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Vrecknidj
Warlord
10493 Posts
    
United States
 | | 01/28/2007 5:54 AM |
| How many times have you played against fearless figures thanks to Storm, and how much did your own Countersong help (or how much would it have helped)?
I usually play Bralanis and Swashbucklers with her, so I don't get the fearlessness benefit, but I'm wagering enough of you have played against Storm bands that utilize her commander effect that you'll have an opinion on this.
Dave
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Knowledge Arcana editor issues 5-9, Phoenix Lore Magazine editor, assistant editor for Rite Publishing;
My Trade Thread and My Reference Thread; Winner of WBC IV, IX and XIII; Rule #0: bshugg is always right! | |
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Sirohk
Commander
3938 Posts
USA
| | 01/28/2007 7:36 AM |
| Posted By Vrecknidj on 01/28/2007 5:54 AM
How many times have you played against fearless figures thanks to Storm, and how much did your own Countersong help (or how much would it have helped)?
I usually play Bralanis and Swashbucklers with her, so I don't get the fearlessness benefit, but I'm wagering enough of you have played against Storm bands that utilize her commander effect that you'll have an opinion on this.
Dave
I have played against Fearless Dragonkiths, Wand Experts, Valenar Nomad Chargers, Shadowdancers, etc... and it can be a real pain.Â
Especially if you managed to rout one and they run back by close enough to Storm and automatically make their rally attempt.Â
Also, Countersong nerfs Swarm - the Sacred Watchers damage bonus due to the Sword Archons CFX no longer woks near Storm.Â
So yes, Countersong could be a real advantage. Only if every warband had access to reasonably costed Countersong, such a s Devis for CG. An invisible unit with Countersong (ie an invisible Devis) could be a real pain if parked in the right place.Â
Of course another Storm warband already has Countersong.Â
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Sirohk, the Bard of Heartstone
Knight of the Rahshasa's
And Crusader of the Zakya, Ak'chazar, Naztharune, and Naityan Rakshasa's | |
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Low Key
Underboss
1231 Posts
| | 01/28/2007 7:42 AM |
| | Well, LG gets Standardbearer for 10 points CG gets Devis for 6, Satyr for 15 and CE gets Wardrummer for 19. (Wich you use 90% of the time anyways) So all the factions expect LE has access to a reasonably priced Countersong unit. Shame about LE, really. | |
Champion of the Sarrukh | |
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dmmandil
Sneak
142 Posts
| | 01/28/2007 8:29 AM |
| I had fun with a Storm warband that included the Standardbearer. I used a small group of elves with the Dragonkith as anchor, kept them under command with the Standardbearer who nerfed the enemies, too. Then I had the freedom to swing Storm away from my center of mass to have fun with my opponents backfield.
I think including countersong is a good precautionary plan since things like 4 fearless Wand Experts are not fun to encounter. Storm's fearless effect makes some otherwise weak minis much more sustainable. | |
Champion of the Warpriest of Laduguer | |
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Gunthar
Commander
2938 Posts
| | 01/28/2007 8:59 AM |
| Posted By dmmandil on 01/28/2007 8:29 AM
I had fun with a Storm warband that included the Standardbearer. I used a small group of elves with the Dragonkith as anchor, kept them under command with the Standardbearer who nerfed the enemies, too. Then I had the freedom to swing Storm away from my center of mass to have fun with my opponents backfield.
I think including countersong is a good precautionary plan since things like 4 fearless Wand Experts are not fun to encounter. Storm's fearless effect makes some otherwise weak minis much more sustainable.
How did you fit in Elminster as the Standardbearer can NOT be brought in to CG with Storm's Commander Effect? When under command, teh Standardbearer is a commander and therefore can not be subject to commander effects, also meaning he's not fearless even when around Storm if Elminster is in the band. | |
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| Knight of the
Round Table
Thenameless
Warlord
12507 Posts
The Fortress of Solitude
| | 01/28/2007 3:40 PM |
| | Storm Silverhand's commander effect has been a thorn in my side for the last two tournaments. This one guy keeps bringing Shadowdancer bands, and if I do make them run while they're not under command, by the time their routing is finished, Storm can see them so they automatically rally. I still don't want to pay for countersong, as I like to play fairly aggressive bands, but this is becoming a real pain in the rear. | |
Over 270 successful online DDM trades. | |
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greyhaze
Warlord
7718 Posts
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Nobody Important
Sergeant
718 Posts
| | 01/28/2007 8:52 PM |
| I'll second the request for Improved Countersong in LE. Does any other faction do such a good job punishing OoC figures?
While it is nice I don't think countersong specifically to negate Storm's Cdfx is needed. Several other command effects have been marked as "must stop" (the Couatl) but can still be played agaisnt. Storm may make some creatures fearless but running into fearless constructs is something we already need to worry about and although the certainty is nice many better creatures already make morale more often than not.
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nycfarmkid
Underboss
1210 Posts
Wadsworth, OH
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Faragdar the Wise
Commander
3547 Posts
Albuquerque, NM, USA
| | 01/29/2007 9:52 AM |
| Posted By Thenameless on 01/28/2007 3:40 PM
...if I do make them run while they're not under command, by the time their routing is finished, Storm can see them so they automatically rally.
It's more than that they have to be under command. They have to be within 6 to be under the commander effect. From reading your post, I wondered if you were giving Storm too much credit.
Oh, and for LE lovers out there, they do have a piece that can come in very, very handy here. If used properly the Mindflayer Telepath will absolutely devestate a Storm-led band (which, admittedly, is tough to do in a 200 point band). It means taking a risk, because for maximum effect with the psychic scream, you want to force as many morale checks in one round as possible, instead of focusing on and killing one opponent at a time. If you can pull that off, though, several of Storms most popular companions are relatively low level, so if they have to make morale while out of command, the majority will fail. Note, too, that a stunned commander can't put her followers under command. | |
"Before God we are all equally wise - and equally foolish." - Albert Einstein
Champion of Myopic Half-Orcs
Winner, WBC X | |
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nycfarmkid
Underboss
1210 Posts
Wadsworth, OH
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Ryoga
Underboss
1124 Posts
Coquimbo - Chile / Italia
| | 01/29/2007 1:04 PM |
| | I dont think that GAS is good chalenge for silver hand..... If you forgot Counter song can eliminate Young master Cfx, line Silver can destroy half of Hps of Gith and finally Silver Hand haves save 11......... few probabilities for stun her.... | |
Dealing with new life... new country and life without DDM :(
Some day I will be back in board | |
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warty_nosed_goblin
Underboss
1384 Posts
| | 01/29/2007 1:25 PM |
| Cept that they can deliver a stunning smack from 10 spaces away, making it fairly easy to stay out of silver fire lines.
As a counterexample, the fire giant forgepriest seems to be doing pretty well right now, and he's not backed up by countersong, just the ability to pound his opposition into the dirt so fast they leave scorch marks | |
Call me: W.N. Gobo!
originally posted by grim:
While he is clearly insane, he does have a point. | |
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Faragdar the Wise
Commander
3547 Posts
Albuquerque, NM, USA
| | 01/29/2007 1:27 PM |
| Posted By Ryoga on 01/29/2007 1:04 PM
If you forgot Counter song can eliminate Young master Cfx, line Silver can destroy half of Hps of Gith and finally Silver Hand haves save 11 I don't think anyone has forgotten that, but it doesn't mean she nerfs GAS. The monks have unavoidable strike, so their first shot will always hit for 20 magic and have a chance to stun (barring conceal that followers might grant Storm). Even with save 11, DC 18 is nothing to sneeze at. She only has about 1 chance in 4 of making 4 of those stun saves in a row. As far as the silver fire, maneuver your monks carefully and she should never get a shot at more than 2 of them. That amount of damage, GAS can live with.
I had mentioned stun to further extoll the virtues of the Mindflayer Telepath, but GAS was definitely worth bringing up. | |
"Before God we are all equally wise - and equally foolish." - Albert Einstein
Champion of Myopic Half-Orcs
Winner, WBC X | |
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Mortusbard
Sergeant
427 Posts
North Carolina
| | 01/29/2007 3:27 PM |
| TO GUNTHAR
Doesn't Storm Bring the Standard Bearer Herself ? He is not a commander before t he game starts and he is human.
Relay orders states that he gets the highest commander rating and EACH Effect of commanders that have him under command.
This wording by my understanding does not make him a commander but allows him to act as one.
He would then benefit from all commander effects as well as relay the effects to others within six sqaures.
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Unto Death We Strive,
From Birth unto the Dust, | |
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Tgt
Sergeant
574 Posts
| | 01/29/2007 3:35 PM |
| Posted By Mortusbard on 01/29/2007 3:27 PM
TO GUNTHAR
Doesn't Storm Bring the Standard Bearer Herself ? He is not a commander before t he game starts and he is human.
Relay orders states that he gets the highest commander rating and EACH Effect of commanders that have him under command.
This wording by my understanding does not make him a commander but allows him to act as one.
He would then benefit from all commander effects as well as relay the effects to others within six sqaures.
It´s considered a commander when it´s under command. So, when you use a CFX to bring it, you can´t because it´s considered a commander. | |
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| Knight of the
Round Table
Thenameless
Warlord
12507 Posts
The Fortress of Solitude
| | 01/29/2007 4:29 PM |
| Posted By Faragdar the Wise on 01/29/2007 9:52 AM Posted By Thenameless on 01/28/2007 3:40 PM
...if I do make them run while they're not under command, by the time their routing is finished, Storm can see them so they automatically rally.
It's more than that they have to be under command. They have to be within 6 to be under the commander effect. From reading your post, I wondered if you were giving Storm too much credit.
Oops. You're right Brian, I misspoke. I should have been more specific in saying that when I do make the Dancers run, usually Storm is still blasting away from the backlines, so it's sometimes just a matter of moving a couple of squares (sometimes not even) to get them within 6, in order to get them to auto-rally. | |
Over 270 successful online DDM trades. | |
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Faragdar the Wise
Commander
3547 Posts
Albuquerque, NM, USA
| | 01/29/2007 8:07 PM |
| Posted By Mortusbard on 01/29/2007 3:27 PM
TO GUNTHAR
Doesn't Storm Bring the Standard Bearer Herself ? He is not a commander before t he game starts and he is human.
I don't know about other folks, but I argued with Guy about this, to no avail. He has ruled that Elminster can bring in a Standard Bearer, but Storm cannot. That's just the way it is. | |
"Before God we are all equally wise - and equally foolish." - Albert Einstein
Champion of Myopic Half-Orcs
Winner, WBC X | |
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Sirohk
Commander
3938 Posts
USA
| | 01/30/2007 3:33 AM |
| Posted By Thenameless on 01/29/2007 4:29 PM Posted By Faragdar the Wise on 01/29/2007 9:52 AM Posted By Thenameless on 01/28/2007 3:40 PM
...if I do make them run while they're not under command, by the time their routing is finished, Storm can see them so they automatically rally.
It's more than that they have to be under command. They have to be within 6 to be under the commander effect. From reading your post, I wondered if you were giving Storm too much credit. Oops. You're right Brian, I misspoke. I should have been more specific in saying that when I do make the Dancers run, usually Storm is still blasting away from the backlines, so it's sometimes just a matter of moving a couple of squares (sometimes not even) to get them within 6, in order to get them to auto-rally.
I hate it and it drives me absolutely nuts when Storm auto-rallies routing followers.Â
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Sirohk, the Bard of Heartstone
Knight of the Rahshasa's
And Crusader of the Zakya, Ak'chazar, Naztharune, and Naityan Rakshasa's | |
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djtool
Sergeant
584 Posts
Crystal MN, USA
| | 01/30/2007 8:29 AM |
| I don't have a problem with storms Commander effect. Her subjects are typically low level and usually there's only 2 dragonkiths. Its not like storm warbands are beating people by outlasting them in a scrum, they win by using tricksy figures, ranged attacks, and forest terrrain.
Obviously countersong would help me but if I had a 'devis', 'standard bearer', or 'wardrummer' that'd just be going to far. What makes storm bands so difficult for me is the maps they play more then anything else.
If CG's saves remain consistent then I have no problem with making certain units fearless, as they will be susceptible to autodamage.
And there will never be an improved countersong unit in LE for the very reason that the faction has means to severly punish those not in command. | |
Champion of: Brain in a Jar | |
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nycfarmkid
Underboss
1210 Posts
Wadsworth, OH
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dmmandil
Sneak
142 Posts
| | 01/30/2007 9:25 AM |
| Gunthar-
Apparently I should not have. This would be yet another example of stupidity in the rules of this game. If the Standardbearer is considered a commander then the darn card should say so! Any card that is later "considered" something is vague and poorly thought out! Any rule or new card that creates ambiguity in older figures should be well thought out so the cards text in plain English leaves no room for misunderstanding. WOTC needs to hire text editiors with degrees in English.
Ambiguity only makes people angry.
Sometimes I despise the people who come up with the rules. AND I truly despise the fact this game has no complete, accurate, and authoritative rule book. It is ridiculous that we have to check four different sources AND still have to rely on RULINGS not widely referenceable to play legally. The Standardbearer is NOT referenced in either the FAQ or Guy's clarifications. So the only way I have to learn the correct rules of the game is during tournament play or in these forums. Makes it pretty discouraging when you plop a warband down at a tournament and are told, "Oh, you can't do that!" WE NEED A REAL RULEBOOK!!!! | |
Champion of the Warpriest of Laduguer | |
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dmmandil
Sneak
142 Posts
| | 01/30/2007 9:32 AM |
| | <----------------- Winning or losing does not make me feel like my pic. The rules of the game do! | |
Champion of the Warpriest of Laduguer | |
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roonechr
Sergeant
604 Posts
Kansas City, MO
| | 01/31/2007 3:09 PM |
| | The Standardbearer ruling seems odd at first but I believe it is coming from this statement in the rulebook: "Commanders are creatures that have a Commander rating". Because a Standardbearer under command has a Commander rating he is therefore a Commander. | |
Champion Of Hydras | |
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IanB
Commander
3112 Posts
| | 01/31/2007 4:11 PM |
| | I almost always included countersong whenever possible before Storm's popularity, but I would say there's nothing extra special about her commander effect that makes me want to use it.
The situations where I'm not going to be gunning for her before her allied elves/humans are rare anyway. | |
Anson on WotC boards | |
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IanB
Commander
3112 Posts
| | 01/31/2007 4:12 PM |
| Posted By nycfarmkid on 01/30/2007 8:39 AM
Also, bards are supposed to be Chaotic. I'm not sure how they managed the standardbearer figure. If you look at the RPG stats it is a Bard/Paladin multiclass. This figure was out before the books were published that had feats to let you do that.
But not before you were allowed to change your alignment. Bards don't lose any meaningful class features if they become lawful, just the ability to advance as a bard. | |
Anson on WotC boards | |
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nycfarmkid
Underboss
1210 Posts
Wadsworth, OH
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dmmandil
Sneak
142 Posts
| | 02/01/2007 5:45 AM |
| Yes, it is a paradox. I took the rules definition to mean that creatures with a commander rating ON the card were commanders. If the Standardbearer becomes out of command in a turn, it is no longer a commander. How many REAL commanders can suddenly go ZAP! and cease to be commanders? And if the fig gains command authority, then it must immediately lose that authority because it lacks the ability "Willing To Follow."
Even the wording of the special ability implies my interpretation, "Relay Orders." Battlefields all throughout history have soldiers who exist simply to pass along the orders of superiors. They do not originate the orders nor revise them. They have no authority to command nor make decisions. It is my understanding the Standardbearer mini was intended to fill that role in which case becoming a commander is a poor reflection. But, who ever said the game designers were striving for realism? I guess if they make a modern warfare game, the lowly private manning the radio suddenly would get to be a commander, too? | |
Champion of the Warpriest of Laduguer | |
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Vrecknidj
Warlord
10493 Posts
United States
| | 02/01/2007 7:33 PM |
| Posted By dmmandil on 02/01/2007 5:45 AM
Battlefields all throughout history have soldiers who exist simply to pass along the orders of superiors. They do not originate the orders nor revise them. They have no authority to command nor make decisions.
For a while, I was trying to make up a tournament format that required everyone to play two commanders. I was going to limit the choices of the commanders such that one was the main commander, one was the subordinate. The subordinate would gain Relay Orders.
The format would give bonus points for eliminating the opponent's commanders.
Never got off the ground.
Dave
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Knowledge Arcana editor issues 5-9, Phoenix Lore Magazine editor, assistant editor for Rite Publishing;
My Trade Thread and My Reference Thread; Winner of WBC IV, IX and XIII; Rule #0: bshugg is always right! | |
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JohnnyFive
Warrior
207 Posts
| | 02/02/2007 12:35 PM |
| Posted By Faragdar the Wise on 01/29/2007 1:27 PM Posted By Ryoga on 01/29/2007 1:04 PM
If you forgot Counter song can eliminate Young master Cfx, line Silver can destroy half of Hps of Gith and finally Silver Hand haves save 11 I don't think anyone has forgotten that, but it doesn't mean she nerfs GAS. The monks have unavoidable strike, so their first shot will always hit for 20 magic and have a chance to stun (barring conceal that followers might grant Storm). Even with save 11, DC 18 is nothing to sneeze at. She only has about 1 chance in 4 of making 4 of those stun saves in a row. As far as the silver fire, maneuver your monks carefully and she should never get a shot at more than 2 of them. That amount of damage, GAS can live with. I had mentioned stun to further extoll the virtues of the Mindflayer Telepath, but GAS was definitely worth bringing up.
I believe the effectiveness of GAS versus Storm depends largely on the type of build being used. If it's one featuring, say, a Gnome Trickster, then it become a significantly tougher battle for GAS, as Storm can move around the board more or less unimpeded, setting up a rather devestating line of Silver Fire. Against other builds, however, I'm sure GAS can hold its own well enough against Storm to where it becomes a question of skill, rather than of matchup.
As far as using the Telepath is concerned, it's a great idea, but I'm not sure how many people are going to be willing to include one in some of their LE builds, especially if it means giving up some other important piece, solely for a single matchup. Time will tell, though ... | |
Champion of the Elf Duskblade | |
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