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XAos
Underboss
2395 Posts
    
London
 | | 06/06/2008 4:14 AM |
| For the previous sets of ddm-2 cards, WotC have been achievieng a "playability" level of about 80%. i.e. The vast majority of the figures in DoD, DuD & Night Below were playable in tier-1 warbands. Provided you could find a strong combo with the rest of the warband. Admitedly a lot of the figures don't (yet) have strong combos. But with a dozen more sets to convert, a lot of them will eventually will have...
With Unhallowed, the average cost-effectiveness of the set has gone down a notch. With the execption of at most 20% of the set, none of it is tier-1 competative. Have the playtesters been too pesimistic in their analysis of this set. Or have WotC reverted to it's former policy of deliberatly making only 10-20% playable. ?!? | |
Don't worry about the current metagame. It doesn't matter if it's ugly, bad, or the best ever. In 2 years time, set rotation will ban everything. | |
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Vrecknidj
Warlord
10425 Posts
United States
| | 06/06/2008 7:48 AM |
| I think that as we get more pieces, fewer will be worthy. What I mean is, the greater the pool of figures, the lower the odds that any given figure will be useful.
Dave | |
Knowledge Arcana editor issues 5-9, Phoenix Lore Magazine editor, assistant editor for Rite Publishing;
My Trade Thread and My Reference Thread; Winner of WBC IV, IX and XIII; Rule #0: bshugg is always right! | |
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iluvxtina
Underboss
1500 Posts
Spain
| | 06/06/2008 8:34 AM |
| | Very true | |
LOVE THIS GIRL | |
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Lord_rock
Underboss
1997 Posts
Portland OR
| | 06/06/2008 11:46 AM |
| it is only true if WOTC makes it true... What are the benifit of doing this?!?!
In reality however, take away the top 2-3 figures and about 75% across the board suddenly becomes tier 1 and 1.5 (good combo)... Right now those 2 are very obvious and I've talked about them a lot so I won't rehash those arguements here. | |
Rock Bottom Pricing:
Arcane Archer 30, Centaur Hero 67, Human Cleric of Bane 25, Gold Champion 34, Death Knight 52, Goblin Blackblade 9, Silentwolf Goblin 7, Orc Raider 10, Dwarf axefighter 9, Healer 9, Thaskor 65, Aspect of Demogorgon 71, Ogre 9, Fire Giant 79, Human Wanderer 7, Drunken Master 18, Barghest 12, Longstider Barbarian 27, Longtooth Barbarian 22, Frost Giant 76, Ravenous Vampire 42, Large Earth Elemental: priceless | |
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bshugg
Underboss
1832 Posts
| | 06/06/2008 12:34 PM |
| As the pool grows larger, you end up with a smaller and smaller percentage that will be better. It's just the nature of the game. That's one of the advantages of a rotating formats like standard because it gives more figures a chance to shine over different time frames. Eventually in a massive pool of figs, only the few that are real "outliers" on the over powered scale end up being playable.
I'm not saying that Unhallowed was all that great, but a smaller percentage HAS to be playable with 4 sets rather than just 2. There will be even smaller percentage per set when we are at 8 or 10 sets+.
Also WotC has to make a business decision. If the older sets have everything you need to play and compete, you don't need to buy any of the new figs. This happened with Mage Knight and a few other collectable games. New stuff sucked compared to old so the new stuff didn't sell. There's a common saying in Classic magic that Classic (with the 300-600$ cards) is actually the cheapest format to play. When a new set comes out you only need 1-2 cards to add to your deck. In standard you need 30 new rares everytime a new set comes out. | |
Looking for someone to cosponser a midwest DDM event. let me know if your interested!
Check out my brand new blog:
http://bshugg.blogspot.com | |
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mege
Sneak
67 Posts
| | 06/06/2008 1:57 PM |
| Just wait until the ruining of 60 fan voted figures happens. Do you really think they'll release 60 overpowered, standard playable, minis at once?
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Temperance
Sergeant
522 Posts
| | 06/06/2008 2:10 PM |
| | We don't consciously choose to have things better or worse -- we try to have things balanced. Everyone's interpretation of what is good and what is bad is different -- that's human nature. | |
Champion of the common Flying Monkey (Fez optional)
Peter Lee on the WotC board
BAD WOLF
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iluvxtina
Underboss
1500 Posts
Spain
| | 06/06/2008 3:15 PM |
| | One curiosity: have you realized than the first set of D&D minis (the 2.0 minis version) has the most powerful mini (Eternal Blade)??The same than Magic the gathering with Alpha and its Black lotus? It is a coincidence? | |
LOVE THIS GIRL | |
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Lord_rock
Underboss
1997 Posts
Portland OR
| | 06/06/2008 3:35 PM |
| No offense Peter, but consciously make an attempt to blance things
after you discover they are unbalanced then. If your fan base finds
things competetive that you do not and that is what is getting played
then consciously make an effort to allign your thoughts with your fan
base or see your fan base disapear. If over half the minis are not
balanced to your fans standards but you see them all as balanced then
there is a big disconnect that needs to be addressed.
There were
many many observers during BETA testing that said the EB was unbalanced
and too powerful. Other figures that were not discussed where instead
nerfed into unplayablity in the competetive scene. Now the evidence
continues to mount that the EB is still the most powerful piece; maybe
powerful isn't the correct word... unbalancing then. You cannot correct
this inbalance with the release of other figures; that only serves to
further unbalance the game-- don't let this piece be your Eternal Folly.
Please listen to your fans... and please please please continue to keep
having dialogue with us. This is how we can address this disconnect. | |
Rock Bottom Pricing:
Arcane Archer 30, Centaur Hero 67, Human Cleric of Bane 25, Gold Champion 34, Death Knight 52, Goblin Blackblade 9, Silentwolf Goblin 7, Orc Raider 10, Dwarf axefighter 9, Healer 9, Thaskor 65, Aspect of Demogorgon 71, Ogre 9, Fire Giant 79, Human Wanderer 7, Drunken Master 18, Barghest 12, Longstider Barbarian 27, Longtooth Barbarian 22, Frost Giant 76, Ravenous Vampire 42, Large Earth Elemental: priceless | |
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Sirohk
Commander
3912 Posts
USA
| | 06/06/2008 4:40 PM |
| Posted By Temperance on 06/06/2008 2:10 PM
We don't consciously choose to have things better or worse -- we try to have things balanced. Everyone's interpretation of what is good and what is bad is different -- that's human nature.
How can those who know the most about the minis, sets, rules, etc... not see when creating the stats for a particular mini that it is not balanced? I can believe this to a certain degree, but as soon as the beta UH stats were released I could tell at a first pass thorugh the stats what pieces looked hot and which ones were meh. With analysis and playtesting to follow to confirm the initial thoughts. Â
Experienced DDMers can usually tell good from bad pretty much at first pass through the stats.Â
Unless of course:
1) Certain figures are stated a certain way so as to be useful with future relased figures
2) That figure had its day in the sun so it shall be just a little underpowered
3) That certain favorite figure never had its day in the sun and it derserves one, so power him up
4) Looks decent in pricipal, but stinks in reality vs rest of meta
5) Missed something that actually makes the figure stellar or very poor
All of the above, human nature.Â
Just my $0.02.Â
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Sirohk, the Bard of Heartstone
Knight of the Rahshasa's
And Crusader of the Zakya, Ak'chazar, Naztharune, and Naityan Rakshasa's | |
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Turboman
Warrior
212 Posts
| | 06/06/2008 5:09 PM |
| | 6) Some miniatures are never going to be good because they are made for the RPGers. | |
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Sirohk
Commander
3912 Posts
USA
| | 06/06/2008 5:12 PM |
| Posted By Turboman on 06/06/2008 5:09 PM
6) Some miniatures are never going to be good because they are made for the RPGers.
Good one.Â
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Sirohk, the Bard of Heartstone
Knight of the Rahshasa's
And Crusader of the Zakya, Ak'chazar, Naztharune, and Naityan Rakshasa's | |
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Zyla
Underboss
1191 Posts
| | 06/06/2008 9:17 PM |
| | The only reason to do a restate of the older set was for the tournament scene, so alot more should be compatative. The problem is figures like the EB are so vhastly superior to other figures nothing else is worth using | |
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Lord_rock
Underboss
1997 Posts
Portland OR
| | 06/06/2008 9:36 PM |
| | made for rpg does not mean has to suck in skirmish... There is no reason a piece can't be good in both places. The new fire giant raider looks pretty good for skirmish; it must suck for RPG. | |
Rock Bottom Pricing:
Arcane Archer 30, Centaur Hero 67, Human Cleric of Bane 25, Gold Champion 34, Death Knight 52, Goblin Blackblade 9, Silentwolf Goblin 7, Orc Raider 10, Dwarf axefighter 9, Healer 9, Thaskor 65, Aspect of Demogorgon 71, Ogre 9, Fire Giant 79, Human Wanderer 7, Drunken Master 18, Barghest 12, Longstider Barbarian 27, Longtooth Barbarian 22, Frost Giant 76, Ravenous Vampire 42, Large Earth Elemental: priceless | |
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Vrecknidj
Warlord
10425 Posts
United States
| | 06/07/2008 6:07 AM |
| So far, the Eternal Blade has shown up as a single figure in 49 Top 4 bands, and as a double figure in 10 Top 4 bands. There have been 112 total Top 4 bands so far, so 59/112 = 52.68%.
That's pretty dominant. In previous qualifier seasons, other bands rose to the top, but, often, the meta would shift during the season. Even if it didn't shift too much, it would shift. This year, the Eternal Blade started strong and, I expect, will make a significant showing at GenCon. That hasn't happened in a while.
Still, in Standard, she'll only last so long.
Here's a conspiracy theory for you. Since the Eternal Blade will rotate out of Standard but not out of Vintage, the Eternal Blade will dominate the Vintage format forever. This provides a strong incentive for people to play Standard instead. WotC can look at the numbers of players and say, "Well gee, nobody seems to be wanting to play Vintage after all. We were right, you guys didn't really need all those old figures to be restatted." This could be a way to kill Vintage before it starts, to keep players in the rotating format.
Dave | |
Knowledge Arcana editor issues 5-9, Phoenix Lore Magazine editor, assistant editor for Rite Publishing;
My Trade Thread and My Reference Thread; Winner of WBC IV, IX and XIII; Rule #0: bshugg is always right! | |
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XAos
Underboss
2395 Posts
London
| | 06/07/2008 7:07 AM |
| Posted By Vrecknidj on 06/06/2008 7:48 AM
I think that as we get more pieces, fewer will be worthy. What I mean is, the greater the pool of figures, the lower the odds that any given figure will be useful.
Dave
That would be true, if I were using a "subjective" evaluation of whats playable & what isn't. My own view of whats strong would be distorting with each new set. But I'm using a spreadsheet based on probabilities to hit & damage rates. And by that "objective" view, the majority of unhallowed figures are worse than the average for previous sets. | |
Don't worry about the current metagame. It doesn't matter if it's ugly, bad, or the best ever. In 2 years time, set rotation will ban everything. | |
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Lord_rock
Underboss
1997 Posts
Portland OR
| | 06/07/2008 7:44 AM |
| Dave,
your conspirisy theories are going to have me waking up in the middle of the night! Seems plausible though...
The other oddity about the EB is she dominates in over half the bands and we have 2.5 times more new sets out during that same time! In the days of 1.0 single figures would dominate 4 months at a time till a new set came out; we're going on set 4 and nothing is going to dethrone her that I've seen. Then again, I guess it's not that odd-- we told them this is exactly what she was going to do when they didn't fix her in BETA.
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Rock Bottom Pricing:
Arcane Archer 30, Centaur Hero 67, Human Cleric of Bane 25, Gold Champion 34, Death Knight 52, Goblin Blackblade 9, Silentwolf Goblin 7, Orc Raider 10, Dwarf axefighter 9, Healer 9, Thaskor 65, Aspect of Demogorgon 71, Ogre 9, Fire Giant 79, Human Wanderer 7, Drunken Master 18, Barghest 12, Longstider Barbarian 27, Longtooth Barbarian 22, Frost Giant 76, Ravenous Vampire 42, Large Earth Elemental: priceless | |
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Zyla
Underboss
1191 Posts
| | 06/08/2008 12:01 AM |
| This is why Vintage is going to fail, a broken figure in standard will still be broken in Vintage  They did this with MTG as well, it does not matter how broken a figure turns out to be because it will eventually be rotated out of standard, so WoTC has no incentive to fix it. Vintage does not make WoTC money, Standard does. | |
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tundrin
Sergeant
415 Posts
Randolph, NJ
| | 06/11/2008 7:46 AM |
| Wait for the Doppleganger! Or the old Rakashasa -
Stealing / duplicating / discontinuing enemy champ powers! | |
Champs 2007 Top 16, Team Amish Class of 2007
Seeking Northern NJ DDM'ers - "There can be only one" (I hope not)
Champion of the Doppleganger | |
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djtool
Sergeant
584 Posts
Crystal MN, USA
| | 06/11/2008 10:18 AM |
| the only conspiracy theory (if you can call it that) that I have is that new mechanics are tested in vintage before going into standard until they run out of vintage.
It also seems that vintage pieces are more powerful then standard, or at least graded on a different scale. we'll have a clearer picture come AtG and Demonweb.
I doubt the EB will rule vintage forever. Too much left to create. Plus she can always be changed. | |
Champion of: Brain in a Jar | |
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jelzimme
49 Posts
| | 06/11/2008 10:26 AM |
| Posted By djtool on 06/11/2008 10:18 AM
...
I doubt the EB will rule vintage forever. Too much left to create. Plus she can always be changed. I wouldn't be suprised in the least if they modify EB once she's no longer legal in Standard. My current theory is: because of how prevelent she is in qualifying warbands, WotC is reluctant to modify her while she's still Standard legal.
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mege
Sneak
67 Posts
| | 06/11/2008 10:32 AM |
| | I have a feeling that in the future more 'counterspell' like champion abilities will be made available, diminishing the power of the EB. I do still stand by the fact that if the EB wasn't as powerful, something else would take her place as top-dog. | | | |
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Lord_rock
Underboss
1997 Posts
Portland OR
| | 06/11/2008 4:03 PM |
| there is no question that there would be a new "topdog" but there isn't another piece as game changing yet... I say yet and pray the design team doesn't try to just outpower her... Didn't work for displacer beasts to Orc champs to berserkers to black dragons... Not going to work this time either.
There are many simple fixes to her but just trying to fix her through other pieces would truely make her their eternal folly...
I'm ok with another top dog since that dog won't increase att by 10% dmg by 50-30%, have the best init, some of the best defense, able to boost ally defenses, break movement rules, get extra atts each round, and still have good hps and att's herself... All while ensuring theme bands and keyword combos don't show up. | |
Rock Bottom Pricing:
Arcane Archer 30, Centaur Hero 67, Human Cleric of Bane 25, Gold Champion 34, Death Knight 52, Goblin Blackblade 9, Silentwolf Goblin 7, Orc Raider 10, Dwarf axefighter 9, Healer 9, Thaskor 65, Aspect of Demogorgon 71, Ogre 9, Fire Giant 79, Human Wanderer 7, Drunken Master 18, Barghest 12, Longstider Barbarian 27, Longtooth Barbarian 22, Frost Giant 76, Ravenous Vampire 42, Large Earth Elemental: priceless | |
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