Posted By Meljor on 03/17/2007 8:17 PM
Another way to go is the Ultraloth. If you do it right he can drop the attack bonus by 5 and damage by 15 with his Heightened Ray of Exahaustion and Ray of Enfeeblement. After that he can sit there and hit with his unlimited use Schorching Ray.

Posted By Vrecknidj on 03/18/2007 6:17 AM
So, now we move beyond the Marut.

A friend of mine played this band the other day and did better with it than I would have expected.

Syreth
Kolyarut x2
Sacred Watcher x2
Eberk
Warforged Scout
Human Commoner

Syreth and Eberk get the ACs up pretty high from the start. So, both Kolyaruts and both Sacred Watchers have a new base AC 24. The Firegiant is reliable against this, as is the Marut and Kord. Duergar Champs are missing with their first swings once in a while, and often missing the second time around.

Then, of course, he plays on King's Road. So, in the woods, AC 28 is a bit harder for creatures with +15. Needing a 13 to hit isn't what I would call "reliable." Then, if he can, he gets Syreth into position and flanks with the Watchers. Now those guys have 32 AC.

So, of course, you go after Syreth. But, in the woods, he too has an AC of 28. If you're running Zakyas or Duergar Champs or Black Dragons, you aren't hitting. If those guys survive your line attacks and the like, then you're hoping for a lot of 20s.

In the meantime, the Kolyaruts have all your guys attacking and saving at -2 (and Hold Monster at DC 17 can be an issue for a lot of pieces with a -2 save).

I was playing a CE beater band and had all kinds of trouble hitting his pieces. I knocked Syreth down to a morale check (which he passed) and his cure spells kept him in the game. I finally took him out, but, I had lost one of my beaters and some fodder and he was able to maintain a point advantage just because I couldn't hit. (When I took out Syreth it was with a piece that needed an 18. I rolled a 19. Those aren't reliable odds. He should have beaten me a lot worse than he did.)

Dave

Posted By BoloBaby on 03/18/2007 1:09 PM
Use *snicker* the Sand Giant.

OK, maybe I had a hard time saying that with a straight face, but he's not a horrible match-up against Marut. Good to-hit and enough hit points to soak up a bit of damage. Couple him with the Dwarf Artificer and (with GMW and Rust Construct), your chances of hitting increase but another 6. If the Sand Blaster goes off, Marut becomes easily hittable. Throw in a Dragonmark Heir and protect the Sand Giant from Sonic to nerf Marut further.

I believe that if the Sand Giant had a base damage of 20 instead of 15, lots of people would use him a lot more often.

I once had Epic Marut nerfed to 5 damage a hit. Couatl, Dorf Artificer, Aramil, and my big guns had DR. Ohhhh... Marut wasn't so scary then! ;-)

Posted By Zyla on 03/18/2007 2:13 PM
A dwarf artificier will give any construct band a hard time.

Posted By BoloBaby on 03/18/2007 1:09 PM
Use *snicker* the Sand Giant.

OK, maybe I had a hard time saying that with a straight face, but he's not a horrible match-up against Marut. Good to-hit and enough hit points to soak up a bit of damage. Couple him with the Dwarf Artificer and (with GMW and Rust Construct), your chances of hitting increase but another 6. If the Sand Blaster goes off, Marut becomes easily hittable. Throw in a Dragonmark Heir and protect the Sand Giant from Sonic to nerf Marut further.

I believe that if the Sand Giant had a base damage of 20 instead of 15, lots of people would use him a lot more often.

I once had Epic Marut nerfed to 5 damage a hit. Couatl, Dorf Artificer, Aramil, and my big guns had DR. Ohhhh... Marut wasn't so scary then! ;-)

Posted By Bert the Troll on 03/18/2007 3:03 PM


Espically with a bat to deliver the construct hate.

Posted By Janos M. on 03/19/2007 1:35 AM
What did your autodamage warband looked like Vrecknidji?

Posted By Janos M. on 03/19/2007 1:35 AM
What did your autodamage warband looked like Vrecknidji?

Posted By Vrecknidj on 03/17/2007 6:06 PM
Last year at this time, all the rage was a Marut (AC 25), with a Shield of Faith (AC 27) in the woods (AC 31).  I don't know about pairing him with the Cleric of Syreth, where a flank gets you (AC 35).  But, think about that for a bit.  How much trauma would it cause you if your guy with a +15 attack needed a 20 to hit, and couldn't do a critical?

Even Kord needs a 17 to his AC 35.

Sure, sure, you'll go after Syreth first.  Whatever.  Still, that's AC 31 in the woods.

Marut
Syreth
Sacred Watcher x3
Bat Familiar
Aramil
Human Commoner

Syreth cast's Legion's Shield of Faith, and now he's got AC 23 (27 in the woods), as do all the Watchers, and the Marut is at a healthy 27 on regular terrain.  Syreth has a +5 commander rating, and lots of other folks love King's Road, so there's a fair chance you're fighting on it.  If the Marut is in the woods, his AC is 31.  Thanks to magic weapon, he's attacking at +21 for 20 magic + 10 sonic, so, basically, +21 (30).  He's hard to hit, but he rarely misses, and when he does hit, it hurts.  Aramil weakens a titan enemy, if there is one, and weakens as many smaller hitters as possible if there are multiple beaters.

If you're unlucky and don't have Countersong, and if the Sacred Watchers move to a flanking position with the Marut, then the Watchers have AC 31 (23 + 4 for woods + 4 for flank) in addition to being incorporeal.  So what if they're rarely hitting you?  They'll hit sometimes, they can leave whenever it's convenient and go after something else, and when they're flanking in the woods, they're basically impossible to hit.

Food for thought.

Dave

Posted By JohnnyFive on 03/21/2007 3:14 PM
I'd probably drop as much auto-damage as I could with something like:

Storm Silverhand
Bralani Eladrin x2
Dromite Wilder
Aasimar Favored Soul
Mialee
Timber Wolf
Xeph Warrior

Posted By Vrecknidj on 03/18/2007 8:33 PM
I did some testing tonight. Auto-damage is the way to go against high AC. I destroyed the high-AC band this time (even on King's Road).

The next issue is whether my band has enough oomph to take on some of the other bands out there.

Dave

Posted By Vrecknidj on 04/10/2007 6:06 AM
Well, I was right about the auto-damage thing.  Black Dragons have totally decended upon the tournament scene.  The band I dreamed up a while back gets hammered by Triple Black.



Dave

Posted By Vrecknidj on 04/12/2007 7:55 AM
On Hellspike, Lord Soth isn't too bad. Put a couple of Greenspawn Sneaks in there to Scout out to the victory areas, and then you have suicide bomber targets so that you know you can get into your opponent's start areas, independently of your opponent trying to send out a screener.

The abyssal blast is a lot of up-front damage.

Give Soth a bodyguard, and now he's also immune to acid...

Still, he's too many points for me to risk.

Dave

Posted By simage on 04/12/2007 8:19 AM
How about a bone naga to nerf the SR and and ultroloth to nerf the marut.  Then your 2x doogies can try and beat him down.  You at least have the scorching rays from the ultroloth to help out.

Posted By tundrin on 04/12/2007 9:09 AM

And wouldnt you love to see the look on someone's face if a couple of their Large Black Dragons failed the Legion's Undeniable Gravity save? With speed 10 they are going to get somewhere pretty fast anyway (but might save you an attack round if they are crawling through the forest), but would come close to a RW confusion spell.

Posted By Vrecknidj on 04/13/2007 8:12 AM
My only worry about your bands, nycfarmkid, is that the War Wizards, Couatl, and Arcane Ballista really have to stay packed together, and in the woods. If you lose the map roll, you could be in serious trouble. I've thought about a band like that, but then I imagine trying to win with it on Hellspike and I just sigh.

Dave