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Uekzw011 Skirmisher
 24 Posts




 | | 12/20/2006 5:09 AM |
| Undead be a funny bunch. Yes, they have good creature type characteristics. Still most of the undead pieces are simply not very good. Despite this there is a tremendous amount of undead hate about, perhaps more so than for any other creature type. Lots of undead hate spells, like chill touch. Most significantly though, the Sacred Watcher. The final undead hate piece. So good that it's mere existence should put any notions of ever running an undead band to rest. Yet, any competive undead warbands to come out from Unhallowed must negotiate the presence of this piece. Just how good is the Sacred Watcher? Well, incorporeal means its 30 hitpoints are equivalent to 60 hitpoints. Fearless means these 60 hitpoints are effective hitpoints, whereas in case of non-fearless pieces, some hitpoints tend to run away. We might thus approximate the hitpoints of the Sacred Watcher to 75 non-fearless hitpoints. 75 hitpoints protected by AC 21 and armed with a +10 (10) attack. If you are unfortunate enough to be an undead and on the wrong end of the Sacred Watcher's "evil undead slayer" ability the stats of the Sacred Watcher would however instead be approximated to 75 hp, AC 21,+10(20). In short, for 18 points you get a unit with the staying power of a Gulgar and the offensive power of a Half-Ogre Barbarian. Oh, and this unit can also fly trough walls. Any competive undead warbands to come out of Unhallowed must however be able to take on these stats and win. Else they will not be competive, as simple as that. So, how would one then expect this presumed competiveness of the Unhallowed undead to come about? One way would be to raise the base stats of the Unhallowed undead to take on the Sacred Watcher's hate boosted stats. Only problem is this would probably break the game. Think something like a 36 pts undead hitter, AC21, 90 hp, speed 8 with a +11/+11 (20) attack. Think the PanzerMinotaur (TM). Another way would be to increase the availability of Chill Touch. Think something like a Chill Touch Gatling Gun. Three ranged Turn Undead 20 spells each turn, unlimited. That would send those Sacred Watchers packing alright. Only problem is such a unit would hit every other undead unit as hard. Which would not do much for their competiveness at all. Control undead is a similar case to Turn Undead. If made available to the evil factions it would allow them to not only counter the Sacred Watchers, but also to turn their strength against them. However, if control undead spells was made too cheaply available this would make undead units too easily dealt with by other evil warbands. Ghost Touch would seem to offer the most viable solution, based on what's available today. One would frankly expect to see in Unhallowed a cost effective spell which gives a target Ghost Touch and/or some really viable incorporeal hate pieces to counter the Sacred Watcher. How anyone else would dare field large numbers of undead I do not see. | | | |
| Orion72 Underboss
 1917 Posts



 | | 12/20/2006 5:50 AM |
| It's like you read my mind! Both paragraphs of it!Â
SWatchers were a horrible mistake, IMHO as an Undead lover. I'd love to see a ghost touch spell in LE, to ensure that those lil suckers never get played again! Forgepriest with Cleave who autohits and doesn't roll for Incorp? Sign me up!
In CE, there's... well, there's the Frost Dwarf. Three (or 4?) uses of chill touch, and Speed 4 to ensure he never actually gets to use them. Unlike the Zakya, he's not good for much else. There's the Lich Necro with control undead - which has a less than 50% chance of working, and who gets punked hard if it doesn't. There's the Cursed Spirit, who doesn't roll for Incorp - but who falls in one autohit from a SWatcher.
Then there are all the 30 damage hitters who can hit AC 21 fairly often, but still take a 50/50 chance on having it stick.
Bah! Show me some SWatcher hate! Show me an Evil Undead Incorporeal critter with over 20 hp and Good Undead Foe! | | | |
|  Vrecknidj Warlord
 10493 Posts


 United States
 | | 12/20/2006 5:54 AM |
| I really hope something is done to make pieces like liches and vampires more playable. Although the older pieces will probably remain in their boxes, collecting dust, I'd like to see newer variants that are more cost effective and highly playable.
Dave | | Knowledge Arcana editor issues 5-9, Phoenix Lore Magazine editor, assistant editor for Rite Publishing; My Trade Thread and My Reference Thread; Winner of WBC IV, IX and XIII; Rule #0: bshugg is always right! | |
| Bring_it_On_DDM Sneak
 121 Posts



 Canada
 | | 12/20/2006 7:32 AM |
| Posted By Orion72 on 12/20/2006 5:50 AM It's like you read my mind! Both paragraphs of it!  SWatchers were a horrible mistake, IMHO as an Undead lover. I'd love to see a ghost touch spell in LE, to ensure that those lil suckers never get played again! Forgepriest with Cleave who autohits and doesn't roll for Incorp? Sign me up! In CE, there's... well, there's the Frost Dwarf. Three (or 4?) uses of chill touch, and Speed 4 to ensure he never actually gets to use them. Unlike the Zakya, he's not good for much else. There's the Lich Necro with control undead - which has a less than 50% chance of working, and who gets punked hard if it doesn't. There's the Cursed Spirit, who doesn't roll for Incorp - but who falls in one autohit from a SWatcher. Then there are all the 30 damage hitters who can hit AC 21 fairly often, but still take a 50/50 chance on having it stick. Bah! Show me some SWatcher hate! Show me an Evil Undead Incorporeal critter with over 20 hp and Good Undead Foe!
I totally agree with you!
IMO CE is the one faction that gets the shaft with Undead more than any other faction. Only exception is blood war's Vlaakith the Lich Queen
for Epic mostly and even that is very little love for Undead in CE.
I really hope they change the balance of undead for all factions in Unhallowed. | | I'm new to DDM. But have played D&D for 13 years!
Called Shot Icons Gargantuan Silver Dragon | |
|  jgsugden Commander
 4320 Posts



 Walnut Creek, CA
 | | 12/20/2006 9:36 AM |
| Evil has a few undead pieces that can't be ignored:
Cursed Spirit - This is an exceptional piece and has long been a key component in many CE bands.
Vlaakith - although expensive, she is an effective piece. The disintegrate and fireball force enemies to do things that play right into the hands of CE.Â
Warrior Skeleton - This is a very fine 3 point piece for LE, and could be useful for CE if CE ever gets a cold dealing spellcaster worth mentioning.
Lord Soth - He has been a part of some pretty competitive warbands, although the low AB and HPs is a problem.Â
Zombie White Dragon - A solid meat shield.
Minotaur Skeleton - Cost 16, HPS 40, fearless, hits for 15, powerful charge and melee reach 2? I've used him to fill out a band before, and despite the low AB, he was worthwhile. | | Champion of Meepo _*_ Myztek on the Wizards Boards. _*_ (2206 DDM on 03/06/06) Please note: The use of the indicates an attempt at humor ... often a bad attempt. BAD EBAY SELLERS LIST (CLICK HERE): AVOID AT ALL COSTS
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| Duke of Spoils greyhaze Warlord
 7715 Posts




 | | 12/20/2006 11:28 AM |
| One way around the problem is to create evil Commanders that bolster or boost undead like the Grim Necromancer... but not sucky. Another way is like they're doing with the large dragons (or the forgepriest), something that boosts your entire warband just by being there - with perhaps "ghost touch".
I don't think that we really have a problem dealing with undead, right now the game is lacking of having evil undead that are worth putting in a warband, let alone filling out a warband with.
Yet, in RPG, they are brutal with their ability damage attacks (1d6 damage per hit to any ability score will drop near anybody in 3-5 hits, 1-2 hits will seriously screw them up). | | Greyhaze's DDM Spoilers Champion of a Medium Dog & then a Darkenbeast , Raistlin Majere, Nightmare WDQ25/60, Warduke WD60/60, Anti-Champion of Guns, "Knight of Bugbears", and Joke Champion of Venger. Called Shots: Frost Giant in Dangerous Delves. | |
|  jgsugden Commander
 4320 Posts



 Walnut Creek, CA
 | | 12/20/2006 12:31 PM |
| Posted By greyhaze on 12/20/2006 11:28 AM One way around the problem is to create evil Commanders that bolster or boost undead like the Grim Necromancer... but not sucky...
I am not a fan of this plan. It makes the old pieces playable, but it also forces them to make all future undead sucky. That isn't fun in a limited  setting.
Instead, I'd just make the new pieces playable and write off the old ones. What is done, is done.Â
I think we'll see a number of interesting undead (and unholy) creatures in Unhallowed. They've made vast improvements in making constructs useful... I'm sure that undead will soon cross that gap as well.  Heck, imagine a nicely costed hill giant skeleton:
Hill Giant Skeleton (CE)
Cost: 32
HP: 80 (exact translation would be 78 hps) Level/Save: 6 (approximated based upon low saving throws of the RPG version) AC: 15 (Hide + Natural Armor of a large skeleton) Move: 6 (exact translation)
Attack: +13/+8 (20) (exact translation)
Melee Reach 2 Fearless Undead Immunities Immune Cold
That would be a competitive piece, IMHO. It wouldn't deliver the punch of an orc champion, but at 80 fearless hps and a lower cost, it'd suddenly open the door for some of CE's interesting commanders with low commander ratings (but cool commander effects) to see more play... | | Champion of Meepo _*_ Myztek on the Wizards Boards. _*_ (2206 DDM on 03/06/06) Please note: The use of the indicates an attempt at humor ... often a bad attempt. BAD EBAY SELLERS LIST (CLICK HERE): AVOID AT ALL COSTS
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| lingster Sergeant
 778 Posts




 | | 12/20/2006 1:35 PM |
| | What's wrong with the Spectre? I happen to love this peice. It's the most annoying piece out there. First, you have to hit it (easy enough with it's low ac), then make it stick (incorp), then watch as it heals itself everytime it hits you. I like running 4 of them as it's quite fun to see people try to deal with them. I'd love to see something give a boost to that mini so he's that much more playable. | | May you find peace and happiness at the hand of Hextor.
Champion of Black Pudding Called Shot Desert of Desolation: Drider - VINDICATED! Called Shot Demonweb: Drow Cleric of Lloth Called Shot FeyWild: Water Nymph (06-26-08)
Member of Team Millennium
4E takes away our Big Bad Evil Guy (BBEG) and give us this:
The Big Bad Mis-Understood But Not Quite Inherently Evil Who Does Naughty Things Guy (BBMUBNQIEWDNTG for short) | |
| Nobody Important Sergeant
 718 Posts



 | | 12/20/2006 3:10 PM |
| There is little doubt the Sacred Watcher is the best undead to run in multiples. I would say its 30 incoporeal hit points equate to 60 even if it were not fearless as the "morale check" is effectively what happens with the incorporeal check. Against other undead it is certainly a dangerous unit. In a straight up fight the Spectre is close but costs far more although the Spectre does have advantages against other opponents.
I like jgsugden's Hill Giant Skeleton but am possitive it is undercosted (at least against any non-Sacred Watcher). I could see playing it even if it costs 40-50.
Undead still face problems beyond the Sacred Watcher. The ZakRak with its unlimited chill touch is possibly the biggest counter to undead. All the healing currently available for good also makes fielding undead risky. Even with all the hate all I feel undead need to see competive status is a reasonable hp/cost ratio. With all the fearless (and near fearless) running around undead shouldn't be penalized for that trait.
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| Sirohk Commander
 3938 Posts



 USA
 | | 12/20/2006 3:13 PM |
| The Spectre and Ghostly Consort form LE are both overcosted for what you get.Â
So is the Warith from Harbinger (but he was probably not too bad in his day). The Wraith would be pretty decent if it was about 8-10 point less in cost, or did a little more damage, or his Constitution Drain had a higher DC.Â
Of course the Harbinger Mummy is not too bad, except for his slow speed and vulnerability to fire.Â
The Grim Necromancer is an abomination - a horrible horrible piece!Â
You, LE (and CE to go with Vlaaakith) needs some good Undead.Â
And I'm hoping Unhallwoed gives us some, although I'm not holding my breath for anything that knocks my socks off (but the Beholder Lich came very close).Â
 | | Sirohk, the Bard of Heartstone Knight of the Rahshasa's And Crusader of the Zakya, Ak'chazar, Naztharune, and Naityan Rakshasa's | |
| Duke of Spoils greyhaze Warlord
 7715 Posts




 | | 12/20/2006 3:52 PM |
| | No crits and no sneak attack vs undead either, probably contribute to their high cost / hps ratio. | | Greyhaze's DDM Spoilers Champion of a Medium Dog & then a Darkenbeast , Raistlin Majere, Nightmare WDQ25/60, Warduke WD60/60, Anti-Champion of Guns, "Knight of Bugbears", and Joke Champion of Venger. Called Shots: Frost Giant in Dangerous Delves. | |
| Knight of the Round Table Thenameless Warlord
 12507 Posts



 The Fortress of Solitude
 | | 12/20/2006 6:40 PM |
| | Uekzw011, that was a very informative essay on the relative strengths (or lack thereof) of undead, and what they must bring to the table in order to be competitive. I think you're very accurate in saying that any undead that are built to handle Sacred Watchers will probably break the game. I suppose that the best we can hope for is strong undead in a varied field, whose Achilles' Heel is Sacred Watcher warbands. | | Over 270 successful online DDM trades. | |
|  Bert the Troll Commander
 3964 Posts



 Adelaide
 | | 12/21/2006 12:29 AM |
| I think there are quite a few good undead, (mostly already mentioned above). They just dont seem to dominate like the constructs do.
I`ld prefer a mixture of gnarly commander effects and better costed new figures.
Also, I'm moving this to skirmish.  | | "Mutton yesterday, mutton today, and blimey, if it don't look like mutton again tomorrer." Bert the Troll - The Hobbit Semi-Secret sig business: "In the age of the internet attaching a famous name to your personal opinion to give more weight to it is a very valid strategy." - Benjamin Franklin Champion of Epic Lolth, Orcus, & Demogorgon and bring us Asmodeus! | |
| Uekzw011 Skirmisher
 24 Posts




 | | 12/21/2006 1:45 AM |
| Posted By Orion72 on 12/20/2006 5:50 AM
Bah! Show me some SWatcher hate! Show me an Evil Undead Incorporeal critter with over 20 hp and Good Undead Foe! Would work. Good Undead Foe seemed a bit questionable at first. Thought there was only one good undead piece. The ability would say "Good Undead Foe", but would really mean "Sacred Watcher Foe". Kind of a limited ability to introduce. Though upon consideration that might perhaps be an advantage. The potential balance disruption overall would be minimal with an ability which targeted only one unit, and a unit which could do with some nerfing at that. And while the Undying Soldier isn't exactly a high impact unit there would at least be two targets for a "Good Undead Foe" ability.Â
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| Gunthar Commander
 2938 Posts




 | | 12/21/2006 4:55 AM |
| | There's plenty of Sacred Watcher hate already: Cleric of Lathander & Zakya Rakshasa are both very good against them, and they're good figures otherwise. Too many people get "in the box" when warband building. That's fine, but there are already solutions out there. I ran Lathander in my qualifier band and did very well. | | Champion of Prit(Wemic vindication is here) Minneapolis/St. Paul area Completed trades: Aspect of Cheese (Love that moniker), Tickparasite, Elderthing, Lalato, Sodj, Grimoire, SmilinIrish, Zeb, RWarehall,Link, wikkawikkawa, Auramancer, Rommers, HK, Ivid5,Qillan_dvra, Puggins, Arcabius, Ironfist Boulderbender, Robby, Corim Danex, monster_slayer, DNDJUNKIE, Kelemvor, Krush, ckissee, Massawyrm, hockey fan, Wish, Uninspiring Lieutenant, vtloon x2, Vrecknidj, Darthpoke, WakeXX, AnarionZell, lycusmike, papabear5 and umpteen local trades with board members
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| iluvxtina Underboss
 1501 Posts



 Spain
 | | 12/21/2006 6:13 AM |
| | Only a few undead are really good ones:Lord soth+beholder,cursed spirits,sacred watchers+archon,vlaakith+orc wizard and(maybe) ,zombie white dragon.I think the most used of all is the cursed spirit .its cursed aura and incorporeal for only 11 points makes the difference.lease,more pieces like this one | | LOVE THIS GIRL | |
| lantern314 Sergeant
 684 Posts




 | | 12/21/2006 7:30 AM |
| | I did some thinking about this a while ago and this is what I realized. While they are very different from a flavor point of view, from a mechanical point of view (resistances etc.) constructs and undead are virtually identical. While we have seen quite a few very aggressively costed, and therefore usable, constructs we have only seen a couple of undead that fit this category. The problems that I see with this are, first that there are also several things out there that are undead hate (chill touch, turn undead, sacred watchers), but only two things that are construct hate (Dwarf Artificer rust construct spell, and construct lock). Second, if we were to take a poll to determine preference and presence in rpg campaigns I believe that undead would win hands down over constructs. If we look at there presence in skirmish games it would be no contest in favor of constructs (with the possible exception of the SW). I personally would prefer my skirmish games looked a lot like my RPG games when spread out on the table and I don't think I'm alone. Third, because no one has mentioned it, the Van Richten piece sure looks like a SW hater. Now if we just had some corporeal undead to kill him with. | | | |
| Damien the Bloodfeaster Sergeant
 885 Posts



 Portland, OR
 | | 12/21/2006 8:20 AM |
| Even Strahd in the new set may be more useful against the Sacred Watchers; it sounds like his night's caress spell has a function similar to chill touch, but I'm betting it's a ranged effect, making it more worthwhile in dealing with the SWs.
I also wouldn't rule out the Grim Necromancer. His biggest weakness has always been his hit points, and with the Dragonmark Heir you now have a nice bodyguard to keep him alive longer.
Where the undead have really lacked is in the 30-40 point beater category; those that have appeared generally have too low a attack bonus or damage bonus to be remotely worthwhile. If they introduce one or two of those, then IMO there's enough tech in the evil factions to make a largely undead band relatively viable. | | | |
| djtool Sergeant
 584 Posts



 Crystal MN, USA
 | | 12/21/2006 2:19 PM |
| I'd be suprised if a respectable undead 'beater' emerged for LE. Who
was it that said CE get's the undead shaft?....please...lawful evil has
some fringe pieces but the only competitive one is soth, since CE and
LE both share the warrior skeleton and the gravehound.
as far as the comparison between constructs and undead, undead can be healed.
as
crappy as the grim necromancer is the fact remains that he provides a
huge attack bonus to undead *and* LE just got a bodyguard. aside from
that the beholder heals undead (a couple clerics too) so if you had a
'good' beater less then 55 points theres a good chance those 2 and
beholder would be overpowerd. Finally LE has the troglodyte
captain that boosts attack bonus's by +5 (via stench which undead are immune to) vs. most units which is
obscene. I realize that wouldn't see much play after the release
but as time goes on and people move on to different pieces, such a
combination could be near game-breaking, or at least kill variety (many
30 - 45 point pieces in LE swing at +14/9 and higher so imagine +19/14
for that amount of points....ridiculous)
(trog cappy + trog thug = 64 points + 9 for most basic fodder leaves
you with 127 points. 127 divided by 3 equals ~42 points so
something of that cost or lower might cause unbalace.)
as far as
sacred watcher hate i'm sure there will be plenty of it when unhallowed
comes out as 'undead hunting' units will emerge from the good factions.
it might even be 'acceptable' to field less used pieces such as the
combat medic.
It would be wonderful if we were given a 'proper'
necromancer as they are numerous in ALL fantasy settings, not just DnD.
the necromancer is an iconic force of evil and its a shame that after
so many sets there isn't even a representative mini that's 'on the
fringe' of competitiveness.
I'm not great at mini building as I'm not a PnP superstar, but I'd like to see:
special abilities: spectral hand - this creature may make touch attacks at range 6
with appropriate spells. maybe unlimited chill touches for counter-balance.
| | Champion of: Brain in a Jar | |
| vudumumu Sneak
 83 Posts




 | | 12/21/2006 4:48 PM |
| Finally LE has the troglodyte captain that boosts attack bonus's by 5(!) vs. most units which is obscene.Â
He actually gives + 5 bonus to damage, not attack. I do think he would be played more if it were the other way around tho! | | | |
| Ryoga Underboss
 1124 Posts



 Coquimbo - Chile / Italia
 | | 12/21/2006 5:03 PM |
| @vudumumu, check it better, IS ATTACK..... no damage...... but is was be very usefull +5 damage....  | | Dealing with new life... new country and life without DDM :( Some day I will be back in board | |
| djtool Sergeant
 584 Posts



 Crystal MN, USA
 | | 12/21/2006 6:08 PM |
| it was supposed to be damage but was printed attack. I don't recall anything in guy's clarifications page addressing it.
| | Champion of: Brain in a Jar | |
| Ryoga Underboss
 1124 Posts



 Coquimbo - Chile / Italia
 | | 12/22/2006 8:19 AM |
| I write to wizards about it, and they say that designers evaluate the Cfx and final results is and Unbalanced Metagaming, They decide to change the Cfx for something similar. Im still waiting for an Unit that Cause stench to enemies at 6 squares it maybe GOOD unit fot trog Captain.....
djtool, in an underdark Preview you can see that Wizards say that trog Captain gives +5 damages....... thast bad...... | | Dealing with new life... new country and life without DDM :( Some day I will be back in board | |
| Lord_rock Underboss
 2045 Posts



 Portland OR
 | | 12/22/2006 1:21 PM |
| Undead warbands will happen someday... I hope that day is unhallowed release date.
I'm very surprised we havn't seen the true necromancer prestige class, the dread necro class, and the master of shrouds yet. Three very popular evil casters with no love...
What i really want is an acurately powerful mummy! the first two have been jokes! I posted a good one the other day (don't know where it went) Varuna, mummified miotaur of Legend please!
Strahd sounds like he'll make a run at competitive play, as will many undead under the control of Vlakkith... | | Rock Bottom Pricing: Arcane Archer 30, Centaur Hero 67, Human Cleric of Bane 25, Gold Champion 34, Death Knight 52, Goblin Blackblade 9, Silentwolf Goblin 7, Orc Raider 10, Dwarf axefighter 9, Healer 9, Thaskor 65, Aspect of Demogorgon 71, Ogre 9, Fire Giant 79, Human Wanderer 7, Drunken Master 18, Barghest 12, Longstider Barbarian 27, Longtooth Barbarian 22, Frost Giant 76, Ravenous Vampire 42, Large Earth Elemental: priceless | |
| Sirohk Commander
 3938 Posts



 USA
 | | 12/22/2006 3:32 PM |
| Strahd and Vlaakith WILL be the commanders of choice for Undead warbands, provided we get some decent Undead in Unhallowed.Â 
 | | Sirohk, the Bard of Heartstone Knight of the Rahshasa's And Crusader of the Zakya, Ak'chazar, Naztharune, and Naityan Rakshasa's | |
| djtool Sergeant
 584 Posts



 Crystal MN, USA
 | | 12/22/2006 8:12 PM |
| | I wouldn't be so sure sirohk. Snig might very well be an excellent commander choice, the cleric of nerull, red hand for the damage, trog captain, hell there's even an outside chance the lord of blades will work. | | Champion of: Brain in a Jar | |
| Sirohk Commander
 3938 Posts



 USA
 | | 12/23/2006 8:00 AM |
| Posted By djtool on 12/22/2006 8:12 PM I wouldn't be so sure sirohk. Snig might very well be an excellent commander choice, the cleric of nerull, red hand for the damage, trog captain, hell there's even an outside chance the lord of blades will work. I agree. With Fearless Undead in the warband (assuming that Unhallowed gives us some good ones), the commander becomes much less relevant to the warband and therefore better attacking options (ie Red Hand Sorcerer) become more viable.Â
I especially like the idea of the Trog Captain in an Undead / Construct warband. Now that would be scary, scary good.Â

| | Sirohk, the Bard of Heartstone Knight of the Rahshasa's And Crusader of the Zakya, Ak'chazar, Naztharune, and Naityan Rakshasa's | |
|  Prince o the Raven Banner Sergeant
 606 Posts




 | | 12/28/2006 12:36 AM |
| Spectral Hand (Bypasses Incorporeal, touch at range 6) + Chill Touch = Hottness.
Honestly the Sacred Watcher would be a good Mini at 28 points, so even hate pieces won't make it disappear.
A revamped commander with the Undead followers get attack +4 would be nice.
A Legion's Ghost Touch almost seems likely, though it will be expensive. | | Two trades completed!! (Krush,Hides From Hurricanes) Champion of the Aaracokra Herald Of Snig Goblin King | |
|  JohnnyFive Warrior
 207 Posts




 | | 12/28/2006 5:27 PM |
| I wonder if CG will get any new undead, as the Undying Soldier pretty much sucks.  | | Champion of the Elf Duskblade | |
| coreyhake Skirmisher
 2 Posts



 | | 12/29/2006 4:50 PM |
| | Unhallow may just include more incorporeal undead or creatures that can hit incorporeal to minimize the effect of the sacred watcher(being that incorporeal hit other incorporeal normally) | | | |
| calvar Warrior
 226 Posts




 | | 12/30/2006 4:06 AM |
| | I dont think we will see any succesful undead bands until they make a decent undead beater (not just some parody of it), I am talking about some 30-40 points undead mini capable of dealing at least 30 damage/round reliably and surviving a full frenzied berserker attack (that is to say 65 Hp or good AC, conceal, etc). | | | |
| Lord_rock Underboss
 2045 Posts



 Portland OR
 | | 12/31/2006 8:50 AM |
| Really... how hard can it be to make a Mummy beater! I'm sure it can be done! 65hp, reinforced 5 (i like 3.0 not 3.5 mummy's), mummy rot, aura of fear, hit for 20 or 15m and it would work...
undead with classes! Check out the Libris Mortis for ideas!
How about the Death Bringer from MM II... there's an undead beater! | | Rock Bottom Pricing: Arcane Archer 30, Centaur Hero 67, Human Cleric of Bane 25, Gold Champion 34, Death Knight 52, Goblin Blackblade 9, Silentwolf Goblin 7, Orc Raider 10, Dwarf axefighter 9, Healer 9, Thaskor 65, Aspect of Demogorgon 71, Ogre 9, Fire Giant 79, Human Wanderer 7, Drunken Master 18, Barghest 12, Longstider Barbarian 27, Longtooth Barbarian 22, Frost Giant 76, Ravenous Vampire 42, Large Earth Elemental: priceless | |
| Sirohk Commander
 3938 Posts



 USA
 | | Zyla Underboss
 1201 Posts




 | | 12/31/2006 2:55 PM |
| LE has about the only real undead hate currently, the Zakya Rakshasha, it will even make vlaakith run screaming.
If ghost touch does appear as a spell, it will either be LG or CG. | | | |
| Orion72 Underboss
 1917 Posts



 | | 01/02/2007 7:28 AM |
| Posted By Zyla on 12/31/2006 2:55 PM LE has about the only real undead hate currently, the Zakya Rakshasa, it will even make Vlaakith run screaming.
Yeah, I'd like to see a Zak Rak make its disntegrate save or Paralysis save. Vlaakith has little to fear from a morale check that she's likely to make.
The best Undead hate in the game currently belongs to SWatchers, with 20 damage hits and 50/50 chances of avoiding any damage. They're also immune to chill touch under a Solar.
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