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Subject: Werewolf lord band - idea on maps?

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Dordledum
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03/07/2007 2:48 AM  
Title says all,

this is my current Werewolf Lord band (taking suggestions for improvement as well):

Werewolf Lord -53
Dire Bear -44
Longstrider ranger -34
Bugbear Champ of Erythnul -34
Orc Wardrummer -19
Monitor Lizard -6
2x Timber Wolf -10

200 points/8 activations

Any suggestions for improvement and map choice? I'd like to survive against CG ranged bands.

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Vrecknidj
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03/07/2007 7:34 AM  
Why the Bugbear Champ and Monitor Lizard?

For the same points, you could put in a Red Samurai or Orc Champion and have much better damage output.

The Dire Bear looks good, I'm not sold on the Longstrider (but then I have haven't tested him in a long time either--he's got a delicious speed).

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03/07/2007 8:15 AM  
I was thinking of something more along the lines of:

Werewolf Lord
Bugbear Champ
Dire Bear x2
Quaggoth Slave
Bat Familiar
Orc Warrior x3
200/9 act

More hitting power with the additional bear and since everyone will hopefully end up fearless you have less need for the wardrummer.  You also wouldn't want to use the intimidating drum beat as much either since you want some creatures to hang around to trigger bloodlust.  Bat gets you to 9 activations and lets you get another magic weapon off in the first round.

As far as map goes, I'd probably pick something like Hellspike since it'll protect you from ranged attacks. Since your bears don't have reach, the smoke will help protect them against enemies with reach.  The strategy should be to lead with the bears and move in to deal a killing blow with the Werewolf Lord as soon as possible to make him fearless.  Once some enemies start dropping, the bugbear will give a damage boost to the bears making them hit for +20/+14 (20 magic).

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Dordledum
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03/07/2007 10:03 AM  
Posted By Vrecknidj on 03/07/2007 7:34 AM
Why the Bugbear Champ and Monitor Lizard?

Dave

Bugbear Champ: got to have magic weapon for this warband to work, Dire Bear and Werewolf Lord both need it.

Monitor Lizard: had 6 points to spare, and with the beastmaster ability from the Werewolf Lord it's kind of playable.

Longstrider: Speed 12, best AC of the lot and 2 decent (magic damage) attacks, for 25 hitpoints less than the dire bear and 10 points cheaper.

I like the reasoning about the hellspike indeed.

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Coquimbo - Chile / Italia

03/07/2007 10:35 AM  
Posted By Temysry on 03/07/2007 8:15 AM
I was thinking of something more along the lines of:

Werewolf Lord
Bugbear Champ
Dire Bear x2
Quaggoth Slave
Bat Familiar
Orc Warrior x3
200/9 act

More hitting power with the additional bear and since everyone will hopefully end up fearless you have less need for the wardrummer.  You also wouldn't want to use the intimidating drum beat as much either since you want some creatures to hang around to trigger bloodlust.  Bat gets you to 9 activations and lets you get another magic weapon off in the first round.

As far as map goes, I'd probably pick something like Hellspike since it'll protect you from ranged attacks. Since your bears don't have reach, the smoke will help protect them against enemies with reach.  The strategy should be to lead with the bears and move in to deal a killing blow with the Werewolf Lord as soon as possible to make him fearless.  Once some enemies start dropping, the bugbear will give a damage boost to the bears making them hit for +20/+14 (20 magic).
bugbear Champion cant give his Cfx to the bears, the bears are WILD or DIFFICULT, and this type of unit can be put under commander effect of an Beastmaster. This bears hit +20/+14 (15 Magic damages)....
sorry about it...


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03/07/2007 10:46 AM  
Posted By Ryoga on 03/07/2007 10:35 AM
bugbear Champion cant give his Cfx to the bears, the bears are WILD or DIFFICULT, and this type of unit can be put under commander effect of an Beastmaster. This bears hit +20/+14 (15 Magic damages)....
sorry about it...



Actually - he can give his CFX to the dire bears as long as they are also under command of the Werewolf Lord.  The Werewolf Lord's Beastmaster removes Wild so they can be put under command by other commanders.

This is the same thing that is done in CG when you put a dire bear under command by both a GFD and Lion of Talisid.

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The Fortress of Solitude

03/07/2007 11:21 AM  
I'd prefer a second Dire Bear over a Longstrider Ranger as well, but it could get very difficult to fight with three large creatures that don't have reach. At least the LR can get around back, and add a flanking bonus, or go after a soft target hiding way in the back. If you want to go with 2 Bears, you'll have to hope that the fight is on a fairly open map like Dragon Shrine.

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Coquimbo - Chile / Italia

03/07/2007 3:47 PM  
Temysry you are right, I believe that this old bears was Dificult 8 instead Wild.... Sorry I dont knok

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03/07/2007 7:38 PM  
Posted By Ryoga on 03/07/2007 3:47 PM
Temysry you are right, I believe that this old bears was Dificult 8 instead Wild.... Sorry I dont knok


Actually - it wouldn't have made a difference.  Beastmaster removes both wild and difficult from the animal in question.  Even if the Dire bear was Difficult 20, he could be put under command by the Bugbear in this warband.

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Dordledum
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03/08/2007 2:53 AM  
Posted By Temysry on 03/07/2007 7:38 PM
Posted By Ryoga on 03/07/2007 3:47 PM
Temysry you are right, I believe that this old bears was Dificult 8 instead Wild.... Sorry I dont knok


Actually - it wouldn't have made a difference.  Beastmaster removes both wild and difficult from the animal in question.  Even if the Dire bear was Difficult 20, he could be put under command by the Bugbear in this warband.
No, he could not. Because the Werewolf Lord has only Beastmaster 8, just enough for the Dire Bear.

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03/08/2007 3:07 AM  
Posted By Dordledum on 03/08/2007 2:53 AM
No, he could not. Because the Werewolf Lord has only Beastmaster 8, just enough for the Dire Bear.

D.



*sigh*  It seems this question comes up after every release.  Please look up the definition of Beastmaster.  If a creature with LEVEL less than or equal to the commander's BEASTMASTER rating, that creature loses DIFFICULT and WILD.

So - since the bear is level 8 and the WWL is Beastmaster 8, it would lose WILD and DIFFICULT - even if it was as much as DIFFICULT 20.  With these removed, any other commander can now put the bear under command.

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Temysry
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03/08/2007 3:09 AM  
This, for instance, applies to the Hyena in CE which happens to be Difficult 20.  As long as he was under command of the WWL, he could also potentially benefit from the Bugbear's CFX.

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Dordledum
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03/08/2007 5:49 AM  
oh, thank you (I'm still a newb in skirmish you know, played my 1st game in january)

D.

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03/08/2007 6:03 AM  
Posted By Dordledum on 03/08/2007 5:49 AM
oh, thank you (I'm still a newb in skirmish you know, played my 1st game in january)

D.


No problem at all.  It's a question many people get wrong.

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iluvxtina
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03/08/2007 6:50 AM  
I,m not absolutely convinced about the usefulness of the werewolf lord.I found much more useful and competitive the eye gruumsh because its cost is lesser and the werewolf,s abilities does not justifie this over cost (in my opinion).But much people say werewolf is much better for its cost.I do not know but I,ll continue using the old eye/champs warband.When I have the werewolf I will try it and convinced myself it is better than the eye (if used with dire bears).

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Coquimbo - Chile / Italia

03/08/2007 6:56 AM  
Posted By iluvxtina on 03/08/2007 6:50 AM
I,m not absolutely convinced about the usefulness of the werewolf lord.I found much more useful and competitive the eye gruumsh because its cost is lesser and the werewolf,s abilities does not justifie this over cost (in my opinion).But much people say werewolf is much better for its cost.I do not know but I,ll continue using the old eye/champs warband.When I have the werewolf I will try it and convinced myself it is better than the eye (if used with dire bears).

iluvxtina, Im completly agree Werewolf lord Still have bad defense and dont have Magic damages, Eye have magic damage... Is really more efective use Orc Champs instead DireBears.... MAgic damages and MORE MORE damage...

Im not convinced about Werewolf.... maybe if CR was more high or Cfx more usefull.... 

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03/08/2007 7:23 AM  
What the Werewolf Lord has over the Eye for 9 more points is Cleave, Blind-Fight (very useful in an invisible heavy meta), +1 CR, DR, 10 more hit points and Bloodlust. Bloodlust is actually pretty significant because it will change the way your opponent plays his fodder. You want the Eye to kill fodder because he takes damage everytime he hits but the Lord gains Fearless for killing your fodder.


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03/08/2007 8:25 AM  
Posted By Brig on 03/08/2007 7:23 AM
What the Werewolf Lord has over the Eye for 9 more points is Cleave, Blind-Fight (very useful in an invisible heavy meta), +1 CR, DR, 10 more hit points and Bloodlust. Bloodlust is actually pretty significant because it will change the way your opponent plays his fodder. You want the Eye to kill fodder because he takes damage everytime he hits but the Lord gains Fearless for killing your fodder.



and Melee Reach 2!

After one full attack by the WWL, he can deal 75 non-magic damage using a cleave and possibly gain fearless.  After one full attack by the EoG, he deals 50 magic damage and takes 10 damage for his trouble.

They certainly fill different rolls despite having very similar stats.  I played him at the sealed tournament here with 32 players and only once did I ever have to make a morale check with him - and by then he was already fearless.  In sealed especially, there's just nothing that can compare with his damage output.


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03/08/2007 8:40 AM  
Posted By Temysry on 03/08/2007 8:25 AM
Posted By Brig on 03/08/2007 7:23 AM
What the Werewolf Lord has over the Eye for 9 more points is Cleave, Blind-Fight (very useful in an invisible heavy meta), +1 CR, DR, 10 more hit points and Bloodlust. Bloodlust is actually pretty significant because it will change the way your opponent plays his fodder. You want the Eye to kill fodder because he takes damage everytime he hits but the Lord gains Fearless for killing your fodder.



and Melee Reach 2!

After one full attack by the WWL, he can deal 75 non-magic damage using a cleave and possibly gain fearless.  After one full attack by the EoG, he deals 50 magic damage and takes 10 damage for his trouble.

They certainly fill different rolls despite having very similar stats.  I played him at the sealed tournament here with 32 players and only once did I ever have to make a morale check with him - and by then he was already fearless.  In sealed especially, there's just nothing that can compare with his damage output.



Are you sure he has melee reach 2?  I know he is large and tall, but the stat spoiler over at Hordelings doesn't make any mention of melee reach 2 - sorry if I'm wrong, as I haven't seen the actual card yet.

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03/08/2007 8:42 AM  
Posted By Thenameless on 03/08/2007 8:40 AM
Posted By Temysry on 03/08/2007 8:25 AM
Posted By Brig on 03/08/2007 7:23 AM
What the Werewolf Lord has over the Eye for 9 more points is Cleave, Blind-Fight (very useful in an invisible heavy meta), +1 CR, DR, 10 more hit points and Bloodlust. Bloodlust is actually pretty significant because it will change the way your opponent plays his fodder. You want the Eye to kill fodder because he takes damage everytime he hits but the Lord gains Fearless for killing your fodder.



and Melee Reach 2!

After one full attack by the WWL, he can deal 75 non-magic damage using a cleave and possibly gain fearless.  After one full attack by the EoG, he deals 50 magic damage and takes 10 damage for his trouble.

They certainly fill different rolls despite having very similar stats.  I played him at the sealed tournament here with 32 players and only once did I ever have to make a morale check with him - and by then he was already fearless.  In sealed especially, there's just nothing that can compare with his damage output.



Are you sure he has melee reach 2?  I know he is large and tall, but the stat spoiler over at Hordelings doesn't make any mention of melee reach 2 - sorry if I'm wrong, as I haven't seen the actual card yet.
No melee reach 2 over at ddmspoilers either, odd for a large.



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03/08/2007 12:05 PM  
Wow - sorry about that.  Yeah - I just checked the card and he does not have reach.  I guess I just assumed that since he was humanoid and large size, he'd have reach.

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03/08/2007 12:34 PM  
Don't say sorry to us, say sorry to the guys you might have beaten because of artificial reach

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03/08/2007 12:45 PM  
Posted By Thenameless on 03/08/2007 12:34 PM
Don't say sorry to us, say sorry to the guys you might have beaten because of artificial reach


Good point.  I don't think there were any situations that I can think of where this would have mattered.  Most of the time, the opposing figures had tried to swarm him.

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03/08/2007 1:09 PM  
no melee reach 2 is a pity, but cleave is cool anyway

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03/08/2007 3:33 PM  
Overall, I'd say the WWL is pretty even with the Eye of Gruumsh for its cost. The Eye's vicious attack gives it a much lower effective HP total than the WWL (especially when it gets swarmed by fodder), making it a much easier kill; plus the WWL can become fearless. On the flip side, the WWL has nothing to match the synergy that the Eye has with Orc Champions - a combination that still rocks in today's game.

If the WWL had melee reach 2, then I'd worry a little bit more about power creep. For the cost, it would easily outgun the Eye. Having reach with cleave and 25 dmg on a creature that can easily become fearless is very nice.

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03/08/2007 8:43 PM  
I really want this beast to work. Can you make up for his low cmd rating with wardrummer or Large black??? + a dire bear and you've got beats for weeks...Bug bear champ can get you MW but thats only 25pt left. Drow wiz saves you 5 pts... don't know...

WWL vs. Eye: different pieces. WWL is a beater who happens to have a commander rating and CFX. Eye is really just a finishing piece that can rally it's self. Both hit hard. You can just wade the WWL in and tear it up but the eye requires some tactics.

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03/09/2007 3:53 AM  
Scrapped what I had last - New plan:

Werewolf Lord 53
Dire Bear 44
Werebear 30
Bugbear Champ 34
Orc Wardrummer 19
Timber Wolf x2 10
Bat 6
Hyena 4

9 activations , 200 points - Map ???

Dropped down from a Dire Bear to a Werebear so I could fit in the Wardrummer. Bugbear Champ isn't as squishy as the Drow Wizard, and his Lesser Frighten spell works with the Orc Wardrummer's Intimidating Beat. The bat will cast one magic weapon allowing Bugbear Champ to have 2 Lesser Frighten spells to use.

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03/09/2007 4:29 AM  
drow wizard is too squishy for my taste, 20 hp and ac 13. he won't survive vs. any band. The bugbear is the only viable option for MW I think.

My original build had the wizard, 2 dire bears, wardrummer, a wolf and 2 gnolls. But my opponent based the wizard with a shadowdancer in round2, so I could only get one use of magic weapon out. 29 points is too expensive for that.

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03/09/2007 6:36 AM  
Why not try a map with plenty of magic circles (Dragon Shrine) or a map which has very good positioned magic circles (Dungeon of Blood, hailstone tower) ?

You know when you are playing too much DDM when you read the Art of War and start wondering how that applies to DDM...

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03/09/2007 7:42 AM  

Well, I still think Hellspike is the way to go.  If you're playing WWL + Dire Bear x2 then you have a ton of HP and would prefer to fight in the smoke since it may hinder the Melee Reach of your opponent, not to mention shut down their ranged attacks and spells until you're right on top of them.

As far as getting MW goes, my top pick still has to be the Bugbear.  He has enough castings to go around, and enough survivability to get them off (especially if you use a bat with him).  On top of that, the bears can benefit from his damage boosting CFX which they desperately need.  You'll also need to protect the WWL until a time where he can waltz in and deliver a coup-de-grace to gain fearlessness himself.  With 2 large bases up front, both commanders should be relatively easy to protect.

Of course, in my original band posted in this thread, I opted to not use the Wardrummer which allowed me to get to 8 activations.  This could be rather risky with things like invisible Gorgons running around.  If you really wanted the wardrummer, you could still get to 7 activations with two orc warriors.  It's a tough call because the +4 to saves won't help with morale if you're already fearless, and using -4 so the enemy runs away doesn't help when you're trying to kill something to become fearless.


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03/10/2007 5:41 AM  
How about we try an all Fearless warband:

Werewolf Lord 53 pts (speed
Thrall of Blackrazor  43 pts (speed
Vampire Dire Wolf 48 pts (speed 10)
Dire Bear 44 pts (speed
x2 Warrior Skeletons 6 pts
Timber Wolf 5 pts

Lots of speed and everyone gains Fearless from Werewolf Lords CFX when they kill something.Â

Lack of Magic Weapon might hurt a bit, but there are not many good options for MW in CE.Â

I might try putting in the Drow Cleric of Lolth (42 pts) for the Dire Bear and upgrade some fodder.  She adds x2 Magic Weapon spells, plus ger other spells are usually useful.  Furthermore, her Commander Rating of 5 means you might get map choice once in a while.  And her CFX might come into play with such fast attackers.Â



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03/10/2007 8:54 AM  
great call on the DCoL, I forgot about her, let's try:

Werewolf Lord -53
Dire Bear -44
Longstrider Ranger -34
Drow Cleric of Lolth -42
Changeling Rogue -8
War Ape -14
Timber Wolf -5

7 activations/200 points
Hellspike

Worth a try!

D.



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