 Vrecknidj Warlord
 10493 Posts


 United States
 | | 04/08/2007 2:20 PM |
| Large Silver Dragon Marut Hill Dwarf Warrior
My new band. The Large Silver flies to a victory area, the Marut eventually catches up, and then I hope I win.

Dave
| | Knowledge Arcana editor issues 5-9, Phoenix Lore Magazine editor, assistant editor for Rite Publishing; My Trade Thread and My Reference Thread; Winner of WBC IV, IX and XIII; Rule #0: bshugg is always right! | |
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 Faragdar the Wise Commander
 3547 Posts



 Albuquerque, NM, USA
 | | 04/08/2007 3:28 PM |
| Absolutely. Sometimes to you just have to sacrifice activations to play what you want.
Ghaele Eladrin Aspect of Kord Bat Familiar Timber Wolf
Kord gets in your face. Ghaele is his ranged support. Wolf worries about tiles. Bat delivers the big healing spell to Kord when he needs it, so you don't have to risk Ghaele. | | "Before God we are all equally wise - and equally foolish." - Albert Einstein Champion of Myopic Half-Orcs Winner, WBC X | |
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Sirohk Commander
 3938 Posts



 USA
 | | 04/08/2007 4:41 PM |
| Posted By Vrecknidj on 04/08/2007 2:20 PM Large Silver Dragon Marut Hill Dwarf Warrior My new band. The Large Silver flies to a victory area, the Marut eventually catches up, and then I hope I win.  Dave Actually, that does not sound too bad. Maybe on the Drow Outpost. Better yet, Kings Road (Shadowdancer hate). Of course with no commander you'll have a fat chance of getting the map you want.Â
But still, that's a lot of hit points, 2 Breath Weapons, Blindsight, and high AC.Â

| | Sirohk, the Bard of Heartstone Knight of the Rahshasa's And Crusader of the Zakya, Ak'chazar, Naztharune, and Naityan Rakshasa's | |
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Knight of the Round Table Thenameless Warlord
 12507 Posts



 The Fortress of Solitude
 | | 04/08/2007 5:34 PM |
| | The Marut and LSD could certainly take a while to kill. Heck, this warband ain't half-bad. You'll definitely be getting tile points for a while. Looks like it could take on Dancers pretty well too. | | Over 270 successful online DDM trades. | |
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Zyla Underboss
 1201 Posts




 | | 04/08/2007 6:27 PM |
| | Alot of people are too caught up in the "must have 8 activations" mindset when making a warband. 8 activations is good if it has a benefit to the warband, there is no point in reducing a good 6 activation band to 8 activations when those extra 2 activations wont do anything for the warband, and will in fact make it weaker. | | | |
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scruffydude7 Underboss
 1196 Posts



 Rock Hill, SC
 | | 04/08/2007 7:23 PM |
| How about:
Large Silver Dragon Ulmo Lightbringer
Similar to the Marut idea, but depends a lot more on enemies failing paralysis and stun saves. Also, Ulmo can keep up with the LSD a bit better. | | Champion of the Revenant Knight of the Elf Duskblade Complete Trades: Oni, Kidkach, Melrune, callidusx3 | |
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vanrulzz Commander
 2778 Posts



 ¯\(°_o)/¯
 | | 04/08/2007 7:42 PM |
| | is there any way to increase Tickle me Ulmo's damage? if it werent for the 5 damage strikes i would use him. | | | |
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 Vrecknidj Warlord
 10493 Posts


 United States
 | | 04/08/2007 7:47 PM |
| Ulmo can do a lot more on a stunning attack if he's under the Young Master's command.
He's a monster when he gets a flank.
I posted another Ulmo option in another thread.
Dave | | Knowledge Arcana editor issues 5-9, Phoenix Lore Magazine editor, assistant editor for Rite Publishing; My Trade Thread and My Reference Thread; Winner of WBC IV, IX and XIII; Rule #0: bshugg is always right! | |
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vanrulzz Commander
 2778 Posts



 ¯\(°_o)/¯
 | | 04/08/2007 7:50 PM |
| | Doh! Just noticed +15 sneak atk, holy crap. | | | |
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 Vrecknidj Warlord
 10493 Posts


 United States
 | | 04/08/2007 8:07 PM |
| Posted By vanrulzz on 04/08/2007 7:50 PM Doh! Just noticed +15 sneak atk, holy crap. 
Exactly. Now you see his value.
Quite the dude. Nice high level, awesome AC, etc. The only drawback is the relatively low hit points--that, and he HATES constructs.
Dave
| | Knowledge Arcana editor issues 5-9, Phoenix Lore Magazine editor, assistant editor for Rite Publishing; My Trade Thread and My Reference Thread; Winner of WBC IV, IX and XIII; Rule #0: bshugg is always right! | |
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Thrace Sneak
 51 Posts



 West Chester, Ohio
 | | 04/09/2007 12:39 AM |
| 105 Pit Fiend 94 Steel Predator
Graa! | | Let's make a thread about it. | |
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 Vrecknidj Warlord
 10493 Posts


 United States
 | | 04/09/2007 5:47 AM |
| I saw that one too Thrace. I was looking through the factions for different low-activation combos. That's another gross-looking combo.
Dave | | Knowledge Arcana editor issues 5-9, Phoenix Lore Magazine editor, assistant editor for Rite Publishing; My Trade Thread and My Reference Thread; Winner of WBC IV, IX and XIII; Rule #0: bshugg is always right! | |
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Master of the Awesome Sauce Teflon Jeff Warlord
 7908 Posts



 Sector 2814
 | | 04/09/2007 9:14 AM |
| Yeah, that looks mean, and I think Drow Outpost would be really strong for it.
Really, Fire damage is the only worry it would have. Horrors, Octo-skull, Vlaakith. Anything with fire damage would be a bad matchup.
| | Official Delegate, Wizards of the Coast Icons Called Shot: Gargantuan Prismatic Dragon "Rejoice, for bad things are about to happen." | |
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 Faragdar the Wise Commander
 3547 Posts



 Albuquerque, NM, USA
 | | 04/09/2007 9:27 AM |
| What about good old Elminster + Archmage or Archmage x2 + Xeph?
Hill Giant Chieftain, Hill Giant Barbarian, Ogre x2
Vlaakith, Githyanki Dragon Knight, Orc Wardrummer, Warrior Skeleton
Hezrou, Vrock, Bugbear Champion of Erythnul, Dark Talon Champion
| | "Before God we are all equally wise - and equally foolish." - Albert Einstein Champion of Myopic Half-Orcs Winner, WBC X | |
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jacksonm Warlord
 5560 Posts



 River City
 | | 04/09/2007 2:00 PM |
| | I won a 200 point sanctioned tournament and took out our best local player with this fantastic foursome. Fire Giant Forgepriest, 2 Redspawn Fire Belchers, and a Hobgoblin Talon of Tiamat. | | | |
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Sirohk Commander
 3938 Posts



 USA
 | | 04/09/2007 3:35 PM |
| How about:  Lord Soth 98 Beholder Lich 64 Chraal 35 Warrior Skeleton 3  200 well spent points.  Good luck killing this warband. Abysmal Blast, Wariior Skeleton to traget Chraal BW on Invisible warbands. Beholder Lich on 6 or more can Heal up Soth.Â

 | | Sirohk, the Bard of Heartstone Knight of the Rahshasa's And Crusader of the Zakya, Ak'chazar, Naztharune, and Naityan Rakshasa's | |
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alepulp Underboss
 1540 Posts



 Manchester, England
 | | 04/09/2007 4:44 PM |
| I like this one:
Fire Giant(117),Beholder(83)
A nice blocker  | | One of these days WoTC will update their tournament page when I'm in the top 5... they never seem to do when I'm in that bracket :( My Collection My DDM Website And My Trade Refs Be a part of the UK DDM Forum
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Temysry Sergeant
 518 Posts




 | | 04/10/2007 4:25 AM |
| Lord Soth Steel Predator Greenspawn Sneak Map: Hellspike
CR6 gives you a good shot at map and side. Using the forward start area, you can use the Steel Predator for a first turn sonic cone on the opposing warband followed up by the abyssal blast from Soth.  | | A Proud Gelatinous Dude
www.gelatinousdudes.com
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froffenhoffer Sergeant
 702 Posts




 | | 04/10/2007 5:37 AM |
| FGFP Cad collector fodder
Or.
War trollx2 gauth for paralyze kobold miner kobold sorcerer. | | Champion of Wildshaped druid in with natural spell!
Thus said froffenhoffer
The Official through the heart, and im to blame archer. | |
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iluvxtina Underboss
 1501 Posts



 Spain
 | | 04/10/2007 1:09 PM |
| | Only an example:beholder-soth.Low activations and a high victory ratio.Not a tier 1 warband but very low activations and competitive | | LOVE THIS GIRL | |
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 Vrecknidj Warlord
 10493 Posts


 United States
 | | 04/11/2007 7:08 AM |
| Beholder plus Lord Soth qualified in a few places, if I recall--two years ago. And, I know that it was a powerful spoiler band back then. It was awfully hard to kill Soth at the time because there wasn't much that could do enough damage fast enough to thwart the Beholder's ability to heal him. This was back in the days of 12-activation bands, so it wasn't uncommon to see a huge pile of fodder get wasted by the abyssal blast, and that evened things up. And, it was back in the days of tiles, so it wasn't too hard to get excellent placement and make the Beholder that much harder to get to.
Dave | | Knowledge Arcana editor issues 5-9, Phoenix Lore Magazine editor, assistant editor for Rite Publishing; My Trade Thread and My Reference Thread; Winner of WBC IV, IX and XIII; Rule #0: bshugg is always right! | |
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 Vrecknidj Warlord
 10493 Posts


 United States
 | | 04/11/2007 7:11 AM |
| Last night, I was surprised that this band did as well as it did:
Solar Couatl Arcane Ballista Timber Wolf map: Dragondown Grotto
The Ballista took out a Black Dragon in a single hit (35 damage + 10 fire + failed morale check). The snake's swiftness put another one at 45 (passed morale). The Solar took a shot at a 95-hp Werewolf Lord (thanks to the T-Wolf) with the Slayer Arrow and the WWL failed. So, that was basically game.
On Hellspike, it would have been a different story, I think. But, with Commander 5, the Solar band is reasonably likely to win its map and that screws the Triple Black band (and hurts UltroForge as well--though the Dragonmark can make the FGFP immune to the cold bolt and that helps a lot; still, 35 damage a pop is nothing to laugh at).
Dave | | Knowledge Arcana editor issues 5-9, Phoenix Lore Magazine editor, assistant editor for Rite Publishing; My Trade Thread and My Reference Thread; Winner of WBC IV, IX and XIII; Rule #0: bshugg is always right! | |
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Dordledum Commander
 3463 Posts



 Netherlands
 | | 04/11/2007 9:11 AM |
| Posted By Vrecknidj on 04/11/2007 7:11 AM Last night, I was surprised that this band did as well as it did:
Solar Couatl Arcane Ballista Timber Wolf map: Dragondown Grotto
The Ballista took out a Black Dragon in a single hit (35 damage + 10 fire + failed morale check). The snake's swiftness put another one at 45 (passed morale). The Solar took a shot at a 95-hp Werewolf Lord (thanks to the T-Wolf) with the Slayer Arrow and the WWL failed. So, that was basically game.
On Hellspike, it would have been a different story, I think. But, with Commander 5, the Solar band is reasonably likely to win its map and that screws the Triple Black band (and hurts UltroForge as well--though the Dragonmark can make the FGFP immune to the cold bolt and that helps a lot; still, 35 damage a pop is nothing to laugh at).
Dave Couatl +Â Arcane ballista on Dragondown Grotto. If my opponent plays it, I'd give up once map init is lost.
D.
| | Member of the Bearded Devils Champion of the Huge Spider (WotDQ 46/60), A New Umber Hulk (DoDe 57/60), and the Orog Fighter! | |
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Valter Skirmisher
 28 Posts


 Berlin, Germany
 | | 04/14/2007 11:57 AM |
| Give up? Why would you do that? None of the pieces has Blindsight, so conceal can do wonders... Forest squares also can not be shot at, if not adjacent to.
Thanks for reading, Valter. | | | |
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 Vrecknidj Warlord
 10493 Posts


 United States
 | | 04/14/2007 12:02 PM |
| Posted By Valter on 04/14/2007 11:57 AM Give up? Why would you do that? I'm pretty sure he's just referring to his odds. And, admittedly, they're pretty bad in that case (well, I have a hunch what he's playing is why I say that).None of the pieces has Blindsight, so conceal can do wonders... Forest squares also can not be shot at, if not adjacent to.
That's not true.
The Forest Terrain clarifications say:
forest: (terrain) Forest squares are considered difficult terrain. Forest provides cover against ranged attacks. A creature in a forest square has cover against melee attacks unless the attacker is adjacent to a nonforest square in the creature's space. (Reminder: Melee Reach attacks count as ranged attacks for purposes of all cover rules, including these.) Line of sight (but not line of effect) is blocked if the line touches a corner of a forest square or 2 edges of the same forest square. A creature can still trace line of sight to creatures and squares in its own space as well as to adjacent creatures and squares. Additional Forest clarifications: Blindsight does not allow a creature to see through forest. The Blindsight glossary definition lists the things that it counters, and neither Forest terrain nor the effects of Forest terrain are among those things. Against ranged attacks and Melee Reach attacks, a large or larger creature always gets cover from forest terrain when it's in at least one square of forest terrain. Against non-Melee Reach melee attacks, a large or larger creature always gets cover when it is entirely in forest. However, a large or larger creature is only partially in forest gets cover only if the attacker isn't adjacent to a nonforest square in the creature's space. If forest gives a creature cover versus all adjacent enemies' melee attacks, that creature can move without provoking AoOs, can make ranged attacks, and can cast non-touch spells even if it is threatened by those enemies.
Dave
| | Knowledge Arcana editor issues 5-9, Phoenix Lore Magazine editor, assistant editor for Rite Publishing; My Trade Thread and My Reference Thread; Winner of WBC IV, IX and XIII; Rule #0: bshugg is always right! | |
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Valter Skirmisher
 28 Posts


 Berlin, Germany
 | | 04/14/2007 12:33 PM |
| OK, but Guy himself answered at least four posts about forest (they are all in his archived section, somewhere on page 26 and further) and said as much:
You can not shoot out or into a forest square if your (medium sized or smaller) mini is not adjacent to the one (also medium sized or smaller) you are shooting at.
That is just mine practical interpretation of the whole forest terrain clarification.
Of course I have no idea what warband the previous poster is playing, but I play only medium or smaller sized minis - so the "cover from forest and large creatures" section is something I forgot to say since I never use it for myself (the opponent does, naturally).
With conceal I meant pieces that inherently have it, like Duergar Champion and the like.
Valter.
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 Vrecknidj Warlord
 10493 Posts


 United States
 | | 04/14/2007 1:54 PM |
| Posted By Valter on 04/14/2007 12:33 PM You can not shoot out or into a forest square if your (medium sized or smaller) mini is not adjacent to the one (also medium sized or smaller) you are shooting at. Yikes! That looks like a invalidation of the ruling that's in the latest FAQ. My own best guess is that a judge at an event would look at the two rulings and go with the more recent one.
Dave | | Knowledge Arcana editor issues 5-9, Phoenix Lore Magazine editor, assistant editor for Rite Publishing; My Trade Thread and My Reference Thread; Winner of WBC IV, IX and XIII; Rule #0: bshugg is always right! | |
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Valter Skirmisher
 28 Posts


 Berlin, Germany
 | | 04/15/2007 12:55 AM |
| Hi,
The thing was (and it hasn't changed since then - I just didn't get it right) that a mini can't shoot at anything that it doesn't have line of sight to. The (for me and my buddies - hard to understand) sentence in the forest clarification about lines touching corners and sides says just that (LoS is not "Line 12)":
If one medium sized (or smaller) mini sits in a forest square and there are no adjacent creatures to it, there is no LoS originating to or from it (that square) because a line would surely touch a corner of a forest square (reply to CarnivalKid on 10-29-2006, the only one I have printed on paper).
It is not just my interpretation because the post was dated somewhere in october 2006 and the forest clarification was the same then. Guy also elaborated specific examples:
Ballista sits entirely in forest and a Hill Giant Barbarian is adjacent to it (no matter if also in forest or out) - the ballista can shoot at the adjacent HGB because it has cover from it. It couldn't shoot at all if there were no adjacent creatures because there would be no LoS to or from it (it sits entirely in forest).
A diagram where a medium sized archer creature sits in a forest square and wants to shoot someone outside and not adjacent. Guy said it can't because there is no LOS between them. The archer creature in forest needs to be adjacent to an enemy to shoot it (or step out of the forest).
There were at least three similar posts where someone asked almost the same question and the answer was always NO.
If the latter ballista were to be partially in forest (with, say 1 square not in) it could shoot out at anything it has a LoS from that free corner. It could also be shot at (with +4 AC because the other 3 forest squares would provide cover).
I will try and find the posts again and print them ALL out since there seems to be quite an ambiguity originating from the forest "clarification".
Me and my buddies played forest up to two weeks ago like the following: A (medium sized or smaller) creature in an outer forest square has LoS from the outer corners of the square and other creatures have LoS to it in a similar manner. It has cover (melee and ranged). If the creature sits in "deep forest" (one square deeper in, or in a odd forest square surrounded by other forest quares)Â then no-one has LoS to it and it has no LoS.
The way it is now completely changes how an Archmage and ranged bands are to be played on such maps.
Thanks for reading, Valter.
Later edit: in the Wizards official DnD minis forum under "Guy's rulings archive" under page 11 anyone can see for themselves what he said. There are three posts that explain the ambiguity quite clearly. You have to activate the "show threads older than 30 days" option in "My Profile" to see them. | | | |
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