Sirohk
Commander
3813 Posts
    
USA
 | | 12/02/2006 6:31 AM |
| Can anyone say Quad LE!Â Â It will rise from the the dead (no pun intended) yet once again if Shadowdancers become prevelant.Â
Anti Shadowdancer pieces include those immune to criticals - Constructs, Elementals, Undead.Â
Still, the Shadowdancer is a great piece and I think she worls very well with Storm.Â
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Sirohk, the Bard of Heartstone
Knight of the Rahshasa's
And Crusader of the Zakya, Ak'chazar, Naztharune, and Naityan Rakshasa's | |
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Low Key
Underboss
1231 Posts
| | 12/02/2006 7:03 AM |
| Posted By Sirohk on 12/02/2006 6:31 AM Can anyone say Quad LE!   It will rise from the the dead (no pun intended) yet once again if Shadowdancers become prevelant. Anti Shadowdancer pieces include those immune to criticals - Constructs, Elementals, Undead.  Still, the Shadowdancer is a great piece and I think she worls very well with Storm. 
LE quad is back from the dead? I dont think it ever died.
The traditional "Duergar Phonebooth" combined with metagame-silver bullets like the Chraal, Zakya, Efreeti, Helmed Horror, Hellcat and Mezzy is always a good choice. I mean the warband really doesnt have a weak point. Just plain effectiveness. | |
Champion of the Sarrukh | |
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Autoxdsm
Sergeant
814 Posts
Myrtle Beach, SC
| | 12/02/2006 7:51 AM |
| LE quad is back from the dead? I dont think it ever died. The traditional "Duergar Phonebooth" combined with metagame-silver bullets like the Chraal, Zakya, Efreeti, Helmed Horror, Hellcat and Mezzy is always a good choice. I mean the warband really doesnt have a weak point. Just plain effectiveness.
Amen. I think LE is always a good choice. It has good matchups against any warband and is very easy to play. It can also be very flexible with the 4 main beaters and what combonation you want to use. | |
Champion of the Brainstealer Dragon
Desert of Desolation Called Shot: Medium Brown Dragon
***Winner of WBC VIII and XII*** | |
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Sirohk
Commander
3813 Posts
USA
| | 12/02/2006 8:07 AM |
| Posted By Low Key on 12/02/2006 7:03 AM LE quad is back from the dead? I dont think it ever died. The traditional "Duergar Phonebooth" combined with metagame-silver bullets like the Chraal, Zakya, Efreeti, Helmed Horror, Hellcat and Mezzy is always a good choice. I mean the warband really doesnt have a weak point. Just plain effectiveness.
It never died, I was just being sarcastic as there has not been much LE Quad talk recently, especially with all the new BW toys for CG and the FGFP.Â
Maybe I should start a seperate thread on LE Quad warband ideas. Na, I'll just keep them under the radar for a while longer.Â
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Sirohk, the Bard of Heartstone
Knight of the Rahshasa's
And Crusader of the Zakya, Ak'chazar, Naztharune, and Naityan Rakshasa's | |
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iluvxtina
Underboss
1497 Posts
Spain
| | 12/02/2006 10:23 AM |
| | died?my god...helmed horror is one of the best creatures in the whole game.I always play two in my LE warbands. | |
LOVE THIS GIRL | |
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Chad the DragonLordofAiur
Underboss
1085 Posts
Southeast PA
| | 12/02/2006 3:27 PM |
| I just got back from a tournament and in an 8 player field I went 3-0 using quad dancers. In the first round I defeated a triple shadow dancer band with wand expert and moon elf. In the second round I completely obliterated a Korducopia band on the Outpost. I dropped the Couatl first, then the CoDA, then the dragonmark Heir, then Kord. All in about 4 rounds. Round three I obliterated a FGFP, Heir, and Blackguard on Nightmare band.
The reason the dancers are so good right now is because there aren't very many good pieces immune to sneak attack. The Chraal is one but his commander is super vulnerable to the dancers. There aren't any really competitive undead yet save the Sacred Watcher and he can be ignored for the most part. For constructs we have these good pieces: Marut, Maug, and Helmed Horror. Those three right there are probably the best counter.
Even a GAS band will have problems because the Young Master will go down fast and the defensive roll will stop an autocrit stun. The Inspired Frenzy band can lose the IM very easily before the GMA is pulled off. Squishy commanders beware.
I can see the little Hammerer making a presence as a bodyguard for the LG commanders. He can really punish the AC 16 Dancer for 15 damage. His speed 4 hurts a lot though.
I need to revisit the quad LE band with HH and Maug. Also the dancers aren't immune and can't defensive roll auto damage from spells, BW, and such. | |
Member of Team Amish
3rd Place in 2007 Constructed World Championship
My combined DDM Skirmish record of all games ever played in all formats.
486 - 188 - 4 | |
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Sirohk
Commander
3813 Posts
USA
| | 12/02/2006 6:04 PM |
| Chad - Nice report, thanks.Â
Out of curiosity, what commander did you use? Storm? Or another?Â
Sounds like LE warbands with the HH might just make a BIG comeback. Maybe throw in a Maug.Â
Or maybe a comeback for Marutakopia (Marut / Bodyguard / Couatl / Commander (better be beefy), filler).Â
Also, Plants (Warbound Impaler) are immune to Sneak Attack.Â
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Sirohk, the Bard of Heartstone
Knight of the Rahshasa's
And Crusader of the Zakya, Ak'chazar, Naztharune, and Naityan Rakshasa's | |
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Chad the DragonLordofAiur
Underboss
1085 Posts
Southeast PA
| | 12/02/2006 6:16 PM |
| | Storm Silverhand. | |
Member of Team Amish
3rd Place in 2007 Constructed World Championship
My combined DDM Skirmish record of all games ever played in all formats.
486 - 188 - 4 | |
|
nycfarmkid
Underboss
1210 Posts
Wadsworth, OH
| |
elder_basilisk
Sergeant
410 Posts
| | 12/02/2006 7:34 PM |
| I think the shadowdancers do change the meta--not in the sense that you
need a counter to them, but rather, in the sense that, in combination
with the mounted valenar charger, Storm, and the Githyanki Dragon
Knight (not proven but still could show up in an effective build), and
Rikka (who already existed but has more drawbacks and was less commonly
seen) they make squishy commanders suddenly very vulnerable. I think
the extent that shadowdancers, etc make squishy commanders vulnerable
does change the meta.
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Knight of the
Round Table
Thenameless
Warlord
9048 Posts
The Fortress of Solitude
| | 12/02/2006 7:48 PM |
| Posted By iluvxtina on 12/02/2006 10:23 AM
died?my god...helmed horror is one of the best creatures in the whole game.I always play two in my LE warbands.
I know that the Helmed Horror is tough to take down, but haven't your opponents learned to take creatures either with DR or fire resistance or both? These things, and to a lesser extent the Dragon Shrine map, are what helped to end the Helmed Horror's short reign at the top. | |
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tundrin
Sergeant
409 Posts
Randolph, NJ
| | 12/03/2006 11:04 AM |
| I was the 3xshadow dancer band that Chad knocked off in round 1.
Not having storm and actually not played agaisnt her much, I was taken off guard by a firs round confusion that all but gnome and 2 dancers failed. How about that - CG failing saves?
After that I dragged it out for a few rounds, but it was effectively over. Had I passed saves, my moon elf would have sent three shadows over to pound on storm
And I went on to win my two other matches, including dual FB with IM and Gnome.
So dancers went 5-1 for the day.
So, Not having storm I am using moon elf. He can send all the shadows to attack one piece in one round. 3xdancer plus tech has not proven strudy enough (either wand expert or storm archer) so I have dropped him and added the 4th dancer, plus the gnome.
For the last 11 points - thinking Devis and invisible wolf.
Titan bands are in trouble. Quad beaters are much better off, as the dancers cant kill them all in one round, and once the DR are used up, the AC 16 is a juicy target.
No time limit matches are tougher becasue of this, but standard 60 minute matches favor the quick kill a piece or two and run away strategy of the dancer. | |
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Seeking Northern NJ DDM'ers - "There can be only one" (I hope not)
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Autoxdsm
Sergeant
814 Posts
Myrtle Beach, SC
| | 12/04/2006 9:45 AM |
| | I was playing a triple shadowdancer with storm and probably one of the worst warbands to face....Cadaver Collector. I killed everything but the CC and bashed all their faces in quickly. I used all my DRs on the CC and only got it down to 35hp | |
Champion of the Brainstealer Dragon
Desert of Desolation Called Shot: Medium Brown Dragon
***Winner of WBC VIII and XII*** | |
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tundrin
Sergeant
409 Posts
Randolph, NJ
| | 12/04/2006 9:55 AM |
| That is where what ever jumps you have left are used to get you FAR away and sitting on victory areas!
I last had a match against BPM, SSE, Village priest with 2 arcanix, tusk, war weaver and wolf.
I went for the tusk early and took him down, but that cost me my invisbility. The Guards came in and started hitting for 15 to 20 each time!
In the third round, with the BPM and SSE very close, I used tactics and slide to sneak attack the BPM 3 times (all hit at +15) to kill him, and take out the SSE.
It was still a challenge, i failed MC on two Shadows (at +12) and then my gnome (ooc) but i was far away from the exit and had enough points to win.
The key is to decide which piece or two is the linchpin of the band and take it out quickly (before an important spell or grant move for example)
Try to stay next to a wall after basing and attacking, lets you attack and then jump away afterward without the AOO. That AC 16 is going to get a lot of hits if you try to stand there.
Quad beaters is the tough matchup, you need to get one or two to rout before expedning all your rolls and jumps. | |
Champs 2007 Top 16, Team Amish Class of 2007
Seeking Northern NJ DDM'ers - "There can be only one" (I hope not)
Champion of the Doppleganger | |
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Chad the DragonLordofAiur
Underboss
1085 Posts
Southeast PA
| | 12/04/2006 10:16 AM |
| That's exactly right Tundrin. You target the opponent's weak point or linchpin piece first. When I faced Korducopia I went right for the Couatl. Eliminating that first meant the opponent's Kord would only be swinging once per turn which I could easily defensive roll. So all of his offense was neutralized. He had protected his CODA with the Bodyguard Heir. Had he protected the Couatl with the Heir then I would have gone after the CODA to eliminate any chance of healing. He couldn't possibly protect both with the Heir as he has to move two at a time and that is three pieces.
The shadow dancer does change the metagame a lot. Squishy commanders are in trouble. Pieces that require commanders are in trouble. Tech pieces with low hp and high cost are in trouble. Even Archmages are in trouble too. Now their dimension door spells won't bring them to safety. The dancers can still catch them. I think Unhallowed will be bringing us new undead to use as a Shadow Dancer counter. | |
Member of Team Amish
3rd Place in 2007 Constructed World Championship
My combined DDM Skirmish record of all games ever played in all formats.
486 - 188 - 4 | |
|
tundrin
Sergeant
409 Posts
Randolph, NJ
| | 12/04/2006 11:46 AM |
| Yes - glad i left my Cleric of order, coatul arcane ballistae band in the bag!
Would have been interesting to see you go against the Pit Fiend Aspect of Hextor band. Blind Fight and 2 fireballs and multiple attacks might have slowed you down. | |
Champs 2007 Top 16, Team Amish Class of 2007
Seeking Northern NJ DDM'ers - "There can be only one" (I hope not)
Champion of the Doppleganger | |
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Sirohk
Commander
3813 Posts
USA
| | 12/04/2006 2:41 PM |
| Chad / Tundrin:
Thanks for the continued information on the Shadowdancer and how well your SD warbands faired recently.Â
Having not yet played a SD warband, I'm still having a hard time picturing how to pull it off with Storm. I can see it with the Moon Elf Fighter a and a Gmone Trickster using invisibility and using Tactics. But with Storm I've got to do some play testing.Â
Let me see if I'm getting this right.Â
1st SD jumps next to / near target (lynchpin of warband) and attacks without flanking.Â
2nd SDÂ jumps next to / near same target and attacks desireably with flank.Â
Repeat with 3rd and 4th, hopefully both have flank.Â
Win initiative (key) and wack away with flanking & sneak attack. Much damage delivered hopefully at this time. Swift jump if next to wall or move away taking AoO and use Defensive Roll to avoid damage.Â
All SD's would prefer to be next to a wall afterwards for easy escape and no AoO.Â
This all depends on hitting target. Bad rolls would hurt, correct? Especially against high AC warbands.Â
Also, what if your opponent uses up some of your Defensive rolls before your 4 SD's can escape? Winning that key initiative can be critical to your warbands survival as if they have to move away and take AoO's, it could hurt. Â
I can possibly see way Storm might be important if the SD's fail MC and run - she can make them fearless when they come running at her and automatically make their MC.Â
Do I have to hang of it with the Shadowdancers?Â
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Sirohk, the Bard of Heartstone
Knight of the Rahshasa's
And Crusader of the Zakya, Ak'chazar, Naztharune, and Naityan Rakshasa's | |
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Chad the DragonLordofAiur
Underboss
1085 Posts
Southeast PA
| | 12/05/2006 4:57 AM |
| Well I've always used the Outpost when I use Storm. A few reasons, the dancers don't care about pits, they can jump over to reach the back lines. The pits keep some or all of the enemy pieces from getting in. Also, if you start in the cave side you can threaten to move Storm out and hit the enemy starting area with a confusion spell.Â
All of the following strategy comes if you start on the cave side. I also kind of use Storm as bait. The first thing I do is make the band invisible, obviously. I have yet to even cast flight on anything. I haven't needed it yet. Anyway, I move the dancers way out and spread them out. I will move one down to the lower path to the bridge so it can see into the enemy backfield. I move the other three up the main passageway. One into the alcove, one by the bridge, and one back a little bit and towards the top so it can potentially go down the top side if needed. Storm comes out 12 spaces. I want her as near the center as I can. Storm is bait because sometimes the enemy will seek to bring her down quickly. If she is still invisible this is typically a mistake. The hitter or hitters will come across the bridge and engage her. They won't be able to get past the invis and now they are super vulnerable to a quad dancer swarm all right around Storm so they are all fearless. Also, since Storm is still invisble she can simply walk away and leave the enemy hitter surrounded by dancers.
The enemy always moves close to the bridge on round one. The hitters typically lead and the support trails. The second round actions are totally dependent on what the enemy band is and how things play out. Typically I will look to either gang up on any hitter I can gain a flank on and be relatively safe vs. a counter attack. I don't need to necessarily get away after the attack. Sometimes if I engage a hitter the battle will commense right there and the dancers will never need to jump away. Sometimes they kill or route a hitter and I can reposition them against another target with jumps or by simply moving.
More often instead of engaging a hitter I will seek out the commander (especially if they are weak) or the tech pieces. These pieces do not typically have high AC. The first attack is at +15 (+2 from invis) or even +17  if I can jump to a charge position. The second dancer jumps in at +17 (+2 from invis and +2 from flank) or +19 if charging. They rarely miss on targets at those percentages. I don't follow a set strategy. It mostly comes from my skirmish experience of having played over 450 matches. I just know what the best target is and how to approach the battle. Each match is different. The dancers make it easy for an experienced player to capitalize on a positioning error of the opponent. That is what I meant in my earlier posts when I said some games are won easily.
Some things I look for:
If the enemy is fielding Kord, FGFP, Marilith etc. I may actually decide to go right at the titan. Since they are large bases it is virtually impossible for the enemy to keep the piece from getting flanked by the dancers. Using Storm instead of the Moon Elf I can't activate all four at the same time, but, since the titan is typically all or most of their offense, bringing in two at a time is safe enough as I am expecting the titan to be swinging at the dancers anyway and I can easily DefRoll the counter attack. Once all four dancers are there I bring Storm up and make them fearless. The titan won't last two rounds. The defroll ability allows them to last long enough for storm to arrive.
With multiple hitters then the commander is typically weaker. Once the commander is dropped the remaining hitters are vulnerable to routing off with no chance of rallying.  As a general rule in all DDM matches you want to gang up as much as possible on a single enemy to kill them as fast as possible. As each piece falls the enemy's ability to counter attack is weakened. One reason the dancer is so good is because in normal battles it is difficult to dogpile all your hitters onto a single enemy hitter. But a teleporting invisible dancer can get right in to where they need to be. It is easy to do so on a piece that as already activated so no follow-up attack can occur until the following round. This often means the piece you gang up on is killed before it can even do anything. That first kill is typically enough of an advantage that an experienced player, like myself, can leverage it into a victory. | |
Member of Team Amish
3rd Place in 2007 Constructed World Championship
My combined DDM Skirmish record of all games ever played in all formats.
486 - 188 - 4 | |
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Janos M.
Underboss
1015 Posts
Hamburg / GErmany
| | 12/05/2006 5:11 AM |
| Wow very detailed tactics. Great Job!
Do you have another one for not getting your map?
Let's say for example: Dragondown Grotto?
out of kuriosity. Does your 337 - 124 - 4 include Vassal games or non DCI games?
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My Haves and wants:
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Champion of Elan Psions
Proud Owner of the "Aura of cursed dice" | |
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Chad the DragonLordofAiur
Underboss
1085 Posts
Southeast PA
| | 12/05/2006 5:28 AM |
| Actually I don't because I have rarely played the Dancers on any other maps. So before everyone runs out to play dancers remember this fact: The King's Road and the Dragondown grotto are HUGE issues for the dancer bands.
@Janos - My record includes every game/match- every Vassal game, every DCI sanctioned match, every league game, every game against my friends, and even games that I've intentionally thrown against young kids when I'm trying to teach them and make the game fun for them. I keep it up to date more for myself rather than to toot my own horn. I apologize if it comes across as being arrogant.
It is somewhat inflated because I play more non-sanctioned matches than sanctioned ones. | |
Member of Team Amish
3rd Place in 2007 Constructed World Championship
My combined DDM Skirmish record of all games ever played in all formats.
486 - 188 - 4 | |
|
Low Key
Underboss
1231 Posts
| | 12/05/2006 6:05 AM |
| | How about Ryld as a commander? +2 to attack helps with the low attack bonus, and the +8 iniative will help alot for getting a suitable map. | |
Champion of the Sarrukh | |
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tundrin
Sergeant
409 Posts
Randolph, NJ
| | 12/05/2006 7:03 AM |
| Help, but you cant base everything on the map, and depending on eventual tourney format, maybe you dont even get to pick the map.
With King's road there are plenty of trees, so with Hide the dancer can at least move around without getting range attacked while she sets up flanks. Chad uses Storm, so she can get the Dancers to fly if needed, which also helps limit the drawback of king's road. I think there are five rocks on KR also, so at least some jumping is possible, but only top to bottom and bottow to left (I would have to double check LOS on that) with the bottom rock being in the center of a victory area, you can decide on wheter to jump to your own area, or be able to jump and attack your enemy's tile grabber - most grabbers will not stand up to a +15 attack for 20 magic (and probably out of command as well)
Dragondown is another issue. One rock!? No walls on the borders? Not much jumping to do. Some trees to help sneaking around the grotto and avoiding ranged attacks while getting into position. Here again - Storm would give flight and the Dancers are likely invisible from Gnome anyway (hide is useful once the first attack is done). Or depending on opponent, perhaps Invis is used during a tactical retreat after a key piece is killed. They skulk back through the trees to get invis'ed by the gnome and then lay in wait for the opponent to come to them if up on points.
After some debate last night with Chad, and based on the above, I would concede that Storm is likely a better commander for the Dancers than (close second) the Moon Elf. I havent gotten a Stormette so I havent played her, but the combination of Fearless for the Dancers, Fly capability overcoming bad map issues, minor healing and that ever-annoying Confusion Radius 2. The moon elf has his tactics for a couple swarming attacks, after the invis and Def rolls are used up, the dancers will get hit and at +12MC (assuming under command and no reductions) will fail sometimes.
I also have not played my dancers on KR or DDG (maybe I will just use that as my map for next matches to see what happens). You want to see how your band works before you see how it doesnt work.
The benefit of Moon Elf and Storm is that they are two of the (if not the) sturdiest  CG commanders out there. Given all the flying and invisibility (mostly from CG), weak commanders are in trouble.
Can we say the CG has gained the most from BW? At the very least, what CG gained will change warband building concerns- save it for another thread.... | |
Champs 2007 Top 16, Team Amish Class of 2007
Seeking Northern NJ DDM'ers - "There can be only one" (I hope not)
Champion of the Doppleganger | |
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nycfarmkid
Underboss
1210 Posts
Wadsworth, OH
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tundrin
Sergeant
409 Posts
Randolph, NJ
| | 12/05/2006 10:05 AM |
| I tried Kyp's band with Storm archer, wizard tactician, but I think the gnome is required for maximum effectiveness.
The I tried using a Wand Expert instead of one Dancer, the blur on the commander is nice, and the damage can be good if you are close, but he died very quickly due to low AC, low HP and comparitive lack of mobility - he is best when close, but the dancers might need to hop far away, leaving him stranded
With Storm, maybe a half ogre barbarian with his big damage output (20 without having to flank) but if the dancers jump far he is not an issue, or he could be flying....
Drawing a parallel to the GAS, lots of variations were done subbing in for one of the monks, but 4xmonk came out on top.
If one or even two are taken out, there are still two more there doing their thing. | |
Champs 2007 Top 16, Team Amish Class of 2007
Seeking Northern NJ DDM'ers - "There can be only one" (I hope not)
Champion of the Doppleganger | |
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djtool
Sergeant
584 Posts
Crystal MN, USA
| | 12/05/2006 11:26 AM |
| I played against chad last night. He fielded:
moon elf
shadowdance x 4
gnome trickster
devis
wolf
I fielded:
LoB
HH x 2
Dark moon monk
Green sneak x 2
skirmisher x 2
from that one experience I can say with little doubt that fielding a
squishy commander is not a horrible way to go with this
band...hopefully you have a bodyguard too. It's way to easy for
this band to drop 80 dmg on any given figure so if you think fielding
that tough, expensive commander is going to save you you're only
playing into the bands hand even more by providing a lot of easy
points. If you're thinking about BG'ing that expensive commander
your now relying on that commander to do a lot of the heavy-work.Â
in LE the only one with a chance is pit fiend as orog and LoB's speed
of 4 makes it too easy the other guy to play keep-away.
In our match I ended up winning but it was down to the wire. The
defensive roll is what makes this piece so strong. Chad was not
but there is no better 'slow play' piece in the game IMO(tournament
legal)...the longer the game goes (barring something unusual) the more
it plays into the dancers hands (my take at first experience).
this is a tough, tough band and I don't see why it can't be tier
1. no reason you can't get flanking and swinging at +15 for 20
dmg (vs. most pieces) while having 60 hps is *very* strong for a 28
point piece. the trickster and defensive roll make up for the
lack of AC very well.Â
Auto-damage can be a great equalizer to this type of band. The
construct as this bands bane doesn't hold tight for me. If you're
terrified of this guy (the 'shadowdancer guy') you could field triple
HH or double HH but...I dunno now your playing more into the hands of
'fire giant guy' or 'bralani guy'. Still the HH is a good counter
with construct traits and blindsight. Who knows maybe khumat
could be good vs. these guys (as long as you field something else for
them to assasinate) as their MC at (most likely) +12 isn't the most
solid. One last strategy to employ vs. this type of band is to
attack with your weaker damaging units first as a crit can help use up
a defensive roll. Its not a high percentage tactic, but vs. this
type of band you may find yourself with very little wiggle room.
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Champion of: Brain in a Jar | |
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Kilroy
Sneak
74 Posts
| | 12/05/2006 12:04 PM |
| And I've wondered how they would work with an Archmage. They could help focus on the titan or the fragile commander that the Archmage has targeted. Maybe something like this:
98 Archmage
29 Inspiring Marshall
56 Shadowdancer x2
05 Timber Wolf
12 Xeph Warrior x3
Could that be another way to go with the Archmage now? | |
"When Jesus spoke again to the people, he said, 'I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life.'." -John 8:12 | |
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Chad the DragonLordofAiur
Underboss
1085 Posts
Southeast PA
| | 12/05/2006 12:05 PM |
| @DJTool
Yes it was a very close game. I made three mistakes, maybe four or I would have won. Firstly and my biggest mistake was thinking the LoB was immune to sneak attack. When I won init in round two I was planning on an Alpha strike on the LoB who was left alnoe in the rear. Your HH were too far away to move back and attack the dancers without a double move. Assuming all four dancer hits landed the LoB would have been dead before engagement. Even if he survived the initial attack three of the four dancers were next to walls so the following round they could attack and jump away. I know the LoB had healing too but I think I would have dropped him with at most losing one dancer.
As it played out I lost the Moon Elf. That was my second mistake. I miscounted the distance between the HH and the Moon Elf. When I retreated to the corner I initially counted enough spaces so that you couldn't re-base me. Then he would definetly survive one more round and possibly more should I win init and be given enough room to run away some more. I moved him up one square at the last minute because I wanted to make sure he had LOS to the dancers. I could have moved him diagonally left and kept them in LOS and been more than 12 spaces away like I intended. I forgot to re-count the distance to the HH so my Moon Elf, with only 15hp remaining, was re-based and killed the following round.
Despite all that, I would have won had one more attack landed on the HH that was at 5hp remaining. I had one shot at it and missed. If we went one more round I would have gotten two more attacks.
Mistake number three was when I messed up the activation order in the end game. I almost never make that mistake and I'm not sure why I did. Once your HHs had acted I hastily attacked with my dancers on the LoB. I was going for the instant win thinking I had everything in the bag but I forgot that my trickster was facing a morale check before he activated. I should have acted him first for two reasons. He could have potentially killed his fodder assailants and prevented the MC or even if he missed the resulting MC would have occured after he acted so he wouldn't have routed off until the following round. That extra round was all I needed to win.
Oh, and the fourth mistake was not moving the twolf down like I was going to do. I should have given up the VP that round and brought him down. I could have used him to give me a flank bonus on those last two dancer attacks or attacked the fodder you used to score that last set of 10 VP which put you over 200.
One other thing that I considered but didn't try because I didn't have the time and people hate it was to play keep away after I killed the LoB. I was ahead 112-30 and I think if I ran away the rest of the game I would have won on tile points. But that isn't a whole lot of fun and would have meant lasting for 9 rounds and it was getting late so I decided not to use that strategy against you. In a timed tournament I would have most certainly done that and won the match.
Overall it was a well played match. You played well DJ. But in my eyes I felt it was a really good test and one that proved to me that the dancers can still win against constructs if given enough targets susceptible to sneak attack. Three or four HH will certainly win out over dancers. I'll need to see how they work on the other maps. | |
Member of Team Amish
3rd Place in 2007 Constructed World Championship
My combined DDM Skirmish record of all games ever played in all formats.
486 - 188 - 4 | |
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djtool
Sergeant
584 Posts
Crystal MN, USA
| | 12/05/2006 12:21 PM |
| @chad   Â
everything you say is true. The only caveat to that is that I
made mistakes too. I think if I was to replay it I would try find
a better position for the LoB and babysit to see how that plays
out. I'm wondering if he wouldn't have been better up against the
wall. That makes it easy to retreat for you..but also negates 20
damage....something to think about i guess. I'm not %100 sure if
going for broke on the moon-elf was the proper thing to do...but even
after that I could have found a way to minimize flanks on the LoB with
the wall and the skirmishers.
That was my first play with that LoB band and I think i'm going to
practice more. I think it's main weakness is that it relies
heavily on player skill @_@!
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tundrin
Sergeant
409 Posts
Randolph, NJ
| | 12/05/2006 1:48 PM |
| Thats where another of the gnomes spells comes in handy!
He can either slide a Shadow next to a wall so she can attack and jump, or slide an opponent away from a wall to better enable flanks, or to push him/her/it between two shadows as a surprise double flank.
Just a useful little gnome he is. | |
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Sirohk
Commander
3813 Posts
USA
| | 12/05/2006 3:06 PM |
| Chad, tundrin, DJtool - great write ups and discussions! Very useful info. From what I've been reading the Shadordancer warband IS meta changing - it can from initial discussions beat just about evert warband out there. The one potential drawback is that map choice is going to be important. Posted By Chad the DragonLordofAiur on 12/05/2006 12:05 PM
@DJTool
Yes it was a very close game. I made three mistakes, maybe four or I would have won. Firstly and my biggest mistake was thinking the LoB was immune to sneak attack.Â
Yup. the Lord of Blades is Humanoid (Human) and thus NOT immune to sneak attack.Â
Posted By djtool on 12/05/2006 11:26 AM
I played against chad last night. He fielded:
I fielded:
LoB
HH x 2
Dark moon monk
Green sneak x 2
skirmisher x 2
DJtool - Any thoughts on including a Hellcat in that warband? Has Blindsight, and the Conceal 11 should help cuase the Shadowdnacers to miss a few times. Just the low hit points and low level mean he runs easily with the LoB.Â
Keep up the great discussion folks. This is one tough wraband that needs analyses.Â
Cheers.
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Sirohk, the Bard of Heartstone
Knight of the Rahshasa's
And Crusader of the Zakya, Ak'chazar, Naztharune, and Naityan Rakshasa's | |
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djtool
Sergeant
584 Posts
Crystal MN, USA
| | 12/05/2006 10:25 PM |
| no...no hellcat. besides MC'ing at +9 you can't utilize his CE at all...not that I've even charged with the HH's yet 
I've briefly kicked the idea of LoB and epic BoN for some nasty mounted melee attacks...but I doubt it'd be worth the points.
I think the hellcat is a sneaky good piece that people aren't hip to yet though. It's only real drawback is its damage makeup (IMO) and that's more because you have to pay 15 for MW. Its a hell of a screener and probably excels on hellspike. If you're looking for an excuse to field one I've come up with a band...it needs work but:
kobold sorcerer
hellcat
helmed horror
efreeti
red hand sorc/urthok
green sneak
blue/ 5pt fodder
blue/ 5 pt fodder
I went with the kobold because I was going to play this tonight and don't own a dark moon monk. anyways I think at least one blue is a must with red hand sorcerer. I chose to field 3 beaters that need MW to get my money's worth out of the kobold and hellcat + helmed horror should be able to screen for the efreeti well enough. if you're not facing DR the kobold can fire magic missles to kill fodder or force MC's. | |
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Janos M.
Underboss
1015 Posts
Hamburg / GErmany
| | 12/06/2006 12:20 AM |
| Posted By Chad the DragonLordofAiur on 12/05/2006 5:28 AM
@Janos - My record includes every game/match- every Vassal game, every DCI sanctioned match, every league game, every game against my friends, and even games that I've intentionally thrown against young kids when I'm trying to teach them and make the game fun for them. I keep it up to date more for myself rather than to toot my own horn. I apologize if it comes across as being arrogant.
It is somewhat inflated because I play more non-sanctioned matches than sanctioned ones.
There is no need to apologize. I read the numbers and thought to myself wow he's going near to 500...
I was only interested, because I play a lot and I keep record of every game I made myself. And I won half my games (102 -Â 97 - 0).
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Chad the DragonLordofAiur
Underboss
1085 Posts
Southeast PA
| | 12/06/2006 7:06 AM |
| | Yes it is hard to believe when I look back on it that I have played that many matches. I have been playing since Archfiends came out almost three years ago. I like to tell people that I've lost over 100 games. Makes them less worried than if I say I've won over 300. | |
Member of Team Amish
3rd Place in 2007 Constructed World Championship
My combined DDM Skirmish record of all games ever played in all formats.
486 - 188 - 4 | |
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Kilroy
Sneak
74 Posts
| | 12/06/2006 11:10 AM |
| Posted By Sirohk on 12/05/2006 3:06 PM
Yup. the Lord of Blades is Humanoid (Human) and thus NOT immune to sneak attack.Â
Not to nitpick, but the LoB is Construct (Living Construct), and the definition is Living construct is:
DDM Glossary says:
Living Construct: This creature is a sort of Construct but has only limited immunities. It does not have Fearless. It has only the special ability Immune Level Drain, Paralysis, Poison, Sleep. Living Constructs can be healed, and Confusion, critical hits, Dominate, flanking, Incite, Sneak Attack, and Stun affect them normally.
It's just that Living Constructs can be damaged by sneak attacks and crits, by definition. | |
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Sirohk
Commander
3813 Posts
USA
| | 12/06/2006 3:26 PM |
| Posted By Kilroy on 12/06/2006 11:10 AM Posted By Sirohk on 12/05/2006 3:06 PM
Yup. the Lord of Blades is Humanoid (Human) and thus NOT immune to sneak attack.Â
Not to nitpick, but the LoB is Construct (Living Construct), and the definition is Living construct is: DDM Glossary says:
Living Construct: This creature is a sort of Construct but has only limited immunities. It does not have Fearless. It has only the special ability Immune Level Drain, Paralysis, Poison, Sleep. Living Constructs can be healed, and Confusion, critical hits, Dominate, flanking, Incite, Sneak Attack, and Stun affect them normally. It's just that Living Constructs can be damaged by sneak attacks and crits, by definition.
I stand partially corrected (he is still susceptable to sneak attack).ÂÂ Another website (ie ddshoebox) had him listed as a Humanoid - Human and I used them as a quick reference the other night.Â
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Sirohk, the Bard of Heartstone
Knight of the Rahshasa's
And Crusader of the Zakya, Ak'chazar, Naztharune, and Naityan Rakshasa's | |
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