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Subject: WBC X -- Complete!

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Vrecknidj
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03/19/2007 7:03 AM  
See the last post.


No sense having a top 4, or dragging this out since WBC X has turned into a spectacular flop.  Unless I get an amazing call from folks, this is it.

The results after two rounds of voting are:

Bands that are 2-0: F, G
Bands that are 1-1: H, E, B, D
Bands that are 0-2: A, C

So, the only round 3 matchup that matters is:

Match 1) F v. G



The winner gets all the wonderful prizes.

F) Human Blackguard 6 / Rakshasa 4
Human Blackguard (Captain)
Rakshasa (Sergeant)
Duergar Champion
Chraal
Zakya Rakshasa
Warrior Skeleton
Kobold Miner
Goblin Skirmisher
Map: Frostfell Rift


Strategy:  LE does not have countersong and in a multi-commander environment, that really sucks.  The solution is to try to take advantage of the multi-commander environment with the Rakshasa.  The Rakshasa has double the normal chance to provide a beneficial commander effect.  Any time the commander effect is useful, it should be abused as much as possible.  With a high commander rating (6), initiative should be common.  The map gives the Rakshasa a chance to be a "fourth hitter" by sliding enemies into pits.  The Blackguard should assure that all three hitters fight until their last
breath.  Biggest problems include Fire Giant Forgepriest and Storm.  In the former case, the Chraal needs to blast him early and base him before dying.  In the latter case, Storm needs to be a priority kill to get rid of countersong (this goes for any other countersong unit as well).  The multi-beater aspect of the warband is pretty standard and standard strategies apply.  Lead with the least susceptible to opponent's tricks or least important if all are equally susceptible.  Try to base opponent's figures with multiple beaters to make Slapping Hand more effective.  Avoid basing Chraal with own beaters when Chraal is near death.  Bring in Blackguard to be a 4th beater when other units have made morale saves already (or if it is otherwise necessary), but definitely AFTER Chraal has died (or is very near death).


G) Vlaakith the Lich Queen 3 / Lich Necromancer 2
Vlaakith the Lich Queen (Captain)
Lich Necromancer (Sergeant)
Ogre Ravager
Troglodyte
Orc Warrior
Gnoll
Warrior Skeleton
Twig Blight
Map: King’s Road


First of all, no fair being biased against Vlaakith just because she won the last challenge.  This band is no joke.  In testing, it's proven to be very tough in this format.  I chose this band for the following reasons: 1) Two tough commanders that can dish damage, 2) Lich Necro makes a mean sergeant – gets damage bonus and generates new followers who get the bonus, 3) no Swarm or Korducopia to worry about, 4) I have a soft spot for the Lich Necromancer, since he won me a qualifier.


Ogre Ravager – powerful hitter to capitalize on paralysis, tough blocker (the Ravager can often hold his own for a while against two 30+ point hitters), resilient against fire.  (I considered the Zombie White Dragon, but he just doesn’t lend enough offense.)  Even with just +10 on his first attack, the Ravager is a serious threat to most anyone.
Troglodyte – would have preferred a Cursed Spirit, but I felt it more important to maximize activations.  With max activations, I can force the opponent to make much tougher choices while waiting to see what Vlaakith will do.
Necro CE – will make Gnoll or Orc Skeletons (maybe even a rare Skeletal Archers) depending on the enemy.  Vs. 15+ damage hitters, Orcs, otherwise Gnolls.
King’s Road – I think the Liches operate best in the woods for the AC boost and spellcasting freedom (and the woods can split up the enemy), but they can handle wide open maps (los spells) and tight maps (blockers).


The strategy here is for the Liches to do a lot of damage with spells before engagement (including a fireball to reduce activations and/or inflict some damage on those 65-80 hitters—where they become more vulnerable to disintegrate—if I can).  If I can hold monster to paralyze a juicy target for the Ravager, I will (the Necro has two of those spells, and he can paralyze with a melee attack once engaged, so no point in holding on to the spells, unless it makes better sense to use magic missile first).  The Troglodyte might survive for a round or two, and his job will be to make it easier for the Ravager to hit and/or the paralysis to stick.  I realize the band will start behind by a round on assault points, but I expect to make that up with kills.


Toughest matchups I’ve envisioned are vs. Cadaver Collector or an LE quad with Maug, Helmed Horror, Zakya Rakshasa, and Duergar Champion.  (Sure, a Storm band can shut down the Necro’s CE, but that’s not the end of the world.)  The latter will have soft commanders.  I’d paralyze and eliminate the ZakRak, engage the other hitters with the Ravager and, if possible, smack down the commanders for a commanding lead.  Vs. Cadaver Collector, the Liches avoid the construct while the Ravager ties him up and then go after the commanders and support.  I'd keep fodder clear of the construct, if possible without exposing the Liches, to avoid boosting the guy's AC too much.  The Liches would only try to duke it out with the construct if the Ravager managed two hits before dieing.  Then electric orbs plus melee hits have a reasonable chance to finish him.


Voting is now open, and will close at 8pm, New York time, Sunday, March 25.


Dave


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Faragdar the Wise
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03/19/2007 9:00 AM  
I'll definitely vote, and I hope plenty of others vote. Since this fight would most likely be on team F's map, I'm going to have to get a look at the Frostfell Rift map before I weigh in. I've never played on it, so I'm not sure how much of a factor the Rakshasa's slide might be (though with the high saves of team G, a slide kill isn't likely even if it could be a factor). Also, I'm not sure how much of a factor team G's ranged superiority might be. I thought G had a clear advantage over the Shuluth LE beater band from last round, and though the hitters are very similar in team F's band, the commanders are stronger, even though the Rakshasa doesn't have any good commander effects to steal. This could be a fairly close match, and I may actually try to play it out a couple times rather than just treat it as a thought exercise.

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greyhaze
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03/23/2007 11:15 AM  
It'd be funny as heck to see Vlaakith and Lich King run off due to Chill Touch, which at +13 save for both is a decent chance... but, more than likely even with spell resistance, the Zakya won't get the chance. It's an interesting match up too because the Rakshasa can make undead minions of his own. Basically 3 hitters +2 tough commanders vs 3 hitters.

I'll vote for F.


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03/23/2007 1:40 PM  
Posted By greyhaze on 03/23/2007 11:15 AM
It's an interesting match up too because the Rakshasa can make undead minions of his own.
No, he can't.  He only gets commander effects that benefit his own followers.

I'm voting G.

The fight will probably be on F's choice of map, but that wide open center on Frostfell Rift with choke points (F has no fliers) gives G an early advantage--they'll be able to blast away with ranged spells before the fight even happens.  F may have more beef to start (1 hitter of which is almost completely ineffective against G's commanders), but he'll be seriously softened up before it becomes a straight-up melee (the Ravager can probably block until the Liches run out of spells).  I agree that the chill touch won't work on Vlaakith (because it has to get through spell resistance before she even has to worry about a save).  It could work on the Necromancer, but G will be able to prevent that on the Rift.  Also, careful placement will prevent slide from the Rakshasa from being a factor.

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greyhaze
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03/23/2007 2:13 PM  
Rats.

The winner of the map initiative could take his opponents map King Road to block up some LOS, but the ACs start to get out of control, and no basing, so you're right it will probably be on the ice map.

Also the doogie is immune paralysis and the zakrak is spell resistant, so that helps in the throw down, as well as the others don't have blindsight or even blind-fight.

I kind of picture the Chraal taking on the Ravager if the Ravager hits AC21 it's for 25 (not including smite), it has a 50% chance to fail saves from bw and burst, while the rest go for the liches.  Chraal moves to within 3-6 and bw's, ravager closes to melee reach 2 or charges, Rakshasa slides chraal to base, death burst awaits.  It'll be close, but in favour of the Chraal.

The rest of the warband should be able to base and generally make it a nightmare for the lich's, not that they are not dangerous.  The spells/saves will make all the difference.


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Nobody Important
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03/23/2007 9:23 PM  
G - Paralysis and immune to cold should be too much for all those living targets. The ZakRak could present problems but will get paralyzed and die as does most of the rest of the LE force.



Raland
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03/24/2007 7:05 AM  

Voting for F, I forsee F getting a few Undead through the stolen Cfx and have a bit more Beef.


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03/24/2007 9:36 AM  
Posted By Raland on 03/24/2007 7:05 AM

Voting for F, I forsee F getting a few Undead through the stolen Cfx and have a bit more Beef.

Keep in mind, that can't happen.  The Rakshasa's commander effect doesn't work that way.

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Raland
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03/24/2007 9:44 AM  
Posted By Faragdar the Wise on 03/24/2007 9:36 AM
 The Rakshasa's commander effect doesn't work that way.


Oh perhaps, I am confused.  Isn't the Liche Necromancers Cfx that dead enemies become undead followers?  Seeing how the there's a few weenie creatures (trog etc), I would think the Rakshasa might have a better chance of winding up with some hiself.

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03/24/2007 9:58 AM  
Posted By Raland on 03/24/2007 9:44 AM
Oh perhaps, I am confused.  Isn't the Liche Necromancers Cfx that dead enemies become undead followers?  Seeing how the there's a few weenie creatures (trog etc), I would think the Rakshasa might have a better chance of winding up with some hiself.
From the Rak's card: Followers benefit from the commander effects of every enemy commander this creature can see.

The Lich Necromancer's Cfx is not one that benefits followers, so the Rakshasa can't "steal" it.  You can check the official FAQ for a complete discussion: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/files/dnd_mi_faq.pdf

Oh, and a reminder of a couple of the other nuances of the Lich's commander effect.  Followers generated in this way aren't worth victory points when destroyed.  Creatures with death burst (such as the Chraal) are immune to his commander effect.  That stuff, and other info, can be found in the official errata: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/files/dnd_mi_errata.pdf

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Raland
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03/24/2007 10:21 AM  
Sorry for all the questions in the voting thread.  I wonder how many times in my games I've overlooked the distinction in the Raks Cfx.

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Thrace
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03/24/2007 11:47 AM  

F is for fun

Voting F


Let's make a thread about it.

Damien the Bloodfeaster
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03/24/2007 7:16 PM  

I'm gonna give the nod to G here. Its spells, paralysis, and the ability to harvest a few extra minions should give it the edge, despite losing map initiative.


Vrecknidj
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03/25/2007 7:11 AM  
Raland: What band are you voting for?

Dave

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My Trade Thread and My Reference Thread; Winner of WBC IV, IX and XIII; Rule #0: bshugg is always right!
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03/25/2007 3:40 PM  
I vote for G. The liches have the advantage in this match-up. Vlaakith has a fireball that, if detonated anywhere near the Chraal, will do a minimum of 20 damage, and could do up to 40 dmg; plus it's a fodder eliminator. One mistake by F, in advancing its units, could mean a key piece facing an untimely disintegrate. The Necromancer's hold monster works on every key enemy piece except the Chraal. And somewhere along the way, the Necromancer's CFX should help with one or two fodder pieces.

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03/25/2007 8:00 PM  
Posted By Thenameless on 03/25/2007 3:40 PM
The Necromancer's hold monster works on every key enemy piece except the Chraal.
Actually, it won't work on the Duergar Champion (immune paralysis), and it has to beat spell resistance to work on either of the Rakshasas.  Not that I mean to talk you out of your vote--you pointed out plenty of good reasons why G has the advantage, but hold monster may not be much of a factor.

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Vrecknidj
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03/26/2007 4:36 AM  
It's kinda hard to actually count the votes here, given what's been pointed out to folks about their votes and the lack of return comments.

However, if I go with the actual votes cast, prior to the deadline, the winner is G by a vote of 4 to 3.

F: 3
G: 4

So, the official winner is G. Congratulations to the pilot of band G, Faragdar the Wise!

Given the relative weak voting in WBC X, perhaps we need to give the challenge a rest for a few weeks. But, Faragdar, that will now be your call.

Dave

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My Trade Thread and My Reference Thread; Winner of WBC IV, IX and XIII; Rule #0: bshugg is always right!

Faragdar the Wise
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03/26/2007 4:45 PM  
Well, it was a victory, though it would have been much nicer had there been more interest. Can it be blamed on qualifier season and/or the lack of Unhallowed in the challenge? I think I'll run a poll before starting up WBC XI.

"Before God we are all equally wise - and equally foolish." - Albert Einstein
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