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Phantom77
Skirmisher
12 Posts
    
 | | 01/31/2007 6:07 AM |
| So, not sure why but I have become determined to make the Beholder work in 200pts...
I just can't seem to come up with something I REALLY like. Here is my latest attempt:
Beholder
Urthok
Snig, Worg Rider
 Acheron Goblin
 Decanter Goblin
Acheron Goblin
Acheron Goblin
Acheron Goblin
Terror Wight
Frostfell Rift
What have you all tried that has has some success? | | | |
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tundrin
Sergeant
413 Posts
Randolph, NJ
| | 01/31/2007 6:22 AM |
| I faced a Beholder, Dual Helmed Horror band. It was pretty tough - have to get though the HH's to get to the beholder and they arent gotten around easily.
(I won by a couple points using a CoDA led LG band back pre WotDQ days) | |
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Autoxdsm
Sergeant
814 Posts
Myrtle Beach, SC
| | 01/31/2007 6:47 AM |
| Dark Naga 41
Beholder 83
Duergar Champion 33
Duergar Champion 33
Goblin Skirmisher 3
Goblin Skirmisher 3
Goblin Skirmisher 3
199/8 activations
I saw a guy playing this at a local tourny. Not sure how he did but it looks ok to me. I would love to fit Snig the Axe in here but you would have to drop a DC or the Naga. | |
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Vrecknidj
Warlord
10358 Posts
United States
| | 01/31/2007 7:14 AM |
| It is very hard to get the Beholder to be successful at a tournament. The Beholder can win individual games, and, it can be a fantastic spoiler piece because on a failed save, it can beat just about any living enemy.
But, that's the problem. Let's say you're playing in a tournament with 5 games. The odds are prety good that in a couple of those games you'll face constructs or undead. This severely reduces the Beholder's effectiveness--without very lucky rolls, you aren't doing much.
Against living bands, you have a little more flexibility, but, still, without some lucky rolls, you're not doing all that much. Furthermore, those lucky rolls have to coincide with lucky timing--that is, you have to have a juicy target when the excellent roll finally comes up. Disintegrating an Orc Warrior is kinda disappointing.
And, finally, some bands (like GAS) can do so much damage so quickly, that the Beholder routs or dies without having had time to get several eye rays to work. And that's the Beholder's biggest weakness, I think. It depends upon good rolls more than many other pieces do. The Firegiant Forgepriest doesn't need a lot of 19s and 20s to be successful, he hits a lot of things with a 5. The Beholder needs good rolls, and those good rolls have to be timed well, and the opponent needs to have bad rolls on saves that coincide with your good rolls.
That's way too much variability for most players of many-match torunaments, and so we don't see many Beholder bands making it into the top 8.
However, we do sometimes see Beholder bands preventing other bands from making it into the top 8. So, if you're looking to play a spoiler band, it very well may be a rational choice. Especially if you're anticipating a lot of spellcasters.
Dave | |
Knowledge Arcana editor issues 5-9, Phoenix Lore Magazine editor, assistant editor for Rite Publishing;
My Trade Thread and My Reference Thread; Winner of WBC IV, IX and XIII; Rule #0: bshugg is always right! | |
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Vrecknidj
Warlord
10358 Posts
United States
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Faragdar the Wise
Commander
3490 Posts
Albuquerque, NM, USA
| | 01/31/2007 9:49 AM |
| 41 Dark Naga
41 Maug
83 Beholder
20 Snig + sniglets
07 Acheron Goblin
03 Goblin Skirmisher
05 Timber Wolf
I wish there was a cheaper source of magic weapon for LE. Since there isn't, I'm leaving it out in this build. Instead, activation control and blockage are the themes of this band. I'm not sure the Maug is a better choice than the Helmed Horror--I'm trading a fodder-plinking ranged attack for a large-based blocker--but I think it's worth playing around with. I'm also not sure that Urthok wouldn't be a better commander than the Dark Naga. The attack bonus for the goblin blockers and better commander rating might be better than the DC boost for the Beholder's eye rays (not to mention that the points saved can upgrade a skirmisher to an Acheron Goblin).
Of course, I've often had fun with an old spoiler:
166 Beholder x2
20 Snig + sniglets
09 Goblin Skirmisher x3
05 Timber Wolf
It loses a lot, but I have a lot of fun with it, and it's awfully dang intimidating when it first gets set on the table. I love the nail-biting that comes with all those eye ray rolls. | |
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Longbow
Warrior
236 Posts
| | 01/31/2007 12:44 PM |
| Beholder 83
Helmed Horror 45
Maug 41
Half-Orc Fighter 21
Duergar Warrior 4
2 x Kobold Miner 6
Drow outpost or the one from frostfell with lots of pits. Beholder + pits: fun. | |
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Vrecknidj
Warlord
10358 Posts
United States
| | 01/31/2007 12:55 PM |
| Beholder
Spectre x2
Half-Orc Fighter
Warrior Skeleton
Timber Wolf
There are 7 activations, thanks to the Beholder. The Spectres can heal themselves with their attack against living targets, and the Beholder can heal them with its negative eye ray (which doesn't have to roll against Incorporeal, according to the Clarifications, since it isn't damage).
I normally don't like Spectres, but, what the heck.
Dave | |
Knowledge Arcana editor issues 5-9, Phoenix Lore Magazine editor, assistant editor for Rite Publishing;
My Trade Thread and My Reference Thread; Winner of WBC IV, IX and XIII; Rule #0: bshugg is always right! | |
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roonechr
Sergeant
604 Posts
Kansas City, MO
| | 01/31/2007 3:38 PM |
| Would a legitimate LE undead beater improve the viability of the Beholder in 200 point? For example, if the Maug were undead would the Beholders ability to heal it be enough to get past the bad matchups?
Say,
Beholder 83
Undead Maug 41
Undead Maug 41
Greenspawn Sneak 6
Kobold Sorcerer 20
Kobold Warrior 3
Kobold Warrior 3
Kobold Warrior 3
8 activations, 200 points.
The Kobold Sorcerer can magic weapon the Maugs and conceal 6 on the warriors mean that they may actually survive an attack, or you could use Snig if you like for activation control.
Hopefully the Sneak can keep you in victory points so the Maugs and Beholder can setup at their leisure.
Of course, based on the leaks so far LE is not getting a any such undead beater.
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Bert the Troll
Commander
3898 Posts
Adelaide
| | 01/31/2007 6:59 PM |
| A decent undead beater/blocker for LE would make the difference.
My variation:
Beholder(83),
Dark Naga(41),
Duergar Champion(33),
Half-Elf Hexblade(33),
Duergar Warrior(4),
Kobold Miner (3),
Warrior Skeleton (3).
Hexblade 'cause beholder band needs more tech :/
Stinkies also an option to help lower saves.. maybe...
Beholder(83),
Troglodyte Captain(53),
Duergar Champion(33),
Troglodyte Thug(11),
Troglodyte Thug(11),
Kobold Miner(3),
Warrior Skeleton(3),
Warrior Skeleton(3). | |
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dmmandil
Sneak
142 Posts
| | 02/01/2007 6:05 AM |
| Lots of interesting bands listed here. I personally prefer something that includes Snig and crew plus a pair of Large Duergars, but fundamentally, the Dark Naga is essential. That DC boost is irreplaceable, IMO.
What I think makes the beholder more interesting today is Frostfell Rift. This map is loaded with pits. The beholder suddenly becomes more a threat when even it's telekinesis becomes routinely lethal. But even so, it's tough to win consistently. Especially since you are relying on map and winning map initiative with a Dark Naga is a coin toss. | |
Champion of the Warpriest of Laduguer | |
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Vrecknidj
Warlord
10358 Posts
United States
| | 02/01/2007 6:08 AM |
| Are there enough bands that are becoming reliant on mid-game spells that the Beholder's anti-magic is enough of a threat that it might be elevated to tier 2?
Dave | |
Knowledge Arcana editor issues 5-9, Phoenix Lore Magazine editor, assistant editor for Rite Publishing;
My Trade Thread and My Reference Thread; Winner of WBC IV, IX and XIII; Rule #0: bshugg is always right! | |
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Faragdar the Wise
Commander
3490 Posts
Albuquerque, NM, USA
| | 02/01/2007 9:31 AM |
| Posted By dmmandil on 02/01/2007 6:05 AM
...but fundamentally, the Dark Naga is essential. That DC boost is irreplaceable, IMO.
I don't think it is, actually. I find myself most often using the inflict eye ray, either because of rolls, because of available targets, or because forcing a morale save or a flesh-to-stone save is too chancy against a target with a high save (because you've essentially wasted an activation if the target makes his save). When I use the inflict eye ray, I'm assuming it'll do 10 damage. If the target fails the save and takes 20, instead, that's just gravy. Same with disintegrate, when I'm lucky enough to get it. I assume 30 damage and do a happy dance if I get 60 instead.
So, while the Naga's DC boost is a very useful commander effect, he's by no means an auto-include, for me. Like you said, map initiative can be key with a Beholder, and the cheaper Urthok is better for that (not to mention being better for morale). Urthok also boosts your fodder's effectiveness, which the Naga doesn't, and you don't have points wasted on spells that aren't likely to do you much good (since it's very difficult to make use of the Naga's lightning and slapping hand spells when you're trying to keep a Beholder under the influence of your commander effect). | |
"Before God we are all equally wise - and equally foolish." - Albert Einstein
Champion of Myopic Half-Orcs
Winner, WBC X | |
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nycfarmkid
Underboss
1210 Posts
Wadsworth, OH
| | 02/01/2007 10:01 AM |
| Posted By Vrecknidj on 02/01/2007 6:08 AM
Are there enough bands that are becoming reliant on mid-game spells that the Beholder's anti-magic is enough of a threat that it might be elevated to tier 2?
Dave
Thats an interesting thought. A beholder that can get LoS to a Storm band could cause some trouble. Also, the Gnome Trickster bands that use invis in the middle of engagement to allow some more maneuverability would be hurt by this. Shutting down the Trickster's main "trick" can prove troublesome. Snake's Swiftness would be hurt as well. I imagine we will see some more aggressively costed casters in the future, so this would be a thing to keep in mind down the road if it isn't already. | |
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Temysry
Sergeant
485 Posts
| | 02/01/2007 10:19 AM |
| A related question:
Does the beholder's antimagic eye function if he can see the spellcaster, or if the spellcaster can see him? | |
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Faragdar the Wise
Commander
3490 Posts
Albuquerque, NM, USA
| | 02/01/2007 11:35 AM |
| Posted By Temysry on 02/01/2007 10:19 AM
Does the beholder's antimagic eye function if he can see the spellcaster, or if the spellcaster can see him? The Beholder must have line of sight to the spellcaster. Therefore, a spellcaster who is subject to an invisibility spell can cast a spell with no regard to the antimagic eye (even though he becomes visible, and thus probably subject to the eye, after casting). Also, an Archmage need not worry about antimagic if smoke blocks line of sight between the two--he has line of sight to the Beholder, in such a case, because of blindsight, but the Beholder can't see him.
On the snake's swiftness, I thought that the Beholder would become more prevalent, thanks to Titan/SS bands (especially once Kord took the #1 spot from the Marut), but it hasn't happened. Folks don't even seem to have considered Beholder bands. I should think Kord/Couatl/CoDA bands would hate to face a Beholder because of the risk of failure on those critical heal and SS spells. I think the problem is that the Beholder still has too many bad matchups. SWarm, GAS, CE quad, LE quad and FGFP bands are a real pain, among others.
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"Before God we are all equally wise - and equally foolish." - Albert Einstein
Champion of Myopic Half-Orcs
Winner, WBC X | |
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greyhaze
Warlord
6037 Posts
| | 02/01/2007 11:57 AM |
| Posted By roonechr on 01/31/2007 3:38 PM
Of course, based on the leaks so far LE is not getting a any such undead beater.
Not yet. The Devourer at 60pts, the Bone Naga at 62pts, the Beholder Lich at 64pts... seems like some kind of weird skipping record. I half expect Strahd to be 66pts.
But with a Beholder Lich, you could get get in more than you could with the traditional Beholder...
What about Spectres instead of Maugs? With the negative healing and their life drain they could last longer than they normally would... meh, I guess more points in cost and much less to offer, nm.
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Called Shots: Frost Giant in Demon Web, Darkenbeast in Feywild. | |
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Temysry
Sergeant
485 Posts
| | 02/02/2007 5:40 AM |
| Posted By Faragdar the Wise on 02/01/2007 11:35 AM Posted By Temysry on 02/01/2007 10:19 AM
Does the beholder's antimagic eye function if he can see the spellcaster, or if the spellcaster can see him? The Beholder must have line of sight to the spellcaster. Therefore, a spellcaster who is subject to an invisibility spell can cast a spell with no regard to the antimagic eye (even though he becomes visible, and thus probably subject to the eye, after casting). Also, an Archmage need not worry about antimagic if smoke blocks line of sight between the two--he has line of sight to the Beholder, in such a case, because of blindsight, but the Beholder can't see him. On the snake's swiftness, I thought that the Beholder would become more prevalent, thanks to Titan/SS bands (especially once Kord took the #1 spot from the Marut), but it hasn't happened. Folks don't even seem to have considered Beholder bands. I should think Kord/Couatl/CoDA bands would hate to face a Beholder because of the risk of failure on those critical heal and SS spells. I think the problem is that the Beholder still has too many bad matchups. SWarm, GAS, CE quad, LE quad and FGFP bands are a real pain, among others.
Hmm... so if you could somehow give a Beholder blindsight, he could use his eye-rays (and anti-magic eye on invisible targets and even through smoke on Hellspike... interestingÂ
Might be useful in Epic. | |
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greyhaze
Warlord
6037 Posts
| | 02/02/2007 6:43 AM |
| | lol, Red Wizard + Demonic Gnoll Priestess + Beholder = Beholder with Blindsight (provided you make the anti-magic check)... enjoy. | |
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jeremiahcarissa
Warrior
246 Posts
| | 02/02/2007 2:12 PM |
| | The gnoll has seen a lot of play in epic. Why? you ask? Bahamut has had such an impact on things in my area, so I came up with the Epic Pit Fiend, Red Wizard, and Gnoll Priestess. Get the hell spike and it's over for super bahamut!!. First turn meteor swarm and good bye all the super turds behind him. Then fireball fireball fireball until you can't fireball anymore. In fact you should play under so when bahamut tries to kill your fodder and win he won't be able to. This works even more vs Tordek\couatl\ ballista. | |
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Temysry
Sergeant
485 Posts
| | 02/02/2007 4:17 PM |
| Posted By jeremiahcarissa on 02/02/2007 2:12 PM
The gnoll has seen a lot of play in epic. Why? you ask? Bahamut has had such an impact on things in my area, so I came up with the Epic Pit Fiend, Red Wizard, and Gnoll Priestess. Get the hell spike and it's over for super bahamut!!. First turn meteor swarm and good bye all the super turds behind him. Then fireball fireball fireball until you can't fireball anymore. In fact you should play under so when bahamut tries to kill your fodder and win he won't be able to. This works even more vs Tordek\couatl\ ballista.
That same combination (Red Wizard, Gnoll Priestess) has been used a lot in many areas lately. It's nice to see the Red Wizard getting some play time these days, even if it's only as epic tech. | |
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