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Vrecknidj
Warlord
9462 Posts
    
United States
 | | 04/21/2008 9:56 AM |  Alert | So, now's the time to figure out how to beat seven Kuo-Toa Whips.
Consider each of the following. These bands are all pretty zany, but they reflect a style of thinking that might lead us in the right direction.
Berserk Farmers
Berserk Flesh Golem x4
Farmer x4
The Resist 5 All really helps the Golems against the Whips. This means that the Kuo-Toas need 6 lightning bolts to bring down one Golem, and the Golems do 30 damage on a punch, killing a Whip every other hit. Good luck figuring out how to win with this band against some of the other stuff in the field though.
Undead Lightning
Mind Flayer Lich
Kuo-Toa Whip x5
Darkmantle x2
Fight lightning with lightning, I always say. This gives you a chance to immobilize, confuse, or otherwise mess with your opponent, and may give you just enough of an edge to carry the day. Actually, I think this band is better against the field generally, and maybe not as good against Kuo-Toa x7.
Eternal Blasts
Eternal Blade
Cerebrilith
Merchant Guard
Wild Mage x2
Farmer x5
The Cerebtilith is immune to lightning, so it should survive the entire match. And, if you can boost both Wild Mages and the Cerebrilith before you start losing pieces, your damage output potential per round against Kuo-Toas is so high that you should mop the floor with them. Again, this may not carry the day against other bands in the meta. But, we've already seen how effective two Wild Mages with an Eternal Blade can be.
Eternal Crocs
Eternal Blade
Militia Archer x2
Visejaw Crocodile x4
Merchant Guard x2
Kobold Archer
The Visejaws are probably going to survive three blasts (65 is the magic number against 20-damage attacks). And, since they can be easily buffed up to +17 (40), they're going to be eating Kuo-Toa that have been hit with an arrow (which shouldn't be very hard to pull off). If you hit a Kuo-Toa with any of your archers, the Visejaw finishes the deed with a single hit (counting in all the plusses, otherwise, two arrows). Either way, you're losing 24 points per Croc, he's losing 25 points per Kuo-Toa, and once he's down to very few Kuo-Toa, you're golden. The problem will be your speed, but, you might be able to pull it off.
Generally, of course, the Eternal Blade is the champion of choice against Kuo-Toa Whip bands because the bonus damage is being applied to virtually every member of that band. That said, this means that if you are playing an Eternal Blade band, you have to worry about facing a Mind Flayer Lich band that will shut down that champion power. So, in addition to being able to handle the one kind of opponent, you'll have to be able to handle the other.
Dave
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Knowledge Arcana editor issues 5-9, Phoenix Lore Magazine editor, assistant editor for Rite Publishing;
My Trade Thread and My Reference Thread; Winner of WBC IV, IX and XIII; Rule #0: bshugg is always right! | |
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djtool
Sergeant
570 Posts
Crystal MN, USA
| | 04/21/2008 10:34 AM | Alert | I would say defeating multi whip falls down into a couple different catagories.
One is the capability to do 50 hitpoints worth of close attack damage in 2 or less activations. The closer the threat ranges is to 20 spaces the better.
Another is the capability to do 50 hitpoints of damage with 2 melee attacks with a threat ranged of 20 spaces.
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Pedro
Commander
3442 Posts
Czech Republic
| | 04/21/2008 10:37 AM | Alert | fodder being kuo toa x 2 and a skellie...maybe a darkmantle
before init in second round you can use blade's power for the second time
I like the mage cereb one, but we need somethin at least a little good immune to lightning.
Never played against frogs beforre. | |
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Vrecknidj
Warlord
9462 Posts
United States
| | 04/21/2008 11:32 AM | Alert | An Astral Stalker, shooting a throat dart from a hidden spot, buffed by an Eternal Blade, does 25 damage on a hit. Two such Astral Stalkers, then, could drop a Kuo-Toa in a round. Of course, that's 144 points to take out a 25-point figure at a rate of one a round. Perhaps not the most efficient.
Four Kobold Archers, none of which had been attacked, could drop a Kuo-Toa from range too.
Dave | |
Knowledge Arcana editor issues 5-9, Phoenix Lore Magazine editor, assistant editor for Rite Publishing;
My Trade Thread and My Reference Thread; Winner of WBC IV, IX and XIII; Rule #0: bshugg is always right! | |
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mege
Skirmisher
41 Posts
| | 04/21/2008 12:07 PM | Alert | Large Gold Dragon.
Big Bird vs Kermit. | | | |
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Lord_rock
Underboss
1247 Posts
Portland OR
| | 04/21/2008 2:22 PM | Alert | One of the major problems vs. Whips is speed... If you aren't getting to them round 2 your toast.
They also have absolute mastery of targetting... On a map like hellspike or kings road they don't have to see a thing and can kill you while almost every other figure has to at least be able to see you (or the square next to you)... I'm in huge favor of an errata to the line errata... If you're a speed 4-5 maybe even 6 band and they pull kings road you're toast. It's a worse auto loss than ranged 1.0 on grotto.
Lady vol and a deathknight had their way with them at our qualifier but even they went 1-1 against them.
Play fast figs, load up on bodyguards, hope for the best...
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xuthal
Sergeant
621 Posts
Boulder, CO
| | 04/21/2008 2:29 PM | Alert | Just come to terms with the fact that we'll all eventually become thralls of Blipdoolpoolp, every one of us.
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Barry
Skirmisher
14 Posts
| | 04/21/2008 3:01 PM | Alert | Beating whips is a either a choice of extreme patience or extreme aggressiveness. There is really no middle ground. Eblade/wulfgar bands stand a good chance with their melee capabliities. Warhorse will help get them into the battle and also key lines on Wulf will help. Good fodder is also a option. Tons of BGs to soak up those Round 2 blasts to take the edge off. Patience with a wildmage band is also good. On the map of choice Kings Road, there is little protection for the tile grabbers. Simply blast the ghoul/skele and then get a farmer into a VP at the end of the round. Carefully done, you should be able to get the score to 8-6 plus victory points. This will force the Whips to come out of cover into LOS for your wild mage.
Play hard and fast or dont leave the start areas :)
Barry
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Mathrim_lina
Skirmisher
3 Posts
| | 04/21/2008 4:00 PM | Alert | I played 6 Kuo-Tao at the Montreal Qualifier. When I practiced. I tried to play with 8 Kuo-Tao but was always beaten by a warband with 3 or more merchant guards (for example, EB, Wulfgar, DolDorn and 5 merchant Guard). That's why I added Rot Scarab Swarm. Now i think i should have switch one swarm for a Delver. The MG with the +4 def of EB can sometimes take 2 complete bolt if one hit miss with the first bolt (it happens often during the first round when the bonus are lower because the KTW are not in place).
The other warband that was very good against KTW was 4 Arcadians Avengers, 1 Cleric of Pelor and a couple of Merchant Guard (if you add a delver sergeant to that mix, at the beggining of round 2 you can kill 3 kuo-tao and heal some damage), even on Hellspike.
Hit fast hit hard is the best way. One line from Wulfgar at the beggining of the second round following the first round line of the CCD and it's easy for the KTW to lose 2 or 3 KTW. | | | |
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Teflon Jeff
Warlord
5329 Posts
Idaho. Yes, we have Gamers in Idaho.
| | 04/22/2008 4:23 PM | Alert | I think I'll be playing Multi-whips if I go.
Seems like a good one to take advantage of opponents placement mistakes.
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Vrecknidj
Warlord
9462 Posts
United States
| | 04/23/2008 6:12 AM | Alert | Speed kills. And, of course, there's more than one way to get that speed (F6 is often as good as Speed 7, for instance--sometimes better). But, getting up to the Kuo-Toa and taking them out is very important, as pointed out above.
I'm actually liking the Arcadian Avenger band's chances. With Elude Chance, Dual Swords, and a 25-damage attack, it's possible, with the Delver Sergeant, to drop three Kuo-Toa on a single phase. And, at 65 hp each, generally you aren't going to lose any of your Avengers in a similar, three-activation-phase assault from your opponent if he goes first. And, since you can heal and he can't, excellent placement and a favorable initiative puts the AA band ahead.
Dave | |
Knowledge Arcana editor issues 5-9, Phoenix Lore Magazine editor, assistant editor for Rite Publishing;
My Trade Thread and My Reference Thread; Winner of WBC IV, IX and XIII; Rule #0: bshugg is always right! | |
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Barry
Skirmisher
14 Posts
| | 04/23/2008 7:04 AM | Alert | I think your off a bit here, Dave. While those facts are true about the AA band, most of that wont come into play. First the AA is speed 6, so you at best have a charge on a Whip or your eating lines early. You need to sacrifice a figure somewhere for the wrath and the CoP has to be within 5 for the +5 damage. This whole band concept requires you to get up close and personal. The round that you charge or engage, the Whips are going to get free shots on you before you can activate the Dual swords. At 60 hp per AA youll lose AA's fast to the bolts particularly with 2 or 3 in each line attack. Overall I doubt the AA band will stand much of a chance unless it wins map and takes something like Hailstorm Tower with all its hard cover protection.
Barry | | | |
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Meljor
Skirmisher
24 Posts
| | 04/23/2008 7:57 AM | Alert | One actually might consider using an Oni or three to beat the whips. Go gaseous early then base and beat the friggin crap out of those little frogs. Plus with multiple Oni's you can hopefully get that combat advantage and start killing them just as quickly and they have enough points to last a round or 2 thus being able to kill at least 2 or 4 froggie's. Then if you throw in 2 EB's you have a mighty good band that can dish out a crap load of damage! Not sure how it would do against anything else though.
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bshugg
Underboss
1707 Posts
| | 04/23/2008 8:11 AM | Alert | I don't think AA's have much of a chance either. They just aren't fast enough to engage and keep enough HP to stick around, nor do they do enough damage to finish off the Whips fast enough. Maybe a version of the band with 6 AA's and some Merchant Guards, but the standard 4 + pelor is going to get chewed up.
The bands I think that can beat Whips on its own map:
3 Large Shadows + delver - This game will be very close though.
Triple Wild Mage + EB + bodyguards- Fish Hate + conditions make the Mages fairly strong and they can spread out on the back edge of the map to prevent lines from double hitting.
Um not sure what else
Bands that can beat them on their map choice:
Double mount (wulfgar + EB) on heavy blocking map
Heavy Ranged (cliffwalks + Wild Mages) on Peragrine or very open map
Quad Digester with heavy blocking map.
Maybe some others.
The Fish or lines definatly need to be fixed. | |
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Lord_rock
Underboss
1247 Posts
Portland OR
| | 04/23/2008 8:45 AM | Alert | it's not the frog/fish... It's the lines... Simply take out that last part of the errata that says "you do not have to see a square to target it" and it will fix a lot of problems and keep both lines and speed 4-5-6 bands viable as well as making some maps less of an auto loss... I don't see a single downside to this change ...
Well, I guess the downside is people won't win as much with 6-7 kua-toa... I can live with that. | |
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Vrecknidj
Warlord
9462 Posts
United States
| | 04/23/2008 10:28 AM | Alert | Ah, perhaps you're right. AA might not be able to do it as they'll be too wounded on the way in.
Hmm.
The problem with bands that can beat Kuo-Toa x7 is that I'm not so sure they can handle the rest of the meta. A pile of buffed Wild Mages is nice, but the attack rolls leave something to be desired against some pieces, and the total hit points is too low. Triple Shadow can work, of course, and is at least somewhat viable against other bands...
Edit: Just thought of another way to beat them. Wait for the Couatl to get statted.
Dave | |
Knowledge Arcana editor issues 5-9, Phoenix Lore Magazine editor, assistant editor for Rite Publishing;
My Trade Thread and My Reference Thread; Winner of WBC IV, IX and XIII; Rule #0: bshugg is always right! | |
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Barry
Skirmisher
14 Posts
| | 04/23/2008 4:10 PM | Alert | Well heres hoping a twist of a familiar band might work. Wont say what it is until after Sat though since im hoping Kuo Tuo fever will sweep the MD area and I can face alot of them.
Barry | | | |
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SkYlyn3
Warrior
221 Posts
Williamsburg, Virginia
| | 04/23/2008 4:14 PM | Alert | | Lol, the Couatl will be statted sometime next century. But, at that time, we'll have Kord, Couatl, Warforged Bodyguard, Cleric of Dol Arrah, hell, the only piece we'd be missing is the Crow Shaman. I would say wait for the Dragonmark Heir of Deneith. It + Fire Giant Forgepriest should do the trick. But, as it stands, with such a shallow pool of Minis to choose from, they really need to errata the line rule. I mean, how does it translate flavor-wise? How are they casting at squares they don't see, and more importantly, why? | |
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Vrecknidj
Warlord
9462 Posts
United States
| | 04/23/2008 7:01 PM | Alert | Posted By SkYlyn3 on 04/23/2008 4:14 PM
Lol, the Couatl will be statted sometime next century.
Sooner than that, it's an All Star. It'll be legal by GenCon.
Dave
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Knowledge Arcana editor issues 5-9, Phoenix Lore Magazine editor, assistant editor for Rite Publishing;
My Trade Thread and My Reference Thread; Winner of WBC IV, IX and XIII; Rule #0: bshugg is always right! | |
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SkYlyn3
Warrior
221 Posts
Williamsburg, Virginia
| | 04/23/2008 11:21 PM | Alert | | This is also true. I just don't see an efficient beater such as the FGFP in the format as of yet. Maybe someone else does? And until that occurs, bands like 7x Whip (we really should name this stupid thing, like Cool Whip, or Devo) are going to be really good. | |
Champion of Mohrg
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Llarbal
Skirmisher
25 Posts
| | 04/24/2008 3:03 AM | Alert | How about Fish'n'Whips?
:-)
Named after a British delicacy...
on a more serious note:
I played against 7 Whips 2 days ago and used the large gold with 6 elf archers and a militia Sergeant. We both made some pretty stupid mistakes so I won't say it was indicative of how such a match should turn out, but the idea was very straightforward and worked: shoot a couple of Fish for 10 damage with the elf archers before they're lined and when a couple of fish are close enough together breath on them for 40 damage. taking out 3 out of seven takes a big bite out of the warband. Sure they can still do a lot of damage, but the opponent has just lost 75 points of creatures. Against the large gold this is problematic. He can now at his leisure wander over and kill 1 Kuo toa a round (with two attacks). killing 4 out of 7 severely limits their attackbonuses and damage.
But, this was just one way the game played out. I can imagine other, more careful strategies changing the possible outcome, although the 6 archers certainly put some pressure on the Whips to close fast | | | |
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Pedro
Commander
3442 Posts
Czech Republic
| | 04/26/2008 10:58 AM | Alert | Posted By Llarbal on 04/24/2008 3:03 AM
How about Fish'n'Whips?
Whips'n'Chips? :-)
What's the map of choice? Evermelt? Hellspike? | |
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2.0 Champion of ...
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Thenameless
Warlord
7965 Posts
The Fortress of Solitude
| | 04/27/2008 2:24 AM | Alert | Posted By Barry on 04/23/2008 4:10 PM
Well heres hoping a twist of a familiar band might work. Wont say what it is until after Sat though since im hoping Kuo Tuo fever will sweep the MD area and I can face alot of them.
Barry
I hope that this is a ploy at mis-direction. Be careful, a lot of people read these boards. Hope your concept works. | |
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Sirohk
Commander
3544 Posts
USA
| | 04/27/2008 4:40 AM | Alert | Posted By Barry on 04/23/2008 4:10 PM
Well heres hoping a twist of a familiar band might work. Wont say what it is until after Sat though since im hoping Kuo Tuo fever will sweep the MD area and I can face alot of them.
Barry
How did your "twist of a familiar band" do against Whips?Â
We're all itching to know.Â
Thx.Â
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Kevizoid
Warrior
261 Posts
Southern California
| | 04/27/2008 8:26 PM | Alert | If you want to beat whips while doing well against the field just play the EB mounted fig builds.
If you read this soon Dave, can you hop on Vassal? | |
SoCal Colluder | |
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Bert the Troll
Commander
3595 Posts
Adelaide
| | 04/27/2008 8:43 PM | Alert | Posted By xuthal on 04/21/2008 2:29 PM
Just come to terms with the fact that we'll all eventually become thralls of Blipdoolpoolp, every one of us.
SGB
I for one, welcome our new green masters | |
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Teflon Jeff
Warlord
5329 Posts
Idaho. Yes, we have Gamers in Idaho.
| | 04/28/2008 9:30 AM | Alert | Posted By Bert the Troll on 04/27/2008 8:43 PM Posted By xuthal on 04/21/2008 2:29 PM
Just come to terms with the fact that we'll all eventually become thralls of Blipdoolpoolp, every one of us.
SGB I for one, welcome our new green masters
Bert's already jockeying for a good postion in the heirarchy. Smart man.
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Reny15
Skirmisher
24 Posts
Michigan
| | 04/28/2008 11:37 AM | Alert | | Wait until the virtuous chargers are re-statted. Imune lightning and confusion | |
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iluvxtina
Underboss
1388 Posts
Spain
| | 04/28/2008 11:45 AM | Alert | | I do not find kuo-toa warbands so powerful like you said.In fact,nobody here play it.I find very easy to beat it with a dual stalker/driders warband (much more efficient ranged menace).I find much more dangerous multi wild mages onto horses and dual MFL. | |
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Vrecknidj
Warlord
9462 Posts
United States
| | 04/28/2008 1:17 PM | Alert | Posted By Kevizoid on 04/27/2008 8:26 PM
If you want to beat whips while doing well against the field just play the EB mounted fig builds.
If you read this soon Dave, can you hop on Vassal? On Vassal now (4:15 est, Monday).
Sorry I wasn't around earlier.
Dave
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Knowledge Arcana editor issues 5-9, Phoenix Lore Magazine editor, assistant editor for Rite Publishing;
My Trade Thread and My Reference Thread; Winner of WBC IV, IX and XIII; Rule #0: bshugg is always right! | |
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Kevizoid
Warrior
261 Posts
Southern California
| | 04/28/2008 3:21 PM | Alert | Posted By Reny15 on 04/28/2008 11:37 AM
Wait until the virtuous chargers are re-statted. Imune lightning and confusion
Uhh what? Where the heck do you pull immune lightning from? They didn't even have it in 1.0. Confusion isni't guarteed either, because nothing else immune confusion has had it carried over into 2.0. Hopefully they will have that at least. | |
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Vrecknidj
Warlord
9462 Posts
United States
| | 04/28/2008 5:04 PM | Alert | Immune lightning, poison, fire, stun and confusion; +30 melee attack for 50 damage; heal allies within 15 squares for 20 points per turn; AC 45; Resist All 10
They're gonna be SWEET!
Dave | |
Knowledge Arcana editor issues 5-9, Phoenix Lore Magazine editor, assistant editor for Rite Publishing;
My Trade Thread and My Reference Thread; Winner of WBC IV, IX and XIII; Rule #0: bshugg is always right! | |
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Dordledum
Commander
2937 Posts
Netherlands
| | 04/29/2008 2:50 AM | Alert | Posted By Vrecknidj on 04/28/2008 5:04 PM
Immune lightning, poison, fire, stun and confusion; +30 melee attack for 50 damage; heal allies within 15 squares for 20 points per turn; AC 45; Resist All 10
They're gonna be SWEET!
Dave
lol!!
D. | |
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Vrecknidj
Warlord
9462 Posts
United States
| | 04/29/2008 6:48 AM | Alert | So, I've never actually had to face 7 Whips at a tournament yet, and last night, while helping a friend practice for a qualifier, I ran the band (plus Delver Sergeant and Boneshard Skeleton) so he could get a feel for it. He wanted to try something new. He played...
Eternal Blade
Shadowbane Inquisitor x2
Warhorse x2
Wild Mage
Fodder
We played on Hellspike (between us, we have one King's Road map, and he forgot it). I took him apart. It's amazing how quickly the Kuo-Toa band can render another band ineffective.
But, what I did notice, was that a Wild Mage souped up with the Eternal Blade's +2/+10 against Kuo-Toa, is really effective. One of the drawbacks of playing the little froggy-fishies is that you sometimes have to put your figures in compromising positions in order to get a maximally efficient line (including both the geometry and the bonuses on your attack roll). As such, it's possible for a figure with radius or line effects to really fight back hard since they have so few hit points and are relatively easy to hit.
I realize this has been figured out already, and it's one of the reasons why Borderlands has been so effective against Kuo-Toa, but I thought I'd share my comments from practice rather than theory.
Dave | |
Knowledge Arcana editor issues 5-9, Phoenix Lore Magazine editor, assistant editor for Rite Publishing;
My Trade Thread and My Reference Thread; Winner of WBC IV, IX and XIII; Rule #0: bshugg is always right! | |
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Kevizoid
Warrior
261 Posts
Southern California
| | 04/29/2008 8:38 AM | Alert | Dave, you can make it so they can't target more than 2 whips in a line or sigh 1 (which shouldn't be much of a problem on hellspike, unless they want to give you a free wild mage). Whips are a band that will destroy bad opponenets, whether you are good or not (assuming you don't forget line rules, and that there is no cerebrillith or something). However vs people who know how to fight them. I've seen 4 whips die first round before.
The key to beating them is to deteriorate the number of whips as fast as humanly possible. They are a piece build on synergy, and picking apart that synergy really hurts them. | |
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bshugg
Underboss
1707 Posts
| | 04/29/2008 9:32 AM | Alert | | It's the random disinigrate and meteor swarm they just threw in on the 2.0 card that makes me :( | |
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Vrecknidj
Warlord
9462 Posts
United States
| | 04/29/2008 10:08 AM | Alert | Posted By Kevizoid on 04/29/2008 8:38 AM
Dave, you can make it so they can't target more than 2 whips in a line or sigh 1 (which shouldn't be much of a problem on hellspike, unless they want to give you a free wild mage). Having only played the band once, and never having played against it, it doesn't surprise me that this is the case, but I didn't happen to find the best way to play it last night.Whips are a band that will destroy bad opponenets, whether you are good or not (assuming you don't forget line rules, and that there is no cerebrillith or something). However vs people who know how to fight them. I've seen 4 whips die first round before.
The key to beating them is to deteriorate the number of whips as fast as humanly possible. They are a piece build on synergy, and picking apart that synergy really hurts them.
Yes, this I've quickly surmised.
Dave | |
Knowledge Arcana editor issues 5-9, Phoenix Lore Magazine editor, assistant editor for Rite Publishing;
My Trade Thread and My Reference Thread; Winner of WBC IV, IX and XIII; Rule #0: bshugg is always right! | |
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Lord_rock
Underboss
1247 Posts
Portland OR
| | 04/29/2008 10:45 AM | Alert | So what about bands with slow figs? At the qualifier my 2 umberhulks,even with burrow, on kings road had zero chance after map init. Multi dorn? Basically anyone without the warhorses and wild mages...
The nice thing is that this will hopefully be a pretty flashpan band with so few figures out yet... Right now is qualifier season though and they will likely make up a good amount of the total until unhallowed hits.
I hope the wotc's are paying attention though... There are a lot of good line figures in the next few sets that could be even more abusive in multiples. | |
Rock Bottom Pricing:
Arcane Archer 30, Centaur Hero 67, Human Cleric of Bane 25, Gold Champion 34, Death Knight 52, Goblin Blackblade 9, Silentwolf Goblin 7, Orc Raider 10, Dwarf axefighter 9, Healer 9, Thaskor 65, Aspect of Demogorgon 71, Ogre 9, Fire Giant 79, Human Wanderer 7, Drunken Master 18, Barghest 12, Longstider Barbarian 27, Longtooth Barbarian 22, Frost Giant 76, Ravenous Vampire 42, Large Earth Elemental: priceless | |
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tendar
Skirmisher
19 Posts
Phoenix AZ USA
| | 04/29/2008 2:07 PM | Alert | | Try a Bralani and 5 wild mages. You get the range across map and bound to get a 16+ plus roll on one of the early attacks to give a +16 to hit with rest and the frogs never get off the ground. | | | |
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Kevizoid
Warrior
261 Posts
Southern California
| | 04/29/2008 3:03 PM | Alert | I really don't think wildmages are the right way to go about beating whips (alot of whip players run hellspike which pretty much auto loses wtih 5 WM). Unless the wild mages can take out whips very quickly round 1...etc...then they will be ripped apart by lightning bolts.
Wild Mages are great but you need beef in the band as well for them to work consistently. | |
SoCal Colluder | |
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