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 Vrecknidj Warlord
 10493 Posts


 United States
 | | 03/19/2007 7:03 AM |
| See the last post.
No sense having a top 4, or dragging this out since WBC X has turned into a spectacular flop. Unless I get an amazing call from folks, this is it.
The results after two rounds of voting are:
Bands that are 2-0: F, G Bands that are 1-1: H, E, B, D Bands that are 0-2: A, C
So, the only round 3 matchup that matters is:
Match 1) F v. G
The winner gets all the wonderful prizes.
F) Human Blackguard 6 / Rakshasa 4 Human Blackguard (Captain) Rakshasa (Sergeant) Duergar Champion Chraal Zakya Rakshasa Warrior Skeleton Kobold Miner Goblin Skirmisher Map: Frostfell Rift
Strategy:
LE does not have countersong and in a multi-commander environment, that
really sucks. The solution is to try to take advantage of the
multi-commander environment with the Rakshasa. The Rakshasa has double
the normal chance to provide a beneficial commander effect. Any time
the commander effect is useful, it should be abused as much as
possible. With a high commander rating (6), initiative should be
common. The map gives the Rakshasa a chance to be a "fourth hitter" by
sliding enemies into pits. The Blackguard should assure that all three
hitters fight until their last breath. Biggest problems include
Fire Giant Forgepriest and Storm. In the former case, the Chraal needs
to blast him early and base him before dying. In the latter case,
Storm needs to be a priority kill to get rid of countersong (this goes
for any other countersong unit as well). The multi-beater aspect of
the warband is pretty standard and standard strategies apply. Lead
with the least susceptible to opponent's tricks or least important if
all are equally susceptible. Try to base opponent's figures with
multiple beaters to make Slapping Hand more effective. Avoid basing
Chraal with own beaters when Chraal is near death. Bring in Blackguard
to be a 4th beater when other units have made morale saves already (or
if it is otherwise necessary), but definitely AFTER Chraal has died (or
is very near death).
G) Vlaakith the Lich Queen 3 / Lich Necromancer 2 Vlaakith the Lich Queen (Captain) Lich Necromancer (Sergeant) Ogre Ravager Troglodyte Orc Warrior Gnoll Warrior Skeleton Twig Blight Map: King’s Road
First
of all, no fair being biased against Vlaakith just because she won the
last challenge. This band is no joke. In testing, it's proven to be
very tough in this format. I chose this band for the following
reasons: 1) Two tough commanders that can dish damage, 2) Lich Necro
makes a mean sergeant – gets damage bonus and generates new followers
who get the bonus, 3) no Swarm or Korducopia to worry about, 4) I have
a soft spot for the Lich Necromancer, since he won me a qualifier.
Ogre
Ravager – powerful hitter to capitalize on paralysis, tough blocker
(the Ravager can often hold his own for a while against two 30+ point
hitters), resilient against fire. (I considered the Zombie White
Dragon, but he just doesn’t lend enough offense.) Even with just +10
on his first attack, the Ravager is a serious threat to most anyone. Troglodyte
– would have preferred a Cursed Spirit, but I felt it more important to
maximize activations. With max activations, I can force the opponent
to make much tougher choices while waiting to see what Vlaakith will do. Necro
CE – will make Gnoll or Orc Skeletons (maybe even a rare Skeletal
Archers) depending on the enemy. Vs. 15+ damage hitters, Orcs,
otherwise Gnolls. King’s Road – I think the Liches operate best in
the woods for the AC boost and spellcasting freedom (and the woods can
split up the enemy), but they can handle wide open maps (los spells)
and tight maps (blockers).
The strategy here is for the Liches to
do a lot of damage with spells before engagement (including a fireball
to reduce activations and/or inflict some damage on those 65-80
hitters—where they become more vulnerable to disintegrate—if I can).
If I can hold monster to paralyze a juicy target for the Ravager, I
will (the Necro has two of those spells, and he can paralyze with a
melee attack once engaged, so no point in holding on to the spells,
unless it makes better sense to use magic missile first). The
Troglodyte might survive for a round or two, and his job will be to
make it easier for the Ravager to hit and/or the paralysis to stick. I
realize the band will start behind by a round on assault points, but I
expect to make that up with kills.
Toughest matchups I’ve
envisioned are vs. Cadaver Collector or an LE quad with Maug, Helmed
Horror, Zakya Rakshasa, and Duergar Champion. (Sure, a Storm band can
shut down the Necro’s CE, but that’s not the end of the world.) The
latter will have soft commanders. I’d paralyze and eliminate the
ZakRak, engage the other hitters with the Ravager and, if possible,
smack down the commanders for a commanding lead. Vs. Cadaver
Collector, the Liches avoid the construct while the Ravager ties him up
and then go after the commanders and support. I'd keep fodder clear of
the construct, if possible without exposing the Liches, to avoid
boosting the guy's AC too much. The Liches would only try to duke it
out with the construct if the Ravager managed two hits before dieing.
Then electric orbs plus melee hits have a reasonable chance to finish
him.
Voting is now open, and will close at 8pm, New York time, Sunday, March 25.
Dave
| | Knowledge Arcana editor issues 5-9, Phoenix Lore Magazine editor, assistant editor for Rite Publishing; My Trade Thread and My Reference Thread; Winner of WBC IV, IX and XIII; Rule #0: bshugg is always right! | |
|  Faragdar the Wise Commander
 3547 Posts



 Albuquerque, NM, USA
 | | 03/19/2007 9:00 AM |
| | I'll definitely vote, and I hope plenty of others vote. Since this fight would most likely be on team F's map, I'm going to have to get a look at the Frostfell Rift map before I weigh in. I've never played on it, so I'm not sure how much of a factor the Rakshasa's slide might be (though with the high saves of team G, a slide kill isn't likely even if it could be a factor). Also, I'm not sure how much of a factor team G's ranged superiority might be. I thought G had a clear advantage over the Shuluth LE beater band from last round, and though the hitters are very similar in team F's band, the commanders are stronger, even though the Rakshasa doesn't have any good commander effects to steal. This could be a fairly close match, and I may actually try to play it out a couple times rather than just treat it as a thought exercise. | | "Before God we are all equally wise - and equally foolish." - Albert Einstein Champion of Myopic Half-Orcs Winner, WBC X | |
| Duke of Spoils greyhaze Warlord
 7720 Posts




 | | 03/23/2007 11:15 AM |
| It'd be funny as heck to see Vlaakith and Lich King run off due to Chill Touch, which at +13 save for both is a decent chance... but, more than likely even with spell resistance, the Zakya won't get the chance. It's an interesting match up too because the Rakshasa can make undead minions of his own. Basically 3 hitters +2 tough commanders vs 3 hitters.
I'll vote for F. | | Greyhaze's DDM Spoilers Champion of a Medium Dog & then a Darkenbeast , Raistlin Majere, Nightmare WDQ25/60, Warduke WD60/60, Anti-Champion of Guns, "Knight of Bugbears", and Joke Champion of Venger. Called Shots: Frost Giant in Dangerous Delves. | |
|  Faragdar the Wise Commander
 3547 Posts



 Albuquerque, NM, USA
 | | 03/23/2007 1:40 PM |
| Posted By greyhaze on 03/23/2007 11:15 AM It's an interesting match up too because the Rakshasa can make undead minions of his own. No, he can't. He only gets commander effects that benefit his own followers.
I'm voting G.
The fight will probably be on F's choice of map, but that wide open center on Frostfell Rift with choke points (F has no fliers) gives G an early advantage--they'll be able to blast away with ranged spells before the fight even happens. F may have more beef to start (1 hitter of which is almost completely ineffective against G's commanders), but he'll be seriously softened up before it becomes a straight-up melee (the Ravager can probably block until the Liches run out of spells). I agree that the chill touch won't work on Vlaakith (because it has to get through spell resistance before she even has to worry about a save). It could work on the Necromancer, but G will be able to prevent that on the Rift. Also, careful placement will prevent slide from the Rakshasa from being a factor. | | "Before God we are all equally wise - and equally foolish." - Albert Einstein Champion of Myopic Half-Orcs Winner, WBC X | |
| Duke of Spoils greyhaze Warlord
 7720 Posts




 | | 03/23/2007 2:13 PM |
| Rats.
The winner of the map initiative could take his opponents map King Road to block up some LOS, but the ACs start to get out of control, and no basing, so you're right it will probably be on the ice map.
Also the doogie is immune paralysis and the zakrak is spell resistant, so that helps in the throw down, as well as the others don't have blindsight or even blind-fight.
I kind of picture the Chraal taking on the Ravager if the Ravager hits AC21 it's for 25 (not including smite), it has a 50% chance to fail saves from bw and burst, while the rest go for the liches. Chraal moves to within 3-6 and bw's, ravager closes to melee reach 2 or charges, Rakshasa slides chraal to base, death burst awaits. It'll be close, but in favour of the Chraal.
The rest of the warband should be able to base and generally make it a nightmare for the lich's, not that they are not dangerous. The spells/saves will make all the difference. | | Greyhaze's DDM Spoilers Champion of a Medium Dog & then a Darkenbeast , Raistlin Majere, Nightmare WDQ25/60, Warduke WD60/60, Anti-Champion of Guns, "Knight of Bugbears", and Joke Champion of Venger. Called Shots: Frost Giant in Dangerous Delves. | |
| Nobody Important Sergeant
 718 Posts



 | | 03/23/2007 9:23 PM |
| G - Paralysis and immune to cold should be too much for all those living targets. The ZakRak could present problems but will get paralyzed and die as does most of the rest of the LE force.
| | | |
| Raland Sergeant
 924 Posts




 | | 03/24/2007 7:05 AM |
| Voting for F, I forsee F getting a few Undead through the stolen Cfx and have a bit more Beef. | | Champion of the Kender ckissee - "providing TPK's since 2007" Albert Einstein never once said that if the bees disappeared, "man would have only four years of life left" but the theory is a scary prospect. | |
|  Faragdar the Wise Commander
 3547 Posts



 Albuquerque, NM, USA
 | | 03/24/2007 9:36 AM |
| Posted By Raland on 03/24/2007 7:05 AM Voting for F, I forsee F getting a few Undead through the stolen Cfx and have a bit more Beef. Keep in mind, that can't happen. The Rakshasa's commander effect doesn't work that way. | | "Before God we are all equally wise - and equally foolish." - Albert Einstein Champion of Myopic Half-Orcs Winner, WBC X | |
| Raland Sergeant
 924 Posts




 | | 03/24/2007 9:44 AM |
| Posted By Faragdar the Wise on 03/24/2007 9:36 AM The Rakshasa's commander effect doesn't work that way.
Oh perhaps, I am confused. Isn't the Liche Necromancers Cfx that dead enemies become undead followers? Seeing how the there's a few weenie creatures (trog etc), I would think the Rakshasa might have a better chance of winding up with some hiself. | | Champion of the Kender ckissee - "providing TPK's since 2007" Albert Einstein never once said that if the bees disappeared, "man would have only four years of life left" but the theory is a scary prospect. | |
|  Faragdar the Wise Commander
 3547 Posts



 Albuquerque, NM, USA
 | | 03/24/2007 9:58 AM |
| Posted By Raland on 03/24/2007 9:44 AM Oh perhaps, I am confused. Isn't the Liche Necromancers Cfx that dead enemies become undead followers? Seeing how the there's a few weenie creatures (trog etc), I would think the Rakshasa might have a better chance of winding up with some hiself. From the Rak's card: Followers benefit from the commander effects of every enemy commander this creature can see.
The Lich Necromancer's Cfx is not one that benefits followers, so the Rakshasa can't "steal" it. You can check the official FAQ for a complete discussion: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/files/dnd_mi_faq.pdf
Oh, and a reminder of a couple of the other nuances of the Lich's commander effect. Followers generated in this way aren't worth victory points when destroyed. Creatures with death burst (such as the Chraal) are immune to his commander effect. That stuff, and other info, can be found in the official errata: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/files/dnd_mi_errata.pdf | | "Before God we are all equally wise - and equally foolish." - Albert Einstein Champion of Myopic Half-Orcs Winner, WBC X | |
| Raland Sergeant
 924 Posts




 | | 03/24/2007 10:21 AM |
| | Sorry for all the questions in the voting thread. I wonder how many times in my games I've overlooked the distinction in the Raks Cfx. | | Champion of the Kender ckissee - "providing TPK's since 2007" Albert Einstein never once said that if the bees disappeared, "man would have only four years of life left" but the theory is a scary prospect. | |
| Thrace Sneak
 51 Posts



 West Chester, Ohio
 | | 03/24/2007 11:47 AM |
| F is for fun
Voting F | | Let's make a thread about it. | |
| Damien the Bloodfeaster Sergeant
 885 Posts



 Portland, OR
 | | 03/24/2007 7:16 PM |
| I'm gonna give the nod to G here. Its spells, paralysis, and the ability to harvest a few extra minions should give it the edge, despite losing map initiative. | | | |
|  Vrecknidj Warlord
 10493 Posts


 United States
 | | Knight of the Round Table Thenameless Warlord
 12507 Posts



 The Fortress of Solitude
 | | 03/25/2007 3:40 PM |
| | I vote for G. The liches have the advantage in this match-up. Vlaakith has a fireball that, if detonated anywhere near the Chraal, will do a minimum of 20 damage, and could do up to 40 dmg; plus it's a fodder eliminator. One mistake by F, in advancing its units, could mean a key piece facing an untimely disintegrate. The Necromancer's hold monster works on every key enemy piece except the Chraal. And somewhere along the way, the Necromancer's CFX should help with one or two fodder pieces. | | Over 270 successful online DDM trades. | |
|  Faragdar the Wise Commander
 3547 Posts



 Albuquerque, NM, USA
 | | 03/25/2007 8:00 PM |
| Posted By Thenameless on 03/25/2007 3:40 PM The Necromancer's hold monster works on every key enemy piece except the Chraal.
Actually, it won't work on the Duergar Champion (immune paralysis), and it has to beat spell resistance to work on either of the Rakshasas. Not that I mean to talk you out of your vote--you pointed out plenty of good reasons why G has the advantage, but hold monster may not be much of a factor. | | "Before God we are all equally wise - and equally foolish." - Albert Einstein Champion of Myopic Half-Orcs Winner, WBC X | |
|  Vrecknidj Warlord
 10493 Posts


 United States
 | | 03/26/2007 4:36 AM |
| It's kinda hard to actually count the votes here, given what's been pointed out to folks about their votes and the lack of return comments.
However, if I go with the actual votes cast, prior to the deadline, the winner is G by a vote of 4 to 3.
F: 3 G: 4
So, the official winner is G. Congratulations to the pilot of band G, Faragdar the Wise!
Given the relative weak voting in WBC X, perhaps we need to give the challenge a rest for a few weeks. But, Faragdar, that will now be your call.
Dave | | Knowledge Arcana editor issues 5-9, Phoenix Lore Magazine editor, assistant editor for Rite Publishing; My Trade Thread and My Reference Thread; Winner of WBC IV, IX and XIII; Rule #0: bshugg is always right! | |
|  Faragdar the Wise Commander
 3547 Posts



 Albuquerque, NM, USA
 | | 03/26/2007 4:45 PM |
| | Well, it was a victory, though it would have been much nicer had there been more interest. Can it be blamed on qualifier season and/or the lack of Unhallowed in the challenge? I think I'll run a poll before starting up WBC XI. | | "Before God we are all equally wise - and equally foolish." - Albert Einstein Champion of Myopic Half-Orcs Winner, WBC X | |
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