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Orion72
Underboss
1917 Posts
    
 | | 11/28/2006 8:27 AM |
| Let's take a look at some sample titans, one from each faction, and see how they compare to each other:
LG:
Couatl/Marut
+20 (20 + 10 sonic) plus one swiftness for same = 60 damage
CG:
Crow/Kord
+18 (30m) plus one swiftness for same = 60 damage
LE:
Forgepriest
+20/+15 (20m + 10 fire) = 60 damage
CE:
Marilith
+15 x6 (10m) = 60 damage
Cost:Â LG is most expensive at 116 pts; CG follows with 91 pts; LE 84; CE 73
Level: All level 10, but Marut is Fearless. LE can have Cmdr 6, CG Cmdr 5, CE Cmdr 5 and Wardrummer.
Speed: Kord wins at 10 (with access to fly or flight 8 spells and GMA); Marilith is 8 with Enhanced Mobility 2 and possibly a push from the Orc Wizard; FGFP is 6 with maybe a slide from Rakshasa; Marut is 6 with d-hop from War Weaver.
AC: Marut wins at 25 (buffable); FGFP at 23; Kord at 19 (buffable); Marilith 19
Hit Points: Raw hp, FGFP wins at 155, Bodyguard but no healing; Marilith at 105 has neither BG nor healing; Kord has 90 with outside chance of BG and a little healing; Marut has 75 with BG and maybe healing (via BG).
Type: Marut wins with Construct immunities; Kord and Marilith are vulnerable to banish/dismiss and Outsider hate; FGFP vulnerable to Giant hate
Resistances: Marut & Marilith have DR and SR. Marut has Resist 10 elements; Marilith has Immune Fire, Elec, Poison; FGFP has Vulnerable Cold (fixable with Dragonmark) and Immune Fire; Kord has no elemental resistance and slim chance of getting any.
Reach: All have Melee Reach 2 on a Large base
Other: Marut and Marilith have Blindsight; FGFP has Cleave (and Forge Blessing); Kord has Aggression for more damage; Marut has a spell that's almost never used and a weakness (Single-Minded) that's rarely exploited.
Final analysis: While Kord in LG has proven himself as a tier 1 piece, CG Kord tends to be overlooked. The Marut has also generally been passed by (in favor of Kord, ironically) while the FGFP and Marilith are still in the testing stages. All four titans seem to be fairly well-balanced in terms of point cost, with room in each faction for other beaters or support. LG generally tends to have the best titan support, while LE generally has better secondary beaters. CG/CE have decent but not fantastic options for either tech or other beaters.
What have your experiences been using or fighting against these titans, and how do you like to fill out their bands?
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alepulp
Underboss
1540 Posts
Manchester, England
| | 11/28/2006 10:03 AM |
| | it's not a titan, but don't forget the lean mean Frenzied Berserker. | |
One of these days WoTC will update their tournament page when I'm in the top 5... they never seem to do when I'm in that bracket :(
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IanB
Commander
3112 Posts
| | 11/28/2006 10:15 AM |
| | Cadaver collector, Aspect of Hextor for LE as well. | |
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swilde23
Skirmisher
23 Posts
| | 11/28/2006 10:39 AM |
| I also think it's worth noting the Dolorous Blow from the Oc Wizard for Marilith. From the handful of games I have played with her a 15% chance is fantastic. To top it off, the damage is magic. No need to waste an activation getting over the DR hurdle (but you already pointed that out).
I also like the other pieces in CE that enhance her damage (Lareth helps with crits, Doom Guard with wounded enemies).
To be fair, I do suppose that I kinda favor her 
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SYB
Warrior
328 Posts
| | 11/28/2006 10:40 AM |
| I'm surprised the Hill Giant Barbarian didn't make the cut (yes, technically he does 70 damage, but still seems to belong).
-SYB | |
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Ack
Underboss
1476 Posts
| | 11/28/2006 10:49 AM |
| Kord has no elemental resistance and slim chance of getting any. In LG he has the Couatl, in CG he has the Elven Pyromancer.
There are a few non-titans that can do 60 damage as well - CE beaters spring to mind. and dont forget the venerable (and craptacular) Ettin Skirmisher - only fig about to do 80 damage a round without SAs or support figs.
But a quick sort of Bifur by max melee damage (damn I love that program)
Ettin
Solar
Hill Giant Barbarian
Frost Giant
Cadaver Collector
FGFP
AoHextor
Marilith
Frenzied Berserker
Ogre Ravager
thats the 60+ club.. beyond that is a bunch more that can do 50+ | |
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Orion72
Underboss
1917 Posts
| | 11/28/2006 11:09 AM |
| I wasn't trying to list the entire 60+ club, just taking a sample of the most popular titans from each faction and seeing how they compare. My personal favorite is the Cadaver Collector, but he's damn hard to support (a little easier now with Dragonmarks). I didn't do the HGB for CE because I wanted to use one common thread, and I went with damage output.
There are obvious tactical differences among the four, one of the biggest being the first engagement round. Kord can start from 11 squares away, move and hit for 30, then get a swiftness for another 30, for 60 damage in the first phase of engagement. Marut can also take advantage of swiftness, while the Forgepriest only does 30 when he moves and hits. The Marilith is the weakest of the four there, being able to only get 10 damage when she moves and attacks (more than 2 squares). | | | |
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jooquase
Warrior
272 Posts
| | 11/28/2006 11:40 AM |
| | You also have some cheaper options, one that I like alot is the Couatl + Maug, if bassing, he also hits for 60 damage. it also comes up as cheap as the FireGiant, has better resistance and can benifit from other LG support. | |
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greyhaze
Warlord
7716 Posts
| | 11/28/2006 12:07 PM |
| Orc Champion 25 mgc dmg + 5 from his buddy... x2
What about Cleave? | |
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Called Shots: Frost Giant in Dangerous Delves. | |
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Orion72
Underboss
1917 Posts
| | 11/28/2006 12:16 PM |
| Posted By jooquase on 11/28/2006 11:40 AM
You also have some cheaper options, one that I like alot is the Couatl + Maug, if bassing, he also hits for 60 damage. it also comes up as cheap as the FireGiant, has better resistance and can benifit from other LG support. How does a Maug hit for 60 damage?
I wouldn't consider either the Orc Champ or Frenzerker to be titans, despite their high damage. Their point costs put them solidly in the 'beater' range, meaning you can build decent bands with three or four of them.
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greyhaze
Warlord
7716 Posts
| | 11/28/2006 12:21 PM |
| Ah, now I gotcha.
I think he meant that a Maug with SS can do 60... can't see it any other way though. | |
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Ack
Underboss
1476 Posts
| | 11/28/2006 12:49 PM |
| Fair enough - but including all the mega-hitters allows for consideration of "alternative" titans.. or playing a super beater as a titan perhaps. CC does have a bit more with the Heir as a support piece.. but I still think the cost is a bit too much.
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Orion72
Underboss
1917 Posts
| | 11/28/2006 12:54 PM |
| Oh I get it, Maug with two 20 attacks plus a swiftness for 20 = 60 damage.
I love the CC because I hate GAS. The more I hate GAS, the more I love the CCÂ | | | |
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PDK
Sneak
134 Posts
| | 11/28/2006 2:43 PM |
| i think one big comparison left out is defense. armor class, hit points, availability of bodyguard or healing, all very important factors
lol, im an edit, maybe i should read the entire post before replying | |
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addict of orcs, ogres, and anything that smashes | |
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warty_nosed_goblin
Underboss
1384 Posts
| | 11/28/2006 4:01 PM |
| Orion's list has a section for defense-durability already, and certainly comments on healing.
By the way, I can think of two pieces that can heal the fire giant forgepriest- goblin adept and human blackguard, not major but it might be worth noting, particularly since human blackguard is actually a pretty good commander for the forgepriest. | |
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While he is clearly insane, he does have a point. | |
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Sirohk
Commander
3938 Posts
USA
| | 11/28/2006 4:34 PM |
| Excellant discussion topic Orion72!Â
This ones going to take some time to digest, but off the top of my head...
LG:
Couatl/Marut
- Susceptable to fast hitter warbands that can take out the Maruts support
- Maruts low HP a problem and cannot be healed, but Budyguard can help
Couatl/Kord/CoDA
- The current Titan benchmark build to beat
- With CoDA Kord can be healed and wins INI for Agression often
- Key to beating is seperate Kord / Coutal / Bodyguard from eachother
CG:
Kord/Crow Shaman
- Kord in CG has problems (low AC, meh HP, no Commander 7, if routs is gone, no SS, no Bodyguard)
- Crow Shaman is very fragile
- Storm can bring in Dragonmark Bodyguard
LE:
Forgepriest
- Still in development
- Initial observations:
very tough, good damage, enough room for good support at cost, works well with LE commanders, lots of HP and fairly high HP
Aspect of Hextor (x4 attacks @ +12 for 15 magic, 60 damage)
- Definately needs Dragonmark for survivability
- Needs testing / finding right support pieces
- Low HP a problem
CE:
Marilith
- Still in development
- Initial observations:
fast, good damage, enough room for support pieces at cost, good support types (ie Orc Wizard), but semi low HP and AC can be a problem
That's my $0.02 off the top of my head.Â
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Sirohk, the Bard of Heartstone
Knight of the Rahshasa's
And Crusader of the Zakya, Ak'chazar, Naztharune, and Naityan Rakshasa's | |
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Gohu
Sneak
80 Posts
| | 11/28/2006 6:07 PM |
| Posted By Sirohk on 11/28/2006 4:34 PM
Excellant discussion topic Orion72!Â
This ones going to take some time to digest, but off the top of my head...
LG:
Couatl/Marut
- Susceptable to fast hitter warbands that can take out the Maruts support
- Maruts low HP a problem and cannot be healed, but Budyguard can help
Couatl/Kord/CoDA
- The current Titan benchmark build to beat
- With CoDA Kord can be healed and wins INI for Agression often
- Key to beating is seperate Kord / Coutal / Bodyguard from eachother
....
Aspect of Hextor (x4 attacks @ +12 for 15 magic, 60 damage)
- Definately needs Dragonmark for survivability
- Needs testing / finding right support pieces
- Low HP a problem
Excellent topic confirmed !! ;-)
I'm with you sirokh that the best Titan build is Couatl/Kord/CoD/Bodyguard. Almost fearless can have 115 extra life point (heal+BG) with agression can be devastating !! the only problem is to keep all those support together and close without getting in the way of each other.
As for hextor, the low AC combine with low life makes it a fragile titan. I was hopping that this piece would do better but  with a few game with it, it  was short of something. Need some testing but with the dragonmark and/or the Large green dragon maybe can do better. Has the same problem with MC than the FPFG but quicker and has more speed :S !
Â
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Vrecknidj
Warlord
10493 Posts
United States
| | 11/28/2006 6:20 PM |
| I both like and dislike titan bands.
I played a Marut / dual-Couatl band for the Midwest open tournament, a Marut/Couatl in the Ypsilanti qualifier, and the Kord/Couatl in the Niles qualifier. I really played a lot of GAS and Helmed Horror bands as I prepared though.
I actually prefer the multiple-hitter bands to the titan bands, but I find the titan bands to be powerful.
I have not had much experience with CE titans.
Dave | |
Knowledge Arcana editor issues 5-9, Phoenix Lore Magazine editor, assistant editor for Rite Publishing;
My Trade Thread and My Reference Thread; Winner of WBC IV, IX and XIII; Rule #0: bshugg is always right! | |
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Zyla
Underboss
1201 Posts
| | 11/28/2006 6:23 PM |
| | Ya forgot the non epic Balor+Orc Wizard, that can do 95 damage on 2 criticles | |
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MuscledDestroyer
Sergeant
435 Posts
Prospect Park, Pa
| | 11/28/2006 7:28 PM |
| | Doom Gaurd and Marilith. Cheap and gives 85 points of damage if she connects with all. | |
Champion of Grape Juice. Its delicious. | |
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MAURIZIO
Sergeant
960 Posts
Lima, Perú
| | 11/28/2006 10:54 PM |
| What about Centaur hero/crow Shaman ?
60 Melee dmg (with SS) and 45 range dmg (with SS), with cat grace, CH have 20 ac, and iimprove to range attack. Level 9,speed 10 HP 90 (if I remember well). And like Other CG it have buffing of Divine protection, Fly, Blur, etc...
The worst of it is it cost comparate with AoK.
What do you think about it?
Another think is LE have cure moderate wounds (goblin adept and Human Black Guard) is not much but is something. | |
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Low Key
Underboss
1231 Posts
| | 11/28/2006 11:47 PM |
| | Hextor badly needs the ability to move + full attack like the Marilith. Without it, I dont think its that viable. The biggest problem Marilith has is the same one; based units can hit once and move away if they get the chance. At least the Marilith has Improved mobility to make it slightly less of an problem. | |
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Thenameless
Warlord
12507 Posts
The Fortress of Solitude
| | 11/29/2006 12:13 AM |
| Agreed on this being a very nice topic of discussion. So far, I must agree that Korducopia still feels like the strongest build among those mentioned. It seems to have the greatest balance; long range strike capability (with aggression to boot), lots of extra HP with bodyguard and healing, high commander rating if wanted, and elemental resistance.
The Marilith does seem like a force contend with when packing a dolorous blow in her back pocket, but like all things chaotic, there is much more variance with her build than with Korducopia. | |
Over 270 successful online DDM trades. | |
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Sirohk
Commander
3938 Posts
USA
| | 11/29/2006 3:24 AM |
| Posted By Thenameless on 11/29/2006 12:13 AM
The Marilith does seem like a force contend with when packing a dolorous blow in her back pocket, but like all things chaotic, there is much more variance with her build than with Korducopia.
Ah, that dreaded word - VARIANCE.Â
IMO the bane of every warband. GAS and Belchers minimize that word with Unavoidable Strike and Belching. It looks like Storm and the Bralani with thier auto damage take a step towards minimizing that word.Â
With Titan warbnads, what makes them somewhat more effective is less variance because of less rolls of the d20 for hit, save, and MC with only 1 hitter (versus multi hitters rolling more d20's to hit, saves, and MC's)
What warband will be the next "big" thing?Â
This is sooo fun.Â
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Sirohk, the Bard of Heartstone
Knight of the Rahshasa's
And Crusader of the Zakya, Ak'chazar, Naztharune, and Naityan Rakshasa's | |
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Janos M.
Underboss
1015 Posts
Hamburg / GErmany
| | 11/29/2006 5:24 AM |
| I don't like Titans either because in most games it comes down to am I able to kill him or not. If so most of the time I will win the game. That's why I like Quad LE, dual Beater CG more.
But ontopic. The Forgepriest with Dragonmark will have showings in the next time. | |
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MuscledDestroyer
Sergeant
435 Posts
Prospect Park, Pa
| | 11/29/2006 8:17 AM |
| | I'm not saying it's a titan hitter at all but has anyone explored Elf Warmage's shocking grasp w/ Coautl I think you could whip out 70 damage. | |
Champion of Grape Juice. Its delicious. | |
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Vrecknidj
Warlord
10493 Posts
United States
| | 11/29/2006 8:24 AM |
| Posted By MuscledDestroyer on 11/29/2006 8:17 AM
I'm not saying it's a titan hitter at all but has anyone explored Elf Warmage's shocking grasp w/ Coautl I think you could whip out 70 damage. The shocking grasp is not a melee attack, and so cannot benefit from snake's swiftness, if that's what you're getting at.
Dave
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Knowledge Arcana editor issues 5-9, Phoenix Lore Magazine editor, assistant editor for Rite Publishing;
My Trade Thread and My Reference Thread; Winner of WBC IV, IX and XIII; Rule #0: bshugg is always right! | |
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Prince o the Raven Banner
Sergeant
606 Posts
| | 11/29/2006 9:29 AM |
| Great topic.
Until this thread, I'd not considered Dragonmarked Heir with Aspect of Hextor. This has a great deal of promise. Especially since the Sneak Attack is almost an automatic while Bodyguarding the Aspect.
On the Marilith, it should also be considered that she benefits Greatly from damage increase CFX. The Doomguard, Gnoll Seargent or Blademaster can squeeze 90 damage a round out this titan. Dolorous Blow can get that even Higher.
While the HGB is a beast, as a single titan type band, the Marilith is a stronger choice I think.
It's funny that even after a set full of CG Love. Kord, CG's deffinitive Titan is more at home in LG. I'd agree that he is overlooked in his own faction. Crows still crank out his output, a well timed Whirlwind may not be tourney viable, but it is still devastating, and CG offers more ways to bump inititive than LG, all on strong support figures.
I think the era of the Marut may be ending, or at least going on hiatus. Energy Immunities hurt it too much, and perhaps the new "willing to follow" cheap commanders offer a stronger possibility to exploit his handicap. Construct is still big in Constructed, but his faction offers cheaper alternatives now as well as Quad style builds that weren't quite possible before.
The Forgepriest Hasn't entered my thinking much, but then again I don't have one yet.  | |
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iluvxtina
Underboss
1501 Posts
Spain
| | 11/29/2006 10:26 AM |
| | the most powerful titan in the whole game has been the orc champion hands down.One time I caused 150 damage to my opponent,s warband only with him in one round.And for only 39 points!!!Show me another creature which can do the same for the same cost.The answer?None.Is much more than the called titans | |
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Vrecknidj
Warlord
10493 Posts
United States
| | 11/29/2006 12:12 PM |
| It's funny. I see where you're coming from, iluvxtina, but, I don't think of an Orc Champion as a titan simply because he doesn't cost enough. Tordek is about the cut-off. I mean, it's not too hard to get two Frenzied Berserkers in a band, and so I don't think of them as Titans either.
For me, a Titan is a costly, stand-alone hitter. The simple fact that you can put four Orc Champions in a band, tells me that the piece isn't a Titan.
Don't get me wrong, it certainly is a hitter, and a powerful one at that. But, I'm just using "Titan" differently than some others, I think.
Dave | |
Knowledge Arcana editor issues 5-9, Phoenix Lore Magazine editor, assistant editor for Rite Publishing;
My Trade Thread and My Reference Thread; Winner of WBC IV, IX and XIII; Rule #0: bshugg is always right! | |
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Prince o the Raven Banner
Sergeant
606 Posts
| | 11/30/2006 3:28 AM |
| It's funny. Prior to Underdark, I wouldn't really consider anything a Titan that cost less than 80 or 90 points. After UD I sorta lowered the bar to 70ish. Now, with Tordek we have a new category, the "Mini Titan". So now the cut off is 60 points.
The recent sets have pretty much shelfed all those old 100+ pointers. The current tech options are just to expensive. I haven't heard anyone mention those old standards like Aspect of Bane or the Frost Giant in ages. Once ina blue moon someone laments the loss of dominance of the LSD but that's about it.
Will we get to a point where the tech/support cost nearly as much as our heavy beaters? The Warweaver and Spellscale are already close to the "economy" beaters.
I feel ya Iluvxtina, the OC is Brutal, that is a damage to cost ratio we will, likely, never see again. His performance is titan calibre but his cost is heavy beater. Wish I had 1, just 1. | |
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TheDarklion
Sneak
131 Posts
| | 11/30/2006 8:14 AM |
| Posted By Vrecknidj on 11/29/2006 12:12 PM
It's funny. I see where you're coming from, iluvxtina, but, I don't think of an Orc Champion as a titan simply because he doesn't cost enough. Tordek is about the cut-off. I mean, it's not too hard to get two Frenzied Berserkers in a band, and so I don't think of them as Titans either.
For me, a Titan is a costly, stand-alone hitter. The simple fact that you can put four Orc Champions in a band, tells me that the piece isn't a Titan.
Don't get me wrong, it certainly is a hitter, and a powerful one at that. But, I'm just using "Titan" differently than some others, I think.
Dave
I define titan as this.
If the 1 key unit... the titan dies
you lose.
Thats a titan band =) | |
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Orion72
Underboss
1917 Posts
| | 11/30/2006 8:47 AM |
| I guess I should have done this in the first post... I define 'titan' vs 'beater' by point cost. That's it, plain and simple. FGFP costs 84, he's a titan. Beholder costs 83, it's a titan. Orc Champ costs 39, it's not a titan.
Note that in Epic, the FGFP is no longer a titan. It's a beater.
Each player will have his own definition of what a 'titan' is, but it's going to be hard for us to communicate when we're using the same word to talk about different things. | | | |
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Zoons
Underboss
1067 Posts
| | 11/30/2006 9:33 AM |
| I say a titan is any piece where it would be impossible to have 3 of them in the band. Therefore, the cut-off is between 66 and 67 points.
They're my rules. I make 'em up. :p | |
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Sirohk
Commander
3938 Posts
USA
| | 11/30/2006 4:28 PM |
| Posted By Zoons on 11/30/2006 9:33 AM
I say a titan is any piece where it would be impossible to have 3 of them in the band. Therefore, the cut-off is between 66 and 67 points.
They're my rules. I make 'em up. :p
I'll second that.Â
I'd also like to add that IMO a Titan in 200 point construct should be Large in size.Â
That said, Tordek is still a mini-Titan. Maybe a Teen-Titan.Â
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Sirohk, the Bard of Heartstone
Knight of the Rahshasa's
And Crusader of the Zakya, Ak'chazar, Naztharune, and Naityan Rakshasa's | |
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Lord_rock
Underboss
2045 Posts
Portland OR
| | 11/30/2006 5:38 PM |
| | is an aspect of moridin a titan then??? orog warlord??? lord of blades??? | |
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Arcane Archer 30, Centaur Hero 67, Human Cleric of Bane 25, Gold Champion 34, Death Knight 52, Goblin Blackblade 9, Silentwolf Goblin 7, Orc Raider 10, Dwarf axefighter 9, Healer 9, Thaskor 65, Aspect of Demogorgon 71, Ogre 9, Fire Giant 79, Human Wanderer 7, Drunken Master 18, Barghest 12, Longstider Barbarian 27, Longtooth Barbarian 22, Frost Giant 76, Ravenous Vampire 42, Large Earth Elemental: priceless | |
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TheDarklion
Sneak
131 Posts
| | 12/01/2006 9:59 AM |
| Aspect of Moradin is a titan.
lil more defense then offense tho | |
Crush your enimies, see them driven before you, and hear the lementations of thier women | |
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Zoons
Underboss
1067 Posts
| | 12/01/2006 10:07 AM |
| | Yes. Yes. and.... Yes. Just because a piece is a Titan, doesn't mean it is good. That Stone pile of poot from GOL is definitely a Titan, but would anyone in their right mind play it (Well, more than once)? | |
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JohnnyFive
Warrior
207 Posts
| | 12/01/2006 10:07 AM |
| I guess by that definition, the Divine Crusader of Corellon is a Titan too. Though not a very good one. 
While it's hard to dispute the success of the LG Korducopia, I really think that the CG version (featuring Storm, Dragonmark Heir, and a Crow Shaman) doesn't compare too poorly. Up to three 20 point heals (or two, if you wanna make Kord fly), +2 AC (from the Shaman's Cat's Grace spell), and energy immunity and Bodyguard from the DHoH make for a pretty formidable combo. Not to mention the added bonus of having a 20 point line of auto-damage in your back pocket to use against GAS warbands and the like. | |
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Lord_rock
Underboss
2045 Posts
Portland OR
| | 12/01/2006 6:08 PM |
| | Not saying that any of those aren't good... I loved loved loved the Orog when he came out... I still think he's solid... needs more orc minion options these days and is missing "something" still... i've been playing around with him lately but havn't come up with anything just yet... | |
Rock Bottom Pricing:
Arcane Archer 30, Centaur Hero 67, Human Cleric of Bane 25, Gold Champion 34, Death Knight 52, Goblin Blackblade 9, Silentwolf Goblin 7, Orc Raider 10, Dwarf axefighter 9, Healer 9, Thaskor 65, Aspect of Demogorgon 71, Ogre 9, Fire Giant 79, Human Wanderer 7, Drunken Master 18, Barghest 12, Longstider Barbarian 27, Longtooth Barbarian 22, Frost Giant 76, Ravenous Vampire 42, Large Earth Elemental: priceless | |
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