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Subject: WBC IX: Round 2

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Autoxdsm
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Myrtle Beach, SC

01/13/2007 1:11 PM  
Same deal is last time.  You don't have to be a contestant to vote.  Just pick who you think will win each match up.  Good luck everyone.Â

Match 1:
G.
Crow Shaman 26pts
Dragonmark Heir of House Deneith 34pts
Eberk, Adventurer 16pts
Fire Giant Forgepriest 84pts
Greenspawn Sneak 6pts
Hunting Hyena 5pts
Inspiring Marshal 29pts

It's a Titan Build for Drow Outpost. Crow Shaman can cat's grace the FGFP and snake swiftness it all day long. Inspiring Marshal can help ensure that engaged enemies do not leave (+3 to hit vs AoO), Grant Move Action to secure the center and two swings on engagement, the CMD rating of 4 is ok, but not great, with Eberk granting +1 to save that's still only a save of 10+1+4 = 15. Cat's Grace and divine protection together give the FGFP AC26. Hunting Hyena is for flanking and fodder hunting with Sneak. Sneak is for tile grabbing. Dragonmark acts as a secondary hitter and gives FGFP immunity to it's major weakness.

P.
Marut -  74
Marilith - 73
Mind Flayer - 35
Mialee, Elf Wizard - 6
Man at Arms x3 - 3(9 total)
Mongrelfolk - 3

Map: Hellspike


Strategy: This warband has two solid beaters that both have blindsight, DR 5, and spell resistance. On Hellspike, the blindsight should give them a solid
edge, allowing them to use their melee reach 2, even while in smoke.
In general, the strategy will be for Mialee to give magic weapon to the Marut and to lead with whichever titan is best suited for standing in front. Thus, against fire damage or lightning damage, Marilith should lead the charge. Against someone trying to do morale tricks (Orc Wardrummer, Mind Flayer, Purple Dragon Knight as an example), lead with the Marut. The Mind Flayer can send his cone through the Marut safely and every effort should be made to use a stun cone every round. Also, the M@A and Mongrelfolk can be used as cone aiming points and should be (having little other use). One M@A or mongrelfolk can get first turn tile points if correctly placed in the 2x2 starting area, and this should be attempted if possible.

Specific Strategies:
Archmage: It is possible for there to be a commander 7 Archmage band. SR
will help a lot here, but even one sword could spell doom for the Marut. Best strategy here is to focus on the support and only waste time with the AM if he becomes a "reasonable" target.
Letter C: The only titan at C is Centaur Warhulk. Still a Centaur Warhulk
with a Crow Shaman, Couatl, and Cleric of Dol Arrah (most likely on Drow
Outpost) is fierce. Be VERY wary of the whirlwind and charge and try to flank the Warhulk to take out the back field as quickly as possible.
Dual Titan: There are a number of possibilities (AoM & AoK, FGFP & AoK, HGB & HGC, etc.). Stun cone is the difference in these battles. Try to get it off on both titans. In general, one should fail a save, and that should swing the battle.

Match 2:
A.
crow shaman 26
duergar champ 33
elf warrior 4
fire giant forge priest 84
green spawn sneak 6
healer 12
inspiring marshal 29
map: mushroom cavern

strategy is use crow shaman to beef up ac on giant and doogie, maybe marshal and elf warrior (mainly for ranged bonus). sneak for victory area points,
blue can have a chance for 5 damage each turn for support from the back,
fire giant moves into battle and gets SS from crow shammy, duergar finds a way to fit into the battle, possibly going around to opponents back lines.
healer stands next to FGFP and heals. Elf warrior might move away to shoot at their victory area fodder, possibly with blue as well. marshal GMA is
ussed at critical time to get the 2 hitters into the right spot to kill, and
with melee reach 2 and cleave with a 30 damage attack on FGFP you can get into some nice spots. Crow shammy w/ FGFP should be near 90 damage a round and if he cleaves on his turn and on shammy's turn that would be 150 damage a round, then doogie as a back up hitter means massive damage output. Chastise spirits can be used on SWarm.

I.
Duergar Champ 33
Efreeti 75
Helmed Horror 120
Gnome trickster 147
Inspiring marshal 176
Jozan 180
Kobold miner 183
Formion warrior 199
Goes for entry B.
Map: Blood Dungeon.

The map is nice and open for my 3 beaters, as well as there being a sacred
circle for the horror nf the Efreeti. tactics: Normal tri-beater band. Gnome trickster sends the lot of them invisible (though against some bands, the formian will stay seeable for his ability to block spells with his immunities and his fast pace. The beaters will try to surround the oponents "central piece" using the IM's GMA, and the rickster can dish out some damage while flanking, so in a pinch can be a reserve beater. Lategame Formion/Jozan gets tilepoints.


Match 3:
K.
Crow Shaman
Dragonmark Heir of Denieth
Elf Warrior
Fire Giant Forgepriest
Greenspawn Sneak
Healer
Inspiring Marshal
Jozan, Cleric of Pelor
199 points
Map: Drow Outpost
Strategy: Use GMA (if needed) to get the Fire Giant up to the choke point on the bridge. Dragonmark Heir will make the Fire Giant immune to Cold, as well as provide his nice bodyguard ability and potentially moving to provide a cover bonus as well. Crow Shaman can buff the AC of the Forgepriest and give extra attacks from Snake's Swiftness. Healer will be able to use heals to keep the Fire Giant and the Dragonmark in the game a little longer. Jozan also has a small heal that may help. Greenspawn sneak is a tile grabber. Elf warrior can be used to plink from range, but more than likely will end up being a road bump somewhere. The Forgepriest will be getting extra attacks form the Crow Shaman as well as an improved AC of 25 due to Cat's Grace, or 29 if you can position Jozan/Elf Warrior to provide cover from reach or ranged attacks.

C.
Fiendish Dire Weasel
Goblin Skirmisher
Half Orc Paladin
Inspiring Marshal
Justice Archon
Kolbald Miner
Lidda, Halfing Rogue
Marilith
Dragonshrine Temple

The Archon and Marilith are my main Beaters. Paired with the HOP they do a good amount of damage. With the GMA I make sure to get a full 6 swings of. Lidda can shoot at some fodder pieces. The Kobold and Goblin should get Tile points or stay on energy areas if I get my map. The best targets for the Marilith are DHoD, commander with equal to or lower then 60 HP and some low HP Beaters with bad morale saves, like OC without Drummer. When she has ended there lives she can assist the HOP and Justice Archon bringing down the the last thread.

Match 4:
E.
Inspiring marshal 29
Jozan cleric of pelor 4
Kobold miner 3
Large fang dragon 42
Maralith 73
Nothic 10
Orc champion 39
Playing on mushroom tangle.

Strategy: move into position over the first few turns, then use inspiring marshall to set up a devestating maralith, OC and Fang Dragon attack.

N.
Quaggoth Slave 10
Regdar, Human Fighter 6
Skeletal Legionnaire 4
Tordek, Dwarf Champion 59
Urthok the Vicious 34
Vlaakith 79
Wolf 5
Xeph Warrior 3
Map: Keep of Fallen Kings I

I figure commander 5 ought to get me my map often enough. The strategy is to get to the central victory areas and hold my own while preventing my opponent from holding his. With Urthok and Vlaakith near Tordek, Tordek is a monster. Additionally, the Quaggoth Slave becomes a terrifying prospect against paralyzed foes. The early fireball could help reduce my opponent's VA grabbers, and the near-guarantee of 30-damage from the disintegrate means I can whittle a titan down to size before Tordek engages.

*Sorry it is a little late today is my b-day *


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Albuquerque, NM, USA

01/13/2007 6:15 PM  
P
A
C
E

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The Red Light District

01/13/2007 6:35 PM  
1. P
2. I
3. C
4. N

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River City

01/13/2007 8:33 PM  
1: P
2: A
3: K
4: E

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01/13/2007 11:38 PM  
1. P - Marilith saves the day. Forgepriest could take down the Marut with ease, but the added Marilith is too much.
2. A - Most of I's damage is nerfed thanks to fire immunity, and cleave just isnt good for multiple beaters.
3. K - The Justice Archon is nearly useless agains the giant, so it boils down to Marilith vs. Forgepriest. The latter, imo, has better support.
4. E - Between the Marilith, Fang Dragon and OC, Vlaakith wont have enough spells to kill nearly enough of them. And she wont hold long in melee against them either.

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01/14/2007 2:07 AM  
P. Goodbye marut, the goodbye fgfp
2. I. Well thi one is close. I think the fgfp just doesnt quite win the matchup because: He takes 4 hits to kill efreeti, 4 on the duergar, 4 on the HH and with the trickster the other band can go round and take his healer and crow, and he has no bodygaurd...
3. C the archon goes round the outside for to hurt Cs/ Healer, and he marilith is really good against FGFG's.
4.E never saw lakith tordek going far..

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01/14/2007 4:52 AM  
1.  P
2.  A
3.  K
4.  N

My votes.Â


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01/14/2007 5:24 AM  
P - I'm not entirely sure the Marut and Marilith will bea ble to take down the FGFP with the DHoD to back him up. There is the added advantage of being able to make the Giant immune to sonic. The AC of the giant in this band will be 26 so the Marut needs a 6 to hit. The Marut should hit 75% of the time. The Marilith will hit 45% of the time as it needs an 10 to hit after Mialee gives it magic weapon. The FGFP will need a 2 and a 3 to hit the Marilith and a 4 and a 9 to hit the Marut. This assumes he recieves Magic Weapon from Eberk. Now, when you take the Crow Shaman into account the FGFP has enough damage output to possibly kill the Marut in one round. He would need to roll a 4 (80%), 9(55%), 4(80%). I thought the Marut was resistant to fire, but the stats i have access to at work say he is not. Against the Marilith, who is immune to fire, the FGFP will have a harder time, but should hit more consistantly. It should be a fairly even fight when you take into account the DHoD and the Crow Shaman. Also, don't forget that there should be a cleave attack or two in there as well. Ideally G would seek to take out the Marut first, then try for the Marilith or the Mindflayer. The stun cones are really the problem for G. Eventually the FGFP will fail some, and that will hurt. Also, if the Mind Flayer is close enough to use his stun cone, then it is close enough to use its commander effect. This means that the FGFP has a Morale save of 11 (10+4+1 -4) and will need a 9 to pass. This is a 60/40 shot.I think this matchup will be a lot closer than the votes are showing. If the FGFP passes that Morale save, then this match should go to the FGFP band. However, if the dice are slightly below average for G, then its over. That being said, im giving the advantage to P, as it has fewer variables required ofr it to win. I think this might be the band to beat.
A - Efreet and Helmed horror really hurt by fire immunity. The FGFP band has the advantage of being able to adjust themselves to whichever angle the attack comes from. Also, the Ac of the FGFP will be pretty high again, and the beaters will have a hard time hitting. When you factor in the Duergar Champion, i just don't think that band I will be able to handle everything.
K - I've already dicussed the Marilith vs. FGFP in the first match. This band has the advantage of a healer, but that drops the AC and attack of the FGFP by 1. Probably an even trade over the course of the match. The Justice Archon will have a very hard time hitting the AC of the Giant, and the Giant should be able to protect the weaker pieces if they bunch up, since there isn't really a cone attack or AOE effects in this match.
N - E will have a hard time preventing the spells that Vlaakith brings to the table from causing Havoc early on. By the time the melee battle is joined E's beaters will have a hard time dealing with the melee threat that Tordek presents. Also, with the lower saves, Vlaakith should bea ble to get her paralysis off on one of them as well.

Edit: changed a few things.

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01/14/2007 5:26 AM  
1)  G

2)  A

3)  C

4)  E

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01/14/2007 5:56 AM  
1: P
2: I
3: C
4: E

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01/14/2007 6:35 AM  
Votes
1. P
2. A
3. K
4. N

Comments
1. If the map is Hellspike, I almost certainly have to give it to P, if the map is Drow Outpost, it's a little tougher choice, but, the Marut can hold the bridge long enough for the Firegiant to lose enough hit points that the Marilith can then finish him off.
2. The match starts off in I's favor, as the three hitters outmaneuver A's pieces and start picking off pieces. But, the Firegiant gets into the game as I's figures become visible and starts evening up the score.
3. The Marilith just cannot do enough without sufficient support. The Justice Archon could really hurt the Firegiant, but it can't hit reliably, and the Bodyguard just nerfs it anyway.
4. E's band doesn't have anything to prevent Vlaakith's spells from having an early effect. If the saves go badly, E is really in trouble, if the saves go well, then N has to play carefully so as not to engage Tordek on his own too early. If Urthok and Vlaakith are brought into play quickly enough, then the three of them can take care of E's hitters.

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01/14/2007 8:32 AM  
1.  P
2. A
3. K
4. E

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01/14/2007 6:22 PM  
1) P
2) A
3) K
4) N



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01/14/2007 7:35 PM  
P - One frightened Titan vs. two
A
K
N


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Albuquerque, NM, USA

01/14/2007 8:05 PM  
1) P: 11 G: 2
2) A: 10 I: 3
3) K: 8 C: 5
4) E: 8 N: 5

It's pretty clear how 1 and 2 are falling out. 3 and 4 could still swing, though, so don't stop voting, folks.

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01/15/2007 3:32 AM  
G. The DHoD takes the damage as long as it will take to bring the Marilith down. 1 on 1 between Marut and FGFP the Giant takes it home.

A. Fire Immunity helps against two of the main threats, and with an own DC it brings the win.

C. The Archon teams up with the Paladin and engage the FGFP, while the Marilith via GMA goes to the DHoD. With a full round swing it should be over with bodyguarding. And the FGFP with SS can't bring both (Paladin and Archon) down. Then again he's facing two figures Marilith and Archon or Marilith and Paladin. That should decide it.

N. E can't hit relaible on Tordek and Vlaakith is a great thread too.

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01/15/2007 7:27 AM  
Interesting voting so far. It does appear that these last two matches are yet undecided. More votes...

Dave

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01/15/2007 9:07 AM  
1. G
2. A
3. K (Fire Immune does hurt, but should be even enough with the HH and Efreet flying in back to wreak havoc, I still don't think it'll be enough for the win)
4. N (Large Fang won't offer much without a lucky shot, which leaves Tordek and Vlaakith vs Marilith and OC, Vlaakith should wipe the board vs the OC, but Tordek and Marilith will be closer)


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01/15/2007 9:27 AM  
1: P
2: A
3: K
4: E

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01/15/2007 10:56 AM  
My vote
1. G
2. A
3. K
4. E

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01/15/2007 11:26 AM  
1. P - On Hellspike this skirmish is a no brainer. The fog neuters the Crow Shaman and allows P's titans to attacks from reach 2 (which FGFP can't do). Drow Outpost is a lot trickier. Due to the Mind Flayer, the FGFP has a 40% chance to fail morale. Also, the Crow Shaman is likely to fail at least one stun save, and either the bodyguard or the fire giant is likely to fail once (though it is unlikely they will both fail). Even such, I think the edge is slightly in the favor of G on Drow Outpost, but not enough to outweigh the advantage P has on Hellspike.

2. A - I think that warband I has the tools to win this fight, but the strategy listed will fall flat. It is a shame, too. Both maps are bad for warband A and warband I has the potential to shred all of the warband A's support before it ever gets used. If I were playing warband I, I think I could beat A handily. But strategy is part of the warband, and this strategy is exactly the worst choice against the opponent's warband.

3. C - This match is really close in my mind. Despite the advantage of the choke point on Drow Outpost, K does not have a sure thing win. The Archon will almost definitely shut down the Crow Shaman, thus leaving the FGFP dealing ~40 damage a turn (assuming both hit) to the Maralith. The maralith should average ~60 damage a turn (due to the HOP) and has a much higher chance of critting (due to number of attacks). The edge is with K, but not as much as it would seem. On Dragonshrine, I think the edge slides fully to C. The sacred circle will boost the attack bonus of the Marilith and suddenly flanking the giant becomes easy. This should increase the Maralith's average damage to 80 a turn. At this point, the giant just doesn't have the power to win.

4. N - Between the LFD and the OC, one of them should fail a morale save. Even though the Kobold Miner is likely to prevent the first turn fireball, Vlaakith's spell are still likely to have full effect reasonably often (except on the Maralith). With the beaters getting pulverized by spells, Tordek will almost definitely take out one. That in addition to the near sure thing flight of the board of another one leaves a one on one fight between an undamaged Vlaakith and a heavily damaged beater. Vlaakith should pull that out every time.

-SYB


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01/16/2007 9:54 AM  
1) G
2) I
3) K
4) N

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01/16/2007 12:19 PM  
1. P
The FGFP will likely crush one of P's two titans, but the other one will finish it off, and the rest of G's warband isn't tough enough to survive the subsequent mopping up. Mind Flayer may also get lucky.

2. A
We have three invisibled hitters versus a titan and a hitter with a Crow Shaman. While the three hitters should get an initial edge on damage, after that first strike I think the balance will shift to the titan + Duergar.

3. C
Warband C has two hitters to K's one. Even with the Justice Archon only doing 20 damage instead of 30 to the FGFP, it should be able to flank easily with flight and between it and the Marilith take out the FGFP.

4. N
E's hitters will all have trouble hitting Tordek, though some blows should make it through. But Vaaklith's spells should give N the edge.

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01/16/2007 1:27 PM  
So far, the last two are still really close:

1. P is ahead of G 15 to 6
2. A is ahead of I 17 to 4
3. K is ahead of C 11 to 10
4. E is ahead of N 11 to 10

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Wadsworth, OH

01/16/2007 5:57 PM  
Dave, I came up with some different numbers. Not sure if im missing something.

G: 6      P: 14
A: 16     I: 4
K: 12    C: 8
E: 10    N: 10

EDIT: On a non-related note, I wish I could respond to some of the statements voters have made about the bands. Granted, my band is still in there and I'm a tad biased towards it. I'm not sure voters are giving certain combos enough credit.

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01/16/2007 6:03 PM  
I'm glad you posted your results. Good thing we're not running it.

Someone else has to do the official count.

Dave

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01/16/2007 11:02 PM  
Nyc - In a sense you had a chance to respond to some of the statements when you filed your votes. The more you explain your position, the more you add to the "discussion". You certainly didn't just fill out letters, but you put very sparse explanations, so it is hard to understand exactly where you are coming from.

Also, nothing is really stopping you from rebutting a post, it just won't do any good. People are unlikely to change their votes. It is clear that some people vote on gut instinct alone, some vote on favorite pieces/combos, some vote on hard core mathematical analysis and seemingly some vote on a whim (I wonder how many voters pulled out trusty Mr. Washington?). Heck, I don't even think my votes are "right", I just think they are reasonable in the void of "diceless" matchups (when real dice are rolled, anything can happen -- and often does).

-SYB


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Wadsworth, OH

01/17/2007 6:16 AM  
I know at times my votes are swayed by reading what others have posted about their votes. It is certainly good to explain why you are voting the way you are. In a sense, the sooner one casts a vote, assuming that they take the time to write an explanation for why they voted the way they did, the more impact they have on the rest of the votes. Now, this assumes that once your votes are cast they cannot be changed. Is this the case? Do we have any rules for voting like that? Are people allowed to go back and change their votes or expand what they wrote before? Is it politically correct to argue with another person's vote once they have cast it? If you've noticed a mistake in your vote, or your description, are you allowed to change it? I know I edited my post to add some descriptions to it, but that was done minutes after I left my votes, so I didn't feel too bad about it. I was unable to finish my post, but I wanted to get my votes in. After reading other people's votes, and the discussion that has followed, I would probably change a few things. I, and possibly others, simply assumed that this vote was final once cast. I also disagree with some of the assessments that people have made about some of the matchups. But I simply assumed it was imoproper to call them out. I always worry about stepping on people's toes, since I can be overly opinionated at times, so i think these are all valid concerns. That being said, please let me know if I'm wrong about the politics of voting.

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01/17/2007 6:33 AM  
Maybe there should be a separate discussion thread. There have been a few comments about one of my previous warbands that I would have liked to rebuttle.

And if you CAN change your vote, ppl should know that as well. Just tell them they can't change it once the votes are being tallied.


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Vrecknidj
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01/17/2007 6:55 AM  
That's an interesting idea--a vote thread and a comments thread. I don't know if the WBC in general gets enough attention to merit it, but it could be worth trying to see.

Dave

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01/17/2007 1:13 PM  
Posted By Vrecknidj on 01/17/2007 6:55 AM
That's an interesting idea--a vote thread and a comments thread. I don't know if the WBC in general gets enough attention to merit it, but it could be worth trying to see.
With a total of 20 voters, no, I don't think the WBC gets enough attention for two separate threads.

Oh, and I agree with Nyc's count.

My two cents on the issues:
1) Nothing says your vote is cast in stone, and I don't think it should be that way.  You can change your vote, but I recommend adding a post to the end of the thread to mention that you changed your vote.  Otherwise, the running tallies will give false information that might screw up the final vote count, even though the running tallies are not "official".
2) Explanation of votes is good but not necessary.  Some folks will simply not vote if they have to take time to explain themselves, especially in the early rounds when there are a lot of matches to consider.  More votes is more fun, in the long run.
3) Rebuttal against votes and/or their explanations should be discouraged or handled with care.  Such discussions can degenerate into personal attacks.  I would suggest editing your own analysis to better explain your position without directly rebutting anyone else's analysis.

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Vrecknidj
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01/17/2007 1:21 PM  
Posted By Faragdar the Wise on 01/17/2007 1:13 PM

3) Rebuttal against votes and/or their explanations should be discouraged or handled with care.  Such discussions can degenerate into personal attacks.  I would suggest editing your own analysis to better explain your position without directly rebutting anyone else's analysis.
I agree.  Excellently put.

Dave


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My Trade Thread and My Reference Thread; Winner of WBC IV, IX and XIII; Rule #0: bshugg is always right!

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Myrtle Beach, SC

01/17/2007 8:10 PM  
Faragdar the Wise didn't get a moderator position for nothing. I total agree with everything he posted. Everyone is going to have opinions and reasons for them. All you can do is post your beliefs and maybe educate someone with your philosophy of voting enough to change their opinion. Telling someone they should believe you because their vote is wrong isn’t going to get people to jump ship often.

If this was a tournament or a serious competition we would at least play out the match ups. Remember it is for fun.

SO all and all keep the posts to your own opinions on the match ups, change your vote if you want and have a good time with it.

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nycfarmkid
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Wadsworth, OH

01/18/2007 8:48 AM  
FYI: After the discussions I've decided to change a couple of my votes. Please make note of that in the final tally. thanks!

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Autoxdsm
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Myrtle Beach, SC

01/19/2007 10:55 AM  
More Votes! This Rounds ends tonight!

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01/19/2007 11:46 AM  
How many times can I vote? I'm behind by 8, so probably 9 more times?


Greyhaze's DDM Spoilers
Champion of a Medium Dog & then a Darkenbeast , Raistlin Majere, Nightmare WDQ25/60, Warduke WD60/60,
Anti-Champion of Guns, "Knight of Bugbears", and Joke Champion of Venger.
Called Shots: Frost Giant in Dangerous Delves.

Vrecknidj
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01/19/2007 12:08 PM  
Posted By Autoxdsm on 01/19/2007 10:55 AM
More Votes! This Rounds ends tonight!
Oh, that's not good.Â

Let's give away some gold for every vote!



Dave


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My Trade Thread and My Reference Thread; Winner of WBC IV, IX and XIII; Rule #0: bshugg is always right!
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