I think the firebelcher is very worth his price, but I cant say im sold on the idea of four of them together. Maybe the elf pryomancer can make a comback and Kord will return back to his normal faction and become a fire immune belcher killer, with his resist 10 fire crow shaman buddy right behind | |
| |
|
Sirohk
Commander
3938 Posts
USA
| | 08/04/2006 5:58 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Vrecknidj
quote:
Originally posted by MongoTheMighty
I hvae read alot of excitment about the belchers, in particualr a quad belcher band. I like the idea of auto damage, but! its only 20?
?!
Four Firebelchers times three belches each times 20 damage per belch is 240 points of damage.
Sure, four Eyes of Gruumsh can do 200 points of damage in a round, but they all have to hit, and they all have to not go running off the board.
I think 240 points of automatic damage is plenty powerful thank you very much.
Dave
I'll ditto that.
| |
Sirohk, the Bard of Heartstone
Knight of the Rahshasa's
And Crusader of the Zakya, Ak'chazar, Naztharune, and Naityan Rakshasa's | |
| Knight of the
Round Table
Thenameless
Warlord
12507 Posts
The Fortress of Solitude
| | 08/04/2006 8:01 PM |
| | Careful Mongo. While quad Belchers might be easy to shut down, I played against a tri Belcher that had a Wardrummer in it, to countersong my Couatl, and it hurt. | |
Over 270 successful online DDM trades. | |
|
robbdaman
Underboss
2380 Posts
| | 08/04/2006 9:38 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Vrecknidj
quote:
Originally posted by MongoTheMighty
I hvae read alot of excitment about the belchers, in particualr a quad belcher band. I like the idea of auto damage, but! its only 20?
?!
Four Firebelchers times three belches each times 20 damage per belch is 240 points of damage.
Sure, four Eyes of Gruumsh can do 200 points of damage in a round, but they all have to hit, and they all have to not go running off the board.
I think 240 points of automatic damage is plenty powerful thank you very much.
Dave
Except in the instance where something is immune to fire. Then it's 0 points of automatic damage. I'd prefer to utilize less belchers and more beaters for that specific instance when you do run into fire immunity or the mirror match. That's why Bi-Tri belcher/Ogre Rav or Red Sam is a better option in my opinion.
R~ | |
Champion of the Titan
******************************************************************************************************************************************************
Successful trades with: Tickparasite, Iyceman, Faragdar The Wise's friend, avrivah, Drakkengi, brucemc, Krush, maniacal_mini_monger, hung4treason, Gandy, NarlethDrider, Kunimatyu, etc, etc, blah, blah, blah..... | |
|
MongoTheMighty
Skirmisher
15 Posts
| | 08/05/2006 2:06 AM |
| | After looking at the replies I can see what i overlooked and concede some ground, Auto damage is nice but maybe throwing all your eggs in the same basket isnt the way to go, Dual belchers with a few beaters, although 4 belchers and an eye makes me laugh... not really serious guys. What are some of the ideas out tehre involving Dual belchers? does this restrict them more or do poeple agree in thinking perhaps a better strategy.... I CRAVE KNOWLEDGE!!! | |
| |
|
Low Key
Underboss
1231 Posts
| | 08/05/2006 6:30 AM |
| | In the current high AC meta, I'd rather use Belchers over traditional beaters. Even the Eye of Gruumsh doesnt hit as often as most people would like when facinmg a T/B/C. (Titan, Bodyguard/Couatl) The win to win games is consistency, and belchers have alot of that. When backed with a drummer + commander they arent very likely to run away, they have alot of HP and they have a sure fire way to -always- do damage if needed. I'm sure that if I had to pick between 75% chance of doing 25 damage or 100% chance for 10-20, I'll pick the autodamage. | |
Champion of the Sarrukh | |
|
Goldmoon
Sergeant
986 Posts
| | 08/05/2006 7:00 AM |
|
Maybe it just me, the problem I had with quad blechers is their large size, movement can be quite a headache at times.
| |
"HA! Activate take 10 and you cant hit me."
"Once I start, I will not flater."
"BLOOD make the grass grow!" | |
|
Vrecknidj
Warlord
10493 Posts
United States
| | 08/05/2006 8:55 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Low Key
In the current high AC meta, I'd rather use Belchers over traditional beaters. The [way] to win games is consistency, and belchers have alot of that. When backed with a drummer + commander they arent very likely to run away, they have alot of HP and they have a sure fire way to -always- do damage if needed.
I wonder how much this will push the meta toward including fire-immune pieces. Already I've seen LG bands adapting by adding an Azer Raider, and the Efreeti will probably get a popularity increase for LE as well. In CG, suddenly there's all kinds of talk about the Elf Pyromancer again.
But, as soon as Bloodwar comes out, all bets are off again--who knows how it'll stir the pot.
Dave | |
Knowledge Arcana editor issues 5-9, Phoenix Lore Magazine editor, assistant editor for Rite Publishing;
My Trade Thread and My Reference Thread; Winner of WBC IV, IX and XIII; Rule #0: bshugg is always right! | |
|
Sirohk
Commander
3938 Posts
USA
| | 08/05/2006 10:12 AM |
| Belchers are the current flavor of the month. They're the "in" piece to try right now. Heck, the auto damage is just great and tough to beat.
IMO they will show up in force at the Grinder and a few will be played in the championships.
But given the maps for the championships, I do not think Quad Firebelchers will make top 8. Some deviation using the Firebelcher in the hands of a good player may do well though.
Just my $0.02.
[:D]
| |
Sirohk, the Bard of Heartstone
Knight of the Rahshasa's
And Crusader of the Zakya, Ak'chazar, Naztharune, and Naityan Rakshasa's | |
|
KitShickers
Skirmisher
20 Posts
| | 08/05/2006 11:00 AM |
| I like CE, but I hate Belchers.
There are other factors besides high moral saves, high hitpoints, and auto damage that make them effective. the 10 pts of colataral damage, make it more difficult for an opponent w/o fire resistance to place thier pieces to minimize damage. My first instinct is to get as many of my licks in as I can with a pack of beaters before the firebelchers can get all there belches in. This means you have to spread out your forces and concentrate attacks all at the same time. Not an easy task.
Going man on man on man is another option, if you can manage to out manuver them and beat them down toe to toe with some really powerful pieces, you might survive. The difficulty.... decent ac, lotsa hitpoints, and you can still expect to take enough for a moral save. I'm thinking against hgb x2, but then three belchers could still gang up on one hgb with the two leftover floaters. I did resonably well with redsam, grummsh and hgb in the teleport temple. poor hgb routed though. That was the risk I took.
Q: Why do I hate Firebelchers if I like CE?
A1: If I hear "Belch for 20" or "oh, made the moral check" I will pop.
A2: Asthetics. They look like pigs with claws and a long tail.
Q: Why will I never run a quad Firebelcher band?
A: I do not want to be the proud owner of 15 barneys, and 15 purple worms. Where would I put all that plastic....
| |
| |
| Master of the
Awesome Sauce
Teflon Jeff
Warlord
7908 Posts
Sector 2814
| | 08/05/2006 11:37 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Goldmoon
Maybe it just me, the problem I had with quad blechers is their large size, movement can be quite a headache at times.
this is actally a huge bonus to me. I like how large bases can block up space. (Titan's, Chraal) It gives me more control over the flow of the battle. | |
Official Delegate, Wizards of the Coast
Icons Called Shot: Gargantuan Prismatic Dragon
"Rejoice, for bad things are about to happen." | |
|
Gunthar
Commander
2938 Posts
| | 08/05/2006 12:19 PM |
| | Yeah, the theory behind Quad belchers is walling off you limited support. If a belcher pilot can wedge his wardrummer in the middle, it's hard to takle him out. | |
Champion of Prit(Wemic vindication is here)
Minneapolis/St. Paul area
Completed trades: Aspect of Cheese (Love that moniker), Tickparasite, Elderthing, Lalato, Sodj, Grimoire, SmilinIrish, Zeb, RWarehall,Link, wikkawikkawa, Auramancer, Rommers, HK, Ivid5,Qillan_dvra, Puggins, Arcabius, Ironfist Boulderbender, Robby, Corim Danex, monster_slayer, DNDJUNKIE, Kelemvor, Krush, ckissee, Massawyrm, hockey fan, Wish, Uninspiring Lieutenant, vtloon x2, Vrecknidj, Darthpoke, WakeXX, AnarionZell, lycusmike, papabear5 and umpteen local trades with board members
| |
|
Thaine
Sneak
67 Posts
| | 08/06/2006 6:09 PM |
| | out of 19 people, we had three belcher bands, and two of them made it to top four, taking first and third. mine was the first using two belchers, ogre ravager, red sam, and wardrummer. the fourth was triple belcher, ogre ravager, wardrummer. the one that didn't place was double belcher balor. i had to play the balor band, and in that instance it wasn't he belchers, it was the other peices. i don't think quad belcher is the way to go...triple belcher looks solid, still dealing 180 pts of damage, and giving room for another beater against those things immune fire. the belchers are great, and are doing well right now, but the small variations that could make the difference in a belcher band. | |
| |
|
Janos M.
Underboss
1015 Posts
Hamburg / GErmany
| | 08/07/2006 6:24 AM |
| | out of which tourney? | |
My Haves and wants:
http://www.maxminis.com/hw_list.asp?user=Janos_M.
Champion of Elan Psions
Proud Owner of the "Aura of cursed dice" | |
|
azuretide
Sergeant
407 Posts
| | 08/07/2006 9:11 AM |
| | I think people are underestimating the power of the belchers, anything that does auto damage is powerful assuming its substancial damage. 20 damage per belcher per round make 80 damage a round for 4 belcher, since most of the belcher bands have a drummer in them you dont really need to worry about couatl's too much. | |
Completed trades: bonelock, noilo x2, greylord78, Altayr, Shadow Lord x3, qillan_dvra, symbiotesx2, devasque, smetzger, dulsin, Sir Bozak The Damned, Ironfist Boulderbender x3, tallcar24, Tactician x2, Okay McKay, skwave, dariustad,Eprosen,hung4treason,dog of the underworld,FeranEldritchKnight,Jerry_Damage01,vtloon | |
|
Goldmoon
Sergeant
986 Posts
| | 08/07/2006 10:52 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Gunthar
Yeah, the theory behind Quad belchers is walling off you limited support. If a belcher pilot can wedge his wardrummer in the middle, it's hard to takle him out.
This could be a double edge sword. They could block off their own support but they could also get into each other ways when they had to go into melee.
| |
"HA! Activate take 10 and you cant hit me."
"Once I start, I will not flater."
"BLOOD make the grass grow!" | |
|
| | You are not authorized to post a reply. |
|
| |
ActiveForums 3.7 | You must be signed in to participate in the
games. |