More to Worry About Than the Power Creep... > maxminis.com- D&D minis, 4th edition D&D

Subject: More to Worry About Than the Power Creep...

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ShadowLord XT
Commander

2646 Posts

Plane of Shadow

01/29/2007 11:15 AM
There's also the effect creep. Don't believe me? look at the minis from Dragoneye and Harbinger. Then look at the minis now. More and more minis in each set have effects. I've collected cards before and the same thing happened there too. I collected Yu-Gi-Oh cards a while back and by now every card has an effect. D&D minis seem to be headed down that road as well.

Disipline is the only way to overcome chaos. Champion of Half-Golems Knight of Golems "This world is made for love and peace" - Trigun "anyway..shadow..you've figured women out. KUDOS." - raye_kino16

jacksonm
Warlord
Warlord

5560 Posts

River City

01/29/2007 11:24 AM
It's only a natural sign of the game growing. Even if the sculpts are different and of better quality players would quickly get bored of the same Level/AC/Speed/HP done over and over again. Sales would drop. DDM is a work in process, constantly changing. I think that's a good thing.

Low Key
Underboss

1231 Posts

01/29/2007 12:41 PM
Without cool new abilities the game would get boring pretty fast. If all the sets would look like Harbringer or Dragoneye after over 10 sets, I'd be more worried about the games future.

Champion of the Sarrukh

freedeath
Sneak
Sneak

93 Posts

Great White North

01/29/2007 1:06 PM
This has happened in just about every collectable game; eventually it becomes problematic, and the game designers start repeating similar game mechanics with different wrinkles, or it becomes too cumbersome and the game collapses under its own weight. Then they find a new way to package old ideas in a new game, and the cycle continues. Way of the world....

Life's a bowl of cultists.... _______________________________ Champion of the Scale-Creep Resistance ________________________ Champion of the Black Pudding

jgsugden
Commander

4320 Posts

Walnut Creek, CA

01/29/2007 1:50 PM
As far as I am concerned, neither effect creep or power creep are problems with DDM. Power creep isn't occuring. Instead, we're seeing the DDM folks being very careful to avoid 'upping' the curve. Power creep occurs when the 'best' older figures become outdated by the introduction of newer figures. When underpowered older figures are reinvisioned to create similar figures that have been tweaked to make thenm competitive, that is not power creep. The power level of the game isn't rising... we're just seeing a higher percentage of figures in each set approach the highest levels.� Take a look at the efficient (useful in a tier 1.5 or tier 1 band) Archfiends, Dragoneye and Harbinger pieces: Orc Champion, Eye of Gruumsh, Elf Pyromancer, Cleric of Order, Man-at-Arms, Jozan, Devis, Nebbin, Azer Raider, Human Blackguard, Mind Flayer, Cleric of Gruumsh, Drow Cleric of Lolth, Minotaur, Orc Warrior, Tiefling Captain, Umber Hulk, Human Commoner, Dwarven Defender, Purple Dragon Knight, Goblin Skirmisher, Cleric of Nerull, Hobgoblin Warrior, Thayan Knight, Hyena Urthok the Vicious, Abyssal Maw, Large Red Dragon, Ogre Ravager, Orc Druid, Red Samurai, Large Silver Dragon, Mialee, Evermeet Wizard, Graycloak Ranger, Moon Elf Fighter, Clay Golem, Gauth, Red Wizard, Snig the Axe, Cursed Spirit, and Githyanki Fighter. Some require very specializaed warbands to be effective, but these figures have all made an appearance in tournament caliber warbands in the SF Bay Area in the past year. Heck, 22 of the 63 figures in the top 8 warbands at the last nationals were in the above list... That despite many players not having easy access to older figures... When you can't come up with a competitive warband that uses figures like Orc Champions, Eyes of Gruumsh, Cursed Spirits, Ogre Ravagers, etc... well, then you can talk to me about power creep. But as the Ogre Ravager made 5 appearances in the top 8... Effect creep isn't a worry either. In fact, I think that not having 'effect creep' would be more of a problem. What we're discussing here is creatures having more abilities. Those extra abilities increase the variety in the game, which is a necessary step to keep the game interesting. Sure, you can have a few creatures in every set that are plain with a slight variance on the AC, AB, HP, Level, etc... of prior figures, but they will not be terribly interesting. I'd rather see every creature have some fun new ability, even if that ability is only useful in rare situations. The abilities give the figures personality, and personality adds to the enjoyment of the game.

Champion of Meepo __ Myztek on the Wizards Boards. __ (2206 DDM on 03/06/06) Please note: The use of the indicates an attempt at humor ... often a bad attempt. BAD EBAY SELLERS LIST (CLICK HERE): AVOID AT ALL COSTS

jacksonm
Warlord
Warlord

5560 Posts

River City

01/29/2007 2:00 PM
There was one power creep the focus being moved from 100 to 200 point games, so naturaly more higher costed figures were made. Not really a creep though, just a shift in the game's basic mechanic to allow for more variety. One good thing about the new effects is that it fights so called power creep. New abilities bring new synergies which suddenly make forgotten figures from older sets interesting play options. Now you never know what older mini will be dusted off to see play when the next set is released. That's a good thing.

yack
Commander

3321 Posts

Gatineau Canada

01/29/2007 2:02 PM
let it go with the power creep...doesn't effect me, don't use the cards at all just the manuals. Its the scale creep that bugs me...

Champion of the Peryton Vindicated Champion : Pit Fiend, Devourer DW: Duergar Priest RPG Only!!!! The Drumming Drunkn' DM

PDK
Sneak
Sneak

134 Posts

01/29/2007 2:07 PM
its impossible to deny theres not a power creep, but it is slow and acceptable. if the same band could still dominate the game for years then nobody would play any more and everyone would complain about the "broken"ness of that band. if you change things up so that new bands can have success, then people scream about the power creep.

Champion of Manshoon of the Zhentarim addict of orcs, ogres, and anything that smashes

jgsugden
Commander

4320 Posts

Walnut Creek, CA

01/29/2007 2:36 PM
Posted By PDK on 01/29/2007 2:07 PM its impossible to deny theres not a power creep, but it is slow and acceptable. if the same band could still dominate the game for years then nobody would play any more and everyone would complain about the "broken"ness of that band. if you change things up so that new bands can have success, then people scream about the power creep. As briefly discussed above, I ~~humbly~~ disagree. Let me expand. When discussing power creep, you need to define what is meant by the term. To do this, you probably want to begin by asking yourself 'In what context will I be discussing power creep?' In my experience, power creep is typically discussed in a rather vague context. People toss it out there without underastanding exactly how it fits into a discussion. To some people, it refers to the power level of a hypothetical 'average' figure in a set. To others, it refers to the utility of the top tier pieces in a set. Yet, to others, it refers to the competitive capability of warbands built in the past when compared to the current meta. Each of these concepts is dramatically different, and we must narrow the concept and context before we can discuss power creep meaningfully. One school of thought would say that we should figure out the most useful context for the term before deciding on which is the best definition to use. To me, the most useful context for discussing power creep is this: Are older figures still useful in the modern meta environment? Why is that the best context for discussing power creep? Because I feel that it is very important that older figures remain usefull, but I don't consider it important that they remain usefull in exactly the same fashion and configuration. Thus, I place an emphasis on the older figures being useful compared to the older warbands/configurations of figures. In that context, the question of power creep is most useful when we use the term to describe the loss of utility of older competitive figures because of the introduction of more powerful figures for a similar cost in recent expansions.� As discussed above, many older figures are still viable in the current metaenvironment. Although some of the warbands of yore are no longer competitive, many of the figures that made up those warbands can be combined with new figures to make competitive units. Take, for example, the Orc Champion and Eye of Gruumsh. Once upon a time, 2X Orc Champion and 2 X Eye of Gruumsh was the foundation for a very competitive warband. In the modern environment, that warband would not be nearly as dominant as it once was... but if played well, it could still compete. However, if you take the 2 Orc Champions and place them with a HGB, OWD, Drow Sergeant and 3 Orc Warriors - the warband suddenyl becomes more competitive. Similarly, there were 3 warbands in the top 8 National Championship warbands that used Ogre Ravagers and Orc Warriors with an entirely new pair of pieces: OWD and Firebelcher. Old figures are still useful. Their utility expands and contracts as their synergy with certain abilities and vulnerabilities to others are brought to light through the introduction of new figures. However, as most of the competitive warbands I build involve multiple figures from older expansions, I have significant trouble embracing the idea that power creep, as defined above, is a significant problem with DDM. Edit... wait a second: Impossible to deny that there is not a power creep... Isn't that impossible to agree that there is power creep?

Champion of Meepo __ Myztek on the Wizards Boards. __ (2206 DDM on 03/06/06) Please note: The use of the indicates an attempt at humor ... often a bad attempt. BAD EBAY SELLERS LIST (CLICK HERE): AVOID AT ALL COSTS

Sirohk
Commander

3938 Posts

USA

01/29/2007 2:56 PM
Power creep was inevitable.� As more abilites and better minis come out, power was bound to creep upwards for the bettermint of the game. Otherwise it would get quite boring.� IMO WotC has done a beter and btter job of costing figures and power.�

Sirohk, the Bard of Heartstone Knight of the Rahshasa's And Crusader of the Zakya, Ak'chazar, Naztharune, and Naityan Rakshasa's

Mortusbard
Sergeant

427 Posts

North Carolina

01/29/2007 3:29 PM
Power creep will happen. It is the nature of the beast. I personally think that they are doing a good job of it. As for the ability creep that again is a mechanic that will happen. Remeber the days of 1st edition anyone and compare to the versions that we are playing now. D&D IS ABOUT POWER CREEP. More options though doesn't make it a bad thing. As long as nothing is unbeatable.

Unto Death We Strive, From Birth unto the Dust,

Knight of Argenis
Corim Danex
Warlord
Warlord

6842 Posts

West Valley City, Utah

01/29/2007 3:42 PM
Posted By yack on 01/29/2007 2:02 PM ... Its the scale creep that bugs me... I would insert an applauding smiley here if I knew how. Scale creep bugs me quite a bit.

"Look to God and live." Alma 37:47 Vindicated Champ of Hippogriff (Arcadian Hippogriff) and Uncommon Horse

Harneloot
Sergeant

575 Posts

01/29/2007 5:58 PM
Me too - and that one has nothing to do with "keeping the game interesting"!!!

"What is to give light must endure burning" -Viktor Frankl Champion of the Large Myconid Deacon of the ANY aligned Raistlin.

Zyla
Underboss

1201 Posts

01/29/2007 6:08 PM
When you want to talk about "power creep" you have to compared the figures from Deathknell to Blood War, all sets previous to Deathknell are designed for 100pt play, everything DK and up is 200pt play.

gss_000
Commander

3204 Posts

Baltimore, MD

01/29/2007 6:24 PM
When you want to talk about "power creep" you have to compared the figures from Deathknell to Blood War And when you do compare them? From this and other threads it sounds like there hasn't been much. Is this true?

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PDK
Sneak
Sneak

134 Posts

01/29/2007 6:33 PM
Posted By jgsugden on 01/29/2007 2:36 PM Edit... wait a second: Impossible to deny that there is not a power creep... Isn't that impossible to agree that there is power creep? I entirely disagree with what you are saying, if there was no power creep then the pieces you listed , which were the best available at the time, would still be the best available. now, it is obvious that they are doing the best they can to make older pieces still playable as long as they can be, but beside a select few, they are mostly unplayable now. there are a few shining stars that will never go away, but I do not think that because 1 or 2 or 3 out of 60 figures are still playable only a year later is reason for saying there is no power creep. i think thats more of reason for saying they intentionally try their best to balance out the set, while taking a select few making these pieces just a little better or cheaper as to stand out from the rest of the figures. within a set or two, the majority of the balanced figures will be weeded out of play, which is actually better to attract newer players without them fearing they wont have older pieces, while the exceptional figures from the older sets will be on par of the power level of the currently newest sets. eventually even those pieces will go from great to good to still competative, and thats where they may always stay, or their may be a new piece that comes along similarly priced with better abilities that makes even the best pieces undesireable. of course, this entire argument doesnt take into acount the abilities of newer figures to increase the usefulness of older figures and bring them back up to par

Champion of Manshoon of the Zhentarim addict of orcs, ogres, and anything that smashes

Harneloot
Sergeant

575 Posts

01/29/2007 7:37 PM
I don't play skirmish, so i don't know....but don't they sometimes make new minis with abilities that make older minis suddently good/powerful/useful again?

"What is to give light must endure burning" -Viktor Frankl Champion of the Large Myconid Deacon of the ANY aligned Raistlin.

Bert the Troll
Commander

3964 Posts

Adelaide

01/29/2007 8:03 PM
Posted By Harneloot on 01/29/2007 7:37 PM I don't play skirmish, so i don't know....but don't they sometimes make new minis with abilities that make older minis suddently good/powerful/useful again? They sure do! ~ It's only very recently that my coloured cards have outnumbered by B&W's on the table. And there are now a lot more coloured cards. Without a doubt some things have 'powered creeped' or 'updated' depending on definition. The obvious example being the hill giant vs hill giant barbarian that Shoe makes mention of in the last preview. Or you could equally say they are better costed. T1/T2 bands with dragons would be great, and could be viewed as better costed dragons or dragons that have 'power crept' along. Personally I'm glad if things are more what I would define as better costed and more variety of critters used. ~ I agree more with the stated 'ability creep', as comparing harbinger there are a few creatures that have no abilities or spells, compared with blood war that everything either has an ability or spells. (Wardrums is the most recent set that features a mini without any special ability or spell). I do like it though, I enjoy things having special abilities or drawbacks, the more the better as it creates more variety. I don't think the scale of them (powerwise) is that much more significant. ~ btw this thread will probably soon creep into skirmish forum

"Mutton yesterday, mutton today, and blimey, if it don't look like mutton again tomorrer." Bert the Troll - The Hobbit Semi-Secret sig business: "In the age of the internet attaching a famous name to your personal opinion to give more weight to it is a very valid strategy." - Benjamin Franklin Champion of Epic ~~Lolth~~, Orcus, & Demogorgon and bring us Asmodeus!

jgsugden
Commander

4320 Posts

Walnut Creek, CA

01/29/2007 9:15 PM
Goodie. You didn't read my discussion on definitions of power creep, yet you're telling me I'm wrong. I entirely disagree with what you are saying, if there was no power creep then the pieces you listed , which were the best available at the time, would still be the best available. The best of before has to remain the best in the future to avoid power creep? So - equally useful pieces would be evidence of power creep? Equal is more? Weird math, partner. now, it is obvious that they are doing the best they can to make older pieces still playable as long as they can be, but beside a select few, they are mostly unplayable now. News flash: Most of them were unplayable at the time they were released. A Large Fire Elemental was always a bad play. there are a few shining stars that will never go away, but I do not think that because 1 or 2 or 3 out of 60 figures are still playable only a year later is reason for saying there is no power creep. There were far more inferior pieces in older sets. The fact that those bad pieces exist has nothing to do with power creep. In the days of Harbinger, Dragoneye and Archfiends, there were only a few competitive pieces. Those pieces, for the most part, are still competitive today. We see less of them because there are a lot of players that don't own them... but they are still competitive. i think thats more of reason for saying they intentionally try their best to balance out the set, while taking a select few making these pieces just a little better or cheaper as to stand out from the rest of the figures. Almost. What they do is this: They are very conservative when designing something 'new'. They overprice it intentionally so that - if the piece/ability - turns out to be more effective than anticipated, it will not flood out the game. Then, once they've had enough time to fine tune the ability and can cost it correctly, they bring the cost down in a subsequent similar figure. Look at the old 'Titans' - the Aspects, etc... - and the new Titans. within a set or two, the majority of the balanced figures will be weeded out of play, which is actually better to attract newer players without them fearing they wont have older pieces, while the exceptional figures from the older sets will be on par of the power level of the currently newest sets. If that were true, the power creep would be cumulative - meaning that even the most powerful of the figures from the first few expansions would be completely overpowered now. That is obviously untrue. eventually even those pieces will go from great to good to still competative, and thats where they may always stay, or their may be a new piece that comes along similarly priced with better abilities that makes even the best pieces undesireable. My point exactly - I am glad you agree. Of course, as the Orc Champion, Eye of Gruumsh, Orc Warrior, Ogre Ravager, etc... are still top competitive pieces, you are clearly in error. of course, this entire argument doesnt take into acount the abilities of newer figures to increase the usefulness of older figures and bring them back up to par That is a fine point, but there are few figures that have truly been 'raised' from medicority by the addition of new figures. The Young Master is the best example, but it is awfully hard to find others that received a bump from 'useless' to 'competitive'. There were bad older figures. As long as we see dozens of competitive figures from sets that are more than 2 years old making appearances in Constructed Championship bands - no power creep.

Champion of Meepo __ Myztek on the Wizards Boards. __ (2206 DDM on 03/06/06) Please note: The use of the indicates an attempt at humor ... often a bad attempt. BAD EBAY SELLERS LIST (CLICK HERE): AVOID AT ALL COSTS

PDK
Sneak
Sneak

134 Posts

01/30/2007 2:53 AM
conservative when desinging something new? 27 pts for invisibility sphere is conservative? 28 pts for two shadow jumps and a defensive roll ( combined with +13 for 10 and most likely +15 for 20 damage) is conservative? � i think you are missing the point, or i think you just must not play competatively enough to realize that very few pieces from the olden days are still the best choice for what they do. some commanders and spell casters are still the best, because you cant find what they offer in any other piece. but, thats about it. and, ill say again, hopefully maybe you might get it this time. if something used to dominate the game but now has to be played well in order to have a chance, yes , that is a power creep, and i dont care as much as your a lover of DDM and want to deny that theres a power creep its right there in front of your face with your own examples. orc champ x 2 + eye of gruumsh x 2 used to kill everything, now most of the time it gets killed, hell vs a couple bralani and you might not even bother to play the match. i dont see where theres a possiblitly to deny this, its not disaterous but its there

Champion of Manshoon of the Zhentarim addict of orcs, ogres, and anything that smashes

Vrecknidj
Warlord
Warlord

10493 Posts

United States

01/30/2007 5:24 AM
Way back, I sat down and looked at the speed, level, attack bonuses, etc. of all the figures and grouped them by set and faction. I then compared each one over time. And, while the average of the figures is improving, back then, it was improving at a glacial speed. (I haven't performed this check in more than 4 sets, so I have no idea if the trend continues.) But, what I noticed was that I was making irrelevant comparisons. It doesn't matter what the average figure's stats are. What matters are the stats of the figures that see frequent play. And, I didn't feel like trying to put together that bit of data. Dave

Knowledge Arcana editor issues 5-9, Phoenix Lore Magazine editor, assistant editor for Rite Publishing; My Trade Thread and My Reference Thread; Winner of WBC IV, IX and XIII; Rule #0: bshugg is always right!

Duke of Spoils
greyhaze
Warlord
Warlord

7720 Posts

01/30/2007 7:07 AM
Posted By Corim Danex on 01/29/2007 3:42 PM Scale creep bugs me quite a bit. Me too. This is something that I am more concerned about. And I agree with PDK's analysis of power creep (to stay on topic). Those minis that were at the top of the game, are still around, but there are very few and they were the same figures that were "broken" when they came out. As far as I am concerned with powercreep, it has been gradual enough to at least appear balanced. The Elf Warmage is a great example, a figure with her kind of damage output in earlier sets would've been 1/4 of your warband, now, not so much.

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gss_000
Commander

3204 Posts

Baltimore, MD

01/30/2007 8:35 AM
orc champ x 2 + eye of gruumsh x 2 used to kill everything, now most of the time it gets killed, hell vs a couple bralani and you might not even bother to play the match. Question: Is this a result of the combination being good at the time and only less good due to the expanded options more figures give or they are just less powerful to equivalent figures of future sets? The former is probably "effect creep" or even just natural when you have a limited number of figures at the time and the latter is true power creep.

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Foo Fighter
Warrior
Warrior

188 Posts

01/30/2007 10:11 AM
Might a better metaphor be "power ebb and flow"? I think "power creep" suggests a linear stacking up power levels, where one power levels is superceded by another power level, in an ever increasing rise. Someone pointed out the increase in the number of effects. There are more effects now. It seems "effects creep" causes new synergies that change power levels. An existing piece that is now more powerful due to a new synergy with a NEW mini may acts to negate the power (or effectiveness) of another existing piece, therefore causing some shift in power but not neccesarily a linear increase overall. So I think that each new set cause changes in the power of individual pieces, but I think that the effects or synergies also LESSEN the power or effectivness of some mini's giving you an overall occilation but not neccesarily an INCREASE or POWER CREEP. ~Foo Fighter~

A Repo man is ALWAYS intense.

jgsugden
Commander

4320 Posts

Walnut Creek, CA

01/30/2007 1:19 PM
Posted By PDK on 01/30/2007 2:53 AM conservative when desinging something new? 27 pts for invisibility sphere is conservative? 28 pts for two shadow jumps and a defensive roll ( combined with +13 for 10 and most likely +15 for 20 damage) is conservative? Neither of these abilities are new. They are variations on things that were experimentally introduced in earlier expansions. Invisibiliy was present on the Night Hag. Shadow Jump is very similar to the Archmage's swift dimension door. i think you are missing the point, or i think you just must not play competatively enough to realize that very few pieces from the olden days are still the best choice for what they do. some commanders and spell casters are still the best, because you cant find what they offer in any other piece. but, thats about it. I'm sorry, did you miss my references to the ogre ravagers, orc warriors, human commoners, man-at-arms, etc... in the national championship warbands?� and, ill say again, hopefully maybe you might get it this time. if something used to dominate the game but now has to be played well in order to have a chance, yes , that is a power creep, Seriously - that is a matter of definition. And, in the definition that makes the most sense for this type of discussion - NO, that is not power creep. That is the rest of the playing field coming up to balance with the top - not the top creeping up even higher. If the best older figures can compete (when played well) with newer 'good' figures, then the 'top' of the power curve has not moved up... we just have more choices. and i dont care as much as your a lover of DDM and want to deny that theres a power creep its right there in front of your face with your own examples. orc champ x 2 + eye of gruumsh x 2 used to kill everything, now most of the time it gets killed, hell vs a couple bralani and you might not even bother to play the match. i dont see where theres a possiblitly to deny this, its not disaterous but its there Have you played this match? Try the following band against a Storm + Bralani on Hellspike: Eye of Gruumsh X2 (88 - 2) Orc Champion X2 (78 - 164 - 4) Orc War drummer (19 - 185 - 5) Orc Brute (8 - 193 - 6) Hyena (4 - 197 - 7) Orc Warrior (3 - 200 - If both sides are played well, the advantage for Bralani is not as significant as you would expect.� Regardless, that is not my point. The question is: Are the old (power) figures still useful. Regardless of what you say, there was a very healthy presence of old dominant figures in the championship last year. That proves my point. 1.) The older bad figures are still bad. 2.) The older good figures can still be used competitively, if placed in new warbands. That is all that matters. That, and the proper use of punctuation.

Champion of Meepo __ Myztek on the Wizards Boards. __ (2206 DDM on 03/06/06) Please note: The use of the indicates an attempt at humor ... often a bad attempt. BAD EBAY SELLERS LIST (CLICK HERE): AVOID AT ALL COSTS

IanB
Commander

3112 Posts

01/30/2007 2:20 PM
Bringing all the factions up to the level of the dominant early CE pieces is not power creep. Releasing the 35 point Orc Super Champion with all the same stats as the Orc Champion but 10 more hit points, that would be power creep. Here's the thing - you will have a very hard time finding pieces from the early sets that were actually any good that have been made unplayable. Most of the pieces that have been "obsoleted" from early sets have been replaced because they were too far behind the standard set by the ogre ravager et al. Replacing those pieces with competitive ones isn't power creep, it is game balance.

Anson on WotC boards

Lord_rock
Underboss

2045 Posts

Portland OR

01/30/2007 4:52 PM
Back about archfiends I was a huge voice against the increasing creep... I hated it... I still don't like it... The differance is now there is a balance. Each faction and each set has a piece that shines more that the rest of the set... each usually has one that counters a previous shiner of an older set... and the # of figs that are skirmish viable is up... the number of figs that are so so so close to skirmish viable is way up... and almost every set there is a piece that makes an older "close" piece worthwhile... I don't like the increasing dmg and HP ratios... Thats my biggest concern. overall creep hasnt been that bad but dmg and Hp are way way up. too many things started hitting for 25 and up so they boosted hp... then since they boosted hp everything had to hit for more dmg... see the cycle... they've slowed it but its still there... I'm okay with the last 3 sets balance now... before the last three sets I was very worried. These sets are the NEW BASE SETS that figures are being balanced against and for. Sure older pieces don't look as good as they used to, but I'm glad they fixed some ratios in the game to make the game better rather than it being the same old same old... Human blackgaurd is still around... man at arms... human commoner... orc champ... eye of grumish... tiefling captain... orc warrior... ogre ravager... the list goes on... many older figs still are worthwhile. I would like to see more minions options for some of the older fodder... or summoning... i wish they would get summoning right for once. Effect creep has been awesome so far... kept us all on our toes and really kept the game balance. I would like a few "bland" figs every now and then though. things are okay right now... its about has creeped as it needs to get for some time though....

Rock Bottom Pricing: Arcane Archer 30, Centaur Hero 67, Human Cleric of Bane 25, Gold Champion 34, Death Knight 52, Goblin Blackblade 9, Silentwolf Goblin 7, Orc Raider 10, Dwarf axefighter 9, Healer 9, Thaskor 65, Aspect of Demogorgon 71, Ogre 9, Fire Giant 79, Human Wanderer 7, Drunken Master 18, Barghest 12, Longstider Barbarian 27, Longtooth Barbarian 22, Frost Giant 76, Ravenous Vampire 42, Large Earth Elemental: priceless

IanB
Commander

3112 Posts

01/30/2007 5:32 PM
What huge growth in HP and damage are you talking about? Remember, miniatures have one more important stat - cost. But everyone seems to ignore that one when they're constructing this whole power creep argument. The Orc Champion, Eye of Gruumsh, and Ogre Ravager all have better than 2:1 HP:cost ratios. This is not true of most (any?) of the newer pieces that have, over the years, caused the "power creep" uproar. Duergar champion? Less than 2:1. Frenzied berserker? Less than 2:1. Hill giant barbarian? Less than 2:1.

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jgsugden
Commander

4320 Posts

Walnut Creek, CA

02/01/2007 3:17 PM
Posted By IanB on 01/30/2007 5:32 PM What huge growth in HP and damage are you talking about? Remember, miniatures have one more important stat - cost. But everyone seems to ignore that one when they're constructing this whole power creep argument... An incidental observation about HP/Cost ratios: They tend to lose sight of the fact that a creature (often) loses hps in fixed amounts. As such, they may actually gain no benefit from having a few more hit points. Let's say that we have a 75 hp enemy. He is being attacked by a creature that deals 15 damage. 3 hits forces a morale check, 5 hits kills. If the attacker does 20 damage, 2 hits forces a morale, and 4 kill. Against a guy dealing 25 or 30 damage, 2 hits force morale, 3 kills.� Let's drop those hp down to 65 and do the same analysis. When attacking for 15, 3 hits force morale, and 5 kill. If the attacker does 20, 2 hits force morale, and 4 kill. If the attacker does 25 or 30: 2 hits forces morale, and 3 kills. No difference. The extra hit points in these situations are meaningless. Note that most of the important melee pieces in DDM deal between 15 and 30 damage. If the piece costs 37 points, it 'looks' pretty fair (~2 hp : 1 cost) at 75 hps. It 'looks' a little weaker at 65 hps (~1.75 hp : 1 cost). However, against a foe dealing consistent damage, the difference is meaningless. However, if we begin to factor in differing amounts of damage flowing into a creature, this analysis falls apart. If you alternate the strikes above with 5 damage strikes (hit for 15, hit for 5, hit for 15, hit for 5, etc...), the number of hits necessary to morale or kill a foe become drastically different. In the old days, this tended to be less of an issue, because top warbands typically used multiple similar beaters (3 Orc Champions, 3 Frenzied Beserkers, 2 Hill Giant Barbarians, etc...) However, I see a definite trend in DDM in the costing of pieces, the synergies created by using different pieces, etc... that tend to result in different combinations of figures. I also see a trend towards adding abilities that alter the 'damage flow' flowing out of a particular creature - The Gith Monk's unerring strike results in a 20 damage strike instead of the normal 10, the various smite abilities, the new haste ability of the Thrall effectively allowing a single 40 damage strike, special abilities (like the Chraal's or Bralani's) that deal damage different the amount granted by an attack, etc... - that result in this type of variability being more common, which, in turn, gives greater value to the additional hit points.� This phenomena was the reason that the 65 hit point plateau was so important at one point - your creature could not be routed in one hit for 30 or less damage, and could not be killed in 2 hits of 30 or less. Adding 5 or 10 extra hit points had no real effect. The slow evolution towarsd variable damage has reduced the importance of the 65 hit point threshold, and has pushed us towards a better balanced hit point/cost utility curve.� Anyways, that was my side point... back to the matter at hand...

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Forums > Dungeons & Dragons Miniatures > D&D Minis 2.0 Skirmish Discussion > More to Worry About Than the Power Creep...

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