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gollumullog
Skirmisher
7 Posts
    
 | | 04/20/2008 8:29 PM |  Alert | Do you have line of sight out of an inner corner of forest?
Example:
C is clear
F is forest
f is Forest with the attacker
d is defender
dCCCC
CCCCC
CCCCC
CCCCF
CCCFf Â<---
The line of sight rules aren't clear in the rules. can someone clarify, and give me a rules reference where I can find the information.
Cheers
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Pedro
Commander
3442 Posts
Czech Republic
| | 04/21/2008 9:29 AM | Alert | LOS is blocked if it passes through two edges of the same square. p35
If you stand on the "f", or one square from the "f" to the right, you see nothing. | |
C[][illillillilli][lloll]{=========================
1.0 Champion of Sa'Di-Noel, the famous Phalanx Captain General who gives bonuses to his armies in the Phalanx Formation
2.0 Champion of ...
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Dungeon of Dread Called Shot: Cranium Rat
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jelzimme
Skirmisher
4 Posts
| | 04/21/2008 9:30 AM | Alert | My understanding is that since a line can be drawn that passes through only one edge (the upper-left corner) of the forest square (f), line of sight can be established. Of course cover would still apply, but that should be all.
Actual text: "Line of sight (but not line of effect) is blocked if the line passes through two edges of the same forest square"
This is assuming that a corner of a square counts as only one edge, but my understanding is that it's defined as such.
//edit: it appears my assumption is incorrect. I'll go back to lurking
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Pedro
Commander
3442 Posts
Czech Republic
| | 04/21/2008 9:33 AM | Alert | Quicker:)
In the old rules (and I don't remember it changing) jelzimme's way could not be used, because you were not permitted to draw LOD from that one corner. You had to have a side that touches a clear square to see smth.
And welcome to Maxminis, jelzimme! | |
C[][illillillilli][lloll]{=========================
1.0 Champion of Sa'Di-Noel, the famous Phalanx Captain General who gives bonuses to his armies in the Phalanx Formation
2.0 Champion of ...
Next Icon Called Shot: Baldur's Gate pack - Khalid, Jaheira, Minsc (and BOO!), Imoen, Xan, Sarevok...
Dungeon of Dread Called Shot: Cranium Rat
Against the Giants Called Shot: Phoenix
Demonweb Called Shot: Yagnoloth | |
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Vrecknidj
Warlord
9462 Posts
United States
| | 04/21/2008 9:40 AM | Alert | Edit: Significant changes have been published since this was put up.
In this image, Red can see Yellow, but not Blue or White.
Yellow can see everyone. Blue and White can see each other and Yellow.
Does that help?
Edit: Now, things are a little different, see the WotC link below.
Dave
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Knowledge Arcana editor issues 5-9, Phoenix Lore Magazine editor, assistant editor for Rite Publishing;
My Trade Thread and My Reference Thread; Winner of WBC IV, IX and XIII; Rule #0: bshugg is always right! | |
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jelzimme
Skirmisher
4 Posts
| | 04/21/2008 9:56 AM | Alert | Thanks =P
and I remember being annoyed by this very same issue in the old rules.
Interestingly enough, this same issues is currently being debated on the Wizard forums, and as of posting no one official had stepped in with a clerification (however there is a general consensus that this might turn into the next issue clarified in the new Victory Points article). However; most parties involved agree with your response that this ruling hasn't explicitly changed since 1.0.
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gollumullog
Skirmisher
7 Posts
| | 04/21/2008 5:55 PM | Alert | Your clarification makes some sense, but the only way this is true is the following:
A line out from a corner is assumed to pass through all squares adjoining that corner, except from the originating square.
If this isn't the case then red would see blue, because according to the rule for Forests: LOS is blocked if it passes through two edges of the same square. Forest pg 35 .
The two adjacent forest squares are the only possible forest edges the line could pass through.
BUT if this is the case, then shouldn't the rules for DDM follow this assumption in all cases?
Take for example a line: a line in 2.0 now only affects squares it passes through, going through a corner no longer affects all adjacent squares.
The case was the opposite in DDM 1.0.
Because of this I would argue that the ruling about inner forest squares from 1.0 has no bearing on this situation.
Therefore Red should be able to see blue and white. In my opinion this makes sense in "reality", because an attacker would be able to pick his spot where he could see out of the forest, if it was possible to see out (a clear square).
I just want rules clarification, with rules references. If I can't get that, I'd like to see how most judges would rule.
The big problem is there is
no rule for LOS, there is a picture, but no information. A line in
regards to cover and attack is somewhat covered on pg 30.
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Teflon Jeff
Warlord
5329 Posts
Idaho. Yes, we have Gamers in Idaho.
| | 04/22/2008 4:18 PM | Alert | Technically, if it originates at the corner, it doesn't pass through it. That implies it starts on one side, and goes to the other. Originating at a corner doesn't go "through" any edges.
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Official Delegate, Wizards of the Coast
Against The Giants Called Shot: Huge Green Dragon
Icons Called Shot: Gargantuan Prismatic Dragon
"Rejoice, for bad things are about to happen." | |
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gollumullog
Skirmisher
7 Posts
| | 04/22/2008 9:02 PM | Alert | I completely agree. But for some reason this isn't the ruling that people made in 1.0.
That's why I'm advocating that a corner would not cross the sides of a forest square when starting at a corner..
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Vrecknidj
Warlord
9462 Posts
United States
| | 04/23/2008 6:08 AM | Alert | This came up for me, the first time, at a tournament where a friend was playing Lord Soth on King's Road. He had Soth in a square just like the Red one above, and tried blasting pieces out in the open. We had always played that way at home--that there were these special squares on a Forest map where a figure could see out, but couldn't be seen. And, we figured that's one of the advnatages of such a map, and it made slow cannons like Soth playable.
But, we learned we had been playing it incorrectly. And, when our error was pointed out, there was some additional explanation provided by the folks who described how the rule worked. In essense, part of the rule description was (using the image above), "One of the reasons that it's been ruled that Red cannot see Blue, is because Blue cannot see Red, and that's a balance issue."
But, that was simply a consensus kind of description, and nothing official (of course). Nevertheless, I've always found that an easy justification to accept.
That said, should the rule change to "Red can see Blue even though Blue cannot see Red," then it changes the way I play on that map. But, it changes for everyone equally, and so isn't a problem.
Dave | |
Knowledge Arcana editor issues 5-9, Phoenix Lore Magazine editor, assistant editor for Rite Publishing;
My Trade Thread and My Reference Thread; Winner of WBC IV, IX and XIII; Rule #0: bshugg is always right! | |
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Temysry
Sergeant
435 Posts
| | 04/23/2008 8:00 AM | Alert | To expand on what Dave said...
Line of sight is supposed to be reflexive (that is, if A can see B then B can see A) unless abilities like Hide or invisibility are involved. If a line can be drawn through a corner so that A sees B, then B can use the same line to show that he can see A.
From a mathematical point of view, a corner of a square is an end point of both sides which means any line which touches a corner is crossing both sides of the same square. This blocks LOS from a technical standpoint even without the proviso regarding corners we had in 1.0   | |
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www.gelatinousdudes.com
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Dordledum
Commander
2937 Posts
Netherlands
| | 04/24/2008 7:51 AM | Alert | Posted By Temysry on 04/23/2008 8:00 AM To expand on what Dave said...
Line of sight is supposed to be reflexive (that is, if A can see B then B can see A) unless abilities like Hide or invisibility are involved. If a line can be drawn through a corner so that A sees B, then B can use the same line to show that he can see A.
From a mathematical point of view, a corner of a square is an end point of both sides which means any line which touches a corner is crossing both sides of the same square. This blocks LOS from a technical standpoint even without the proviso regarding corners we had in 1.0  Â
thanks, I like how you put it in terms i can get my head around.
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Champion of the Huge Spider (WotDQ 46/60), A New Umber Hulk (DoDe 57/60), and Hardcopy Printed DDM 2.0 Stat-Cards for all Minis!
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Teflon Jeff
Warlord
5329 Posts
Idaho. Yes, we have Gamers in Idaho.
| | 04/24/2008 1:58 PM | Alert | Here's a great resource.
Next time, don't miss the forest for the trees.
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mi/20080424a
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Official Delegate, Wizards of the Coast
Against The Giants Called Shot: Huge Green Dragon
Icons Called Shot: Gargantuan Prismatic Dragon
"Rejoice, for bad things are about to happen." | |
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Vrecknidj
Warlord
9462 Posts
United States
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Lord_rock
Underboss
1247 Posts
Portland OR
| | 04/24/2008 8:14 PM | Alert | ranged continues to become stronger... And stronger... And stronger...
So... Kua toa now get an extra +2 Att when bolting things that can't see it? That handles a lot of complaints! Still targets fort so no cover bonus... Hmmm...
Do the slow figures at least get conceal 11 if the kua toa can't see them??? This would make it feel like a knife stab instead of a shotgun blast when you lose map to that champion 6-7...
I'm liking very few of the newest round of erratas... | |
Rock Bottom Pricing:
Arcane Archer 30, Centaur Hero 67, Human Cleric of Bane 25, Gold Champion 34, Death Knight 52, Goblin Blackblade 9, Silentwolf Goblin 7, Orc Raider 10, Dwarf axefighter 9, Healer 9, Thaskor 65, Aspect of Demogorgon 71, Ogre 9, Fire Giant 79, Human Wanderer 7, Drunken Master 18, Barghest 12, Longstider Barbarian 27, Longtooth Barbarian 22, Frost Giant 76, Ravenous Vampire 42, Large Earth Elemental: priceless | |
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Lord_rock
Underboss
1247 Posts
Portland OR
| | 04/24/2008 10:38 PM | Alert | nevermind... Answered my own Q...
Yes KT get an additional +2 to att if they can see you and you can't see them thanx to forest errata... Because +23 wasn't enough yet right?
No conceal for forest... Or smoke as conceal only works on ranged and melee!!!
No cover bonus to ac because KT's lightening bolts target def fort!!!
So, Kua Toa Whips can now blindly hit you from 18-20 squares away at +23 (if there are seven properly positioned) for 20dmg with no fear of retaliation and you get no cover bonus...
-or-
They can blast you from the same # of squares away at up to +25 with no fear of ranged retaliation and likely with getting a cover bonus of their own since it is probably a ranged or def/reflex att...
Yep... I was hoping they would make the Kua-toa whips stronger with every errata...
WOW wotc's... Wow... | |
Rock Bottom Pricing:
Arcane Archer 30, Centaur Hero 67, Human Cleric of Bane 25, Gold Champion 34, Death Knight 52, Goblin Blackblade 9, Silentwolf Goblin 7, Orc Raider 10, Dwarf axefighter 9, Healer 9, Thaskor 65, Aspect of Demogorgon 71, Ogre 9, Fire Giant 79, Human Wanderer 7, Drunken Master 18, Barghest 12, Longstider Barbarian 27, Longtooth Barbarian 22, Frost Giant 76, Ravenous Vampire 42, Large Earth Elemental: priceless | |
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