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| | Author | Messages | |
bshugg
Underboss
1707 Posts
    
 | | 04/27/2008 10:19 AM |  Alert | By the current policy, a qualified player can continue playing in qualifiers until they win 1st place.  However the invites do not hand down to the next unqualified players.  I know this is legal by the floor rules, but this really bothers me a great deal. Since slots don't pass down, and they are only giving slots to the top 2 players, this means 1 less person who is qualified for the championships, and probably even more so, a mini community has one less slot for their local players going to the championships.
As both a player and a judge I have dedicated many, many hours showing off the DDM game and trying to drive people INTO the game.  This type of thing completely sabotages my efforts by driving a rift between play groups, and spoiling the fun of the game. People qualifed on ranking or through previous events shouldn't be able to take slots away from the rest of the community. This is a organized play problem AND a player problem.  It makes me second guess that last weekend I just drove 300 miles (at 3.59 a gallon of gas) plus spent 10+ hours to judge a qualifer because the venue owner said he would have to cancel if I didn't.
WotC: Hand Slots down.  Send 2 sheets of paper as invites to each qualifier and have the organizer send them back in with 2 players names on it.  Plain and simple and stupidly easy to fix.
Players: If you're qualified, decide if its really important for you to steal a slot from someone else before you do it. I salute Mike Pozgay who spent many hours coming to the Ypsi qualifier who went 5-0 then dropped to not rob anyone else of their slot. He even dropped before the top 4 to avoid taking the 3rd/4th place prizes.
[Edited because my example was unintentionally savage to Kevin- Sorry!] | |
Looking for someone to cosponser a midwest DDM event. let me know if your interested!
Check out my brand new blog:
http://bshugg.blogspot.com | |
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Raland
Sergeant
839 Posts
| | 04/27/2008 10:30 AM | Alert | | I'm not sure that's correct BShugg, I think Kevin was 3rd or 4th in his previous tournament. | |
Champion of the Kender
ckissee - "providing TPK's since 2007"
Albert Einstein never once said that if the bees disappeared, "man would have only four years of life left" but the theory is a scary prospect.
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Dordledum
Commander
2937 Posts
Netherlands
| | 04/27/2008 10:48 AM | Alert | Posted By Raland on 04/27/2008 10:30 AM
I'm not sure that's correct BShugg, I think Kevin was 3rd or 4th in his previous tournament.
But didn't he automatically qualify because of last year's results?
D. | |
Champion of the Huge Spider (WotDQ 46/60), A New Umber Hulk (DoDe 57/60), and Hardcopy Printed DDM 2.0 Stat-Cards for all Minis!
Completed: got them all!!! | |
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Raland
Sergeant
839 Posts
| | 04/27/2008 10:55 AM | Alert | | I can't say for sure, I would expect him to be among those that would qualify on DCI ranking. But those invites I do believe move down to others. | |
Champion of the Kender
ckissee - "providing TPK's since 2007"
Albert Einstein never once said that if the bees disappeared, "man would have only four years of life left" but the theory is a scary prospect.
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CoyoteNomad
Sneak
73 Posts
Portland, OR
| | 04/27/2008 12:17 PM | Alert | One thing to keep in mind is that Standard is a brand new format, and everyone's ranking is determined only by events played in after 4/15 of this year. Doing well in one or more qualifiers is the best way right now to ensure that a player is in the top 100. In fact, I will be very surprised if anyone who places in the top 2 at a qualifier and earns an invitation to Gen Con doesn't also end up in the top 100 for the auto invitation. I really think that this season it will work itself out pretty well, and the majority of the players who made top 4 at their qualifier will also be in the top 100.
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Raland
Sergeant
839 Posts
| | 04/27/2008 12:20 PM | Alert | Is that for sure? Cause I was thinking Vintage was the brand new format, and that standard would use the existing rankings. I hadn't seen anything about this before. | |
Champion of the Kender
ckissee - "providing TPK's since 2007"
Albert Einstein never once said that if the bees disappeared, "man would have only four years of life left" but the theory is a scary prospect.
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CoyoteNomad
Sneak
73 Posts
Portland, OR
| | 04/27/2008 1:42 PM | Alert | | Vintage uses the existing rankings. The ratings are up on the wizards site. I was pretty stoked to see myself at 5th in the world after a few of the qualifiers have been run. I probably won't be able to maintain it, but if there were more events run in Oregon, look out. | |
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Vrecknidj
Warlord
9462 Posts
United States
| | 04/27/2008 2:16 PM | Alert | I would be surprised to learn that Kevin took a top spot if he'd already qualified. I'll wait and see the gory details later.
But, my own opinion (independently of whatever did or did not happen this weekend) is that anyone who gains an invitation shouldn't be allowed to play beyond Swiss in a further event. I don't see any problem with there being a rule that says that all the qualifying persons have to drop after Swiss. Of course, someone may deny it, and say "Oh no, I didn't qualify already" and stay in, but that will be grounds for losing the invitation already offered. So, no one would risk it.
I'm all for allowing players to continue to get practice. And I know that this feels like they're hurting other people's chances because the Swiss rounds really, really matter (and losing a couple games to people who already qualified might make you feel like you wouldn't have lost any had they not been there, and that could be the difference between 1st and 7th place, for example, keeping you out of the playoffs).
But, I also wouldn't mind something like this (I keep saying this, and it keeps not happening, so I probably sound like a broken record)...
Invitations distributed as follows:
Events of 4 players: Top 1
Events of 5 to 8 players: Top 2
Events of 9 to 32 players: Top 4
Events of 33+ players: Top 8
Invitations also distributed to top 100 players of record at a certain deadline.
This will probably generate a lot of invitations. So, at the championship, we plan for two flights. Top 4 in each flight are seeded together into a top 8 for the playoff on Sunday.
If each flight is still enormous (128+ players, very doubtful we end up with 256+ invitees), then we go to three or four flights. (If three flights, the top 5 in each move on to the playoffs, and the person with the best overall of all three flights gets a first-round bye. If four flights, we have four top-4 players. In either case, we have 4 rounds instead of 3 on Sunday.)
Dave | |
Knowledge Arcana editor issues 5-9, Phoenix Lore Magazine editor, assistant editor for Rite Publishing;
My Trade Thread and My Reference Thread; Winner of WBC IV, IX and XIII; Rule #0: bshugg is always right! | |
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CoyoteNomad
Sneak
73 Posts
Portland, OR
| | 04/27/2008 2:42 PM | Alert | Posted By Vrecknidj on 04/27/2008 2:16 PM
But, my own opinion (independently of whatever did or did not happen this weekend) is that anyone who gains an invitation shouldn't be allowed to play beyond Swiss in a further event. I don't see any problem with there being a rule that says that all the qualifying persons have to drop after Swiss. Of course, someone may deny it, and say "Oh no, I didn't qualify already" and stay in, but that will be grounds for losing the invitation already offered. So, no one would risk it.
Dave,
What about a person who qualifies but plays in another qualifier to attempt to get the plane ticket? I think it's a completely different scenario if than if someone plays in the finals trying to win than if someone plays in the finals planning to prize split at first place, and if a player gets second at a qualifier, they shouldn't be penalized and not have any more shots at the free ticket.
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CoyoteNomad
Sneak
73 Posts
Portland, OR
| | 04/27/2008 2:43 PM | Alert | | I also really like your idea of the more players at a qualifier, the more people who qualify. That makes a whole lot of sense. | |
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Vrecknidj
Warlord
9462 Posts
United States
| | 04/27/2008 2:46 PM | Alert | More details:
I think Kevin didn't qualify in Arizona. First, I'm pretty sure he didn't end up 1st or 2nd, and, second, I think that there's some concern that with 4 players total, that no one will get an invitation from that event.
Dave | |
Knowledge Arcana editor issues 5-9, Phoenix Lore Magazine editor, assistant editor for Rite Publishing;
My Trade Thread and My Reference Thread; Winner of WBC IV, IX and XIII; Rule #0: bshugg is always right! | |
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Vrecknidj
Warlord
9462 Posts
United States
| | 04/27/2008 2:48 PM | Alert | Posted By CoyoteNomad on 04/27/2008 2:42 PM What about a person who qualifies but plays in another qualifier to attempt to get the plane ticket? I think it's a completely different scenario if than if someone plays in the finals trying to win than if someone plays in the finals planning to prize split at first place, and if a player gets second at a qualifier, they shouldn't be penalized and not have any more shots at the free ticket.
It would be challenging, indeed, to find a way to separate the invitation from the plane ticket.
That's why WotC hires people smarter than I to figure out this stuff.
Dave
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Knowledge Arcana editor issues 5-9, Phoenix Lore Magazine editor, assistant editor for Rite Publishing;
My Trade Thread and My Reference Thread; Winner of WBC IV, IX and XIII; Rule #0: bshugg is always right! | |
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MichaelPozsgay
Skirmisher
1 Posts
| | 04/27/2008 3:09 PM | Alert | | Brad, Kevin actually was not qualified yet, and Sven dropped top four to let Kevin in. Right now it looks like no one will be stealing qualifier spots, but there is a lot of time left. I hope no one steals any qualifier spots, but I wouldn't discredit someone who did, as it is there right to do so. Stealing a qualifier spot just means one less person at GenCon to lose to, so it is a valid thing to do in my opinion. I just would not do it. Also remeber team SoCal was frowned upon for doing this very thing at the qualifier in Arizona last year (Dropping top four to let a unqualified person in). At that qualifier I think three people dropped top four to let Kevin Melstrom with a record of 3-2 , and Darian Stupack with a record of 2-3 in. | | | |
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maijstral
Underboss
2086 Posts
| | 04/27/2008 6:27 PM | Alert | Dave did you know you can swap the plane ticket for gas money? If you drive they will reimburse you for the gas instead of the plane ticket.
I only live a 4 hour drive from Indy and you better believe if I can swap a plane ticket for a couple of tanks of gas then I'm all over that.
Posted By Vrecknidj on 04/27/2008 2:48 PM I always forget about the plane ticket. (Indy is about a 4-hour drive for me, so I always forget it.) It would be challenging, indeed, to find a way to separate the invitation from the plane ticket. That's why WotC hires people smarter than I to figure out this stuff. Dave | |
"You don’t drop a piranha in the kiddie pool and stick around to watch the bubbles."
Trade Reference
Champion of the Psiforged
Vindicated Champion of The Lord of Blades
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Vrecknidj
Warlord
9462 Posts
United States
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Kevizoid
Warrior
261 Posts
Southern California
| | 04/27/2008 7:54 PM | Alert | First off Shuggles, I haven't qualified before this point so it's not nice to use me as your example when you don't have your information checked out.
Anyway you play it out people are never going to be happy. People bitched online when SoCal showed up in other states qualifiers and said we were "stealing" qualifier slots from locals. As if we actually had a qualifier for those years...then when everyone who had got in on rating dropped and someone who was 2-3 got in, people bitched that it was unfair that someone who was 2-3 got to make top 4 when other qualifiers people with beter records didn't even get in.
I also don't appreciate the fact that you call it "stealing" someones slot if you qualified already. You can't steal something from them that isn't theirs. The burden isn't on me, as a player, to get as many people qualified as possible. If qualifying slots was the only prize then sure you could maybe consider it "stealing". But why shoudl I give up my chance to save 500 dollars on a plane ticket so some guy I don't know can get a qualifier slot.
Also with the current invite system. Anyone who is in the top 100 will get an invite. These slots don't pass down, so in effect anyone who say...went 6-0 in a qualifier and didn't drop, *should* be top 100 just based solely on the reset. So really they are just wasting qualifier slots when they get in anyways.
If WotC wanted everyone to get in they'd make it an Open tournament. The point of a qualifier is to simply "qualify". Not to be mean but its a championship. It's "pro level" (top 8 at least is for sure.). So many players just go 0-3 1-3 or something and drop. It happens every single championship. Are these slots worth more than a 500 dollar plane ticket? How do you measure them?
I'd choose to drop top 4 based entirely on who would be getting in if I dropped. Will people I know get in? Will they get in on rating anyways? If so what's the point of me dropping if the slot would be wasted anyways. What if it's the guy I don't like whose in 5th. Shoudl I be villified online for not letting someone I don't like in?
 I do however, think it is lame that only top 2 get qualifying slots. Single elimination is the best way to exaggerate the effects of luck, whereas Swiss limits it somewhat. Qualifier slots aren't "stolen". They are earned, or at least given as gifts ;P. | |
SoCal Colluder | |
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Sirohk
Commander
3544 Posts
USA
| | 04/28/2008 4:05 AM | Alert | Playing in additional Qualifiers (and dropping to let others in) for practice and experience is ok by me. And playing for that plane ticket (or gas money) IMO if you are costing someone else a qualifier spot is not so cool, but if you need to, then you need to.Â
With invitations at a preimium this year with only the top two spots getting invites, playing in additonal final four (especially if one does not need the plane ticket), is not so cool.Â
But Re: who get invites, we have:
1) Top 2 from each Qualifier (we have more this year)
2) Maybe top 100 based on Standard DCI rating
3) Maybe Top 1oo from Vintage rating, per JohnnyQuest on Hordelings:
"My gut's telling me that they'll invite the top 100 Standard players and the top 100 Vintage players for this one. "
http://www.hordelings.com/forums/postView.php?post_id=143806&viewPage=0#143806
4) Other possible ways (speculate - Champs form last year and XP; another (2nd) grinder).Â
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Sirohk, the Bard of Heartstone
Knight of the Rahshasa's
And Crusader of the Zakya, Ak'chazar, Naztharune, and Naityan Rakshasa's | |
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bshugg
Underboss
1707 Posts
| | 04/28/2008 5:29 AM | Alert | | I just reread my original post and it seems like I'm directing a lot of that towards Kevin. That wasn't my intent and I apologize for that. I will fix up the wording a bit. My main concerns is that there are easy and simple fixes for the problem and WotC isn't using them. Until then I would like to see the players self police themselves. | |
Looking for someone to cosponser a midwest DDM event. let me know if your interested!
Check out my brand new blog:
http://bshugg.blogspot.com | |
| Duke of Spoils
greyhaze
Warlord
5141 Posts
| | 04/28/2008 7:01 AM | Alert | | I'll support your goal bshugg, I think more qualifier opportunities equals a bigger and better community. | |
Greyhaze's DDM Spoilers
Champion of Darkenbeast , Raistlin Majere, Nightmare WDQ25/60, Warduke WD60/60,
Anti-Champion of Guns, "Knight of Bugbears", and Joke Champion of Venger.
Called Shots: Ghast in Against the Giants, Darkenbeast in Demon Web. | |
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Kevizoid
Warrior
261 Posts
Southern California
| | 04/28/2008 8:01 AM | Alert | The thing is though, anyone who is likely to do well enough at qualifiers to get slots, is also likely to get in on rating because of the reset.
The only qualifier I'd consider going for the ticket is in NoCal and that will completely depend on who gets in if I drop. | |
SoCal Colluder | |
| Master of the
Awesome Sauce
Teflon Jeff
Warlord
5329 Posts
Idaho. Yes, we have Gamers in Idaho.
| | 04/28/2008 9:12 AM | Alert | Meh, pass-down slots seems like a great idea, but at the same time, you're qualifying more people who maybe shouldn't be there? I don't have the answer, but i will tell you how I would do it.
All qualifiers are on the same day. No sniping, no worries about pre-qualified players. That, or maybe two separate Saturdays of qualifying. They do something similar in Magic for regionals, which is the qualifier for nationals.
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Official Delegate, Wizards of the Coast
Against The Giants Called Shot: Huge Green Dragon
Icons Called Shot: Gargantuan Prismatic Dragon
"Rejoice, for bad things are about to happen." | |
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Sirohk
Commander
3544 Posts
USA
| | 04/28/2008 2:15 PM | Alert | Posted By greyhaze on 04/28/2008 7:01 AM
I'll support your goal bshugg, I think more qualifier opportunities equals a bigger and better community.
Seconded.Â
More Qualifier spots definately equals more community involvement.Â
Could some of the low turnouts at the early Qualifiers be a result of only top two getting invites? Or could it be the switch to DDM 2.0 and the limited number of figures? Or something completely different altogether?Â
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Sirohk, the Bard of Heartstone
Knight of the Rahshasa's
And Crusader of the Zakya, Ak'chazar, Naztharune, and Naityan Rakshasa's | |
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digital13jw
Skirmisher
27 Posts
| | 04/28/2008 3:29 PM | Alert | | I for one don't think it's (Stealing) for someone to drive/fly to a Qualifier and take 1st/2ed they still need to win the games they play, I'm form Lynnwood, WA I took 4th in Lacey, WA top 3 were from Vancouver, Portland and So Cal they played well no hard feelings here, I think it sucks they changed it from top 4 to top 2 It would be nice if WoTC did top 4 for Qualifiers with over 12 people there would be a bigger turnout at some events. I don't understand why it would be so hard seeing only like 60% of the people that Qualify actually go to the Cons, at least this was the case at XP there were I think 87 people and there with over 150 invites. Now if you have no intension of going to the Championship even with the ticket and you don't drop after Swiss rounds than that’s a different story. | | | |
| Duke of Spoils
greyhaze
Warlord
5141 Posts
| | 04/28/2008 4:46 PM | Alert | I will agree that the spots are earned and not stolen. However, and you mention this, it's still best for the community to have more ppl to get the option to go rather than not.
Even someone that "has no business being there" improves by going and getting crushed by "the best" and testing their skillz in the bigger pond (sorry that earlier argument didn't sit well with me). | |
Greyhaze's DDM Spoilers
Champion of Darkenbeast , Raistlin Majere, Nightmare WDQ25/60, Warduke WD60/60,
Anti-Champion of Guns, "Knight of Bugbears", and Joke Champion of Venger.
Called Shots: Ghast in Against the Giants, Darkenbeast in Demon Web. | |
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Kevizoid
Warrior
261 Posts
Southern California
| | 04/28/2008 5:14 PM | Alert | | I have no problem with people playing in the champs even if they lose. It's just that by the 4th round, 30 percent + of the champs has already dropped from the tournament. I could see why you'd drop if you had other stuff you could do, but this is the big leagues. Wouldn't you want to play it out? I haven't had as much fun in any tournament as I do in the big champs. There is a real thrill to it. I wish everyone would get in personally. But wizard doesn't do it that way. I just don't like how everyone is ready to demonize people who would rather not pay a bunch of money for a plane ticket instead of letting some guy they don't know qualify (maybe not even use the spot.) | |
SoCal Colluder | |
| Duke of Spoils
greyhaze
Warlord
5141 Posts
| | 04/28/2008 8:06 PM | Alert | Posted By Kevizoid on 04/28/2008 5:14 PM
I just don't like how everyone is ready to demonize people who would rather not pay a bunch of money for a plane ticket instead of letting some guy they don't know qualify (maybe not even use the spot.)
Perhaps I've missed this portion of the discussion, are ppl demonizing others over this? I hope not, I certainly am not. | |
Greyhaze's DDM Spoilers
Champion of Darkenbeast , Raistlin Majere, Nightmare WDQ25/60, Warduke WD60/60,
Anti-Champion of Guns, "Knight of Bugbears", and Joke Champion of Venger.
Called Shots: Ghast in Against the Giants, Darkenbeast in Demon Web. | |
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Kevizoid
Warrior
261 Posts
Southern California
| | 04/28/2008 8:54 PM | Alert | | Well, demonizing might be too strong a word ;P. But there has been year after a year, a touchy general sentiment when it comes to qualifier slots. | |
SoCal Colluder | |
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Dagaron
Sneak
136 Posts
Indiana, USA
| | 04/28/2008 9:29 PM | Alert | I've only witnessed good things out of the DDM community so far.
If a person stays in or drops to allow someone else in it is their decision. I'd hope most of the higher-level players that would be in a situation would drop. As many of us "semi-pro" players still struggle for our spots (and semi-pro is probably stretching it for me :P ).
However if a guy drives out to play and wants to go for the plane ticket.. I can't argue it. I'd have thoughts about the same thing if I were in their shoes.
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Champion of Dagaronzie, Green Dragon
DDM Have/Want List
DDM Trade History & Feedback | |
| Knight of the
Round Table
Thenameless
Warlord
7965 Posts
The Fortress of Solitude
| | 04/28/2008 11:15 PM | Alert | I can shed a little light from having experienced both sides of the situation. In the past, I was asked to drop from a top 4 qualified position, so that a person who had not yet qualified (and was currently 5th after Swiss), could receive an invitation to the Championship - I had already come 2nd in an earlier qualifier. I declined, and told that person that I was trying to win the plane ticket, as it would help me a lot financially if I were able to win.
On a separate occasion, I asked another player (who had already qualified in an earlier qualifier) to drop for me, as I was 5th after the Swiss rounds, and would receive the invitation should he drop. He declined citing the same reason I used above. I had no hard feelings toward this person, as I feel that it is my job to win my own games in order to qualify. As a person who finishes outside of a qualifying position, I would be glad to "inherit" a place if someone is kind enough to step down. But, I don't think people should be made to feel guilty if they decide not to. | |
Over 270 successful online DDM trades. | |
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Kevizoid
Warrior
261 Posts
Southern California
| | 04/28/2008 11:35 PM | Alert | Posted By Thenameless on 04/28/2008 11:15 PM
I can shed a little light from having experienced both sides of the situation. In the past, I was asked to drop from a top 4 qualified position, so that a person who had not yet qualified (and was currently 5th after Swiss), could receive an invitation to the Championship - I had already come 2nd in an earlier qualifier. I declined, and told that person that I was trying to win the plane ticket, as it would help me a lot financially if I were able to win.
On a separate occasion, I asked another player (who had already qualified in an earlier qualifier) to drop for me, as I was 5th after the Swiss rounds, and would receive the invitation should he drop. He declined citing the same reason I used above. I had no hard feelings toward this person, as I feel that it is my job to win my own games in order to qualify. As a person who finishes outside of a qualifying position, I would be glad to "inherit" a place if someone is kind enough to step down. But, I don't think people should be made to feel guilty if they decide not to.
Yeah, thats the exact "touchy sentiment" I'm talking about. As if trying to not have to fork over a bunch of money on a plane flight makes you a bad person. The community has a tendency to try and guilt you into being "nice". | |
SoCal Colluder | |
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Dagaron
Sneak
136 Posts
Indiana, USA
| | 04/29/2008 4:05 AM | Alert | Posted By Thenameless on 04/28/2008 11:15 PM
I can shed a little light from having experienced both sides of the situation. In the past, I was asked to drop from a top 4 qualified position, so that a person who had not yet qualified (and was currently 5th after Swiss), could receive an invitation to the Championship - I had already come 2nd in an earlier qualifier. I declined, and told that person that I was trying to win the plane ticket, as it would help me a lot financially if I were able to win.
On a separate occasion, I asked another player (who had already qualified in an earlier qualifier) to drop for me, as I was 5th after the Swiss rounds, and would receive the invitation should he drop. He declined citing the same reason I used above. I had no hard feelings toward this person, as I feel that it is my job to win my own games in order to qualify. As a person who finishes outside of a qualifying position, I would be glad to "inherit" a place if someone is kind enough to step down. But, I don't think people should be made to feel guilty if they decide not to.
I feel like you and the other player did the correct thing by asking the person if they're planning on dropping, or if they are staying in.
The situation I personally don't like is if the person who is already qualified does not drop before the top 4 and then drops at top 2. I'm not sure if anyone has done it, but going into the top two with the intent to drop because you want to compete in more qualifiers ..
I'd have not-so-good feelings about that one. Even though I understand that it's a championship and the strategy behind eliminating potential opponents. But I still don't agree with it. | |
Champion of Dagaronzie, Green Dragon
DDM Have/Want List
DDM Trade History & Feedback | |
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mege
Skirmisher
41 Posts
| | 04/29/2008 5:40 AM | Alert | Posted By Dagaron on 04/29/2008 4:05 AM Posted By Thenameless on 04/28/2008 11:15 PM
I can shed a little light from having experienced both sides of the situation. In the past, I was asked to drop from a top 4 qualified position, so that a person who had not yet qualified (and was currently 5th after Swiss), could receive an invitation to the Championship - I had already come 2nd in an earlier qualifier. I declined, and told that person that I was trying to win the plane ticket, as it would help me a lot financially if I were able to win.
On a separate occasion, I asked another player (who had already qualified in an earlier qualifier) to drop for me, as I was 5th after the Swiss rounds, and would receive the invitation should he drop. He declined citing the same reason I used above. I had no hard feelings toward this person, as I feel that it is my job to win my own games in order to qualify. As a person who finishes outside of a qualifying position, I would be glad to "inherit" a place if someone is kind enough to step down. But, I don't think people should be made to feel guilty if they decide not to. I feel like you and the other player did the correct thing by asking the person if they're planning on dropping, or if they are staying in. The situation I personally don't like is if the person who is already qualified does not drop before the top 4 and then drops at top 2. I'm not sure if anyone has done it, but going into the top two with the intent to drop because you want to compete in more qualifiers .. I'd have not-so-good feelings about that one. Even though I understand that it's a championship and the strategy behind eliminating potential opponents. But I still don't agree with it.
A good fix is just invite one person per qualifier and have more qualifiers (and disallow the one qualified person from participating further in quals).
To me, all of this talk of 'blocking for spots' is just people flexing their own ego, THOUGH - right now it makes sense for people to gain rating by participating further. | | | |
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Vrecknidj
Warlord
9462 Posts
United States
| | 04/29/2008 6:38 AM | Alert | Posted By Kevizoid on 04/28/2008 11:35 PM
The community has a tendency to try and guilt you into being "nice". That's because there's no other way.
Manipulation, FTW!
It's funny, really, because generally the community is composed of very nice, very amiable folks. However, things get a little cutthroat when qualifier season rolls around. This does come up every year. If there were no plane tickets on the line, how would that affect things? In other words, if there were only qualifying spots up for grabs, would there be less contentiousness? And, if there were no plane tickets available, would fewer people actually turn up at the championships?
Dave
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Knowledge Arcana editor issues 5-9, Phoenix Lore Magazine editor, assistant editor for Rite Publishing;
My Trade Thread and My Reference Thread; Winner of WBC IV, IX and XIII; Rule #0: bshugg is always right! | |
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tundrin
Sergeant
393 Posts
Randolph, NJ
| | 04/29/2008 7:01 AM | Alert | Can anyone more in the "know" comment on a rumor that WotC is intentially cutting down on players for this champs due to floorspace at GC this year?
This year is also a special situation - not only do we have a new rankings format, we also do not know exactly all the ways to actually qualify. If it is just standard format, then of course, people want as many matches as possible, the points you earn will stay with you forever - and for a lot of us, we dont get a lot of chances to even play in sanctioned events (I get 1/month and 3/year of those are prereleases - until I can generate some more local players)
Last year was my first champs, but I also knew that certain players were already in based on performance at : Previous year's champs, Limited champs, Top 100 (or maybe it was 50) on the rankings list, there was even a qualifier at XP.
I have not seen to date a statement form WotC as to how people are auto-qualified for this year. A statement about top 50 standard, or top 50 vintage or both be useful. Perhaps if space is an issue, they might want to wait until qual season is over, then look at how many they have, look at top rankings and based on approximately how people they WANT to have, state what ranking is the cut off. (granted some might not show, but it gives them a way to limit attendees.)
I plan to go , will grind if I dont qual somehow. Â
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"I am not left handed either", well actually I am, but I roll righty
Champion of Epic Cleric (vindicated - Van Richten)and Epic Monk | |
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tundrin
Sergeant
393 Posts
Randolph, NJ
| | 04/29/2008 7:04 AM | Alert | Posted By Vrecknidj on 04/29/2008 6:38 AM Posted By Kevizoid on 04/28/2008 11:35 PM
The community has a tendency to try and guilt you into being "nice". That's because there's no other way. Manipulation, FTW! It's funny, really, because generally the community is composed of very nice, very amiable folks. However, things get a little cutthroat when qualifier season rolls around. This does come up every year. If there were no plane tickets on the line, how would that affect things? In other words, if there were only qualifying spots up for grabs, would there be less contentiousness? And, if there were no plane tickets available, would fewer people actually turn up at the championships? Dave
Or if all qualifers simply got 4 day registration covered (what is that about $70, maybe plus the entry fee) - for 4 qualifiers that is saving WotC money. | |
"I am not left handed either", well actually I am, but I roll righty
Champion of Epic Cleric (vindicated - Van Richten)and Epic Monk | |
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Brig
Skirmisher
10 Posts
| | 04/29/2008 7:13 AM | Alert | Posted By Vrecknidj on 04/29/2008 6:38 AM Posted By Kevizoid on 04/28/2008 11:35 PM
The community has a tendency to try and guilt you into being "nice". That's because there's no other way. Manipulation, FTW! It's funny, really, because generally the community is composed of very nice, very amiable folks. However, things get a little cutthroat when qualifier season rolls around. This does come up every year. If there were no plane tickets on the line, how would that affect things? In other words, if there were only qualifying spots up for grabs, would there be less contentiousness? And, if there were no plane tickets available, would fewer people actually turn up at the championships? Dave
The answers are yes and yes. More people would drop and less would show. I think the easiest solution would be to invite top 4. Then the few trying for plane tickets after being qualified are cutting out a smaller portion of slots.
Playing for a plane is not queation of morality that some seem to think it is. It is a question of finance. I plan on playing in qualifiers until the season ends or I win a plane ticket I know others in that boat. Doing this will also allow us a better chance at being top 100 if we fail to qualifiy. Gencon is not a cheap trip and winning that plane ticket is a huge relief for most players. | |
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Dordledum
Commander
2937 Posts
Netherlands
| | 04/29/2008 7:25 AM | Alert | I think the only way to win a plane ticket in Europe is to win the European champs (it's the only qualifier here, right?). I think the only way to get one of us Europeans to GenCon is to give us plane tickets.
I think the entire point is moot from my personal point of view, but I do sympathize with those not dropping if they still need a plane ticket.
D.
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Champion of the Huge Spider (WotDQ 46/60), A New Umber Hulk (DoDe 57/60), and Hardcopy Printed DDM 2.0 Stat-Cards for all Minis!
Completed: got them all!!! | |
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greyhaze
Warlord
5141 Posts
| | 04/29/2008 7:31 AM | Alert | | Isn't it a problem with the software that is not allowing the invitation to be passed down, and then it's a question of which match gets passed down. Someone wins 4th place in one qualifier, then wins 2nd place in their next qualifier, which 5th place winner gets bumped up for the invite?... I would say, the first match you qualify for is "fixed", the first qualifier you've qualified in can NOT be passed down, so the 2nd matches and further on would be the ones that do get passed down - but fixing the software is another issue altogether (which should be addressed for other reasons as well iirc). | |
Greyhaze's DDM Spoilers
Champion of Darkenbeast , Raistlin Majere, Nightmare WDQ25/60, Warduke WD60/60,
Anti-Champion of Guns, "Knight of Bugbears", and Joke Champion of Venger.
Called Shots: Ghast in Against the Giants, Darkenbeast in Demon Web. | |
| Master of the
Awesome Sauce
Teflon Jeff
Warlord
5329 Posts
Idaho. Yes, we have Gamers in Idaho.
| | 04/29/2008 8:31 AM | Alert | Greyhaze has a point, let's say you finish second at two qualifiers. Which third place finisher gets the "passdown" slot?
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Official Delegate, Wizards of the Coast
Against The Giants Called Shot: Huge Green Dragon
Icons Called Shot: Gargantuan Prismatic Dragon
"Rejoice, for bad things are about to happen." | |
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sienar
Sergeant
629 Posts
| | 04/29/2008 8:33 AM | Alert | Passing down slots is, unfortunately, not a reasonable solution. More, it is not equitable.
Keeping with the SoCal theme. Take this situation.
Kevin makes top 2 in two qualifiers. Dwayne manages 3rd in the first one, and Paul manages 3rd in the second one. Is it fair to Dwayne to say Paul is more deserving of the slot simply because he lost out second? No way. Why is Paul more deserving?
This crops up every year, and people attack (attack is probably too strong a word) those that do well at multiple qualifiers. At the same time, many of the qualifiers so far would have FAILED TO RUN had people like Kevin not showed up (or, at least, run according to DCI rules with a minimum of 8). How many of this years' qualifiers would have still run without roving bands of marauders?
So far, those that have succeeded at multiple qualifiers have been good about not "stealing" spots from people.
How different, really, would the invite list have looked had the top 4 been granted invites along with the top 100? Who would have actually come to Gen Con off of a Top 4 slot that did not also have a Top 100 spot?
The qualifiers are one of the best ways for many to practice for the championships. Of course some are going to go to multiple. For that matter, I invite anybody and everybody to come steal spots from Colorado. Bring it. | |
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