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Lord_rock
Underboss
1777 Posts
    
Portland OR
 | | 06/29/2008 3:45 PM |
| | So there are some pretty impressive figures coming out of against the giants. Some may even overthrow most of the current combos. This feels like a big leap forward on the power curve. Someone explain to me how wrong I am so I can stop worrying about the P word. | |
Rock Bottom Pricing:
Arcane Archer 30, Centaur Hero 67, Human Cleric of Bane 25, Gold Champion 34, Death Knight 52, Goblin Blackblade 9, Silentwolf Goblin 7, Orc Raider 10, Dwarf axefighter 9, Healer 9, Thaskor 65, Aspect of Demogorgon 71, Ogre 9, Fire Giant 79, Human Wanderer 7, Drunken Master 18, Barghest 12, Longstider Barbarian 27, Longtooth Barbarian 22, Frost Giant 76, Ravenous Vampire 42, Large Earth Elemental: priceless | |
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Lord_rock
Underboss
1777 Posts
Portland OR
| | 06/29/2008 3:51 PM |
| blatant ickyness #1:
shifter claw adept + EB = auto death to any piece with an ac of 22 or less (barring a roll of 1). Puts big hurt on many things with +18 for 25 till you miss. Add wulfgar and erase 2 creatures with 22 ac or less in one activation no matter how many hp they have (again, barring a roll of 1). | |
Rock Bottom Pricing:
Arcane Archer 30, Centaur Hero 67, Human Cleric of Bane 25, Gold Champion 34, Death Knight 52, Goblin Blackblade 9, Silentwolf Goblin 7, Orc Raider 10, Dwarf axefighter 9, Healer 9, Thaskor 65, Aspect of Demogorgon 71, Ogre 9, Fire Giant 79, Human Wanderer 7, Drunken Master 18, Barghest 12, Longstider Barbarian 27, Longtooth Barbarian 22, Frost Giant 76, Ravenous Vampire 42, Large Earth Elemental: priceless | |
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Brig
Skirmisher
25 Posts
| | 06/29/2008 4:08 PM |
| Posted By Lord_rock on 06/29/2008 3:51 PM blatant ickyness #1: shifter claw adept + EB = auto death to any piece with an ac of 22 or less (barring a roll of 1). Puts big hurt on many things with +18 for 30 till you miss. Add wulfgar and erase 2 creatures with 22 ac or less in one activation no matter how many hp they have (again, barring a roll of 1). Shifter Claw Adept Cost 32 Level 9 AC 21 DEF 21 Speed 7 HP 85 Borderlands/Wild Basic: Claw +14 vs AC; 15dmg Melee []Claw Frenzy +16 AC; 10dmg and immediately make this attack again at the same target until it misses. Melee [] Spring Attack this creature can move up to its speed and make a basic melee attack at anytime during its move. Recharge when no enemy is adjacent at the start of this creatures turn. Abilities: Humanoid, Shifter, +4 def(ref),Mobility +5ac vs. OA while moving Special power: Skirmish +5dmg if this creature moves at least 2 squares and makes a melee attack.
I think your math is kind of off or are you saying your oopponent will just let you get flanking? Now I think the Shifter is really good but I see these over reactions every time. First the EB only gives +2/10 vs one type so a well diversified warband will be okay. Second a lot of the pieces that are relied upon have ACs of 25 or better. Third it is +18/25 (if you move) vs one type of creature +16/15 against all of ther types. Fourth Wulfgar only allows a Basic Melee Attack which for the shifter is only one attack. Fifth and finally it is a one use ability. | |
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Zyla
Underboss
1186 Posts
| | 06/29/2008 4:44 PM |
| | Wonder how the all stars will stack up against the power curve in AtG, especially the high cost ones such as the Pit Fiend, Balor, and Solar | |
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Lord_rock
Underboss
1777 Posts
Portland OR
| | 06/29/2008 5:04 PM |
| Yes flanking...speed 7 and combat advantage is easily gained in many ways... It's like an Arcadian avenger that just keeps hitting you. And unless I missed somthing wulfgar's power allows you to make any att you just made; I don't remember basic being in there. A second shifter is cheaper and gets the same results anyway. Then there are those poor helpless critters raistlin put to sleep
There are loads of figures in the 22ac range... There are loads more in the 23-25 range which require rolls of 6 or higher to keep the pain coming... Great piece overall... Broken, no... Icky, yes!!!
icky like the galeb duhr who, if it is ruled like the ONI's ability, has around 130hp for a common. Stick big atts and defenses too and you've got an awefully "aggressivly costed" piece. | |
Rock Bottom Pricing:
Arcane Archer 30, Centaur Hero 67, Human Cleric of Bane 25, Gold Champion 34, Death Knight 52, Goblin Blackblade 9, Silentwolf Goblin 7, Orc Raider 10, Dwarf axefighter 9, Healer 9, Thaskor 65, Aspect of Demogorgon 71, Ogre 9, Fire Giant 79, Human Wanderer 7, Drunken Master 18, Barghest 12, Longstider Barbarian 27, Longtooth Barbarian 22, Frost Giant 76, Ravenous Vampire 42, Large Earth Elemental: priceless | |
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Brig
Skirmisher
25 Posts
| | 06/29/2008 5:34 PM |
| Posted By Lord_rock on 06/29/2008 5:04 PM
Yes flanking...speed 7 and combat advantage is easily gained in many ways... It's like an Arcadian avenger that just keeps hitting you. And unless I missed somthing wulfgar's power allows you to make any att you just made; I don't remember basic being in there. A second shifter is cheaper and gets the same results anyway. Then there are those poor helpless critters raistlin put to sleep
There are loads of figures in the 22ac range... There are loads more in the 23-25 range which require rolls of 6 or higher to keep the pain coming... Great piece overall... Broken, no... Icky, yes!!!
icky like the galeb duhr who, if it is ruled like the ONI's ability, has around 130hp for a common. Stick big atts and defenses too and you've got an awefully "aggressivly costed" piece.
Well you missed something about Wulfgar's ability then. Basic Attacks only. Looking at it right now. Shifter has 21/21 for AC/Def He is just as vulbnerable to Raisltin (if not more so) and extremely vulnerable to ranged attacks. Speed 7 and Fly 6 are completely different. My fodder is not allowing the shifter to get behind my guys to set up a flank. Flanking with a flyer is much easier than with someone stuck to the ground. Yes there are loads of figures but not loads of figures around the 22 AC range that you rely on. Also you are counting on your opponents running a band of one type of creature. I think the piece is good but I am not concerned about the health of the game from this piece. If you really want to look at pushing the power curve look to the Blademaster and Skullcleave. I have no issue with them either but they are pushing it more. | |
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Lord_rock
Underboss
1777 Posts
Portland OR
| | 06/29/2008 6:37 PM |
| the pushing is more what I'm talking about... Seems they are going a bit risqué on some abilities that could be really powerful.
If you want to talk about your fodder blocking flanking then I'm going to talk about my fodder taking out your fodder, then you'll say your ranged kills my fodder first and I then get to say my spellcaster took out your ranged... We talk about possibilities but don't forget we're not in a vacum. I'm talking about possibilities and possibilities that are easy to set up (getting simple combat advantage). | |
Rock Bottom Pricing:
Arcane Archer 30, Centaur Hero 67, Human Cleric of Bane 25, Gold Champion 34, Death Knight 52, Goblin Blackblade 9, Silentwolf Goblin 7, Orc Raider 10, Dwarf axefighter 9, Healer 9, Thaskor 65, Aspect of Demogorgon 71, Ogre 9, Fire Giant 79, Human Wanderer 7, Drunken Master 18, Barghest 12, Longstider Barbarian 27, Longtooth Barbarian 22, Frost Giant 76, Ravenous Vampire 42, Large Earth Elemental: priceless | |
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Barry
Skirmisher
41 Posts
| | 06/29/2008 9:51 PM |
| Im more looking at his HP/Cost ratio than that one skill. The claw frenzy is much like the cascade of steel from the tomb guardian. His is only 4 swings, but there isnt much out there in 200pt, that 100 damage wont kill.
Hes a very nice piece and potentially an excellent assassin.
Barry
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Sirohk
Commander
3779 Posts
USA
| | 06/30/2008 3:44 AM |
| I'm (sadly) really liking the Mighty Blademaster and / or Skullcleave Warrior, mounted.  Throw in the WIld Elf Warsinger.Â
Just sickening what Borderlands got.Â
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Sirohk, the Bard of Heartstone
Knight of the Rahshasa's
And Crusader of the Zakya, Ak'chazar, Naztharune, and Naityan Rakshasa's | |
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OhGodtheRats
Sneak
140 Posts
| | 06/30/2008 6:00 AM |
| | Don't forget to include one of the many pieces that boost damage on a critical when bringing your Mounted SkullCleave Warrior to the big game. So. Freaking. Scary. | | | |
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FriendlyAlienist
Sneak
99 Posts
Finland
| | 06/30/2008 6:22 AM |
| Just get some Conceal... Seriously, Skullcleave is ugly. Anyone want to guess how it will work with Helpless-condition?
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Champion of Gibbering Abomination, Knight of All Things Aberrant | |
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Barry
Skirmisher
41 Posts
| | 06/30/2008 8:18 AM |
| Yeah, its called auto death ;) Take 20, oooh I do it again, take 20..........
Barry
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Zyla
Underboss
1186 Posts
| | 06/30/2008 1:18 PM |
| | The Young Red Dragon gives +20 damage on a criticle hit with its champion effect, and it can be used with the Skulllcleave Warrior | |
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Sirohk
Commander
3779 Posts
USA
| | 06/30/2008 2:48 PM |
| Posted By Zyla on 06/30/2008 1:18 PM
The Young Red Dragon gives +20 damage on a criticle hit with its champion effect, and it can be used with the Skulllcleave Warrior
Too bad that the Young Red Dragon is such a poor piece for the point cost.Â
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Sirohk, the Bard of Heartstone
Knight of the Rahshasa's
And Crusader of the Zakya, Ak'chazar, Naztharune, and Naityan Rakshasa's | |
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omikapsi
Sneak
77 Posts
| | 06/30/2008 9:54 PM |
| I too see this set as really favoring borderlands. The spoilers I've seen make it look like over half the set can be used in borderlands (34 by my count). The other factions are all less by a good bit (25 for civ, 24 for underdark and 23 for wild).
In addition, many of the best pieces are in borderlands (as noted by several others).
One piece that I'm thinking could get some really interesting use would be the Defiant Rake. He's got about a 50/50 chance to send an attack elsewhere. With some of the big hitters out there, especially those with reach, he could have some excellent effective hp/damage output.
And yay for the three point critter for wild/underdark. Plus, it's a common, which is a big plus. Oh, and it's a rat, so having lots and lots is more bonus.
Another thing I've noticed is that there are no champion 4 creatures, just a couple of champ 3s. Looks like EB is going to remain the best commander for the faction with the best options. *sigh* | |
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Kevizoid
Sergeant
373 Posts
Southern California
| | 07/01/2008 12:19 AM |
| | Most everything in BL in this set. For the championships, is actually better in civilization...I only have 1 BL build on my list of stuff that might be playable for the championships... | |
SoCal Colluder | |
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Dordledum
Commander
3149 Posts
Netherlands
| | 07/01/2008 12:32 AM |
| Posted By Sirohk on 06/30/2008 3:44 AM I'm (sadly) really liking the Mighty Blademaster and / or Skullcleave Warrior, mounted.  Throw in the WIld Elf Warsinger.Â
Just sickening what Borderlands got.Â
Exactly, shudder...
D. | |
Member of the Bearded Devils
Champion of the Huge Spider (WotDQ 46/60), A New Umber Hulk (DoDe 57/60), and Hardcopy Printed DDM 2.0 Stat-Cards for all Minis! | |
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Sirohk
Commander
3779 Posts
USA
| | 07/01/2008 3:33 AM |
| Posted By Kevizoid on 07/01/2008 12:19 AM
Most everything in BL in this set. For the championships, is actually better in civilization...I only have 1 BL build on my list of stuff that might be playable for the championships...
I agree. Borderlands got A LOT from AtG, but I'm really liking what the Civilization AND Wild factions got. IMO Wild has some really really interesting pieces I want to try out. And the fodder in Wild (Ravenous Dire Rat, Elf Archer, Kobold Archer, Darkmantle, Wild Elf Warsinger, Hellwasp, and Deathjump Spider) are probably the best of all 4 factions.Â
Underdark on the other hand seems to gotten the least in in AtG.Â
Still, IMO the 4 factions "seem" fairly balanced and diversified. And when / if we get the All Stars, it may get even more diversified.Â
TianZi over on Hordelings summed up the 4 factions nicely:
Civilization: We manipulate movement, have high Champ ratings, and do decent damage
Underdark: We attack DEF, and apply Conditions
Wild: We kinda suck, but have lots of HP's and Large bases
Borderlands: We have attack bonuses and do a lot of damage and have good HP's
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Sirohk, the Bard of Heartstone
Knight of the Rahshasa's
And Crusader of the Zakya, Ak'chazar, Naztharune, and Naityan Rakshasa's | |
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Vrecknidj
Warlord
10253 Posts
United States
| | 07/01/2008 4:23 AM |
| Posted By Kevizoid on 07/01/2008 12:19 AM
Most everything in BL in this set. For the championships, is actually better in civilization...I only have 1 BL build on my list of stuff that might be playable for the championships... You just can't trust these SoCal chumps, always trying to skew the meta with their diversionary chatter.
Only one Borderlands build.
Yeah right.
Dave
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Knowledge Arcana editor issues 5-9, Phoenix Lore Magazine editor, assistant editor for Rite Publishing;
My Trade Thread and My Reference Thread; Winner of WBC IV, IX and XIII; Rule #0: bshugg is always right! | |
| Hero of Skirmish
doubtofbuddha
Commander
3371 Posts
| | 07/01/2008 4:35 AM |
| Coincidentally, I only have one Borderlands build I am looking at either. The rest are in the other factions.
I would go so far as to say that there will MAYBE be one Borderlands band in the Top 4 this year. Maybe. | |
I am not gone. | |
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Vrecknidj
Warlord
10253 Posts
United States
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Zyla
Underboss
1186 Posts
| | 07/01/2008 3:36 PM |
| | Seems like the Hierophant of the Seventh Wind is still the best Wildlands champion, reason being is when Wildlands gets a new figure it 95% of the time be a Beast of some type. | |
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Kevizoid
Sergeant
373 Posts
Southern California
| | 07/01/2008 3:39 PM |
| | Srsly, the only BL build I h ad was storm giant really....and it isn't near the top of my good builds.. | |
SoCal Colluder | |
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Brig
Skirmisher
25 Posts
| | 07/01/2008 4:26 PM |
| | I was surprised that after reviewing some pieces I liked in Borderlands/Civilization. I liked them better in Civilization with the options that faction has. | |
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Kevizoid
Sergeant
373 Posts
Southern California
| | 07/01/2008 5:47 PM |
| | Same, that's where all my BL pieces went.... | |
SoCal Colluder | |
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Vrecknidj
Warlord
10253 Posts
United States
| | 07/02/2008 6:03 AM |
| Arcane Archer doesn't like Bodyguards, Conceal or Insubstantial.
Skullcleave warrior can have a bodyguard, and doesn't care about Conceal or Insubstantial (at least, a pack of them doesn't mind).
Hellwasp and Dire Rat make both Wild and Underdark better. It's easier to either boost activations or at least play something other than Darkmantles.
If you can keep a Tomebound Arcanist alive for a while, it can wreak havoc on an opponent. He's fast and can have a Bodyguard, so, it might work.
From everything I'm seeing, Civilized and Wild will be the favorites for a little while. I'm sure Borderlands is far from out of the picture, but, at least, the Eternal Blade won't be on every table.
Dave | |
Knowledge Arcana editor issues 5-9, Phoenix Lore Magazine editor, assistant editor for Rite Publishing;
My Trade Thread and My Reference Thread; Winner of WBC IV, IX and XIII; Rule #0: bshugg is always right! | |
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Kevizoid
Sergeant
373 Posts
Southern California
| | 07/02/2008 10:42 AM |
| Posted By Vrecknidj on 07/02/2008 6:03 AM
Arcane Archer doesn't like Bodyguards, Conceal or Insubstantial.
Skullcleave warrior can have a bodyguard, and doesn't care about Conceal or Insubstantial (at least, a pack of them doesn't mind).
Hellwasp and Dire Rat make both Wild and Underdark better. It's easier to either boost activations or at least play something other than Darkmantles.
If you can keep a Tomebound Arcanist alive for a while, it can wreak havoc on an opponent. He's fast and can have a Bodyguard, so, it might work.
From everything I'm seeing, Civilized and Wild will be the favorites for a little while. I'm sure Borderlands is far from out of the picture, but, at least, the Eternal Blade won't be on every table.
Dave
or any table... | |
SoCal Colluder | |
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Sirohk
Commander
3779 Posts
USA
| | 07/02/2008 2:49 PM |
| Posted By Kevizoid on 07/02/2008 10:42 AM Posted By Vrecknidj on 07/02/2008 6:03 AM
Arcane Archer doesn't like Bodyguards, Conceal or Insubstantial.
Skullcleave warrior can have a bodyguard, and doesn't care about Conceal or Insubstantial (at least, a pack of them doesn't mind).
Hellwasp and Dire Rat make both Wild and Underdark better. It's easier to either boost activations or at least play something other than Darkmantles.
If you can keep a Tomebound Arcanist alive for a while, it can wreak havoc on an opponent. He's fast and can have a Bodyguard, so, it might work.
From everything I'm seeing, Civilized and Wild will be the favorites for a little while. I'm sure Borderlands is far from out of the picture, but, at least, the Eternal Blade won't be on every table.
Dave or any table...
IMO the Eternal Blade is far from dead.Â
+4 for INI
Bounding Assault
ATT and DAM Boost
Save Bonus to warband
Moment of Perfect Mind to DEF save
Too much goodness to pair with all the goodies of AtG and UH.Â
Now, pending if and what the All Stars bring, the EB will be on a few tables.Â
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Sirohk, the Bard of Heartstone
Knight of the Rahshasa's
And Crusader of the Zakya, Ak'chazar, Naztharune, and Naityan Rakshasa's | |
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Lord_rock
Underboss
1777 Posts
Portland OR
| | 07/02/2008 4:36 PM |
| It is still too much "Wow what a great civ piece. Better in BL with the EB. Wow what a great wild piece. Still better in BL with EB". And if it's human or elf you'll keep mounting it up and watch the dmg continue to rise.
like sirohk said-
+4 init
bounding assualt (breaks normal movement rules)
Att and Dmg boost (+10% to hit and +30-50% dmg on up to 3 pieces against your opponents key pieces)
Def boost to warband
Almost a free negate att from moment of perfect mind.
Mount up the skullcleave warriors and swing away! | |
Rock Bottom Pricing:
Arcane Archer 30, Centaur Hero 67, Human Cleric of Bane 25, Gold Champion 34, Death Knight 52, Goblin Blackblade 9, Silentwolf Goblin 7, Orc Raider 10, Dwarf axefighter 9, Healer 9, Thaskor 65, Aspect of Demogorgon 71, Ogre 9, Fire Giant 79, Human Wanderer 7, Drunken Master 18, Barghest 12, Longstider Barbarian 27, Longtooth Barbarian 22, Frost Giant 76, Ravenous Vampire 42, Large Earth Elemental: priceless | |
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Kevizoid
Sergeant
373 Posts
Southern California
| | 07/02/2008 9:08 PM |
| I've been testing the new stuff. Like alot. Everything AtG gave too BL works better in Civi (opposite I know) for the championships. EB just does not do the same kind of damage it did before and on these maps. The only people who play EB are people who didn't bother testing or didn't have time, and just decided to play the same old stuff they know. So yeah there will be some now that I think about it, they won't come close to winning though, because they don't know what's good anymore.
I also don't think Wild Mages will show up because of arcane archers which just absolutely slaughter them. (Yes things do beat AA as well) But they might show if people just play them because they didn't have time to look at things closely. Again I don't think they will win.
On second thought...bring all those please....
all of this is subject to change should Allstars become legal. I'm expecting they are not going to be. Like what if you suddenly needed 4 orc champs to do well at the champs? yeah that's stupid they won't do that. | |
SoCal Colluder | |
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