iluvxtina
Underboss
1501 Posts
    
Spain
 | | 10/04/2006 6:24 AM |
| | -I cannot believe it:a multi-archmage warband winnig an epic tournament.At least 50% of the challengers use bahamut/tiamat warbands and my warband was a bahamut+spellscale warband.The player with the archmages obliterated three tiamat warbands (mordenkainen sword+dual activation =win the match).It is hard to believe for me because I have always though bahamut/tiamat are the only choices in order to win an epic tournament (here,all the epic tournamants have been taken only by them until now).It,s the only one titan CG mini but.....really powerful if lucky.....really.Which is your experience about this? | |
LOVE THIS GIRL | |
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jooquase
Warrior
272 Posts
| | 10/04/2006 7:20 AM |
| | just a reminder that mordy-sword + dual activation does not need to be so powerfull : you are not obligated to use the second activation, you can just activate once per round and make Tiamat last much longer. | |
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SneakyJoeKDB
Sergeant
593 Posts
Utah
| | 10/04/2006 7:38 AM |
| Archmages arent dead, they are one of the competitive builds in the current epic meta. My knowledge points to the following builds as Epic tier one:
Bahamut
Epic Tordek
Behoders
Archmages
Storm Archers
I wouldnt add Tiamat to the mix, I find Tiamat very lacking and it cant seem to handle most of the above bands. Bahamut Will beat most bands if it gets Teleport Temple. However, Epic Tordek makes Bahamut pay if he tries to use his first round breath on TT. On maps such as dragon down grotto, AMs, Beholders, and Storm Archers will beat Bahamut more than lose. | |
"Like a thief in the Night"
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Low Key
Underboss
1231 Posts
| | 10/04/2006 8:04 AM |
| | Well, the Multi-Archamge is designed to take pretty much any titan based warband down. The sheer amount of Mordenkainens Swords makes anything that costs over 250p cry. Losing over a half of your warband by just activating is nasty. | |
Champion of the Sarrukh | |
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Vrecknidj
Warlord
10493 Posts
United States
| | 10/04/2006 8:39 AM |
| Yep. I'm liking where the epic play is going. I remember a while back at least one of the designers said something along the lines of "there's going to be a lot of interest in epic play soon," and he was right.
Today, you have to plan on being able to deal with:
1) Multi-Archmage
2) Bahamut
3) Tordek
4) Multi-Beholder
5) Dual Storm Archer, Crow Shaman
And still you have to deal with the outlier bands, such as Tiamat, the possibility of a strongly-led Fomorian band, Huge Gold, etc. Thanks to the prevalence of dragons, you aren't going to see many dual-LSD bands anymore.
But, there is enough of a mix out there right now, that you really have to be prepared.
Dave | |
Knowledge Arcana editor issues 5-9, Phoenix Lore Magazine editor, assistant editor for Rite Publishing;
My Trade Thread and My Reference Thread; Winner of WBC IV, IX and XIII; Rule #0: bshugg is always right! | |
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dolcet
Sneak
61 Posts
| | 10/04/2006 9:22 AM |
| | I used the tordek + storm archer band by Sneakyjoe to beat a dual achmage/eleminster band last time i hope i do as well this time. | |
I reject your reality & subsitute my own.
An object at rest can not be stopped! | |
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Damien the Bloodfeaster
Sergeant
885 Posts
Portland, OR
| | 10/04/2006 1:30 PM |
| I would think dual Epic Griffon Cavalry would also be a band to contend with. The ability to inflict 200+ damage in two activations is brutal.
I haven't played in any epic tourneys recently though, so I don't know for sure. | | | |
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Knight of the
Round Table
Thenameless
Warlord
12507 Posts
The Fortress of Solitude
| | 10/04/2006 2:25 PM |
| | Don't be too surprised when Archmages beat either Bahamut or Tiamat. They are designed to take down titans. | |
Over 270 successful online DDM trades. | |
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iluvxtina
Underboss
1501 Posts
Spain
| | 10/04/2006 2:57 PM |
| | I have always seen archmages in 200 points mode and always being defeated by orc champions and githzerai warbands easily.I have always known he works much better in epic play but I thought the resulst would be the same:defeated by bahamut easily.That is my surprise.I think it is a matter of luck because this guy faced three tiamat warbands (easy kill with mordenkainen sword) but no bahamut warbands (I think).But I must admit archmage is the best CG mini (better than frenzied). | |
LOVE THIS GIRL | |
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Temysry
Sergeant
518 Posts
| | 10/04/2006 3:04 PM |
| We play sanctioned Epic tournaments every two weeks here in Halifax and I managed to take first place at the last two. One was using Epic El + 2 Archmages and the most recent was with dual storm archers.
When I played the archmages, 2 of my opponents played Bahamut and the other played Epic Tordek. The Bahamut games were certainly closer, but with Epic El's survivability, it's just too easy to get the swords off and wait for the big guy to keel over.
I'm pretty sure that Tiamat has never won an Epic tournament here besides the pre-release - he really isn't much of a threat to the top Epic bands out there. Luckily for me, no one here owns 5 beholders to shut down the archmages. | |
A Proud Gelatinous Dude
www.gelatinousdudes.com
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Sirohk
Commander
3938 Posts
USA
| | 10/05/2006 3:58 AM |
| I ran x4 Archmage warband in a recent Epic tournament and won with it. Didn't face any Titans warbands, but the x4 Archamges is a very tough warband.Â
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Sirohk, the Bard of Heartstone
Knight of the Rahshasa's
And Crusader of the Zakya, Ak'chazar, Naztharune, and Naityan Rakshasa's | |
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iluvxtina
Underboss
1501 Posts
Spain
| | 10/05/2006 4:36 AM |
| | Is this piece the best in the whole game? | |
LOVE THIS GIRL | |
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Low Key
Underboss
1231 Posts
| | 10/05/2006 4:56 AM |
| Posted By iluvxtina on 10/05/2006 4:36 AM
Is this piece the best in the whole game?
There is no "Best piece in the game".
Some pieces might be considered best at what they do (Like the Couatl being the best LG commander, etc), but the game is too diverse for a single piece to be dominating enough to be the "best". Everything has counters or weakpoints. For example, in Epic, multi-Beholder will make the Archmages cry. | |
Champion of the Sarrukh | |
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hub
Sneak
99 Posts
| | 10/05/2006 6:07 AM |
| I love the AM. But personally, I find it rather cheesy running that many of them. Of course I am not playing for points either. I am just a grey-beard employing experience against the younger, more aggressive generation. I've seen a dual Beholder whoop the quad. I have come close with my own version of Tordek, a bit more tweaking and I will.
2-cents. | |
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iluvxtina
Underboss
1501 Posts
Spain
| | 10/05/2006 6:07 AM |
| | Yes,that is true but always will be a single creature which will be the best in general terms.Along the last times the orc champion was the best mini for his cost because everybody agreed in that and the championship winners used him a lot (much more than other minis).Now, It happens the same with githzerai monk.But it is truth that the game is diverse and hard to say which is the best mini | |
LOVE THIS GIRL | |
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Temysry
Sergeant
518 Posts
| | 10/05/2006 9:31 AM |
| As more and more pieces become available to players, the number of competative warbands increase. It has been mentioned many times on these boards how playing DDM at a very competative level is much like playing rock-paper-scissors due to good and bad match ups. I think this is a pretty good analogy and it's something that WoTC is certainly striving for. So - the question of their being a "best" mini is much like asking which is better: rock, paper or scissors. Besides, even when making a warband, you don't just ask yourself: I have 98 points available in a CG warband, what is the best piece to use? Clearly it depends on what the other 102 points were spent on. | |
A Proud Gelatinous Dude
www.gelatinousdudes.com
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Sirohk
Commander
3938 Posts
USA
| | 10/05/2006 5:49 PM |
| The Archamge is definately not THE best piece in the game. But he is a very good one, both in 200 and 500 pt games. How many pieces can we actually say about that (not considering regular and Epic stats, ie Tordek)?Â
Keep in mind that there is more than one piece in a warband, even if you run x4 Archmages in Epic. It will always be IMO a combination of the following, and not necessarily in this order:
1) The warband, including all support pieces
2) Skill of the player, including how well practiced on is with that warband
3) Map choice
4) The roll of the d20 (or luck)
All 4 of the above will play into whether one or more particular pieces are good or great minis. But on any given day any given warband or "piece" can win a game. Sometimes all it takes is one bad die roll.Â
Cheers.
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Sirohk, the Bard of Heartstone
Knight of the Rahshasa's
And Crusader of the Zakya, Ak'chazar, Naztharune, and Naityan Rakshasa's | |
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Chad the DragonLordofAiur
Underboss
1085 Posts
Southeast PA
| | 10/06/2006 10:44 AM |
| I agree with SneakyJoeKDB's list for the most part. In my own experiences and playtests I narrowed it down to three bands:
Tier 1
Bahamut
Multiple Mages
Flying Epic Tordek
Tier 2
Multiple Beholders
Epic Storm Archers
Epic Griffon Cavalries
Tiamat
Tier 3
Everything else
I do admit I haven't playtested Multiple Beholders or Griffon Cavalries at all. The Archers I have tested and they are too squishy in tests. Bahamut can beat the mages on TT or with the right support. Flying Epic Tordek can defeat Bahamut with the right support. Multiple Mages can defeat both with the right support. Feel free to state your case for other bands through results that you have seen or heard, not just from theories on paper. | |
Member of Team Amish
3rd Place in 2007 Constructed World Championship
My combined DDM Skirmish record of all games ever played in all formats.
486 - 188 - 4 | |
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tundrin
Sergeant
424 Posts
Randolph, NJ
| | 10/06/2006 11:26 AM |
| Weakness of Flying Tordek to AoB is the Aura of fear -5.
In general AoB fails moral on a 1. Out of command, tordek will fail on 10 or 11 (thats 50%!!) Even with a good commander (5) he still fails 25%. (As I painfully learned last night). And when he is fly8, he has to be pretty far away form an exit to even have a chance to rally.
Typical back up for Tordek is the mephling and the Couatl, both of which are quick to die in epic. The Couatl expecially if there is an Arc Ballisate involved.
Benefit of mages is that your points are spread out over several pieces, so if one or even two go down you can still do well without taking out the enemy titan.
I expect to play agianst a multimage band this weekend (wink wink) so I will let you know - hahaha. | |
Champs 2007 Top 16, Team Amish Class of 2007
Seeking Northern NJ DDM'ers - "There can be only one" (I hope not)
Champion of the Doppleganger | |
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Sirohk
Commander
3938 Posts
USA
| | 10/07/2006 5:32 AM |
| Posted By Chad the DragonLordofAiur on 10/06/2006 10:44 AM
I agree with SneakyJoeKDB's list for the most part. In my own experiences and playtests I narrowed it down to three bands:
Tier 1
Bahamut
Multiple Mages
Flying Epic Tordek
Tier 2
Multiple Beholders
Epic Storm Archers
Epic Griffon Cavalries
Tiamat
Tier 3
Everything else
I do admit I haven't playtested Multiple Beholders or Griffon Cavalries at all. The Archers I have tested and they are too squishy in tests. Bahamut can beat the mages on TT or with the right support. Flying Epic Tordek can defeat Bahamut with the right support. Multiple Mages can defeat both with the right support. Feel free to state your case for other bands through results that you have seen or heard, not just from theories on paper.
Nice list Chad and I agree with your rankings. I would include with the Epic Tordek the use of the Arcane Ballista. It's sort of what makes using a flying Epic Tordek worth it.Â
Its funny, none of the following seem to be tier 1/2 or even 3 in 500 pt Epic play:
Epic CE Warbands
Epic Death Slaad
Epic Blackguard on Nightmare
Epic Hextor
Any of the "old" Huges from GoL
Very interesting indeed.Â
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Sirohk, the Bard of Heartstone
Knight of the Rahshasa's
And Crusader of the Zakya, Ak'chazar, Naztharune, and Naityan Rakshasa's | |
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Low Key
Underboss
1231 Posts
| | 10/07/2006 5:36 AM |
| | I'm starting to think that WotDQ sort of hurt the Epic-meta. Bahamut, Tiamat, Tordek, Storm Archers, Griffon Cavalries, not much room for other warbands there, save the exeption of Mages and Beholders. Epic used to be more diverse before. | |
Champion of the Sarrukh | |
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iluvxtina
Underboss
1501 Posts
Spain
| | 10/07/2006 8:22 AM |
| | Epic slaughterstone eviscerator can do well too and do not forget dual fomorians (I have seen it twice in the last meeting)..But it is true that if you want to win a tournament you need play one of these warbands. | |
LOVE THIS GIRL | |
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Chairman7w
Sergeant
484 Posts
| | 10/07/2006 1:00 PM |
| Posted By iluvxtina on 10/07/2006 8:22 AM
Epic slaughterstone eviscerator can do well too and do not forget dual fomorians (I have seen it twice in the last meeting)..But it is true that if you want to win a tournament you need play one of these warbands.
Hey waitaminute! Aren't you Mr. "Only Tiamat and Bahamut have a chance to win Epic games!" ? Â
I see you've changed your tune, that's a good thing.
And you're right, Dual Epic Slaughterstones are nasty! | |
Dr. Simon: A phrase that's encoded in her brain, that makes her fall asleep. If I speak the words, "Eta...
Jayne: Well don't say it!
Zoë: It only works on her, Jayne. | |
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Void
Sneak
156 Posts
| | 10/07/2006 3:20 PM |
| I think dual flying Godslayers are (at least) tier 2, although I
haven't tested nearly enough yet. They are really metagame-dependant,
though, as they are strong against Bahamut and weak against Storm
Archers.
I also find it sad that there are no viable evil bands besides multiple
Beholders (which nobody around here owns anyway). What would the best
Fomorian build be today, for example? It would probably lose horribly
to Tordek, but maybe not against everything else.
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Chad the DragonLordofAiur
Underboss
1085 Posts
Southeast PA
| | 10/08/2006 7:29 PM |
| | Can someone please post their version of a dual epic slaughterstone build that they think is worthy of consideration? I'd really like to test this out. | |
Member of Team Amish
3rd Place in 2007 Constructed World Championship
My combined DDM Skirmish record of all games ever played in all formats.
486 - 188 - 4 | |
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