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Subject: Will Epic Multi-Beater bands ever work?

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Man of Renown
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The Red Light District

01/09/2007 12:18 PM  
With the overwhelming prevalence of Titan figs in Epic play, does anybody think it will ever be feasible to win with something similar to an LE/CE quad in 500 pt. games? Personally, it's just not near as fun for me to burn 6 completely meaningless activations and then have Tordek save the day(or Bahamut breathe on the start area again...etc. etc.). I would much rather play a multi hitter group where nearly every activation was contributing to the success/failure of the band, but, unfortunately, I just don't think it's possible to have a good, balanced force like that and be competitive.

I don't think it will ever happen personally, but maybe a WBC down the road with 500 pt. but no epic pieces would be fun? Whaddya think?

Of course, I'd have to win one to set my own rules and I doubt that'll ever happen

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01/09/2007 3:00 PM  
Using multi-beaters in epic depends a little on how you define "beater" and how many is needed for "multi."

Although you can disagree, all those CG warbands that start with a pair of Epic Storm Archers have what I'd call multiple beaters. Although not as successful now multiple Fomorians should still be taken seriously when they show up.

The problem with a "multi-beater" band in epic is that to cost a unit cheaply enough that running four is possible usually will put them directly into the role of 200pt titan. The reason many of those 200pt Titans don't multiply into epic beaters is that they aren't so good against stronger targets. Even for their cost they need some kind of weakness to keep from dominating 200 pt play and in epic that weakness is usually big enough to keep them from getting run in multiples.

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The Red Light District

01/09/2007 3:26 PM  
Yeah, I was thinking more along the lines of Tri-Quad-Quint when I made the post. Prolly shoulda been more specific.....something like this......

Fire Giant Forgepriest
War Troll
Iron Golem
Cadaver Collector x2
Shuluth
Diseased Dire Rat
Greenspawn Sneak

I'm gonna try this band out the next time I play, just for fun. Lots of synergy with the Forgepriest anyway I just think Epic would be more diverse and interesting if the Titans of the 200 point game were viable as Epics answer to the 30-45 point beater.

But, then again, I'm just not a big fan of the Titan playstyle.

Eye dun no why youse guys think im not relly a person im jimgang from canada but im moving to cali as soon as i get a master card
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Damien the Bloodfeaster
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Portland, OR

01/09/2007 4:56 PM  

One big difference between regular and epic quads is that many commander effects that are worthwhile in 200 points are far less valuable in 500. For example, an Eye of Gruumsh/Orc Champ quad's extra 5 damage per blow is significant in 200 point play, but not nearly as much in 500.

The sweet spot in 500 points for quad hitters should be around 100 points per mini. That allows you to have four such hitters and 100 points left over for tech and a solid commander.

Most of the LG's potential beaters in this category tend to do too little damage or have too low a hit chance for their cost; in epic play, where you will often see minis with AC 26+, having a primary attack bonus less than, say, +16 is not good; ideally it should be around +20 or more. For LG, the best figures in this range are the Marut (74 points) and the Solar (105 points). The first suffers from its low hit points, which makes it a quick kill against most epic bands, and having a bodyguard isn't nearly as effective as in 200 point play. The solar is decent, but is a commander, so it won't benefit from others' commander effects, meaning you won't get as much synergy as a quad band should have.

For CG there are even fewer options available: the Centaur Hero (78 points) is marginal; Epic Guenhwyvar doesn't do enough damage; Epic Rikka (143 points) is good, but you can only have one of her. Dual Storm Archers and Dual Epic Griffon Cavalry bands are solid, but these minis are too expensive to form a solid quad or even three-hitter band.

CE has some interesting choices, such as the Marilith (73 points, but damage level and attack bonuses are on the low side) and Balor (damage a bit low and is a commander, so no synergy). The Fomorian (119 points) is a solid hitter for a tri-hitter band, but with its huge-size base it is difficult to bring them all to bear at once against a single foe. The Githyanki Dragon Knight (98 points) might be worth consideration though, especially with Vaaklith and possibly the Large Red Dragon.

The LE faction has IMO the best options right now for a quad hitter epic band, including the Aspects of Hextor, Nerull, and Bane; the Horned Devil, the Fire Giant Forgepriest, the Iron Golem, War Troll, Thaskor, the Cadaver Collector, and the Pit Fiend. The Fire Giant Forgepriest in particular looks promising for a quad hitter epic band, since it grants magic damage to things like the Iron Golem and Cadaver Collector that otherwise could not get it.


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Myrtle Beach, SC

01/09/2007 4:56 PM  
Fire Giant Forgepriest
War Troll
Iron Golem
Cadaver Collector x2
Shuluth
Diseased Dire Rat
Greenspawn Sneak


I saw this and suddered a little. Looks pretty scary. Has a ton of damage and a ton of hp. Wonder how it would stand up to some of the Epic Titans. Tordek is a beast though.

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Boulder, CO

01/09/2007 6:27 PM  
I'm a novice skirmish player, but I played epic last week with the following band:

Fire Giant Forgepriest
Cadaver Collector x 2
Beholder
Lord Soth (non-epic)
Skeletal Equiceph
Greenspawn Sneak x 2

I was chewed apart by an Aspect of Tiamat/FGFP/DMHD plus fodder. I didn't get Soth into the action nearly fast enough, but the AoT's dual activations and breath weapons were way too much for me. It could have been inexperience, but this band didn't feel like the sum of its parts. And I couldn't roll over a 12 for the Beholder.

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Wadsworth, OH

01/09/2007 6:29 PM  
There was a band that was discussed somewhat back when Underdark came out that would probably qualify as multi beater. I am not sure how well it would perform now however.

Large Silver Dragon x2
Aspect of Kord x2
Coautl x2
Sword of Heironeous

This was the core from back then. Use the LSD's to do as much damage as possible then bring in the Kords to clean up. Coautl's can double the kords' damage output.




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01/09/2007 8:02 PM  
How about 4 Dragon Knights and the queen with filler. Does it work? I don't know but it has a lot of options. Damge is high for a beater band. hit and run might not work but it has a good chance. It would be great on the teleporter or the frostfell. Tordek is tough and would win and bahamut would push too. I think you can beat bahamut. In fact I am bold enough to say you could beat him on the porter. Odds are in his favor, but I like underdogs, that need a good pilot.

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01/09/2007 8:31 PM  
I have hear of Triads working but for a larger distribution LE is definitely the way to go. To me a key in an epic quad is either having some diversity (such as the collection of LE beaters) or being highly consistent.

A few possible cores:
Large Silver Dragon x3 - very old school but does get some support from newer pieces.
Epic Storm Archers x2/Gheale Eladrin - the GE is a glass cannon in epic but if the archers get extra activations look out.
Beholder x5 - with 10 activations you should get some good roles.


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01/09/2007 11:30 PM  
There was a tourney report recently wheree a person beat tordek and a bahumut band with:
3x CC
1 FGFP
1 Lord soth
Fodder.

Its a nasty band.. so much damage and 3 paralysis saves..

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01/10/2007 4:56 AM  
Posted By Wraithborne on 01/09/2007 12:18 PM
With the overwhelming prevalence of Titan figs in Epic play, does anybody think it will ever be feasible to win with something similar to an LE/CE quad in 500 pt. games?
Ever?  Yes.  Right now, there might even be a few, and hints in the right direction have been mentioned.  But, as has been pointed out, even the Firegiant Forgepriest is only moderately tough in epic.  His AC, which is great in 200-point play, is nothing special in epic.

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Randolph, NJ

01/10/2007 6:28 AM  
For kicks I ran a couple times:

Epic Rikka
Epic Griffon Cavalry
Epic Storm Archer
Regdar
Xeph x 2 or 3

And took down Bahamut.
Regdar went down pretty quickly as expected, but Rik and Storm made their saves and the EpGrCav is fearless.
AoB had to keep inching up to get at the storm archer, woudl would then step and shoot, while the griffon would charge, then attack and move away with the aoo, then charge again.

AoB and Tordek bands without a sreious ranged threat or second beater could have trouble with a tri-hitter band with decent saves or fearless.

I was thinking the Elf Dragonkith might be a good epic candidate, he is rare, nice figure and there is only on other epic fighter to date. He already has decent AB, so going to epic he should be in the mid +20's, maybe 20hp mighty attack.

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01/10/2007 10:49 AM  
If you want to call the Archmage a beater it works well some of the time in fours or three with Elminster.


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Randolph, NJ

01/11/2007 7:37 AM  
Yes - Elminster + 3 x AMage + Evermeet Wizard went 3-0 at our little epic tourney this summer.
It beat Tiamat + LFD and LGD, Tordek and Aob+kord+coutal bands.

9 mord swords is tough! Though - against another multi (melee) beater band, where there are lots of HP, it might be tough.

Today, I think you drop the evermeet for a trickster, then the Amage drop the swords and poof they are gone.

Unless you have some sort of flying beater to get to the gnome quickly.
Probelm in this band is that Elminster will have a second invisibility spell.

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jeremiahcarissa
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01/11/2007 8:04 AM  
The archmage thing is just unstoppable but I have to sya they would have a tough time with beater bands. On top of that titan builds in epic have a hard time with beaters b\c they can't focus on one man they have to worry about all of them.

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01/11/2007 8:05 AM  
Multiple formorians used the be a good band. I think they suffer now a bit due to save=10, their hugeness, and the fact that they do not fly or burrow.

I recently played against a band with 5 horned devils and a mounted blackguard. It was pretty tough.


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Crystal MN, USA

01/11/2007 8:43 AM  
i've been meaning to try a pit fiend (105 pts) and multi thaskor band, but I haven't had the chance.

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