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| | Author | Messages | |
vanrulzz
Commander
2778 Posts
    
¯\(°_o)/¯
 | | 12/05/2006 4:42 PM |
| | I would like to know what some of the tier 1 bands are as of today. | | | |
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Gunthar
Commander
2938 Posts
| | 12/05/2006 8:06 PM |
| | Try building some, throw some ideas out and don't be freakin' lazy. Everything is in flux right now anyway. | |
Champion of Prit(Wemic vindication is here)
Minneapolis/St. Paul area
Completed trades: Aspect of Cheese (Love that moniker), Tickparasite, Elderthing, Lalato, Sodj, Grimoire, SmilinIrish, Zeb, RWarehall,Link, wikkawikkawa, Auramancer, Rommers, HK, Ivid5,Qillan_dvra, Puggins, Arcabius, Ironfist Boulderbender, Robby, Corim Danex, monster_slayer, DNDJUNKIE, Kelemvor, Krush, ckissee, Massawyrm, hockey fan, Wish, Uninspiring Lieutenant, vtloon x2, Vrecknidj, Darthpoke, WakeXX, AnarionZell, lycusmike, papabear5 and umpteen local trades with board members
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MuscledDestroyer
Sergeant
435 Posts
Prospect Park, Pa
| | 12/05/2006 8:34 PM |
| | That's not cool. If I knew I'd tell ya . Go to Merric's page. People have already put some of them there. | |
Champion of Grape Juice. Its delicious. | |
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vanrulzz
Commander
2778 Posts
¯\(°_o)/¯
| | 12/05/2006 8:55 PM |
| | i was just trying to see what people are playing and possibly start a good disscusion. Whats with the negative reaction? | | | |
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Chairman7w
Sergeant
484 Posts
| | 12/05/2006 9:06 PM |
| Well, some people don't like the fact that many others simply wait to see what the "good" players are using, then copy those bands.
Some feel that "copying" netbands is simply lazy and uncreative, and allows less skilled players to compete at a higher level than they really deserve.
So when someone shamelessly askes, "What's the curernt Tier-1 bands?" some are turned off. | |
Dr. Simon: A phrase that's encoded in her brain, that makes her fall asleep. If I speak the words, "Eta...
Jayne: Well don't say it!
Zoë: It only works on her, Jayne. | |
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MuscledDestroyer
Sergeant
435 Posts
Prospect Park, Pa
| | 12/05/2006 9:27 PM |
| | Yea some take themselves too seriously. I like winning with a home grown warband too but I'm not making a vaccine. | |
Champion of Grape Juice. Its delicious. | |
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MAURIZIO
Sergeant
960 Posts
Lima, Perú
| | 12/05/2006 9:55 PM |
| I dont know about it! But in my country only one guy is a proved Copy Cat. The rest like to build warbands in our posibilities, for example in the last construted competition we have a lots of Cadaver Collectors, arcane ballista with high AC miniatures, 3 belchers warband and a old fashion Inspiring Berserker (the copy cat) who wins the tournament.
But i won the past tournament with my anticadaver collector warband (home made): Tordek, Justicator and Justice Archon.
But I´m still like to know what are the new nice warband who plays in the big and important tournament around the world.
In my country a 4 helmed horror warband is impossible to make for the high prices of that, but we still work with what we have, and we enjoy that way. Imagine a little league with all same warbands (like GAS) it would be Awful, but we dont have one of those warbands.
In other countries dont use Dwarf Articer as much as we use in tournament.
Well, I´m finish with these, well play and enjoy
Someone knows where i will find the 200 points toolkit Updated with Bloodwar figures? | |
Againts the Giants Called Shot: Cattie Bri.
Dungeon of Dread Called Shot: Cockatrice.
Todas las batallas en la vida sirven para enseñarnos algo, inclusive aquellas que perdemos. Paulo Coehlo
"DnD teaches you a valuable lesson, always loot the bodies of your dead enemies"
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| Knight of the
Round Table
Thenameless
Warlord
12507 Posts
The Fortress of Solitude
| | 12/06/2006 12:40 AM |
| | Eye of Gruumsh + 3 Orc Champions can probably still win any day of the week. | |
Over 270 successful online DDM trades. | |
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Low Key
Underboss
1231 Posts
| | 12/06/2006 1:24 AM |
| | The meta is somewhat unstable at the moment thanks to Blood Wars. People are still trying all sorts of wierd stuff and trying to find good synergies. | |
Champion of the Sarrukh | |
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kumaiti
Warrior
201 Posts
Moscow - Russia
| | 12/06/2006 4:08 AM |
| The Tier1 here in Moscow/Russia is Shuluth + Cadaver Collector.
It is like "if you can't beat that, rethink your band"...
Another day a complete noob (first tournment) won a tournment against fairly skilled oponents with sub-optimal bands using that.... I think she did it again last weekend, but I am not sure because I left before the end. | |
You know when you are playing too much DDM when you read the Art of War and start wondering how that applies to DDM... | |
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Chad the DragonLordofAiur
Underboss
1085 Posts
Southeast PA
| | 12/06/2006 7:18 AM |
| I'll be the first to throw one out there as a new tier one warband:
Moon Elf Fighter
Shadow Dancer x4
Gnome Trickster
Devis
Timber Wolf
or
Storm Silverhand
Shadow Dancer x4
Gnome Trickster
Xeph Warrior
I believe it is strong enough to defeat Korducopia and GAS. If this band becomes popular then quad HH or triple HH will make a comeback. | |
Member of Team Amish
3rd Place in 2007 Constructed World Championship
My combined DDM Skirmish record of all games ever played in all formats.
486 - 188 - 4 | |
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Zoons
Underboss
1067 Posts
| | 12/06/2006 8:02 AM |
| I think that may be another reason people are reluctant to answer. With the meta unstable while people are trying to see which synergies are actually as powerful as they seem, there is no clear favorite, since you can't be sure even a winning warband now will continue to be strong against whatever field settles in as the concensus of current "tier 1" bands.
Right now, only history can provide hints at a gamut, which should certainly include such broad things as:
Korducopia
GAS
LE Quad
Construct heavy LE or LG
Sacred Watcher combinations
CE Hitters
Invisible Gnome CG Bands
Shadowdancers
LE/LG Titan with bodygard(s)
+ 8-10 other single pieces trying to be explored.
As many have said, it's wide open right now. | |
Never teach a pig to sing. It's a waste of time and it annoys the pig.
Champion of the Blink Dog. | |
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froffenhoffer
Sergeant
702 Posts
| | 12/06/2006 2:28 PM |
| The meta is in flux. Korducopia beats belchers, as does FGFP. GAs beats kord. Marut/HH beats Gas. COuatl marut beats that. Shadowdancer beats marut and Kordocopia. ETC. Belchers beat alot of things. Horrors beat dancers and so on... this isnt even takin the cad into acount.
Its like a huge game of rock paper scissors! | |
Champion of Wildshaped druid in with natural spell!
Thus said froffenhoffer
The Official through the heart, and im to blame archer. | |
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Sirohk
Commander
3938 Posts
USA
| | 12/06/2006 3:03 PM |
| Posted By Zoons on 12/06/2006 8:02 AM
I think that may be another reason people are reluctant to answer. With the meta unstable while people are trying to see which synergies are actually as powerful as they seem, there is no clear favorite, since you can't be sure even a winning warband now will continue to be strong against whatever field settles in as the concensus of current "tier 1" bands.
Right now, only history can provide hints at a gamut, which should certainly include such broad things as:
Korducopia
GAS
LE Quad
Construct heavy LE or LG
Sacred Watcher combinations
CE Hitters
Invisible Gnome CG Bands
Shadowdancers
LE/LG Titan with bodygard(s)
+ 8-10 other single pieces trying to be explored.
As many have said, it's wide open right now.Â
Zoons seems to have covered the major tier 1' of recent past and what folks have come up with from BW.Â
I would like to offer the following to be included:
-Â multi Belcher warbands, especially if they include a Marilith in place of a Belcher / Ogre Ravager
- LG construct warbands (Kolyarut, Maug, tbd)
- Vlaakith warbands (shes undead and can wreck havoc, if only she had some better pieces)
That's my $0.02 worth.Â
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Sirohk, the Bard of Heartstone
Knight of the Rahshasa's
And Crusader of the Zakya, Ak'chazar, Naztharune, and Naityan Rakshasa's | |
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MAURIZIO
Sergeant
960 Posts
Lima, Perú
| | 12/06/2006 4:12 PM |
| Posted By Sirohk on 12/06/2006 3:03 PM Posted By Zoons on 12/06/2006 8:02 AM
I think that may be another reason people are reluctant to answer. With the meta unstable while people are trying to see which synergies are actually as powerful as they seem, there is no clear favorite, since you can't be sure even a winning warband now will continue to be strong against whatever field settles in as the concensus of current "tier 1" bands.
Right now, only history can provide hints at a gamut, which should certainly include such broad things as:
Korducopia
GAS
LE Quad
Construct heavy LE or LG
Sacred Watcher combinations
CE Hitters
Invisible Gnome CG Bands
Shadowdancers
LE/LG Titan with bodygard(s)
+ 8-10 other single pieces trying to be explored.
As many have said, it's wide open right now. Zoons seems to have covered the major tier 1' of recent past and what folks have come up with from BW. I would like to offer the following to be included: - multi Belcher warbands, especially if they include a Marilith in place of a Belcher / Ogre Ravager - LG construct warbands (Kolyarut, Maug, tbd) - Vlaakith warbands (shes undead and can wreck havoc, if only she had some better pieces) That's my $0.02 worth.Â
Yeah, I saw blood war make tier-1 warband back to table, Multifirebelchers is not as good as it was. Now Marilith appears like the new Star in this warband.
Multi Maug in LG is a powerful band with all of support LG have.
Maybe with more tournaments, we would have an Idea of what would be the new miniatures for the Toolkit.Â
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Againts the Giants Called Shot: Cattie Bri.
Dungeon of Dread Called Shot: Cockatrice.
Todas las batallas en la vida sirven para enseñarnos algo, inclusive aquellas que perdemos. Paulo Coehlo
"DnD teaches you a valuable lesson, always loot the bodies of your dead enemies"
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Gunthar
Commander
2938 Posts
| | 12/06/2006 7:24 PM |
| | Korducopia does NOT beat belchers very well if teh belcher player knows how to position and protect the wardrummer. | |
Champion of Prit(Wemic vindication is here)
Minneapolis/St. Paul area
Completed trades: Aspect of Cheese (Love that moniker), Tickparasite, Elderthing, Lalato, Sodj, Grimoire, SmilinIrish, Zeb, RWarehall,Link, wikkawikkawa, Auramancer, Rommers, HK, Ivid5,Qillan_dvra, Puggins, Arcabius, Ironfist Boulderbender, Robby, Corim Danex, monster_slayer, DNDJUNKIE, Kelemvor, Krush, ckissee, Massawyrm, hockey fan, Wish, Uninspiring Lieutenant, vtloon x2, Vrecknidj, Darthpoke, WakeXX, AnarionZell, lycusmike, papabear5 and umpteen local trades with board members
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Faragdar the Wise
Commander
3547 Posts
Albuquerque, NM, USA
| | 12/06/2006 8:04 PM |
| | Dragonmark-powered Korducopia does, though. | |
"Before God we are all equally wise - and equally foolish." - Albert Einstein
Champion of Myopic Half-Orcs
Winner, WBC X | |
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Azalin
Sneak
76 Posts
| | 12/06/2006 11:23 PM |
| Posted By Sirohk on 12/06/2006 3:03 PM Posted By Zoons on 12/06/2006 8:02 AM
I think that may be another reason people are reluctant to answer. With the meta unstable while people are trying to see which synergies are actually as powerful as they seem, there is no clear favorite, since you can't be sure even a winning warband now will continue to be strong against whatever field settles in as the concensus of current "tier 1" bands.
Right now, only history can provide hints at a gamut, which should certainly include such broad things as:
Korducopia
GAS
LE Quad
Construct heavy LE or LG
Sacred Watcher combinations
CE Hitters
Invisible Gnome CG Bands
Shadowdancers
LE/LG Titan with bodygard(s)
+ 8-10 other single pieces trying to be explored.
As many have said, it's wide open right now. Zoons seems to have covered the major tier 1' of recent past and what folks have come up with from BW. I would like to offer the following to be included: - multi Belcher warbands, especially if they include a Marilith in place of a Belcher / Ogre Ravager - LG construct warbands (Kolyarut, Maug, tbd) - Vlaakith warbands (shes undead and can wreck havoc, if only she had some better pieces) That's my $0.02 worth.Â
I agree Vlaakith is nasty...so i really hope CE gets a good undead beater that fits in nicely with vlaakith. Then I think you'd see tier 1 Vlaakith warbands showing up.
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CHAMPION OF ULTROLOTH, YUGOLOTH | |
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froffenhoffer
Sergeant
702 Posts
| | 12/06/2006 11:34 PM |
| Posted By Gunthar on 12/06/2006 7:24 PM
Korducopia does NOT beat belchers very well if teh belcher player knows how to position and protect the wardrummer.
If kords played WFBG already why not switch do the deneith as faradagar says correctly. | |
Champion of Wildshaped druid in with natural spell!
Thus said froffenhoffer
The Official through the heart, and im to blame archer. | |
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Gunthar
Commander
2938 Posts
| | 12/07/2006 4:54 AM |
| Swapping the warforged for the dragonmark heir does definitely swing the match in favor of Kord, but then you have less flexibility with adctivations vs. other stuff by using the extra two points. In mirror matches especially, fodder is important.
You also then set up a redundent effect which is less efficient in 90% of your other matches. I like the Dragonmark Heir as much as anyone, but the Korducopia mod is just not worth it, I feel. | |
Champion of Prit(Wemic vindication is here)
Minneapolis/St. Paul area
Completed trades: Aspect of Cheese (Love that moniker), Tickparasite, Elderthing, Lalato, Sodj, Grimoire, SmilinIrish, Zeb, RWarehall,Link, wikkawikkawa, Auramancer, Rommers, HK, Ivid5,Qillan_dvra, Puggins, Arcabius, Ironfist Boulderbender, Robby, Corim Danex, monster_slayer, DNDJUNKIE, Kelemvor, Krush, ckissee, Massawyrm, hockey fan, Wish, Uninspiring Lieutenant, vtloon x2, Vrecknidj, Darthpoke, WakeXX, AnarionZell, lycusmike, papabear5 and umpteen local trades with board members
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Orion72
Underboss
1917 Posts
| | 12/07/2006 5:44 AM |
| | Stormucopia looks to be strong, and could come out as a top band. It's basically Korducopia that keeps Kord in his native CG: Storm Silverhand, AoK, Dragonmark, Crow Shaman core. Flying Kord is a major pain! | | | |
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Sirohk
Commander
3938 Posts
USA
| | 12/07/2006 3:04 PM |
| Posted By Orion72 on 12/07/2006 5:44 AM
Stormucopia looks to be strong, and could come out as a top band. It's basically Korducopia that keeps Kord in his native CG: Storm Silverhand, AoK, Dragonmark, Crow Shaman core. Flying Kord is a major pain!
And in this case (Stormucopia), Kord flies at speed 10! Very scary. Very scary indeed!Â
Stormucopia vs Kordacopia
Storm 57 pts                           CoDA 45 pts
Kord 65 pts                             Kord 65 pts
Crow Shaman 26 pts              Couatl 42 pts
Dragonmark 34 pts                 WFBG 32 pts
18 pts left for filler                   16 pts left for filler
SS (up to x9)Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â SS (up to x6)
Healing (x1 @ 20 pts)Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Healing (x2 @ 30 pts)
Ini & Commander = +4Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Ini & Comander = +7 (greater chance to get Aggression)
Kord Flies @ 10Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Kord walks
Only 1 Energy Immunity           Resist 10 to all energy types
Storm SA's (spells & SF)Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â CoDA spells & Couatl spells
Kord MC +14Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Kord MC +17
Both look pretty good in different ways, but IMO I like the LG version a little better.Â
Both look very susceptable to getting beat by Shadowdancer warbands.Â
Which to choose IMO will depend on the meta you think you'll face.Â
Cheers.Â
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Sirohk, the Bard of Heartstone
Knight of the Rahshasa's
And Crusader of the Zakya, Ak'chazar, Naztharune, and Naityan Rakshasa's | |
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SYB
Warrior
328 Posts
| | 12/07/2006 4:55 PM |
| Storm is a sorcerer. So, even with flying, she can heal Kord 2 times @ 20 (3 times w/o flying).
-SYB | |
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| Knight of the
Round Table
Thenameless
Warlord
12507 Posts
The Fortress of Solitude
| | 12/07/2006 10:02 PM |
| | That +3 to Kord's morale check in LG seems pretty important, because he should have the HP to win the fight if he passes, but he probably won't have enough HP if he fails. At least the warbands in the two different factions, using the same titan, do have faction flavour. The CG version seems slightly more offensive and definitely more mobile, while the LG version seems to increase defence, reliability, and commander rating. | |
Over 270 successful online DDM trades. | |
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Gunthar
Commander
2938 Posts
| | 12/08/2006 5:54 AM |
| | Storm's a far better fighter than anything you have left in the LG version so I do see a strength in it, especially against a ballista. | |
Champion of Prit(Wemic vindication is here)
Minneapolis/St. Paul area
Completed trades: Aspect of Cheese (Love that moniker), Tickparasite, Elderthing, Lalato, Sodj, Grimoire, SmilinIrish, Zeb, RWarehall,Link, wikkawikkawa, Auramancer, Rommers, HK, Ivid5,Qillan_dvra, Puggins, Arcabius, Ironfist Boulderbender, Robby, Corim Danex, monster_slayer, DNDJUNKIE, Kelemvor, Krush, ckissee, Massawyrm, hockey fan, Wish, Uninspiring Lieutenant, vtloon x2, Vrecknidj, Darthpoke, WakeXX, AnarionZell, lycusmike, papabear5 and umpteen local trades with board members
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Chad the DragonLordofAiur
Underboss
1085 Posts
Southeast PA
| | 12/08/2006 7:29 AM |
| One other difference is the Couatl has the Sonic Orbs which bypass SR.
I do like the flying Kord idea and the one time I tried it I won with it. But the band I ran that time was filled with archers and I had no bodyguard. | |
Member of Team Amish
3rd Place in 2007 Constructed World Championship
My combined DDM Skirmish record of all games ever played in all formats.
486 - 188 - 4 | |
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SYB
Warrior
328 Posts
| | 12/08/2006 8:44 AM |
| Another thing to keep in mind. The Storm-Kord band also has countersong. While this doesn't do much in the mirror match. It kicks the stuffing out of GAS. And Storm is the kind of countersong that is NOT easy to kill. So, the question is, is it worth lowering the odds of winning the "mirror match" to significantly increase your odds of beating GAS?
-SYB | |
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Gunthar
Commander
2938 Posts
| | 12/15/2006 6:48 AM |
| | Or nerfing teh Mariliths damage to 10/swing vs. 15? | |
Champion of Prit(Wemic vindication is here)
Minneapolis/St. Paul area
Completed trades: Aspect of Cheese (Love that moniker), Tickparasite, Elderthing, Lalato, Sodj, Grimoire, SmilinIrish, Zeb, RWarehall,Link, wikkawikkawa, Auramancer, Rommers, HK, Ivid5,Qillan_dvra, Puggins, Arcabius, Ironfist Boulderbender, Robby, Corim Danex, monster_slayer, DNDJUNKIE, Kelemvor, Krush, ckissee, Massawyrm, hockey fan, Wish, Uninspiring Lieutenant, vtloon x2, Vrecknidj, Darthpoke, WakeXX, AnarionZell, lycusmike, papabear5 and umpteen local trades with board members
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Calicles
Sneak
51 Posts
| | 12/15/2006 7:03 AM |
| | I dont know from "Tier 1", but I think the majority of the bands listed so far will get pummled mercilessly by ranged bands on the Dragondown Grotto.  I think to be competitive in the new environment any warband must have a way of performing well on the Grotto map and must include figures that give it a reasonable opportunity to defeat range-oriented warbands playing on their choosen map. | |
Champion of Sehanine Moonbow | |
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Gunthar
Commander
2938 Posts
| | 12/15/2006 7:09 AM |
| | Ranged on Grotto isn't so strong right now, though. The invisible Shadowdancer wave is still going on. That KILLS ranged bands if it shows up. They can walk up invisible, whack the archers or ballista commander, and then run away as they are way up on points. | |
Champion of Prit(Wemic vindication is here)
Minneapolis/St. Paul area
Completed trades: Aspect of Cheese (Love that moniker), Tickparasite, Elderthing, Lalato, Sodj, Grimoire, SmilinIrish, Zeb, RWarehall,Link, wikkawikkawa, Auramancer, Rommers, HK, Ivid5,Qillan_dvra, Puggins, Arcabius, Ironfist Boulderbender, Robby, Corim Danex, monster_slayer, DNDJUNKIE, Kelemvor, Krush, ckissee, Massawyrm, hockey fan, Wish, Uninspiring Lieutenant, vtloon x2, Vrecknidj, Darthpoke, WakeXX, AnarionZell, lycusmike, papabear5 and umpteen local trades with board members
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Orion72
Underboss
1917 Posts
| | 12/15/2006 7:10 AM |
| You mean like 4 Bralanis? You just got lucky with them. All 5 games. Just luck.
It's true, the ranged threat is back with a vengeance thanks to the DDG map. There are two main flavors - 'shoot and scoot', which is usually CG, and 'pummel mercilessly', which is the Ballista. Competitive bands these days need a way to get across the Grotto without dying from multiple archers or multiple Ballista shots - all in addition to what they needed before, like ways of dealing with Kord, ways of handling GAS, ways of coping with SWarms, etc.
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Low Key
Underboss
1231 Posts
| | 12/15/2006 7:17 AM |
| I would think that CG-mixed warbands are considerable threat at this moment.
I mean, you got Wand Expert, Celestial Pegasus, Rikka, Half-Ogre Barbarian, Storm Archer, Bralani Eladrin, Air Genasi, Shadowdancer, Gnome Trickster, etc and thats only the 30 point price range! Then you get all the amazing tech, 50p beaters, various fighting/flexible commanders and some of the best fodder in the game.
Its nearly impossible to really prepare a hate-band for the multitude of different builds CG can pull off at the moment. And with all the CG warbands that can do both ranged and melee with equal ability, you got a serious competitior. I'm actually slightly scared about facing CG-mixed, since I cant prepare for it very well.
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Champion of the Sarrukh | |
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Chairman7w
Sergeant
484 Posts
| | 12/15/2006 8:24 PM |
| | Man - who woulda thought that CG would be firmly entrenched in the Tier-1 talk so quickly. I love it! | |
Dr. Simon: A phrase that's encoded in her brain, that makes her fall asleep. If I speak the words, "Eta...
Jayne: Well don't say it!
Zoë: It only works on her, Jayne. | |
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iluvxtina
Underboss
1501 Posts
Spain
| | 12/16/2006 1:41 AM |
| | For me:
200 points:
githzerai+young master
helmed horrors+dark moon monk
Couatl+kord
couatl+marut+arcane ballista
firebelchers
archmage+inspiring marshall
eye+champions+wardrummer
dual berserkers+inspiring
shadowdancers
hill giants+wardrummer
500:
tiamat+heir deneith
bahamut+spellscale
tordek epic+couatl+warweaver
epic slaughterstone+artificer
dual fomorian+orc druid
epic marilyn+orc wizard (tiefling captain)
epic vlaakith+orc wizard
I have seen these warbands in my last tournament.I have missed a lot,indeed but these are in.I hope have help you. | |
LOVE THIS GIRL | |
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Sirohk
Commander
3938 Posts
USA
| | 12/16/2006 4:47 AM |
| Anti ranged bands = Sacred Watcher. Incorporal is a pain in the backside.Â
Speed also can help versus ranged bands on the DDG.Â
Don't want to face ranged bands on the DDG, make sure your commander has a high rating and win map initiative.Â
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Sirohk, the Bard of Heartstone
Knight of the Rahshasa's
And Crusader of the Zakya, Ak'chazar, Naztharune, and Naityan Rakshasa's | |
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Vrecknidj
Warlord
10493 Posts
United States
| | 12/16/2006 5:31 AM |
| Posted By Chairman7w on 12/15/2006 8:24 PM
Man - who woulda thought that CG would be firmly entrenched in the Tier-1 talk so quickly. I love it! There are, it appears, several different ways to assemble a competitive CG band. I wonder, though, whether we're currently at the point where CG is being seen as a spoiler faction. In other words, people are still predominately worried about several of the other tier-1 bands (Kord/Couatl, LE quad, etc.), but now have to consider what they'll do against certain CG matchups on certain maps.
I mean, the implication is that a ranged band on the DDG is a threat--but, it's not nearly as much of a threat on a different map. The invisible Bralanis or invisible Shadowdancers combos are a worry, but generally against certain types of bands (though I'm not so convinced that their effectiveness is derailed if they don't get their maps).
So, is CG a spoiler faction right now? (Disclaimer: everyone knows that a strong spoiler band can win a tournament, violating the basic premise of a spoiler band, but the general idea here is that spoiler bands wreck other bands' chances more than they actually come through on their own.)
Dave
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Knowledge Arcana editor issues 5-9, Phoenix Lore Magazine editor, assistant editor for Rite Publishing;
My Trade Thread and My Reference Thread; Winner of WBC IV, IX and XIII; Rule #0: bshugg is always right! | |
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SYB
Warrior
328 Posts
| | 12/16/2006 6:41 AM |
| To answer your question Dave, I think CG has been THE spoiler faction since Angelfire. I have one word for you: Archmage.
And yes, I think CG's "spoiler-ness" (wow, that is an ugly word) has increased many times over with Blood War. But, CG can still make a number of very competitive, very strong warbands that aren't spoilers, too.
What I think is cropping up is an odd phenomenon. There is a general belief among many of the stronger players of DDM that a warband has to have "answers" for every tier 1 archetype to be considered tier 1. Personally, I think this is hogwash (yes, I actually said hogwash), but that doesn't change the sentiment. CG bands, due to the flavor of the faction, often tend to be very focused bands that have one VERY powerful trick, but also have a noticable and exploitable weakness (if they lose map initiative, against specific types of warbands, against specific units, etc.). This means that they don't fit the standard concept of tier 1 bands. Since they don't fit the standard definition of tier 1 bands, but manage to beat a fair number of tier 1 bands consistently, they get labeled "spoiler", rather than tier 1.
-SYB | |
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Vrecknidj
Warlord
10493 Posts
United States
| | 12/16/2006 7:08 AM |
| Posted By SYB on 12/16/2006 6:41 AM
To answer your question Dave, I think CG has been THE spoiler faction since Angelfire. I have one word for you: Archmage. Agreed. In my previous post, I almost wrote "Seriously, does anyone think the Archmage could have won significantly more qualifiers than it did?" And yes, I think CG's "spoiler-ness" (wow, that is an ugly word) has increased many times over with Blood War. But, CG can still make a number of very competitive, very strong warbands that aren't spoilers, too. Agreed. What I think is cropping up is an odd phenomenon. There is a general belief among many of the stronger players of DDM that a warband has to have "answers" for every tier 1 archetype to be considered tier 1. Personally, I think this is hogwash (yes, I actually said hogwash), but that doesn't change the sentiment. CG bands, due to the flavor of the faction, often tend to be very focused bands that have one VERY powerful trick, but also have a noticable and exploitable weakness (if they lose map initiative, against specific types of warbands, against specific units, etc.). This means that they don't fit the standard concept of tier 1 bands. Since they don't fit the standard definition of tier 1 bands, but manage to beat a fair number of tier 1 bands consistently, they get labeled "spoiler", rather than tier 1. The only band I lost to in the Swiss rounds at the Niles qualifier was CG, so I acknowledge your sentiments. I didn't play well against that band, and it had a little bit of a gimmicky nature. I can't take away from the skill of my opponent--he beat me (i.e. it wasn't the dice, for example). I did have trouble overcoming conceal, and that probably cost me the game, but that was the nature of his band and he exploited it. My band wasn't suited to beating his, and honestly, almost all my games (except, ironically, the last and first ones) were nail-biters. The closest ones were against Chaotic factions.
Dave
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Knowledge Arcana editor issues 5-9, Phoenix Lore Magazine editor, assistant editor for Rite Publishing;
My Trade Thread and My Reference Thread; Winner of WBC IV, IX and XIII; Rule #0: bshugg is always right! | |
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Calicles
Sneak
51 Posts
| | 12/16/2006 11:58 AM |
| I dont think that most CG warbands are "spoilers". The addition of the Dragondown Grotto map makes certain CG warbands that are already competitive nearly unbeatable if they win map initiative. But they can still be very competitive even if they lose map initiative.  There are numerous CG-mixed bands that are adapt at both melee and ranged combat.  When you factor in the substantial advantage that the Grotto map gives to ranged attackers, these warbands are a very serious competitive threat rather than just a potential spoiler for certain other archtype warbands.
Even certain Ballista builds work pretty darn effectively on different maps, and are down right devastating on the Grotto.  IIRC, Janos won the Grinder with a Ballista build with the Grotto as his map and Alepulp won the Italian Championships with a Ballista build on the Grotto.  I think that is pretty strong evidence that when building a warband nowadays you really have to take into consideration how your band will perform on the Grotto and against a strong ranged presence.
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In sum, I think that unless you are willing to risk the game / tournament on a single dice roll for map init against a +4 or +5 commander in CG (Storm, IM, or Moon Elf), or against a +5, +6 or +7 commander in LG (Cleric of Order, Purple Dragon Knight, Clerif of Dol Arrah, Sword of Heironeous), then you should strongly consider trying to factor in some extra versatility when building a competitive warband. Sacred watchers are very helpful in mitigating ranged attacks, invisibility helps but isnt the end-all for dealing with ranged attackers, high HPs, high AC, high speed, flight and area of effect damage are also good ways of increasing your overall performance on the Grotto and against ranged threats generally.
My 2 cents for what its worth. | |
Champion of Sehanine Moonbow | |
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omikapsi
Sneak
77 Posts
| | 12/16/2006 9:28 PM |
| I don't think that I have anything constructive to add after those last three posts. Very good stuff that sums up the state of the game quite well.
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