Sirohk
Commander
3938 Posts
    
USA
 | | 08/20/2006 5:18 AM |
| Now that the Championships are over with and we are not required to play on those 3 maps, will the Arcane Ballista now Dominate / Rule? I've seen it played a lot on the Dragondown Grotto and its killer to try and get across that pit with the Ballista raining down death to your figures. Any thoughts on this from all you DDM folks. 
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Sirohk, the Bard of Heartstone
Knight of the Rahshasa's
And Crusader of the Zakya, Ak'chazar, Naztharune, and Naityan Rakshasa's | |
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Vrecknidj
Warlord
10493 Posts
United States
| | 08/20/2006 6:31 AM |
| I doubt that it will dominate, but it will be a force to consider. I think that people will have to build their bands around the fact that they might lost map initiative and end up playing against the Ballista on the Dragondown Grotto. I mean, if you don't plan for it, and you end up playing against it on its map of choice, you're in trouble.
I suppose that two things will happen. First, there will be some bands that aren't so afraid of it on any map, and then there will be Large-figure-based bands (Couatl/Titan, Firebelchers) that will have to find filler pieces to deal with the Ballista.
I suppose the Spellscale Sorcerer shuts down some of the snake's swiftness threat, giving a band a bit more time to cross the map. And incorporeal blockers offer a similar degree of protection.
Dave
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Knowledge Arcana editor issues 5-9, Phoenix Lore Magazine editor, assistant editor for Rite Publishing;
My Trade Thread and My Reference Thread; Winner of WBC IV, IX and XIII; Rule #0: bshugg is always right! | |
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Cheese1100
Sneak
70 Posts
| | 08/20/2006 6:48 AM |
| | yea im with him besides my friend played a warband containing him quatl and masrut and he had no chance | |
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The Great
Choco Monster
Ghendar
Warlord
13089 Posts
Mud Lick, Kentucky
| | 08/20/2006 9:01 AM |
| I love the Ballista. I used it in a band with the Couatl, Cl of Order,
Kord, yada, yada band and it works pretty well. However, I struggled
with it on the forest cliff lair map
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Pauper
Sergeant
508 Posts
| | 08/21/2006 5:15 AM |
| The Ballista will be a significant factor, sure, and large figures will have to be concerned about it.
There's a lot more forest terrain on Dragondown Grotto than most people think, though - be sure to check out Guy's clarifications page for the official breakdown of what squares do what in the Grotto.
In my experience, a fast Medium creature can get across the north edge of the board, using Forest to block LoS, and get into a Ballista's face after a few rounds of movement. The tough part will be what to do if the opponent uses his Ballista to play point-denial; taking the east side of the map, setting up the Ballista with a view of the southern enemy victory area, and counting on the rest of his band to keep the Zone of Death victory area clear. Even so, I think GAS and even the traditioal CE Quad make good matchups for Ballista, even on Grotto.
I don't think the Spellscale is an answer, though, at least not on Grotto - you need line of sight to Counterspell, and it's just too hard to arrange it through the Forest terrain.
--
Pauper
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Champion of the War Wizard of Cormyr | |
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Orion72
Underboss
1917 Posts
| | 08/21/2006 5:41 AM |
| | So let me get this straight - LG got the best Undead piece, and now with the DDG map, they have the best ranged piece? Some faction is having identity issues! | | | |
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tundrin
Sergeant
424 Posts
Randolph, NJ
| | 08/21/2006 7:36 AM |
| I had same result, of DDG an AB picked me apart, whittled tordek down quickly and his foddr slowed me from around either side. I am thinking the LGD either solo or in multiple might be an effective piece. If can get over there in < 2 full moves, deal decent damage, can survive a couple sonic orbs from the coatl and can move and attack while the AB just moves to get away. Opponent has to keep a hitter back to deal with the dragon, since you can also go for the coatl or other cheesy spell caster instead of the AB and most other spell casters (except Marut) can fall pretty quickly to the LGD. If you take out CodA or Cleric of order etc then they also lose their MC bonus and initiative, so now you have even better chance of getting extra attacks on AB. I just havent finished a LGD band yet, but pairing with the CC seems interesting..... | |
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Chairman7w
Sergeant
484 Posts
| | 08/21/2006 10:17 AM |
| Yeah, it won the tournament in Sacramento this weekend (admittedly with a pretty good player Piloting it  ) pretty handily. I heard one player describe his match against it as "Walking into a Gatling Gun." It's a very strong build. | |
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Gunthar
Commander
2938 Posts
| | 08/21/2006 11:42 AM |
| | It's okay, but you really need a threat to keep your opponant away from it. Most of it's "captains" are relatively squishy. | |
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Pauper
Sergeant
508 Posts
| | 08/21/2006 11:54 AM |
| | [QUOTE]Chairman7w wrote: I heard one player describe his match against it as "Walking into a Gatling Gun." It's a very strong build.[/QUOTE] I read the report from that tourney; it's worth mentioning that the warband in question featured a Ballista, a Couatl, and two War Weavers. That is some crazy-mad shooting right there. | |
Champion of the War Wizard of Cormyr | |
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Sirohk
Commander
3938 Posts
USA
| | 08/21/2006 1:26 PM |
| [QUOTE]Pauper wrote
| Chairman7w wrote: I heard one player describe his match against it as "Walking into a Gatling Gun." It's a very strong build. |
I read the report from that tourney; it's worth mentioning that the warband in question featured a Ballista, a Couatl, and two War Weavers. That is some crazy-mad shooting right there. [/QUOTE] That would be a BIG OUCH. 3 or possibly 4 shots from the Ballista quite possibly in a single round. That's a lot of hurting being put on something. 
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Sirohk, the Bard of Heartstone
Knight of the Rahshasa's
And Crusader of the Zakya, Ak'chazar, Naztharune, and Naityan Rakshasa's | |
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Chairman7w
Sergeant
484 Posts
| | 08/21/2006 2:29 PM |
| The key is the map. On Dragondown Grotto in particular, if you win Map Initiative, it's a real good bet you'll win the game. On any other map, it's iffy. Oh - and there was a Sword of Heironius in that band too, so +7 on Init is VERY useful. That map selection on the first Init is the game, in my opinion. You win that, you win the match. | |
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Venport
Sergeant
739 Posts
| | 08/21/2006 2:56 PM |
| | Well all know Derry dose not Screw around with his warbands... the Grotto is a pain in the butt I just wish i could ahve plaed him... one of the best chances vs the baslsta is gas... | |
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PatEllis15
Commander
4463 Posts
| | 08/22/2006 8:07 AM |
| [QUOTE]Pauper wrote
| Chairman7w wrote: I heard one player describe his match against it as "Walking into a Gatling Gun." It's a very strong build. |
I read the report from that tourney; it's worth mentioning that the warband in question featured a Ballista, a Couatl, and two War Weavers. That is some crazy-mad shooting right there. [/QUOTE] Triple Death Slaad would enjoy that match up... Pat E | |
"Games evolve. Otherwise we'd still be pushing rocks around the dirt. What do you think the cavemen said when some dude showed up with sticks?" - Chairman7w | |
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Goldmoon
Sergeant
986 Posts
| | 08/22/2006 8:29 AM |
| [QUOTE]PatEllis15 wrote
Pauper wrote
| Chairman7w wrote: I heard one player describe his match against it as "Walking into a Gatling Gun." It's a very strong build. |
I read the report from that tourney; it's worth mentioning that the warband in question featured a Ballista, a Couatl, and two War Weavers. That is some crazy-mad shooting right there. |
Triple Death Slaad would enjoy that match up... Pat E [/QUOTE] Indeed......but if there a "shield" to block out the chaos hammer........ | |
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Myth Master Jr
Sergeant
418 Posts
| | 08/30/2006 6:55 PM |
| [QUOTE]Chairman7w wroteYeah, it won the tournament in Sacramento this weekend (admittedly with a pretty good player Piloting it ) pretty handily.[/QUOTE] What was in the band besides the AB? | |
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Lead Moderator
LCS
Underboss
1928 Posts
| | 08/30/2006 7:39 PM |
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The "Swarm of Spiders" is a particularly effective shield against the ballista, and on the Dragondown Grotto it is guaranteed to be between your forces and the ballista and starts in one of your victory areas 2/3 of the time. Not bad for 15 points. | | | |
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Myth Master Jr
Sergeant
418 Posts
| | 08/31/2006 1:26 PM |
| | Can anyone recall what was in the band besides AB? I'd really like to know. The local metagame here in Louisville doesn't turn up a lot of AB stuff. What I have seen was mixed with a GAS style band. | |
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GiliusThunderHead
Sneak
99 Posts
| | 08/31/2006 1:59 PM |
| Im working on my own devious ways to deal with Ballistae@! There are a few options..... Small or medium, fast (flying perhaps mwuahahaha) high AC creatures should do the trick...... especially if they can do good damage, maybe cleave a caster or two..... have enough HP to withstand a few shots from the AB.. And some other "caster-clearing" tricks might work as well... --GiliusThunderHead New ThunderHead bands: LG- Flying Avengers 9-0 LE- Bad News 4-0 CG- Gulgar Madness 1-1 CE- | |
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Maezer
Skirmisher
14 Posts
| | 09/01/2006 7:19 AM |
| [QUOTE]Myth Master Jr wrote
Can anyone recall what was in the band besides AB? I'd really like to know. The local metagame here in Louisville doesn't turn up a lot of AB stuff. What I have seen was mixed with a GAS style band.[/QUOTE] I believe the band that won the Sacramento tournament was: Arcane Ballista, Couatl, War Weaver x2, Sword of Heironeous, Timber Wolf x3 - on Dragondown Grotto | |
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Orion72
Underboss
1917 Posts
| | 09/01/2006 7:34 AM |
| | Doesn't the Spellscale shut down Ballista, since it usually needs to move and get swiftnessed in order to fire? | | | |
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Myth Master Jr
Sergeant
418 Posts
| | 09/01/2006 8:14 AM |
| Maezer wroteI believe the band that won the Sacramento tournament was: Arcane Ballista, Couatl, War Weaver x2, Sword of Heironeous, Timber Wolf x3 - on Dragondown Grotto  Wow, at first glance it doesn't really seem very effective. Whats the strategy behind it? | |
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GiliusThunderHead
Sneak
99 Posts
| | 09/01/2006 8:52 AM |
| I think the generall idea is to move the ballista, either actually move it or D-Hop it with the weavers, and you can get off 3 shots via Snakes Swiftness, 4 if you have good LOS at the start of the round. Forest Squares are very important to this band, as it lets the Ballista fire while threatened(based), and lets the casters cast while threatened(based). A ballista can take down a large target very very quickly in this fashion. The weakness of this band is the squishyness of the War Weavers IMHO. Once they are gone, the offensive capabilities take a tumble, although The Couatl is no slouch with direct damamge spells and Snakes swiftness. --GiliusThunderHead | |
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Arlequino
Skirmisher
11 Posts
| | 09/03/2006 8:16 AM |
| I've won one tournament with arcane ballista, my band was:
Arcane Ballista
Couatl
Justicator
Warforged Bodyguard
Healer
Warforged Scout
Mialee, Elf Wizard
Hill Dwarf Warrior
Total: 200 point , 8 activations
Map: Drow Outpost
Easy to play: Block the ennemy with Justicator with bodyguard and healer behind, then, shoot with ballista...  | |
Waluigi, I'm a gonna win! | |
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IHawk
Underboss
1054 Posts
Lisle, Illinois
| | 09/03/2006 10:44 AM |
| swarm of spiders with the tripple death slaads could be really effective! gives you at least one full round to get your slaads into position to fire away.
good call on the SofSpiders.
mark | |
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Knight of the
Round Table
Thenameless
Warlord
12507 Posts
The Fortress of Solitude
| | 09/03/2006 12:35 PM |
| Posted By Orion72 on 08/21/2006 5:41 AM
So let me get this straight - LG got the best Undead piece, and now with the DDG map, they have the best ranged piece? Some faction is having identity issues!
Yup. And Tordek, Dwarf Champion is now the heaviest hitter in the game. Not some CE giant or some CG barbarian. Kind of ridiculous isn't it? | |
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visage
Sneak
107 Posts
| | 09/04/2006 1:04 AM |
| Posted By Orion72 on 09/01/2006 7:34 AM
Doesn't the Spellscale shut down Ballista, since it usually needs to move and get swiftnessed in order to fire? If using the Dragon Down Grotto is is possible to use the forrest squares to have the casters hidden from view and able to cast those Snakes Swiftness. It is a very dangerous warband on that map, but other maps it is very iffy.
Ran:
Sword of Heironeous
Couatl
Arcane Ballista
War Weaver
Sacred Watcher x2
Mailee
Timber Wolf
Played 4 rounds, lost map initiative 2 times.
On my map (DDG) won Both games, one was close (Orcs) and one not so close (Tordek and Dire Bear)
When lost map, split it, won against CG (Mordie, Half-Giant Psyc, and some other stuff) on Dragon Shrine, lost (trip Green Dragons) on Drow Outpost.
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Vrecknidj
Warlord
10493 Posts
United States
| | 09/04/2006 5:28 AM |
| I have mostly been playing 500-point since GenCon, but, I have been including an Arcane Ballista in several bands. I have noticed that the piece is almost reliant on certain maps. On others, it's much, much less effective.
Dave | |
Knowledge Arcana editor issues 5-9, Phoenix Lore Magazine editor, assistant editor for Rite Publishing;
My Trade Thread and My Reference Thread; Winner of WBC IV, IX and XIII; Rule #0: bshugg is always right! | |
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MuscledDestroyer
Sergeant
435 Posts
Prospect Park, Pa
| | 09/11/2006 10:02 PM |
| | Dragon Down Grotto is a real pain to play on. It really is about firepower. | |
Champion of Grape Juice. Its delicious. | |
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Janos M.
Underboss
1015 Posts
Hamburg / GErmany
| | 09/12/2006 1:53 AM |
| I like this Ballista Variant:
Arcane Ballista 48
4x WarWeaver 132 / 180
Cleric of Yondalla 14 / 194
2x Human Commoner 6 / 200
with 4x Dimension Hops you son't have that much problems if you don't get your map.
(Btw. first round Dimension Hop is need on some maps to make sure that your Commoner get VP in that round)
And Commoners attacking for +1 and dishing out 10 damage are nice. | |
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Myth Master Jr
Sergeant
418 Posts
| | 09/12/2006 6:09 AM |
| Posted By Janos M. on 09/12/2006 1:53 AM
I like this Ballista Variant:
Arcane Ballista 48
4x WarWeaver 132 / 180
Cleric of Yondalla 14 / 194
2x Human Commoner 6 / 200
What do you do if your opponent doesn't have any large based figures? It seems kinda light on the attack power side.
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Calicles
Sneak
51 Posts
| | 09/12/2006 11:13 AM |
| | It sounds funny, but one Graycloak Ranger can outgun a Ballista on the Dragondown Grotto map. With the "hide" special ability, the Ballista cannot target the Graycloak. The Graycloak can sit on the edge of a forest square and fire away with total impunity.  So a Ballista band with no melee support could lose to a singe 15pt CG archer. Yeah CG !!!. Go Elves !!!. | |
Champion of Sehanine Moonbow | |
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Myth Master Jr
Sergeant
418 Posts
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Sirohk
Commander
3938 Posts
USA
| | 09/12/2006 2:42 PM |
| Posted By Calicles on 09/12/2006 11:13 AM
It sounds funny, but one Graycloak Ranger can outgun a Ballista on the Dragondown Grotto map. With the "hide" special ability, the Ballista cannot target the Graycloak. The Graycloak can sit on the edge of a forest square and fire away with total impunity.  So a Ballista band with no melee support could lose to a singe 15pt CG archer. Yeah CG !!!. Go Elves !!!.
That would be a funny game to watch. Probably very long too. I would imagine that the Greycloak CG warband would win on points as the LG Arcane Ballista warband without melee support would have no way of attacking.Â
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Sirohk, the Bard of Heartstone
Knight of the Rahshasa's
And Crusader of the Zakya, Ak'chazar, Naztharune, and Naityan Rakshasa's | |
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tundrin
Sergeant
424 Posts
Randolph, NJ
| | 09/13/2006 6:11 AM |
| This is the reason I started another thread about LG "beaters". IMHO the AB band needs something/someone that is able to go out and at least threaten to smack someone that just sits out there. Even a couple Sacred Watchers, to draw away fire (figuratively or literally) and base another ranged attacker/commander / knock someone off a VA.
He cant be too expensive (depending on if you inclulde another commander - ex CoDA doesnt leave much room - but gives a great chance to win map and side init).
Main question is how extreme the band is - all ranged (ex the 4 WW + AB) or at elast some melee threat.
With AB, Couatl, CoDA you still have room for 3 sacred watchers (for example) or a bigger hitter and fodder. | |
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Janos M.
Underboss
1015 Posts
Hamburg / GErmany
| | 09/13/2006 6:35 AM |
| You never saw that warband in action, didn't you?
I played this warband a lot... | |
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tundrin
Sergeant
424 Posts
Randolph, NJ
| | 09/13/2006 10:01 AM |
| Correct - I have not seen the WWx4 + AB. I am not saying it wouldnt win and it would be difficult to play against, I just tend to make warbands that have some sort of back door / plan B incase I face a coincidental "anti-my band" team.Â
Though a lot of the DDM skill is designing a band with as little chance as possible for that to happen.
Would you get more bang with a Couatl + 14pts of something in place of 2 war weavers? The Couatl can give 6 SS's if needed and its resistances can potect the AB from belchers etc. (belcherx2 orc champx2Â was my only loss with any AB band - in that once I just had WWeaver and no Couatl) | |
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Myth Master Jr
Sergeant
418 Posts
| | 09/13/2006 11:33 AM |
| | And as I stated above, what happens when you fight a band w/ no large based figures? The power of the AB is greatly reduced and in my opinion, easy to get around. | |
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Ack
Underboss
1476 Posts
| | 09/13/2006 11:55 AM |
| I think I can answer the original poster -
Will the Arcane Ballista now Dominate? No. | |
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Sirohk
Commander
3938 Posts
USA
| | 09/16/2006 7:30 AM |
| Posted By Ack on 09/13/2006 11:55 AM I think I can answer the original poster - Will the Arcane Ballista now Dominate? No.
I agree with Ack. I don't think it can dominate. The main reason is winning map initiative and a few bad matchups.Â
Even with a +7 to initiative from a CoDA or SoH in the warband, loosing map ini does happen.Â
Bad matchups include warabnds with:
- area effect spells / abilities that can take out the ballista support (fireball, breath weapons)
- flying critters (Tordek, HH, Large Green Dragon to name a few)
- incorporal creatures (versus Sacred Watchers can be an excercise in futilitiy)
I do like an Arcane Ballista ior two n 500 pt Epic play with many of the warbands listed in the previous posts. Combined with Epic Tordek (who is a beast in Epic), and its even worse if he is flying, the Ballista is a nice addition.Â
Thus, can the Arcane Ballista dominate, possibly, but will it, IMO I don't think it can.Â
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Sirohk, the Bard of Heartstone
Knight of the Rahshasa's
And Crusader of the Zakya, Ak'chazar, Naztharune, and Naityan Rakshasa's | |
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