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Subject: Why Lillend Will Suck...

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10/19/2006 7:05 AM  
You have a squishy tech piece for 44pts and F10 that uses Beguile and Remove Fear.

If Remove Fear only works after the Morale Check, then it will almost certainly be a waste.

CG is known for it's high speed, mediocre AC and low saves.  Many figs will be off the board before they even get a chance to be Rallied.

The 2nd factor is the fact that everything around that beater (or other character that you want to keep in the fight) will get an AoO as your beater flees, dropping it's HPs even further if not outright killing it.

The good news is that the Lillend uses her activation to Rally your other figure (at least this is how I understand it), so your figure can act right away.

However, Removing Fear on this figure may prove worthless as it auto-rallies, but now must move back in to combat only getting one attack, or risk getting finished off because it'll already be in such poor shape.

I think Beguile will be it's greatest ability against heavy hitters with low saves and F10 will help the Lillend make sure she gets where she's needed, but with a Save involved, it's just not enough.

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Coquimbo - Chile / Italia

10/19/2006 8:17 AM  
greyhaze You are totally agree, but I think that we need to wait until final stats is come. When WoTC were posting previews of Undedark set, I remember very well that they show Troglodite Capatain with "Cfx Followers get +5 Damage when attack enemies affacted by stench" .... a lot of people (And I) have hope with this Cfx..... FINAL STATS = Diferent Cfx???

What happend if "Beguile" special ability have 2 charges and NO DC? maybe can be usefull... Imagine an Aspect of Kord killing his Reptilian friend (Cualt) .....this can be funny.

I think the same thing that greyhaze is proposing, maybe Lillend will be an RPG! mini or an beutifull minis...

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10/19/2006 8:21 AM  
It doesn't seem so bad to me, in epic, you can pair with Elminster and the Beguile will have higher DC and you get two of them, creatures like Epic storm archers rout way too often, if you can get one to auto rally and reactivate the same round is huge. I will defenetly want to have at least one of these.


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10/19/2006 8:22 AM  
Actually,I will take both pieces, succubus and lillend even if they suck.Yes,I think they will suck too like you said but I do not mind this time because these succubus and lillend look like cool...very cool....the most cool looking minis in the whole game for me.Damn,even if lillend is pure shit I,ll go for her.Not sure about marilith...the breast plate should have been removed.But surely you can reapint her breast I hope.

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10/19/2006 9:17 AM  
Posted By jooquase on 10/19/2006 8:21 AM
It doesn't seem so bad to me, in epic, you can pair with Elminster and the Beguile will have higher DC and you get two of them, creatures like Epic storm archers rout way too often, if you can get one to auto rally and reactivate the same round is huge. I will defenetly want to have at least one of these.
Is Beguile a spell or a special ability?

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10/19/2006 9:18 AM  
Also, is she a CG outsider (and not a commander)? Maybe this will give the Couatl even more fun. I'd imagine that being able to keep Rikka in the game could make Rikka more interesting.

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Coquimbo - Chile / Italia

10/19/2006 10:04 AM  
Beguile is an SA. WoTC is used to create beutifull minis ..... with bad skirmish stats, and .......... UGLY minis very competative and usefull in skirmish. I think that Marilith is very competative and hit hard.......UGLY mini and Liliend maybe will be bad skirmish mini and Beutifull mini...

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10/19/2006 2:09 PM  
I'm guessing the Lillend will have some Epic utility, however. A chance to rally a +141p piece within the range of F10 does seem pretty good.

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10/19/2006 3:03 PM  
Just look at the bright side, if it sucks horribly, its not making CG any worse than it already is, and thats pretty bad.
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10/19/2006 3:07 PM  
I think it will work better in LG, easier to keep it alive with the AC buffing LG has, as well as other defensise like bodyguard


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10/19/2006 4:01 PM  
I think with a couple of new abilities too, there is more chance it is overcosted out of caution.
Still a beautiful looking piece.

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10/19/2006 4:13 PM  
No matters what are it finally stats, i want one Lillend, is form far, one of the good looking miniatures.


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10/19/2006 4:29 PM  
Yes, the Lillend looks like another dust-collector skirmish-wise. "Squishy" is not a good adjective for a skirmish piece. Why couldn't they just give her Couatl-like survivability? I could be jumping the gun, but I doubt she'd be more useful than the Rainbow even with the same HP and AC.

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10/19/2006 4:40 PM  
I'd give it a shot if Beguile has a fairly high DC (18-20 range) but I do have my doubts about the piece for competitve play.

I think it would be better if it did 5 less points of melee damage (which it should anyway, by the MM stats) and costed about 5-8 points lower. It's going to have a primarily function as a support piece, so paying for straight up melee damage on a figure that doesn't need to be in melee isn't going to be efficient.

The preview probably didn't mention everything that the Lillend can do, though, so it may yet be worthy of its point cost.

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10/19/2006 5:03 PM  
Posted By Thenameless on 10/19/2006 4:29 PM
Yes, the Lillend looks like another dust-collector skirmish-wise. "Squishy" is not a good adjective for a skirmish piece. Why couldn't they just give her Couatl-like survivability? I could be jumping the gun, but I doubt she'd be more useful than the Rainbow even with the same HP and AC.


Well, we don't know that it won't have roughly couatl-like survivability. I mean, if you define heavy hitter as "someone that hits for 30" then the couatl can't stand up to multiple hits either.

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10/19/2006 7:09 PM  
IMO the Lillend will probably be ok.  But still, we should wait for the final stats to pass judgement.Â

She does have some potentially game changing abilities though.Â

Not much use with a Frenzied Berserker or fearless Wemic Barbarian in your warband though.Â



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10/19/2006 8:20 PM  
Everything is about tricks in cg and le so you have to expect things to stay steady. Some power hitters with no to hits and low ac's and LE hit alot with great ac but for decent damage.

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10/19/2006 9:18 PM  
Too bad everyone has closed their minds with negativity by the word fragile in the preview.  You are writing a piece off that could still be very good.  Fragile can be used to describe these pieces as well and they are all good for skirmish:

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Everyone has also overlooked an important advantage to the Remove Fear.  Once your commander is lost you can't rally anyone.  If you have a Lillend then they can still rally.

I think the key to whether or not the Lillend will be playable or not comes down to her attack bonuses and the DC and number of uses of the Beguile ability.

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10/19/2006 9:53 PM  
What if the "Remove Fear" were an immediate effect? That would mean target creature makes MC. Fails. But before it routs, Lillend being 6 squares uses it's ability blah blah blah and so on so forth...that would certainly up the Lillend's skirmish value.

I'm just hoping this set will see a 30 to low 40 point beater in the CG faction, as aknowledged and recognized by WOTC, that CG CLEARLY needs!

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10/20/2006 5:22 AM  
Posted By Chad the DragonLordofAiur on 10/19/2006 9:18 PM
Too bad everyone has closed their minds with negativity by the word fragile in the preview.
You haven't seen me write it off yet.  And I'm guessing Pegasus Knight hasn't written it off yet either.



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10/20/2006 6:07 AM  
I actualy like the Idea, imagine going agains an archmage, you could completely destroy the other warband just by controling it for one activation : choose your favorite enemy, then fly to that piece, cast Mordy's sword + quick cast + mordy's sword on it, then that piece will likely go out soon AND the archmage does'nt have anything else good to do for the rest of the squirmish.
Even if the chances for success are slim, I still think that it would be worth a try.

If the Lillend is paired with Elminster, you could also cast the curse on the creature before doing the Beguile doubling the chances of succes.


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10/20/2006 7:00 AM  
Posted By Kissmykiester on 10/19/2006 9:53 PM
What if the "Remove Fear" were an immediate effect? That would mean target creature makes MC. Fails. But before it routs, Lillend being 6 squares uses it's ability blah blah blah and so on so forth...that would certainly up the Lillend's skirmish value.
I hope this is the way they do it, similar to the immediate Close Wounds of the Warpriest of Moradin.  Otherwise you might not even get a shot at using the spell against a Balor, or Vampire Aristocrat.  If it's an immediate action it could be useful.

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10/20/2006 8:30 AM  
Posted By jooquase on 10/20/2006 6:07 AM
I actualy like the Idea, imagine going agains an archmage, you could completely destroy the other warband just by controling it for one activation : choose your favorite enemy, then fly to that piece, cast Mordy's sword + quick cast + mordy's sword on it, then that piece will likely go out soon AND the archmage does'nt have anything else good to do for the rest of the squirmish.
Even if the chances for success are slim, I still think that it would be worth a try.

If the Lillend is paired with Elminster, you could also cast the curse on the creature before doing the Beguile doubling the chances of succes.


Wow  - very cool Jooquase.  It's samples like this that make the game fun.  Just blasting off important spells from their repretoire is a big deal.

I think it's gonna take a while for the creativity to kick and for people come up with all the cool ideas (actually, I don't think they ever come up with ALL of them.).

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10/20/2006 8:39 AM  
Perhaps if something appears in CG that will compliment the Lillend it won't be 44pts of high risk.


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10/20/2006 8:47 AM  
The preview states
"The one that should get CG fans excited is her 1st-level remove fear, which automatically rallies a routing creature within 6 squares."

-So that certainly sounds similar to CLOSE WOUNDS in that it is nto a spell that must be cast or uses an activation.

" Her spells and abilities, combined with a reasonable damage output (two swings for 15 magic damage each) and an incredible fly speed of 10 squares"

15magic x 2 is pretty good for CG faction and her speed lets her swoop far enough that she might get to that important pice in your backfield.

As mentioned concerning Archmages, the THREAT of beguile is also a weapon. Maybe you should use a key spell or ability sooner rather than later so she cant turn the tables (I assume these things would not reset). Imagine your opponent getting to use your Grant Move, Mord Sword, Fireball, cure critical wounds, a ballistae electrocute the adjacent war weaver, belcher belch on a wardrummer or tiefling, HGB smush an adjacent low AC CE beater etc, Or making your squishy commander walk up to the enemy beater (or let himself be flanked etc.). I think bands that use her will have some very interesting match reports to write.

If there are trogs or the like in this release, then there is also the chance to have pieces move in to reduce saves. That might work better for the succubus in constructed play....

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10/20/2006 9:35 AM  
Have a squishy (or heavily damaged) piece double move through all of your team's threatened spaces to stand toe to toe with your hitter, then full activate that hitter.

Again, I'm wondering who will get the AoO when you move your opponents piece.


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10/20/2006 10:57 AM  
I'm wondering who will get the AoO when you move your opponents piece


I think that the creature is temporarly conciderred as your's so you canot AoO it, and your oponent can chose to AoO it if he likes (unlikely).


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10/20/2006 11:05 AM  
Posted By greyhaze on 10/20/2006 9:35 AM
Have a squishy (or heavily damaged) piece double move through all of your team's threatened spaces to stand toe to toe with your hitter, then full activate that hitter.

Again, I'm wondering who will get the AoO when you move your opponents piece.


Other effects of this kind do not allow you to take AOOs. I highly doubt this will be any different.

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10/20/2006 11:13 AM  
the word fragile might refer to the piece it'self (maybe they keep breaking in shipping)


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10/20/2006 12:19 PM  

She will make a lot of appearances on my skirmish team.  Even if she isn't tier 1, she'll be a lot of fun.

As for her effectiveness, I am not sure she will not be tier 1.Â

Her hps will be 45.  Bank on it.  That is what the RPG version has, and they only change that when there is a good reason.  Couatl, Ghaele, etc... have their RPG hps...  I'd be dumbfounded if it were less.

What does that mean?  Let'a compare her to the Couatl when assasseing how she responds to being slapped around by your opponent:

If you're being hit for 30, both creatures morale check after 1 hit, and die after 2.
If you're being hit for 25, the Lilliend routes after 1 hit and dies after the second, while the Couatl can take 1 more hit before each threshold.
If you're being hit for 20, both creatures morale check after 2 hits and die after 3.
If you're being hit for 15, both creatures morale after 2, the Lilliend dies after 3 hits, and the couatl dies after 4 hits.
If you're being hit for 10, both creatures morale check after 3 hits, the Lilliend dies after 5 hits and the COuatl dies after 6 hits.

They're fairly similar, with only minor advantages for the Couatl.  The 65 hp threshold is a big threshold - but falling short of it by 5 or 15 points isn't that different.

So, then we look at her abilities:

Beguile is a huge ability.  If it works, you can a.) set the creature up to be killed off by all of your heavy hitters, b.) be forced to use up a powerful ability to the detriment of your foe, c.) move a powerful opponent someplace where he'll be useless for at least 1 round, or d.) a lot of other sneaky things.  It can put your entire enemy force out of command.  It can make a Chraal use up the cone of cold on the HBG and open a hole to let your other bashers get at the HBG.  It can force an HGB to wail on the other HGB before moving someplace where he can be kept out of combat for a good amount of time.  Think of combining this ability with a map slopes... Nasty.  Think of it this way: You lose the attack portion of your round, and you can set back your opponent at least an entire rounds worth of benefit... Nasty.

Remove fear means that you can live without a commander in a band with one or two creatures that need to make morale saves.  If CG ever gets a great titan figure, I can imagine running it without a commander and using the lilliend to save it from a failed morale save... And this spell has other uses.  With those Aura of Fear 5 abilities that epic dragons have, this creature can keep a lot of creatures in the game despie the difficulty of the morale check.  Finally, the creature in question doesn't lose an action.  It might even be able to chrage right back and nail the guy that sent him packing in the prior activation.  If you set up the routing path right, the use of this spell can turn a failed morale check into a benefit that allows the creature in question to move to a better target and get there a round faster... which can be huge for slow pieces.

I don't think I even need to mention how cool flight 10 will be.  That is a pretty mobile piece...

Her attack, despite the 15 damage, will likely be lacking.  It might exceed +11/+6 on the attack bonus, but I think that will likely be the bonus.  That isn't terribly great, but it is easier for flying creatures to charge/and or flank... meaning that she can likely get to a +13 or +15 on an attack which is respectable.  Due to the fragile nature, you wouldn't want to move her in until you're dropping the final blows... but she can be used to drop in that final blow on a foe that is immune to the beguile....


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10/20/2006 1:08 PM  
Good points jgsugden, Liliend seems to be better but I think that DC of beguile will be to low like 16-17 ..... you can count of beguile value for now. Remove fear seems to be VERY USEFULL.

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02/13/2007 3:54 PM  
Posted By Nate_666 on 10/19/2006 3:03 PM
Just look at the bright side, if it sucks horribly, its not making CG any worse than it already is, and thats pretty bad.
  Â


Heh - I was just reading some old posts and came across this.  Funny how times change.  CG rocks now!!!

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02/13/2007 7:21 PM  
I agree, CG was the faction i was most interested in when i started playing.  Luckily shortly after that we saw the birth of the FB, but times were rough back in the day between abberations and blood war.  Sure we had our ups and downs for CG such as Rika, but nothing more than the other factions.  I am happy that Blood War pushed CG back into the scene, i just hope that unhallowed gives us some good CE beaters and with thrall of blackrazor that looks like it will happen.  I miss CE quad!!!

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02/13/2007 9:20 PM  
Yep, I totally agree. I'm a big CG fan too, and it's nice to know we can build bands now that actually compete. Can't wait to see what Unhallowed has in store for us!
Posted By Nate_666 on 02/13/2007 7:21 PM
I agree, CG was the faction i was most interested in when i started playing.  Luckily shortly after that we saw the birth of the FB, but times were rough back in the day between abberations and blood war.  Sure we had our ups and downs for CG such as Rika, but nothing more than the other factions.  I am happy that Blood War pushed CG back into the scene, i just hope that unhallowed gives us some good CE beaters and with thrall of blackrazor that looks like it will happen.  I miss CE quad!!!



Dr. Simon: A phrase that's encoded in her brain, that makes her fall asleep. If I speak the words, "Eta...
Jayne: Well don't say it!
Zoë: It only works on her, Jayne.
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