JugglerVR
Sneak
123 Posts
    
 | | 08/22/2006 4:20 PM |
| so, is it me, or does this rule need to evaporate? Seriously, EVERY GoL
huge sucks because of the save=10 crap. I was looking at the costs, and
most of the pieces don't even seem worth their points if their save WAS
equal to their level.
am i way off-base here?
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Vrecknidj
Warlord
10493 Posts
United States
| | 08/22/2006 6:25 PM |
| This has been discussed to death.
Interestingly, check the other Huges and other Epics, and see how many of them are much higher than level 10. Not too many.
But, it would be nice to see a few of them (Huge Gold, Huge Red, to name two) have something more like Save = 13.
Dave
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Knowledge Arcana editor issues 5-9, Phoenix Lore Magazine editor, assistant editor for Rite Publishing;
My Trade Thread and My Reference Thread; Winner of WBC IV, IX and XIII; Rule #0: bshugg is always right! | |
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SneakyJoeKDB
Sergeant
593 Posts
Utah
| | 08/22/2006 11:12 PM |
| | Yes it blows! Out with the old, and in with the new! | |
"Like a thief in the Night"
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Wrackspawn
ChristopherGroves
Warlord
6093 Posts
| | 08/23/2006 5:31 AM |
| How much does it blow? Does it blow as much as the Blue Wyrmling not being immune to electricity? Does it blow as much as the countless of other figures that are simply not useful in 200 constructed? Like Vrecknidj sais, this has been discussed to death. The question is what realy reason does WOTC have for changing it? It will not make more figures playable, it will just change the mix of figures that are played. Where I do agree that I'd like to see the Huge Red and Huge Gold more playable, I'm not sure it's worth a wholesale change to SAVE=10. I'd also like to see oozes not be affected by stench, I'd like to know why the Trog Zombie smells better than a living Trog, I'd like the Halfling Outrider errated w/ Mounted Melee attack, spring attack or some other ability to make it useful. What about all those creatures who, after SAVE=10 was no longer printed in the special abilities section, had their level reduced from the RPG side anyway. Should they get a level/save bump? etc. These are tongue-in-cheek examples, but you see the point. Why should it be changed and not anything else? It doesn't hurt the game as is ... does it? | |
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jacksonm
Warlord
5560 Posts
River City
| | 08/23/2006 5:52 AM |
| Well the Trog Zombie's stench glands are dead and no longer producing stench, although he probably does smell just as bad. 
Save 10 is sucky, in particular for the huges but beyond releasing new
cards for them in retailer kits I'm not sure what can be done.
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Skyscraper
Sergeant
659 Posts
Montreal
| | 08/23/2006 7:49 AM |
| Chris, the question is: how would you like for *your* save to be equal
to 10, hmmm? I have the impression that you are so totally lacking
empathy towards the huge red and gold dragons here. They have feelings
too. What happens when their wyrmlings, at kindergarden, get
provoked by some hill giant boy schoolyard bully on the matter that
their father is a save-10 wimp, uh? How are they supposed to answer to
that, you tell me?
Sky
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The wise man doubts often. The ignorant, sometimes. The fool, never. | |
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warty_nosed_goblin
Underboss
1384 Posts
| | 08/23/2006 9:18 AM |
| Breathweapon Breathweapon Breathweapon...problem solved. | |
Call me: W.N. Gobo!
originally posted by grim:
While he is clearly insane, he does have a point. | |
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Pauper
Sergeant
508 Posts
| | 08/23/2006 9:55 AM |
| [QUOTE]JugglerVR wrote
Seriously, EVERY GoL huge sucks because of the save=10 crap.[/QUOTE] I submit that the Treant sucking has nothing to do with Save=10. A lot of folks talk about the Huge Gold and Huge Red, but I'd argue that the figure who'd improve most if Save=10 were eliminated is the Nightwalker; level 21, AC 32, and 180 fearless, Undead hit points? Tough to deal with that. | |
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Knight of Argenis
Corim Danex
Warlord
6842 Posts
West Valley City, Utah
| | 08/23/2006 11:28 AM |
| [QUOTE]Pauper wrote
I submit that the Treant sucking has nothing to do with Save=10.[/QUOTE]
LOL
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"Look to God and live." Alma 37:47
Vindicated Champ of Hippogriff (Arcadian Hippogriff) and Uncommon Horse | |
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Wrackspawn
ChristopherGroves
Warlord
6093 Posts
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Vrecknidj
Warlord
10493 Posts
United States
| | 08/23/2006 1:07 PM |
| [QUOTE]ChristopherGroves wrote
Well since my save is about 3 right now, save=10 would be a huge improvement  [/QUOTE]Suffering from a low-level problem, or is it just a huge penalty modifier?
Dave
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Knowledge Arcana editor issues 5-9, Phoenix Lore Magazine editor, assistant editor for Rite Publishing;
My Trade Thread and My Reference Thread; Winner of WBC IV, IX and XIII; Rule #0: bshugg is always right! | |
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Orion72
Underboss
1917 Posts
| | 08/23/2006 1:12 PM |
| [QUOTE]Vrecknidj wrote
Suffering from a low-level problem, or is it just a huge penalty modifier?
[/QUOTE] Stench. I'll stand downwind from now on, sowwy :( | | | |
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IanB
Commander
3112 Posts
| | 08/23/2006 4:59 PM |
| Save = 10 is built in to the cost. The only difference now is they have a more graduated save progression for huge figures. Check the mountain troll with his save of 9 and compare that to the fomorian. The new figures are costed using the same logic as the old. | |
Anson on WotC boards | |
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Bert the Troll
Commander
3964 Posts
Adelaide
| | 08/23/2006 7:26 PM |
| [QUOTE]Pauper wrote
JugglerVR wrote
Seriously, EVERY GoL huge sucks because of the save=10 crap. |
I submit that the Treant sucking has nothing to do with Save=10. A lot of folks talk about the Huge Gold and Huge Red, but I'd argue that the figure who'd improve most if Save=10 were eliminated is the Nightwalker; level 21, AC 32, and 180 fearless, Undead hit points? Tough to deal with that. [/QUOTE] I think the Fomorian would be the most broken improved with a save 10, though yeah, nightwalker would be mean too. Treants would actually improve if thier save =10. | |
"Mutton yesterday, mutton today, and blimey, if it don't look like mutton again tomorrer." Bert the Troll - The Hobbit
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MAURIZIO
Sergeant
960 Posts
Lima, Perú
| | 10/14/2006 12:09 AM |
| | I Think the fomorian need to have the same save of his level, but the cost make it be that way!!! I a pitty for GOL huges, that make it not playable (or less playable) then the WotDQ Huges. | |
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"DnD teaches you a valuable lesson, always loot the bodies of your dead enemies"
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MarioCleanstuff
Warrior
325 Posts
San Diego, CA
| | 10/14/2006 1:51 PM |
| | Even if Save=10 was eliminated, something would have to keep the creatures' levels in check. Something just seems wrong about the idea of a Huge Red having save 19 and the Colossal Red having only 17. | |
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MAURIZIO
Sergeant
960 Posts
Lima, Perú
| | 10/14/2006 5:49 PM |
| Posted By MarioCleanstuff on 10/14/2006 1:51 PM
Even if Save=10 was eliminated, something would have to keep the creatures' levels in check. Something just seems wrong about the idea of a Huge Red having save 19 and the Colossal Red having only 17.
Maybe you can say the Colossal Red Dragon was Level Drained XD | |
Againts the Giants Called Shot: Cattie Bri.
Dungeon of Dread Called Shot: Cockatrice.
Todas las batallas en la vida sirven para enseñarnos algo, inclusive aquellas que perdemos. Paulo Coehlo
"DnD teaches you a valuable lesson, always loot the bodies of your dead enemies"
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jgsugden
Commander
4320 Posts
Walnut Creek, CA
| | 10/14/2006 6:02 PM |
| Posted By IanB on 08/23/2006 4:59 PM Save = 10 is built in to the cost. The only difference now is they have a more graduated save progression for huge figures. Check the mountain troll with his save of 9 and compare that to the fomorian. The new figures are costed using the same logic as the old. | |
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Nobody Important
Sergeant
718 Posts
| | 10/14/2006 6:38 PM |
| At low levels the Save = Level model works reasonably well but it starts to break down as levels rise. I agree that not all the GoL minis with Save=10 should have it but simply using there LV (HD) isn't right either. What I figure the saves should be based on the RPG stats.
HGD - 15
HRD - 14
Nightwalker -14
Storm Giant - 13
Glabrezu -12
For almost everything else Save=10 is actually an improvement on what they probably should really have. Giants may have great FORT saves but usually have terrible REF and WILL saves to lower the average so the Cloud Giant is about right and the Fomorian actually gains with Save=10. Of course some earlier units should have a LOWER save than they actually do.
While it is very unlikely I'd like to see corrected stat cards for some of the old minis to reflect what the stats should be instead of what they are. They would function just like the new epic additions do now and would leave the old cards valid should someone want to use them. The first minis on my short list would be all the true dragons as dragons of the same size should be roughly the same strength.
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MarioCleanstuff
Warrior
325 Posts
San Diego, CA
| | 10/14/2006 8:58 PM |
| Posted By Nobody Important on 10/14/2006 6:38 PM
The first minis on my short list would be all the true dragons as dragons of the same size should be roughly the same strength.
I can't wait to tell a Wyrm White Dragon that it should be roughly the same strength as an Ancient Gold Dragon!I get what you mean, here. I actually agree, as long as they keep the power levels of the dragons about where they are in the RPG. Don't want the two aforementioned dragons to be on even footing, do we? | |
Completed trades: Brenigin, desiderata, HockeyFan, MikeyChraal, Raland, GuJiaXian | |
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jgsugden
Commander
4320 Posts
Walnut Creek, CA
| | 10/15/2006 8:37 AM |
| D&D =/= DDM.
In D&D, dragons of the same size may be vastly different in power. Further, 'more powerful' dragon types tend to be larger at any given age category than similarly aged dragons of other colors. Accordingly, the more powerful dragons types tend to be younger when they are a certain size than a 'weaker' dragon type. This results in the 'weaker' dragons of a certain size being stronger than the 'more powerful' dragons of the same size. As an example: a large red dragon is between CRs 5 and 12. A large blue dragon is between CRs 11 and 13.
In DDM, they decided to preserve the relative power structure of the dragon sizes by making the 'more powerful' dragon colors the most powerful despite the differences in ages that are supposed to occur. They've had to adjust this a bit as they've learned about pricing minis, but the intention, as stated back in the Archfiends era, was to have the Red be the most powerful of the evil dragons at any given size in DDM, despite the fact that many of the other dragons should/could be more powerful than the red at that size.
Thinking that things in DDM should closely follow the trends in D&D is a recipe for disappointment. The skirmish stats of a figure do not need to follow the D&D stats in order for the piece to have a great sculpt, be great in RPG and be great in skirmish. WotC clearly tries to make the skirmish stats reflect the RPG stats, but if they have to choose between making a figure's skirmish stats a highly accurate reflection of the D&D stats or making it 'make sense' and be fun in skirmish, they've gone with the second path. | |
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Orion72
Underboss
1917 Posts
| | 10/15/2006 12:24 PM |
| I don't care what type of critter it is, or what its RPG stats are; if it costs more than half of your army, it better have a save higher than 10.
Frankly, I wouldn't mind seeing the entire Giants of Legend set get restatted. I know, wishful thinking and all that. | | | |
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Nobody Important
Sergeant
718 Posts
| | 10/15/2006 12:46 PM |
| Posted By MarioCleanstuff on 10/14/2006 8:58 PM Posted By Nobody Important on 10/14/2006 6:38 PM
The first minis on my short list would be all the true dragons as dragons of the same size should be roughly the same strength.
I can't wait to tell a Wyrm White Dragon that it should be roughly the same strength as an Ancient Gold Dragon! I get what you mean, here. I actually agree, as long as they keep the power levels of the dragons about where they are in the RPG. Don't want the two aforementioned dragons to be on even footing, do we?
A Gargantuan White Wyrm should be less powerful than an Ancient Gold. In RPG anyway a White Great Wyrm is no stronger than ANY Gold Dragon of the same size with it matching an Old Gold but being weaker than an Ancient Gold.
Even based only on size the poor White Dragon almost always comes out on the bottom end. Strangly the Copper Dragon can have the highest CR for a dragon of any given size although the low end Copper isn't as strong as the older Metalics at a given size.
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Knight of Argenis
Corim Danex
Warlord
6842 Posts
West Valley City, Utah
| | 10/15/2006 3:35 PM |
| | I didn't think that save=10 affected the nightwalker very much, since it's fearless. What am I missing? | |
"Look to God and live." Alma 37:47
Vindicated Champ of Hippogriff (Arcadian Hippogriff) and Uncommon Horse | |
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Bert the Troll
Commander
3964 Posts
Adelaide
| | 10/15/2006 3:37 PM |
| Posted By Corim Danex on 10/15/2006 3:35 PM
I didn't think that save=10 affected the nightwalker very much, since it's fearless. What am I missing?
Turn undead? TK into a pit, other nasty save or elimated effects.
(oh and moving thread into skirmish) | |
"Mutton yesterday, mutton today, and blimey, if it don't look like mutton again tomorrer." Bert the Troll - The Hobbit
Semi-Secret sig business: "In the age of the internet attaching a famous name to your personal opinion to give more weight to it is a very valid strategy." - Benjamin Franklin
Champion of Epic Lolth, Orcus, & Demogorgon and bring us Asmodeus! | |
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Low Key
Underboss
1231 Posts
| | 10/16/2006 12:16 AM |
| Posted By Bert the Troll on 10/15/2006 3:37 PM Posted By Corim Danex on 10/15/2006 3:35 PM
I didn't think that save=10 affected the nightwalker very much, since it's fearless. What am I missing? Turn undead? TK into a pit, other nasty save or elimated effects. (oh and moving thread into skirmish)
Turn Undead looks at the level of the creature, not the save. And since Nighty is level 21, even Chill Touch will fail. | |
Champion of the Sarrukh | |
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JugglerVR
Sneak
123 Posts
| | 10/16/2006 4:04 AM |
| Posted By Low Key on 10/16/2006 12:16 AM Turn Undead looks at the level of the creature, not the save. And since Nighty is level 21, even Chill Touch will fail.
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Orion72
Underboss
1917 Posts
| | 10/16/2006 6:07 AM |
| Actually, it's true. The Nightwalker can't be Turned by anything less than Turn Undead 21, which currently doesn't exist. It would make such a save at Level 10 (+ Commander, if any).
A Nightwalker can't be Turned, but it can be Deadly Rended (good luck hitting AC 32 twice). Actually, pushing it into a pit has better odds - DC 17 (19 with Naga) against the slide (or SR roll from Rakshasa), then save 15 against falling into the pit.
Even though most of these odds are slim, I would think that just on principle a 400 pt critter would have a save higher than 10. | | | |
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Chairman7w
Sergeant
484 Posts
| | 10/16/2006 7:25 AM |
| Hahahahah!!! I can't believe it, I logged in and this thread is still alive?
What's the big deal? Save 10 sucks, we all know it. Nobody uses those pieces as a result. Move on.
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Dr. Simon: A phrase that's encoded in her brain, that makes her fall asleep. If I speak the words, "Eta...
Jayne: Well don't say it!
Zoë: It only works on her, Jayne. | |
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iluvxtina
Underboss
1501 Posts
Spain
| | 10/16/2006 7:42 AM |
| | The problem with CoL huges is bigger than the save=10.Simply,if you have another mini with the same advantages but lesser cost,you will never select the high costed huge.Indeed if save=10 would be removed,they will be much better but I think huges continue not being played.Even the new huges (except bahamut,tiamat and bluespawn)are useless in skirmish if you want a tier 1 warband.It is stupid save=10....more stupid than difficult ability. | |
LOVE THIS GIRL | |
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Low Key
Underboss
1231 Posts
| | 10/16/2006 7:51 AM |
| Posted By Chairman7w on 10/16/2006 7:25 AM
Hahahahah!!! I can't believe it, I logged in and this thread is still alive?
What's the big deal? Save 10 sucks, we all know it. Nobody uses those pieces as a result. Move on.
Someone performed some threadnomancy, so we can all beat on this dead horse again.
Save = 10 sucks, but still, only 11 creatures are affected by it and you could argue that only 5-6 of them actually suffers because of it. Even if save = 10 was removed, I'd doubt people would play the likes of Chuul, Fiendish T-Rex or Glabrezu more often. | |
Champion of the Sarrukh | |
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Ryoga
Underboss
1124 Posts
Coquimbo - Chile / Italia
| | 10/16/2006 10:03 AM |
| | The cost of old Huges minis is calculed with Save = 10, if you eliminate the Save=10 rule, units that have this SA have more power for less points. Save = 10 will continue until dead...... | |
Dealing with new life... new country and life without DDM :(
Some day I will be back in board | |
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JugglerVR
Sneak
123 Posts
| | 10/16/2006 3:10 PM |
| Posted By Ryoga on 10/16/2006 10:03 AM
The
cost of old Huges minis is calculed with Save = 10, if you eliminate
the Save=10 rule, units that have this SA have more power for less
points. Save = 10 will continue until dead......
more power
for fewer points... most of the save=10 creatures SUCK. how many do you
see in the tournament scene? none. how many would be in the scene if
the rule went away? 1 or 3? that's enough to justify it to me. "hmm,
save=10 nerfs these creatures, and if it goes away, they're *almost*
aggressively costed, and the tournament scene gets a little more
diverse."
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IanB
Commander
3112 Posts
| | 10/16/2006 3:47 PM |
| Posted By JugglerVR on 10/16/2006 3:10 PM more power for fewer points... most of the save=10 creatures SUCK. how many do you see in the tournament scene? none. how many would be in the scene if the rule went away? 1 or 3? that's enough to justify it to me. "hmm, save=10 nerfs these creatures, and if it goes away, they're *almost* aggressively costed, and the tournament scene gets a little more diverse."
Errata should never, ever be used for game balancing. Never ever! It breaks one of the most central rules of collectible game design, and opens up a huge can of worms. If you change save = 10 on the GoL huges, why not change the cost of the drider? Why not change the cost of the Druid of Obad Hai, to make IT playable? Etc., etc., on into infinity.
On top of that, for the most part the same GoL pieces that were playable when GoL came out are playable now. For the ones that are not (for example, nightwalker), the major blow to their playability has very little to do with their saving throw value, and a lot to do with multi-archmage bands. It only takes 9 empowered acid arrows to kill a nightwalker, and no saving throws are involved anywhere in that process.
Finally, the save=10 rule is effectively *still in the game*. The mountain troll has a save of 9. The sorcerer on black dragon has a save of 10. The purple worm? 10. Epic slaughterstone eviscerator, displacer beast pack lord, tundra scout, huge fire elemental, bluespawn godslayer? 10, 10, 10, 10 and 10. Epic Tordek? Save = 10 with the dwarf special Save +4 ability. They just don't spell it out with a special note on the card anymore. It is still there. Some pieces just get a special boost, that is *reflected in their costs*.
This argument should have died months and months ago, in my opinion. | |
Anson on WotC boards | |
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Ryoga
Underboss
1124 Posts
Coquimbo - Chile / Italia
| | 10/17/2006 10:25 AM |
| | Amen thats all.... | |
Dealing with new life... new country and life without DDM :(
Some day I will be back in board | |
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Chairman7w
Sergeant
484 Posts
| | 10/17/2006 10:32 AM |
| (Chairman screams "CLEAR!!!!" and holds defibrilator on chest of thread. THMP!!! "I've got a heartbeat!!!!")
I honestly don't know why anyone would care - we've had what, 4? 5? sets come out since GoL, and a new set coming out in two weeks... Who gives a sh...???? | |
Dr. Simon: A phrase that's encoded in her brain, that makes her fall asleep. If I speak the words, "Eta...
Jayne: Well don't say it!
Zoë: It only works on her, Jayne. | |
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Bert the Troll
Commander
3964 Posts
Adelaide
| | 10/18/2006 3:58 PM |
| Posted By Chairman7w on 10/17/2006 10:32 AM
(Chairman screams "CLEAR!!!!" and holds defibrilator on chest of thread. THMP!!! "I've got a heartbeat!!!!")
I honestly don't know why anyone would care - we've had what, 4? 5? sets come out since GoL, and a new set coming out in two weeks... Who gives a sh...????
Its a public board. People are allowed to dicuss whatever they want as long as its polite. As people, (yourself included) are still reading and posting in a thread marked save-10, I guess some people do care. | |
"Mutton yesterday, mutton today, and blimey, if it don't look like mutton again tomorrer." Bert the Troll - The Hobbit
Semi-Secret sig business: "In the age of the internet attaching a famous name to your personal opinion to give more weight to it is a very valid strategy." - Benjamin Franklin
Champion of Epic Lolth, Orcus, & Demogorgon and bring us Asmodeus! | |
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Bert the Troll
Commander
3964 Posts
Adelaide
| | 10/18/2006 4:03 PM |
| Posted By Low Key on 10/16/2006 12:16 AM Posted By Bert the Troll on 10/15/2006 3:37 PM Posted By Corim Danex on 10/15/2006 3:35 PM
I didn't think that save=10 affected the nightwalker very much, since it's fearless. What am I missing? Turn undead? TK into a pit, other nasty save or elimated effects. (oh and moving thread into skirmish) Turn Undead looks at the level of the creature, not the save. And since Nighty is level 21, even Chill Touch will fail.
Opps. I meant Control Undead via Lich Necromancer. With save = 10 it has a less remote chance of working (its DC 14).
Storm archers are a big threat to Night walker too imo & anoher non save=10 why NW isnt played. | |
"Mutton yesterday, mutton today, and blimey, if it don't look like mutton again tomorrer." Bert the Troll - The Hobbit
Semi-Secret sig business: "In the age of the internet attaching a famous name to your personal opinion to give more weight to it is a very valid strategy." - Benjamin Franklin
Champion of Epic Lolth, Orcus, & Demogorgon and bring us Asmodeus! | |
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