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ShadowLord XT
Commander
2646 Posts
    
Plane of Shadow
 | | 12/26/2006 4:52 PM |
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Disipline is the only way to overcome chaos.
Champion of Half-Golems
Knight of Golems
"This world is made for love and peace" - Trigun
"anyway..shadow..you've figured women out. KUDOS." - raye_kino16 | |
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Ryoga
Underboss
1124 Posts
Coquimbo - Chile / Italia
| | 12/26/2006 5:47 PM |
| The units presented by you, is not SUPPORT units, this units is hitters.
LE have little support, you can talk about some Side Hitters or bodyguards.
If you are refering to HITTERS. Duergar champion is the best of the best. | |
Dealing with new life... new country and life without DDM :(
Some day I will be back in board | |
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djtool
Sergeant
584 Posts
Crystal MN, USA
| | 12/26/2006 5:52 PM |
| LE has very few true support pieces. Much of the tech is bottled up in high cost figures (example: efreeti).
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Champion of: Brain in a Jar | |
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Sirohk
Commander
3938 Posts
USA
| | 12/26/2006 6:00 PM |
| I tend to agree that the pieces you listed are normally the hitters (of Quad LE hitters).Â
LE support pieces are:
Snig (my vote for the best support piece)
Sniglets (Goblin Skirmishers)
Greenspawn Sneak
Azer Raider
Timber Wolf
Skeleton Warrior
Dark Moon Monk
Kobold Sorcerer
Blue
Dire Rat
Diseased Dire Rat
Soulknife
Dragonmark Heir
Wererat Rogue
Large Duergar
Doom Fist Monk
These are the major ones I can think of off the top of my head.Â
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Sirohk, the Bard of Heartstone
Knight of the Rahshasa's
And Crusader of the Zakya, Ak'chazar, Naztharune, and Naityan Rakshasa's | |
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Tgt
Sergeant
574 Posts
| | 12/26/2006 6:05 PM |
| Most of Sirohk´s creatures listed I would call fodder rather than support. DMM and DHoD could be classified as true support.
LE still waits for SS. Maybe that will give them a chance at Epic. | |
VINDICATED Champion of the Mounted Blackguard
DoD called shot: Phrenic Manticore
They´re taking the Hobbits to Isengard!
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ShadowLord XT
Commander
2646 Posts
Plane of Shadow
| | 12/26/2006 6:26 PM |
| I'm sorry, I got my terms mixed up. I did mean hitters. Side hitters actually. Not Horned Devil type minis, but the lesser hitters.
Do you understand? | |
Disipline is the only way to overcome chaos.
Champion of Half-Golems
Knight of Golems
"This world is made for love and peace" - Trigun
"anyway..shadow..you've figured women out. KUDOS." - raye_kino16 | |
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Sirohk
Commander
3938 Posts
USA
| | 12/26/2006 6:48 PM |
| Posted By ShadowLord XT on 12/26/2006 6:26 PM
I'm sorry, I got my terms mixed up. I did mean hitters. Side hitters actually. Not Horned Devil type minis, but the lesser hitters.
Do you understand?
That's cool then. Thanks. And I voted for the correct "best" support hitter.Â
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Sirohk, the Bard of Heartstone
Knight of the Rahshasa's
And Crusader of the Zakya, Ak'chazar, Naztharune, and Naityan Rakshasa's | |
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Sirohk
Commander
3938 Posts
USA
| | 12/26/2006 6:56 PM |
| Posted By Tgt on 12/26/2006 6:05 PM
Most of Sirohk´s creatures listed I would call fodder rather than support. DMM and DHoD could be classified as true support.
LE still waits for SS. Maybe that will give them a chance at Epic. I'll agree somewhat that most of what I listed is "fodder", but that's what LE has for tech support - fodder.Â  LE simply does not have the tech support of LG or CG. My sort of revised list of tech support: Kobold Sorcerer
DMM
Snig the Axe
Dragonamrk Heir
Night Hag (not a true beater, has Magic Missile & Ray Enffeblement, basically an expensive Aramil) 
Diseased Dire Rat (for its Distracating Presence, that no other faction has) Sadly, that's about all I can think of for LE. I don't think LE will see SS any time soon, sadly.Â
EDITED 12/27/06 - Added Snig.Â
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Sirohk, the Bard of Heartstone
Knight of the Rahshasa's
And Crusader of the Zakya, Ak'chazar, Naztharune, and Naityan Rakshasa's | |
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djtool
Sergeant
584 Posts
Crystal MN, USA
| | 12/26/2006 7:43 PM |
| well its hard to choose since list presents hitters that will have an advantage over the others in a given situation. I think you can start by narrowing it down to:
duergar champ
chraal
justicator
maug
at this point in time I'd say its the champ if there isn't much grotto in your meta, the justicator if there is. | |
Champion of: Brain in a Jar | |
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SYB
Warrior
328 Posts
| | 12/26/2006 8:20 PM |
| I would have to include the Zakya in that list DJ. He has a number of advantages that the other hitters don't have. I'm also a tad surprised that the Helmed Horror isn't on the list. It is clearly a hitter (not a titan).
-SYB | |
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Nobody Important
Sergeant
718 Posts
| | 12/26/2006 8:42 PM |
| The best LE SUPPORT unit has to be the Dragonmark Heir of Deneith. Is there an easier way to get Energy Immunity and bodyguard to protect your other units?
For hitters in that cost range I prefer the Durgar Champion but would also consider the ZakRak if I expected many undead.
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MAURIZIO
Sergeant
960 Posts
Lima, Perú
| | 12/26/2006 8:57 PM |
| Posted By Ryoga on 12/26/2006 5:47 PM
The units presented by you, is not SUPPORT units, this units is hitters.
LE have little support, you can talk about some Side Hitters or bodyguards.
If you are refering to HITTERS. Duergar champion is the best of the best.
He is talking about Support Hitters. I´m agree with you Ryoga, DC are the best ever.
But for really support:
dark moon monk
Snig the Axe
Dragonmark Heir of Deneith
Kobold Sorcerer
Timber Wolf | |
Againts the Giants Called Shot: Cattie Bri.
Dungeon of Dread Called Shot: Cockatrice.
Todas las batallas en la vida sirven para enseñarnos algo, inclusive aquellas que perdemos. Paulo Coehlo
"DnD teaches you a valuable lesson, always loot the bodies of your dead enemies"
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| Duke of Spoils
greyhaze
Warlord
7720 Posts
| | 12/26/2006 9:07 PM |
| | Most of LE support (tech) is generally found in their Commanders. That said, the Zakya is a good tech/hitter. | |
Greyhaze's DDM Spoilers
Champion of a Medium Dog & then a Darkenbeast , Raistlin Majere, Nightmare WDQ25/60, Warduke WD60/60,
Anti-Champion of Guns, "Knight of Bugbears", and Joke Champion of Venger.
Called Shots: Frost Giant in Dangerous Delves. | |
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Ryoga
Underboss
1124 Posts
Coquimbo - Chile / Italia
| | 12/26/2006 9:24 PM |
| TRUE, greyhaze and MAURIZIO ( Duergar Rules ),
Ok at this time, no SS in LE, redundant Cfx (All increase Attack.... and attack), and finally Bodyguard comes to game.
What kind of Support you expect for LE??? other Cfx, an GMA (Hobgoblin Marshal), spellcaster with SS???
or what other weird think you have at mind???.......
LE need some support......... IMO | |
Dealing with new life... new country and life without DDM :(
Some day I will be back in board | |
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Tgt
Sergeant
574 Posts
| | 12/26/2006 10:02 PM |
| I´d expect something to put on pair with other factions while keeping the flavor of LE. Maybe something to nerf elemental resistance (since LE relies too much on it), some damage increase effect (if no SS is coming and LE damages doesnt match other factions, specially in Epic).
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VINDICATED Champion of the Mounted Blackguard
DoD called shot: Phrenic Manticore
They´re taking the Hobbits to Isengard!
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1752017962119496176 | |
| Knight of the
Round Table
Thenameless
Warlord
12507 Posts
The Fortress of Solitude
| | 12/27/2006 1:55 AM |
| | There really is no choice here, as far as which hitter is best in general - it has to be the Duergar Champion. The others might be better in some situations, but the Duergar Champion is the best overall. | |
Over 270 successful online DDM trades. | |
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Sirohk
Commander
3938 Posts
USA
| | 12/27/2006 5:22 AM |
| Posted By Thenameless on 12/27/2006 1:55 AM
There really is no choice here, as far as which hitter is best in general - it has to be the Duergar Champion. The others might be better in some situations, but the Duergar Champion is the best overall.
I really like the DC, but I like Zakya over the DC. He can deal with a greater varied meta with his True Strike, Chill Touch, DR, and AC 22. Throw in Blind-Fight versus Conceal & Invisible opponents.Â
Zakya hits at +14 / +9 versus +15 / +10 for the Duergar.Â
His major drawback is his level 7, but this is easily solved by using the HBG.Â
The DC has AC 20, is 3 pts cheaper, and then relies on Conceal 6 to survive, which is not too bad.Â
Still, I like the Zak a little better.Â
Also, as someone else mentioned, where the Helmed Horror on the beater list?
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Sirohk, the Bard of Heartstone
Knight of the Rahshasa's
And Crusader of the Zakya, Ak'chazar, Naztharune, and Naityan Rakshasa's | |
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froffenhoffer
Sergeant
702 Posts
| | 12/27/2006 6:22 AM |
| | Other: love those efreeti.. | |
Champion of Wildshaped druid in with natural spell!
Thus said froffenhoffer
The Official through the heart, and im to blame archer. | |
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Orion72
Underboss
1917 Posts
| | 12/27/2006 6:39 AM |
| I'd say the price range for Quad beaters (which is what I assume the original intent was) runs from the Doogie Champ at 33 to the Large Green Dragon at 51. Anything cheaper is generally inefficient as a Quad hitter (because it won't HIT anything) and anything more expensive leaves you short on activations.
So in this range, we have:
DC 33
Chraal 35
Zak Rak 36
Blood Ghost Berserker 37 (w/Urthok)
Maug 41
Efreeti 42
Mezzoloth 44
Helmed Horror 45
Justicator 48
Lg Green Meanie 51Â
These are the ones I look at first when building an LE Quad. Other figures in this price range are either not straight-up beaters (Dragonmark), are inefficient in most builds, or I just haven't regarded them as worth trying out yet (Lg Water, Greenrazor).
Of the above, my default beater is the Doogie. In other words, I start with Doogies and see what I can ugrade to. I almost always upgrade one to a Zakya as SWatcher protection. The other upgrades depend heavily on what my commander costs and what other support I want to fit in. | | | |
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Vrecknidj
Warlord
10493 Posts
United States
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Prince o the Raven Banner
Sergeant
606 Posts
| | 12/27/2006 11:00 PM |
| Pound for Pound the Doogie is the real deal.
I'd actually add the Efreet and HH to the list.
AS support. Enlarged Duergar, is too big to be fodder, he's a blocker and a good one at that.
Followed by the Diseased Dire Rat, I love that ability.
For "tech" I'd consider
1/2 elf Hexblade
Vargouille
Though both are points on a stick. | |
Two trades completed!! (Krush,Hides From Hurricanes)
Champion of the Aaracokra
Herald Of Snig Goblin King | |
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djtool
Sergeant
584 Posts
Crystal MN, USA
| | 12/28/2006 5:51 AM |
| people always tell me about the zakya but I never see it fielded. I'm sorry but there's only 2 pieces which can field the zakya safely the human blackguard and the blackguard on nightmare. The former is extremely old and only dedicated people bother to get him, the latter hasn't proved to be in the upper echilon (sp?) of competetive pieces yet. Barring those two your fielding urthok for a whopping +12 for a morale check, i'm not buying it. the zakya may prove to be a decent 4th or even 3rd option, especially with the upcoming set, but not as the primary option. God forbid your opponent fields an orc wardrummer.
Orion72 has the champ mentality down right (IMO) in that in addition to being one of the most efficient hitters for LE he also is the cheapest in that regard. Unless i'm trying to field a specific hitter/tech piece I pretty much form my bands from commander, +99 or 132, fodder/filler, then see what I have left to 'switch up' a champ. It seems to me however that the set are gravitating away from the 'quad' mentality.
addtionally (going off of orion72's post) I think LE's best piece at this time is the green dragon, even if he's a hitter/tech hybrid. However that was not the OP's list and as such I went with justicator (conditionally) because you need an answer for the grotto in your LE warband. The zakya does not cut it. he is easily whittled down by auto-damage and save based damage that grotto bands typically have. Also despite being speed 8 he does not fly and can be outmanuevered, giving your opponent a method to counteract his AC.
as far as the dragonmark goes that piece is far from 'auto-include' as far as I'm concerned. she is another tech piece for LE that works best as an 'enabler' for commanders to participate in melee IMO. I see her with the inspired lt, shuluth, maybe human blackguard (his speed is an issue), maybe the red hand (situational), maybe even the trog capt. (vs. a living opponent). I don't see her with urthok, dark naga, or the rakshasa. If your going to field her I think you also need a reliable method to provide a flank for her. I do not see her as a beater option for 3 reasons. one being you need a flank to get maximum efficiency out of her so you've got 3 hitters tied up to one purpose at the start (LE fodder tends to not last long, you can devote a 4th piece to the specific purpose of flanking if you're comfortable with 3 hitters, clumping and positioning may be an issue though). Two is that she will not deal as much damage as a duergar champ and the champ (being level 10) gives you your next best Morale check after a fearless unit (well...LGD is 51 points, thats alot). If you are resolved to using her bodyguard ability (why wouldn't you?) you limit your maneuverability on the map (kind of a rehash of 1 i guess).
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Champion of: Brain in a Jar | |
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SYB
Warrior
328 Posts
| | 12/28/2006 8:23 AM |
| Wow. I am so tired of hearing about the Grotto map. Grotto this. Grotto that. The grotto is not that big a deal. Any halfway decent player can minimize the effect of the grotto map quickly and efficiently. It is even easier if you are using speed 8 figures.
During the Marut craze, I played a Zakya x4, Rakhasa (cmdr) warband (I forget the fodder) during qualifiers. I placed 6th in my qualifier and would have placed in the top four if I hadn't forgotten that blindsight made you immune to gaze attacks. Morale save is not the end all, be all and neither is a specific map.
To rate every piece on only two factors: how it does on Grotto and whether it is a better beater than Duergar Champion is way too limiting. So many other factors matter, too. The reason the DC is the cheapest of the beaters is that, aside from conceal 6, he is entirely vanilla. He moves a mediocre speed 6 and has no offensive or defensive special abilities (besides the already mentioned conceal). Other LE beaters have DR, SR, breath weapon, death burst, higher damage, fearless, etc. The long list of special abilities provides more options on how to play a warband and gives them higher chance to have a REALLY advantageous matchup. The problem with a DC band is that, no matter what band your opponent plays, your matchup is rarely better than slightly advantageous to you. With some of the other hitters, it is much more likely to end up with a large advantage (for example, HH vs. Gith monks).
-SYB | |
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djtool
Sergeant
584 Posts
Crystal MN, USA
| | 12/28/2006 12:15 PM |
| you realize the response to your post is that any half-way decent player can use his maneuverability advantage to out play the zak's...that's just the way it works out. I think what you forgot to mention in your disertation about the champ is that the 33 point cosst permits you to even consider fielding 4 hitters *and* have enough leftover points to upgrade to something else, improve your fodder, or implement snig to carry you over 8 activations. Besides nobody said that the champ is so great that you should field 4 of them. What was said though was that they are the best for that point range and represent the least amount of points you have to spend to field a quality piece...that's why they are a fantastic baseline figure when constructing a warband.
And I think morale is a big deal, especially with a fast moving piece. With very little in the way of support, I need my big guns in for the long haul. If the zakya had some sort of ranged threat or ranged auto--damage I'd warm up to him. But he does not and I can plug in more reliable pieces that do offer me some sort of compensation for a less then desireable save. All that being said, at this stage of the previews for unhallowed, I would think his value will rise due to chill touch. | |
Champion of: Brain in a Jar | |
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Helzapoppn
Warrior
258 Posts
| | 12/28/2006 12:59 PM |
| | You forgot Cleave, SYB. Besides the Duergar Champ, none of the other LE midrange beaters have it. | |
Champion of Iconics & the Apparatus of Kwalish (Constructs with Drivers? Brilliant!)
Dungeons of Dread Called Shot: Yeah, right | |
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jacksonm
Warlord
5560 Posts
River City
| | 12/28/2006 1:31 PM |
| Go tigermen! 
Fast, good damage and decent attacks plus a truestrike. Spell resistance is always handy as is blind fight. DR never hurts either. | | | |
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Sirohk
Commander
3938 Posts
USA
| | 12/28/2006 2:53 PM |
| Posted By Sirohk on 12/27/2006 5:22 AM Posted By Thenameless on 12/27/2006 1:55 AM
There really is no choice here, as far as which hitter is best in general - it has to be the Duergar Champion. The others might be better in some situations, but the Duergar Champion is the best overall. I really like the DC, but I like Zakya over the DC. He can deal with a greater varied meta with his True Strike, Chill Touch, DR, and AC 22. Throw in Blind-Fight versus Conceal & Invisible opponents. Zakya hits at +14 / +9 versus +15 / +10 for the Duergar. His major drawback is his level 7, but this is easily solved by using the HBG. The DC has AC 20, is 3 pts cheaper, and then relies on Conceal 6 to survive, which is not too bad. Still, I like the Zak a little better. Also, as someone else mentioned, where the Helmed Horror on the beater list?
I'll quote myself here. I really like both the Duergar Champion and the Zakya Rashasa. Both are great pieces for thier cost and for me almost auto includes in any LE warband I build.Â
But there have been many times (almost too many) where I wish I had included a Zakya when I went with Duergar Champs instead.Â
But that's just me.Â
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Sirohk, the Bard of Heartstone
Knight of the Rahshasa's
And Crusader of the Zakya, Ak'chazar, Naztharune, and Naityan Rakshasa's | |
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Tooninki
Warrior
272 Posts
Finland
| | 12/29/2006 3:42 AM |
| Duergar champ, i have 5 of them  | |
Life is...
Vindicated AtG shot: Shadow Giant (Death Titan)
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froffenhoffer
Sergeant
702 Posts
| | 12/29/2006 4:02 AM |
| | Some annoying UK person plays 5 every tournament because he did well in a tourney with it once... but now he just loses.. HAHAHA.. my apologies gritbone | |
Champion of Wildshaped druid in with natural spell!
Thus said froffenhoffer
The Official through the heart, and im to blame archer. | |
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Lord_rock
Underboss
2045 Posts
Portland OR
| | 12/31/2006 5:49 PM |
| Forget the soulknife you have... he visits you in your sleep he does... +16 for 30 not hit good enough for you??? hard to please you are...
leaves room for Darkmoon and/or more expensive beater... good stuff I tells ya... | |
Rock Bottom Pricing:
Arcane Archer 30, Centaur Hero 67, Human Cleric of Bane 25, Gold Champion 34, Death Knight 52, Goblin Blackblade 9, Silentwolf Goblin 7, Orc Raider 10, Dwarf axefighter 9, Healer 9, Thaskor 65, Aspect of Demogorgon 71, Ogre 9, Fire Giant 79, Human Wanderer 7, Drunken Master 18, Barghest 12, Longstider Barbarian 27, Longtooth Barbarian 22, Frost Giant 76, Ravenous Vampire 42, Large Earth Elemental: priceless | |
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Mortusbard
Sergeant
427 Posts
North Carolina
| | 01/01/2007 3:44 PM |
| I actually like the justicator and think he gets to many votes of no confidence.
Zak and DC are great but to common | |
Unto Death We Strive,
From Birth unto the Dust, | |
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John05
Warrior
246 Posts
| | 01/01/2007 5:16 PM |
| Having seen a *couple dozen* games (by other players) and played several games (myself) on Grotto against LE and CE multi-hitter bands using ranged (typical CG Storm Quint and Storm Ranged bands), I can safely say that it *is* a big deal. Grotto doesn't hurt CE as much as it does LE, because CE multi hitter bands using Red Sams and Orc Champs tend to be fast enough. HGB comes close to the Red Sam on Grotto, but don't underestimate how much the Grotto slows down large figures compare to medium ones.
It's that bad... to the point where if your opponent has a two or three mobile hitters that can hit while moving (Valenar and Bralani), a vanilla Quad Duergar very likely loses to a competent opponent.
On the outset; Static analysis of Grotto:
- Takes a long time for Melee to reach the other side to attack a ranged band.
- Ranged figures can continue attacking using ranged rather than melee even when based, because they have forest cover.
- Ranged figures can move away without taking attacks of opportunity.
So Grotto basically eliminates many of the weaknesses of dedicated ranged figures. Before: they could not use their ranged attacks while based; they usually only had a shot or two at most before they were based; they'd take attacks of opportunity for moving away.
All of those weaknesses were taken away.
That's not all. More profound problems will only reveal themselves if we shift from a static analysis of raw numbers (in a vacuum), stats and rules, and actually analyze the situation dynamically. On Grotto, mobility is obviously important, but what does it imply? The LE band will have a hard time approaching the CG band.
The amateur approach:
Rush with everything using the same shortest route for every figure, hoping to catch the CG band. This is a sure-fire way to lose because the CG band can move and shoot, being faster than you. Another reason this tactic falls flat on its face. Storm's line and Whirlwind Blast has a much easier time hitting all of your figures at the same time, as Grotto really doesn't have *that* many pathways of approach for the enemy.
The common approach:
Take more than one path, cover more ground on the grotto. That way, when they hit and run, they can't run from *all* of your LE beaters at the same time. The problem with this solution is immediately obvious. You're splitting up your forces against a highly mobile band. The CG Storm band can jump and attack the weaker force and take it out before the other half of your hitters even reach the battle. You're not fighting the CG enemy with your entire band at the same time. That Valenar harassing your fodder just needs to fly 24 and attack along the way back to reach the battle, wherever it is. That bralani can fly 8 and fire off a Whirlwind Blast (total threat range around 20 squares distance) before joining next round. And so on...
The gradual realization:
You're often screwed unless you've got something faster than speed 6 nonflying melee beaters. Just hope the enemy misses often enough against you while you sit on the victory areas doing nothing. The victory areas offer no cover or very little of it. Bite your lips as enemy Flying Valenar take snipe shots at your commander and fodder and the bralani shoot freely from areas that have perfect LOS (no cover) at your campers. You probably realize by now that Helmed Horrors, Justicators, and Large Green Dragons might have been a nice investment of points, despite looking slightly less efficient than the ubiquitous Duergar Champions.
The idea that "It is even easier [to handle the Grotto] if you are using speed 8 figures," should be changed to "it gives you a chance if you have speed 8 nonflying figures." However, we then need to wonder if *all* of the beaters are Speed 8 beaters? If not, then perhaps the Zakya reaches the battle earlier than the duergar? Or perhaps he takes a different path. Would they reach the battle at the same time? Would that Human Blackguard, with his speed 4 (nonflying) be able to keep up with double-moving Zakyas on Grotto, to keep them in range for Tyrannical Morale? It's likely that, against a typical CG Storm ranged band on Grotto, factoring in early ranged damage (I consider flying Mounted Melee attacks to be a form of ranged attack), Whirlwind Blast, Silverfire, and other forms of autodamage... half of the Zakyas will route from before they make their first attack.
DJTool is a strong LE player, IMO, so it's worth noting if he mentions Grotto and thinks of it as a problem for LE bands. His suggestions (such as the LGD) and comments are spot on. At least on Vassal, Large Green Dragon is currently a well-known foil for many CG bands (both on and off Grotto), and a piece that not many current CG players want to face (I don't either). Pegasus_Knight, a highly devoted CG player himself (in fact, I don't think he plays any other faction) admits that he doesn't know many pieces in CG that actually counter the LGD. At best they stand on about even ground. The breath weapon's 25 damage (a very nice benchmark number vs CG) at DC 17 is a killer against many common CG commanders (either routing or killing outright), ranged figures (such as graycloaks), eat wand experts alive (and resist their acid wands, to add insult to injury), and are even problematic for Archmages (high HP to survive swords for a few rounds, resist Acid, and Fly fast enough to chase him down or just kill the Inspiring Marshal that usually accompanies him). They have Speed F9, making it very easy to cross the gap on Grotto. They have high HP and high saves, and their improved flanking cancels out with the +4 AC that forest cover grants to figures. As DJTool pointed out, they are situationally one of the best LE has to offer if you're willing to look at the pieces outside of a vacuum (where it would seem that Duergars are still on top).
Justicator is also decent, but LGD gives me nightmares as a current CG fan.
Horned Devil is also a decent foil for Grotto ranged bands, but he's not really a mid-point beater. :/
~John | |
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Sirohk
Commander
3938 Posts
USA
| | 01/02/2007 4:10 AM |
| Posted By Lord_rock on 12/31/2006 5:49 PM
Forget the soulknife you have... he visits you in your sleep he does... +16 for 30 not hit good enough for you??? hard to please you are...
leaves room for Darkmoon and/or more expensive beater... good stuff I tells ya...
Getting the +16 ATT for the Soulknife is not really realistic. Â
+8 Base
+2 CFX (Uthhok or Inspired Lt)
+4 Flank (if with LGD)
+2 Defender Unable to see attacker (Soulknife Hiding)
-------
+16
Getting all of those to work at the same time is asking for an awful lot, or more likely for your opponent to let all that happen.Â
You are more likely to get +10 total attack regularly.Â
But I totally agree, the Soulknife needs a second look at. With Sidestep, Sneak Attack, Smite, and Hide the Soulknife could be a decent fit into certain warbands. And he's a decent Level 8. I was thinking for the cost he might fit in well with the Aspect of Hextor (for flanking effect) + Dragonmark (bodyguard) + decent Commander.Â
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Sirohk, the Bard of Heartstone
Knight of the Rahshasa's
And Crusader of the Zakya, Ak'chazar, Naztharune, and Naityan Rakshasa's | |
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Orion72
Underboss
1917 Posts
| | 01/02/2007 5:56 AM |
| Posted By Sirohk on 01/02/2007 4:10 AM
Getting the +16 ATT for the Soulknife is not really realistic. Â
+8 Base
+2 CFX (Uthhok or Inspired Lt)
+4 Flank (if with LGD)
+2 Defender Unable to see attacker (Soulknife Hiding)
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+16
Getting all of those to work at the same time is asking for an awful lot, or more likely for your opponent to let all that happen.Â
Matt, Matt, Matt... *shakes head sadly*
You've forgotten that the Soulknife is the Psionic soldier that the I Loo has waited for since her release. She grants Soulknives a +4 to attack from her CFX, and getting flanking with a Large flying creature like the LGD sounds really really simple. There's your +16, and it's not asking for much at all.
The real problem with Soulknives is that the Sneak Attacks are limited-use. That, plus their fragility - a clever player can probably keep them alive long enough to deliver a big punch, but don't expect them to stay around after that. | | | |
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Ryoga
Underboss
1124 Posts
Coquimbo - Chile / Italia
| | 01/02/2007 5:58 AM |
| @ Sirohk, if you check betetr is not difficult to reach +16 with SoulKnife...... Inspired Liutenant gives +4 Attack (Because he haves Psionics) and Green dragon gives +4 flanking........ thats easy....... The dragon needs to be Alive to gives imporved flanking and and Cfx is easy to gives when you check the durability of IL.
SoulKnife is awesome unit..... Sorry about his poor morale....
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Dealing with new life... new country and life without DDM :(
Some day I will be back in board | |
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Sirohk
Commander
3938 Posts
USA
| | 01/02/2007 9:52 AM |
| Posted By Orion72 on 01/02/2007 5:56 AM
You've forgotten that the Soulknife is the Psionic soldier that the I Loo has waited for since her release. She grants Soulknives a +4 to attack from her CFX, and getting flanking with a Large flying creature like the LGD sounds really really simple. There's your +16, and it's not asking for much at all.
The real problem with Soulknives is that the Sneak Attacks are limited-use. That, plus their fragility - a clever player can probably keep them alive long enough to deliver a big punch, but don't expect them to stay around after that.
That's the part I forgot: +4 from the Inspired Lt as the Soulknife is Psionic. See, you get minis, don't use them because you think they are meh, and such little details slip through the cracks. I have not yet used the Soulknife (I definmately need to try him out) and only rarely used the Inspired Lt.Â
+8 Base
+4 CFX (Inspired Lt)
+4 Flank from LGD
-----
+16
But I agree on their being  fragile and the limited use of the Smite and Sneak Attacks hurts.Â
I aslo agree the we definately need a few more Psionic based beaters to go with the Inspired LT.Â
Lets say we build a warband around this base:
Inspired Lt 45
Large Green Dragon 51
Soulknife 24
That's 120 points. What else could / should we add to optimize this warband? Any ideas everyone?Â
There's room for x2 Duergar Champions + 14 pts fodder. Or a Maug + DC + 6 pts fodder.Â
Edited. Â
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Sirohk, the Bard of Heartstone
Knight of the Rahshasa's
And Crusader of the Zakya, Ak'chazar, Naztharune, and Naityan Rakshasa's | |
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Orion72
Underboss
1917 Posts
| | 01/02/2007 9:58 AM |
| Posted By Sirohk on 01/02/2007 9:52 AM
+2 Attack from concealed position (on a forest map theres a good chance of this)
They don't get any benefit from Hide when attacking adjacent creatures, whether they have cover or not.
My first thought was I Loo, LGD and 4 Soulknives, but too fragile. I think no matter how you work it, you come up with a poor man's Quad. The Soulknives would really only be an alternative for me if I was already using the I Loo, and had the points to turn one of my Quad hitters into 2 Soulknives to make my Quad a Quint.
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