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Wrackspawn
ChristopherGroves
Warlord
6093 Posts
    
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Wrackspawn
ChristopherGroves
Warlord
6093 Posts
| | 11/14/2005 3:47 PM |
| Where to start?
Chaotic Evil has been largely dominant for a number of years ... and has done so with relatively old pieces. A CE one-of-each Quad with a Tiefling is still a multi-headed and versatile beast packing tons of damage output and hit points. With the Tielfling the larger pieces stand ground and do not rout a reasonably decent amount of the time and with two commanders (Eye and Tiefling) you have a chance to rally and keep those points on the board.
The move to eight figures gives CE some interesting choices ... heck you can include a single piece of tech costing in the teens somewhere in a quad now ... and that will be interesting. The move to eight also allows you to really field a strong commander and three hitters without running less than the maximum number of activations. Figures such as Ryld and the Lich Necromancer will only get more popular.
Remember, these toolkits are truly the "core" items a player should have. There are plenty of other "close" creatures or fun things to include in your warband.
Some Gambles for the Future
The kit above includes the Death Slaad, Hunched Giant and Grimlock Barbarian. We're making some assumptions and guesses based on the limited play since Underdark about the usefulness of these figures. The Grimlock fits a nice price-point ... the Death Slaad has at least one scary build that's been successful ... the Hunched Giant has a mess of HP and high-level that provides a much more resilient CE hitter.
The Gray Render is a piece with excellent efficiency; it remains to be seen how much of a drawback his limitations are in reality. Several folks I know consider it a sleeper.
Orcs and more orcs
We put the Orc Warrior, Mountain Orc and Orc Skeleton on the list ... but don't forget about the Brute, Raider, Spearfighter, Savage, Berserker, candle-maker, farmer, baby-sitter and politician. Nearly every orc produced is VERY effective for the points and with the Eye and others boosting abilities of orcs or humanoids in general all over the place.
Just haven't made the cut
Some figures have the core stats but just don't fit into a good build. Maybe it is because they can't be paired with the right other units or maybe it is because they have a weakness that existing CE can't quite overcome. Just as the Young Master was on the outside looking in until the Gith Monk was available CE has some pieces that are close but simply don't fit in just yet.
Against that backdrop there are a number of pieces. Commander-wise the Yuan-Ti Abomination is a beast ... but really unusable at this point in time. Nice speed, nice, AC, nice HP, nice commander rating ... no good synergy. Maybe he'll pair up with an Arachnomancer for some poison-fun bands, but right now that's all he is. The Orc Wolf Shaman also falls into this category. Yes, there are some nice animals and bests but just not enough to fully capitalize on this piece.
The Chuul has great stats and would be played ALOT in LE ... but its shortcomings can't be marginalized effectively in CE. The Draegloth simply doesn't do enough damage. I'm always going to be toting Lareth the Beautiful around in my box, but I do so knowing he's sub-optimal to the Lich.
The Gnoll Sgt is a nice figure that has been largely eclipsed by the Bugbear Champ ... the hyenas are a nice inclusion but not enough to catapult him into a requirement for your toolkit. The Drow Wizard is in the same spot ... the Bugbear Champ is much sturdier and in a faction that doesnt' tend to be overprotective of their commanders this is a big deal. Still, both could see additional play.
Fun Techie Pieces
CE has plenty of fun pieces in this area but none of them are required. The Arcane Guard, Winter Wolf, Quasit, etc. can be fun and quirky pieces. Need an AoE cone? Sure!
I'm also a BIG fan of the Cultist of the Dragon; doubtofbuddha and I went | |
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memphisto
Warrior
213 Posts
| | 11/14/2005 4:05 PM |
| | Thanks for the final installment of helpful toolkits. I'm pleased to see the Death Slaad included. In time, I believe this piece will move to the primary section as more and more lawful bands are played and chaos hammer increases in utility in the 8-figure/maps era. | |
Completed trades: arbados
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| Hero of Skirmish
doubtofbuddha
Commander
3371 Posts
| | 11/14/2005 4:08 PM |
| I agree. I am just hesitant to put it (and the Mounted Drow Patrol) into the Primary Toolkit until we see a bit more testing. As it is, I think he is a very promising figure, and I don't relish facing him with my Lawful Good builds.
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I am not gone. | |
| 2005 D&D Miniatures Champion
Fenris
Sergeant
974 Posts
| | 11/14/2005 4:16 PM |
| Excellent analysis as always. [:)]
I think you probably don't need two Trogs or Chokers; I haven't seen a serious band that includes multiples of those. I would reduce both to QTY:1 and add the Taer. Generally, if you need stench-tech and you have 7 points, you take a Trog; if you have 8 points, you take a Taer. | |
Read my championship tournament report.
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Wrackspawn
ChristopherGroves
Warlord
6093 Posts
| | 11/14/2005 4:28 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Fenris
Excellent analysis as always. [:)]
I think you probably don't need two Trogs or Chokers; I haven't seen a serious band that includes multiples of those. I would reduce both to QTY:1 and add the Taer. Generally, if you need stench-tech and you have 7 points, you take a Trog; if you have 8 points, you take a Taer.
I personally think that regardless of the various merits of the individual pieces you should keep around your favorite single piece in each single-digit point bracket. Sometimes you've just got X points left right? So my recommendation would be to keep around a 4-pointer, 6-pointer, 8-pointer, etc. You never know what points you need to fill. Which ones ... well, that's up to you ... kinda like the plethora of orcs. Besides the archer, none of the are "bad". | |
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IanB
Commander
3112 Posts
| | 11/14/2005 4:43 PM |
| | I think the taer warrants mention in addition to the trog simply because it is cold-immune and thus you don't have to worry about it getting breathed on by chraals. Maybe Trog/Taer should have a combined entry if the list is too long. | |
Anson on WotC boards | |
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Felagund
Sergeant
922 Posts
| | 11/14/2005 4:52 PM |
| | Nice, as always. I would argue the the LRD is more of a secondary piece than a primary piece, however. If you do keep him as primary, then I think the Lich should get bumped up. I just see the Lich as being more consistently competitive. | |
Champion of Gnomes | |
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kaiserluger
Warrior
319 Posts
| | 11/14/2005 4:55 PM |
| Great writeup.
Perhaps an honorable mention for the Drider Sorcerer, who has had his number retired. | |
Kaiserluger - | |
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robbdaman
Underboss
2380 Posts
| | 11/14/2005 4:58 PM |
| So nothing other than Ryld since Archfiends is primary? Probably true. Although there's a lot of options that exist most aren't as cost effective. Balor should get some type of mention even if he is very new to the pool and hasn't found a perfect home just yet. He's almost as strong as a Large Red for use in the current meta. Not sure I'd put Hyena in as it's ooc without a beastmaster so I just don't think they'd be as useful a play as other fodder. Granted with a beastmaster it's worth it. Bringing me to another thought that the Orc Wolf Shaman deserves secondary mention. Yes he pales in comparison to the Greenfang but he can make Dire Bears do 20 damage with their crazy attack bonuses. Add in an Orc Shaman with a Dire Bat and Monitor Lizards and you have some very cheap creatures that can dish out some serious damage for a reasonable attack bonus. Each 6 point Monitor Lizard becomes 20HP creature with a +7 attack that deals 15 damage. It's a cheap and easier to get warband design for new players to get ahold of. Just something to think about.
R~ | |
Champion of the Titan
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Wrackspawn
ChristopherGroves
Warlord
6093 Posts
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robbdaman
Underboss
2380 Posts
| | 11/14/2005 5:51 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by ChristopherGroves
Start tearing up the tournament scene w/ the Wolf Shaman and it'll go in the toolkit. This is a living thing; it will get updated overtime.
They hyenas, on the other hand, are relatively common pieces. Seriously. Go back and check the qualifier tournament bands and see how many showed up. 4 points for speed 10 is a no-brainer.
You mean 4 points for an OOC speed 2 unless you're playing an Orc Druid or Gnoll Sergeant. Unless that many players didn't know what they were playing? You're adding Choker, and several pieces that are so new they haven't won anything yet but you can't add in the Orc Wolf Shaman? Okay....
R~ | |
Champion of the Titan
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YRM_DM
Sergeant
905 Posts
| | 11/14/2005 5:55 PM |
| | You guys forgot the Fiendish Praying Mantis, Carrion Crawler, and Large Monstrous Spider. | |
Completed good trades with Demagogue, PigSnot, DoB, and Alepulp.
I know you can hear MY thoughts... Meow, Meow, Meow, Meow, Meow, Meow, Meow, Meow... | |
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Gristlemane
Sergeant
623 Posts
| | 11/14/2005 6:47 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by robbdaman
Bringing me to another thought that the Orc Wolf Shaman deserves secondary mention. Yes he pales in comparison to the Greenfang but he can make Dire Bears do 20 damage with their crazy attack bonuses.
If your opponent has only one creature adjacent to the bear. That's a lot harder to pull off with the bear than the Timber Wolf.
quote:
Originally posted by robbdaman
Add in an Orc Shaman with a Dire Bat and Monitor Lizards and you have some very cheap creatures that can dish out some serious damage for a reasonable attack bonus.
I prefer the wolves myself, though I haven't tried the Monitor Lizard out with the OWS.
quote:
Originally posted by robbdaman
It's a cheap and easier to get warband design for new players to get ahold of.
I've tried OWS + Orc Druid + Dire Bears a lot. They just don't compare well to GFD + Dire Bear + HEBI. The dire bear is a great meatshield, but it just doesn't quite cut it when it comes to damage output. They are worth playing, but they don't belong on a CE must have list. | |
It's deja vu all over again. | |
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Wrackspawn
ChristopherGroves
Warlord
6093 Posts
| | 11/14/2005 6:57 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by robbdaman
quote:
Originally posted by ChristopherGroves
Start tearing up the tournament scene w/ the Wolf Shaman and it'll go in the toolkit. This is a living thing; it will get updated overtime.
They hyenas, on the other hand, are relatively common pieces. Seriously. Go back and check the qualifier tournament bands and see how many showed up. 4 points for speed 10 is a no-brainer.
You mean 4 points for an OOC speed 2 unless you're playing an Orc Druid or Gnoll Sergeant. Unless that many players didn't know what they were playing? You're adding Choker, and several pieces that are so new they haven't won anything yet but you can't add in the Orc Wolf Shaman? Okay....
R~
The Choker already sees play by some of the better players ... and in an 8-figure world the extra activations it provides will only get better. The Orc Wolf Shaman, while a nice piece, is certainly something you can play ... but I don't think it's a must-acquire piece.
Remember, the filter we're using is 200 points, 8 figures, maps and no-speed-2. Certainly some are predictions based on initial results with the figures (Mounted Drow Patrol) but that's based on the existance of more tangible information. As far as I know not many folks have cracked the nut which is the Orc Wolf Shaman yet.
Remember though, things could change and we plan on keeping the kits current. Just like the Gith Monk has made the Young Master a key part of the LG toolkit the Orc Wolf Shaman is primed and waiting for the right bit of synergy. | |
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robbdaman
Underboss
2380 Posts
| | 11/14/2005 7:18 PM |
| I don't think I even own a Choker and I know I've never seen one played. That 14 points could be used so much more effectively. FYI you put it as costing 16 points. Still what about Balor?
R~ | |
Champion of the Titan
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Wrackspawn
ChristopherGroves
Warlord
6093 Posts
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Goldmoon
Sergeant
986 Posts
| | 11/14/2005 7:57 PM |
|
Greatwork for all the four toolkit.[:)]
But I am surprise not to see Balor been included[?]. I know from the pre-release, those who used him complianed about him routing half of the time, but honestly, he got quite a nice stat. | |
"HA! Activate take 10 and you cant hit me."
"Once I start, I will not flater."
"BLOOD make the grass grow!" | |
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robbdaman
Underboss
2380 Posts
| | 11/14/2005 8:09 PM |
| My main reasoning for wondering about Balor is that the Steel Predator was included as part of the LE toolkit and Balor is as useful as it is. They rout about the same amount. [:p]
R~ | |
Champion of the Titan
******************************************************************************************************************************************************
Successful trades with: Tickparasite, Iyceman, Faragdar The Wise's friend, avrivah, Drakkengi, brucemc, Krush, maniacal_mini_monger, hung4treason, Gandy, NarlethDrider, Kunimatyu, etc, etc, blah, blah, blah..... | |
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kaiserluger
Warrior
319 Posts
| | 11/14/2005 8:31 PM |
| I don't see any reason to include the Balor or Orc Shaman at this point either.
The only conspicuous absences are Drow Cleric of Lloth and to a lesser extent the Hill Giant, but the Hill Giant was effectively crushed by the JA. There may yet still be a place for the DCOL, but I don't feel strongly enough to campaign for its addition especially at its market price.
This is a great list. Sadly, for a new player CE remains the most prohibitive cost of entry alignment. If you are a newer player focus on ryld, tiefling and red samurais to get the most bang for your buck. | |
Kaiserluger - | |
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Jhonwolf
Sneak
72 Posts
| | 11/14/2005 8:54 PM |
| | I am currently toying with the DCoL. I find its commander effect quite useful so far when using the Drow Patrol or Lolth's sting.There is alot of things with DR around and the +5dmg helps overcoming it. That said she's quite fragile and will rout early at times due to low hp...Breath weapons just tear her apart. While her cost is prohibitive, she does seem to have a good impact in my games so far. | |
Completed Trades:
-Eric the God; 7 miniatures, 5/5
-LCS; 1 miniature+tiles, 5/5 | |
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Wrackspawn
ChristopherGroves
Warlord
6093 Posts
| | 11/14/2005 9:28 PM |
| Ah yes ... As a non-commander the Steel Predator can receive commander benefits. Both have great amounts of resistances, etc. but the Steel Predator simply has more ... but the steel predator also has a 40-damage swift cone it can deliver from 20 squares away with a DC of 20 and of a damage type that is rarely resisted. 40 HP is, as you probably realize, a magical break-point for many of the core pieces in forcing a morale check. Take 40 damage (or worse, 65 if you manage a successful pounce) and you're passing lots of magical break-points and forcing lots of morale checks. Put that in a faction that is already equiped with other autodamage sources and the ability to put the entire opposing warband out of command and you've got a recipe for carnage.
It isn't just the figure on its own remember ... it has alot to do with what is around to pair with it and how it interracts with its faction. Consider they rout about the same yet LE can field a commander to give it a +4 on that rout check ... and tha commander can also fight reasonably well.
Frankly put, if a Steel Predator band shows up you know that piece is going to do some serious damage. The Balor isn't yet as reliable and scary.
Now, if the Balor was independent and could, say, benefit from Lareth's commander effect or the Tiefling Captain's ... well ... he'd be a beast. | |
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evil_boy
Sneak
157 Posts
| | 11/15/2005 12:20 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by ChristopherGroves
Ah yes ... As a non-commander the Steel Predator can receive commander benefits. Both have great amounts of resistances, etc. but the Steel Predator simply has more ... but the steel predator also has a 40-damage swift cone it can deliver from 20 squares away with a DC of 20 and of a damage type that is rarely resisted. 40 HP is, as you probably realize, a magical break-point for many of the core pieces in forcing a morale check. Take 40 damage (or worse, 65 if you manage a successful pounce) and you're passing lots of magical break-points and forcing lots of morale checks. Put that in a faction that is already equiped with other autodamage sources and the ability to put the entire opposing warband out of command and you've got a recipe for carnage.
It isn't just the figure on its own remember ... it has alot to do with what is around to pair with it and how it interracts with its faction. Consider they rout about the same yet LE can field a commander to give it a +4 on that rout check ... and tha commander can also fight reasonably well.
Frankly put, if a Steel Predator band shows up you know that piece is going to do some serious damage. The Balor isn't yet as reliable and scary.
Now, if the Balor was independent and could, say, benefit from Lareth's commander effect or the Tiefling Captain's ... well ... he'd be a beast.
Well, actually the steel kitty can't use the commander's rating to help it's rout check.
But ya, the steel kitty is better than the balor simply cos it is a highly mobile and extremely tough delivery system for arguably the best cone in the game. Catching 2-3 of your opponent's hitters in the cone gives you a HUGE advantage. And the sheer psychological effect of anticipating the cone may force your opponent to play too conservatively or make a mistake. | |
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General_Boy
Sneak
59 Posts
| | 11/15/2005 12:42 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by evil_boy
Well, actually the steel kitty can't use the commander's rating to help it's rout check.
But ya, the steel kitty is better than the balor simply cos it is a highly mobile and extremely tough delivery system for arguably the best cone in the game. Catching 2-3 of your opponent's hitters in the cone gives you a HUGE advantage. And the sheer psychological effect of anticipating the cone may force your opponent to play too conservatively or make a mistake.
I believe he was referring to Tyrannical Morale as the way of boosting the morale save, not the CR. | |
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evil_boy
Sneak
157 Posts
| | 11/15/2005 12:53 AM |
| Nice article, as always...
Some points though. The ogre ravager's quantity should probably be reduced to 1, any band using 2 of them is treading on very thin ice, it just has too many bad matchups. The orc champ's quantity can be increased to 4, after all my favourite fun band is EoG+4 orc champ band... just kidding... [:D]
The red sam: while on paper it works well against chraals and JAs, it would be worthwhile for new players to note that a 1-on-1 match up is actually rather equal, and thus the chraal and JAs may win since they are cheaper.
The chraal, while seemingly being at a huge disadvantage, actually does quite well. It's high AC and hp means it lasts long, while its high DC cone, deathburst and high-enough attack bonuses on both attacks (to hit the red sam at least) means it can dish out as good as it gets. Even if it does fall to a red sam, the sam is probably only at 15hp or less...
As for the JA, rare are any bands that include them without a couatl. And against such a band, it takes the red sam 5 whacks to kill the fearless JA, while it also takes the JA 5 whacks to kill the red sam, which may rout even before that. The cheaper JA thus comes out on top.
Tiefling cap's position may be threatened by the presence of rikka and more importantly the wizard tac. If such pieces see play often enough, a competitve CE warband cannot afford to include such weak commanders in its band, possibly pushing the cap to secondary status and increasing the importance of figures like ryld or the lich.
Some pieces I wasn't expecting to be in the toolkit:
Choker, for one. I suppose it's only real utility is to go above 8 activations, but I'm not sure if the 14 points couldn't be better spent elsewhere. If it cost like 10 points or less, I'll play it every time...
The harpy: despite what kiddoc said about this piece, it has just never done anything for me. With 8 activations, there's so much less fodder to stun, and stunning fodder sometimes doesn;t really do anything for you anyway. The big hitters are likely to pass the stun DC, and including a hefty 15pt piece just for the small, oft chance of big hitters being stunned may not be a good call. Including other pieces like the trog and cursed spirit to try and make the harpy work only means that much more points not spent on another mainline hitter.
Grimlock barb: I like the piece, and would like to make it work, but the rather pathetic attack bonuses and 60hp just kills it. For titan warbands that do not have much points left, some may try to squeeze in 2 of them, but I'm not sure if a single bigger hitter + other tech would be a better choice. At least the bigger hitter stays longer, is more likely to pass it's MC, and hits so much more consistently than the grimlock barbs.
Hyena: I'll much rather the timber wolf than the hyena. Difficult means it must rush an enemy it can see if OOC. The timber wolf can simply run to a victory srea and stay put, while the hyena may have to rush out of the victory area because it's difficult. And if you're using a beastmaster anyway, without difficult, you can afford to leave the wolf in the victory area and let your beastmaster roam rather than limiting the commander by having it babysit the hyena.
Orc skeleton: As fodder, I'll much rather an orc warrior or an abyssal maw. For the lich's CE, I'll much rather the sturdy gnoll skellie. I just don;t see any place for the orc skellie in a faction that has such other options.
But overall, a very informative article and a good read. Thanks for all the effort! Just thought I'll add a few points for all the newer aspiring CE players out there... [:D]
P.S: I agree with adding the taer, it's a toss-up between it and the trog depending on how many points you have left.
P.P.S: I don;t see the reason for all the clamouring for the orc wolf shaman. It is expensive, has a lousy special ability, can't fight with such a | |
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evil_boy
Sneak
157 Posts
| | 11/15/2005 12:55 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by General_Boy
I believe he was referring to Tyrannical Morale as the way of boosting the morale save, not the CR.
I should have guessed chris wouldn't make a silly mistake like that...
[:D] | |
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robbdaman
Underboss
2380 Posts
| | 11/15/2005 2:07 AM |
| Keep in mind that commanders can use other commander's Command bonuses for their Morale Check so effectively Balor can save as often when paired with a Tiefling or Ryld (or even better with a DCoL but that's not likely) as the Steel Pred can with a Skullsplitter or HBG.
I'm beginning to wonder if people know what Difficult and Wild abilities mean. [:0]
R~ | |
Champion of the Titan
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Draxx
Sergeant
376 Posts
| | 11/15/2005 2:37 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by robbdaman
Keep in mind that commanders can use other commander's Command bonuses for their Morale Check so effectively Balor can save as often when paired with a Tiefling or Ryld (or even better with a DCoL but that's not likely) as the Steel Pred can with a Skullsplitter or HBG.
the issue there though is thats more pts spent on an additional commander who just looks pretty, and detracting from balor support pts. the issue with the balor is that it will likely loose any slugfest vs an equal pts worth of beaters piled onto it.
one mini that i think might be worth tinkering more with than the hunched giant is the draegoloth. speed 10, hard hitting, and conceal could prove to be interesting. if nothing else i like the speed and 2 better attack bonuses over the hunched giant. | |
WotC boards SN: Randolph Carter
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| DDM Australian Champion 2005
psistef
Underboss
1572 Posts
| | 11/15/2005 5:04 AM |
| It's all a question of synergy.
I think it's safe to assume that the suggestestion of a Hyena is for bands including a beastmaster, or in a post-OoC speed 2 environment.
Balor? Orc Wolf Shaman? I like them, but have yet to see them proven.
I'd just like to give a shout out to those who have put these toolkits together - I've played CE like, three times, but stuff like this leaves me energized to play this game. | |
Champion of the Prestige Class where mages focus on telekenesis and start throwing people into the ceiling and uber stuff like that.
Desirer of a Commander Effect in CG that grants Sidestep to followers with a ranged attack. | |
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Avatar of the Tank
Newtoncain
Commander
2985 Posts
Land of 10,000 taxes
| | 11/15/2005 7:38 AM |
| Nice work doubtofbuddha. Were does Lareth fit into all of this or did I mis something?
Once the 8 fig limits hits, I think he'll make a rebound. | |
They just don't know what's good in life...Conan, tell them what is good in life.
To rip the boosters. To count the minis spilled out before you, and to hear the indifference of the women... | |
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Wrackspawn
ChristopherGroves
Warlord
6093 Posts
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rhane
Underboss
1412 Posts
| | 11/15/2005 9:25 AM |
| | Very nice fellers...thanx much for taking the time to put all 4 toolkits together. I think this will be very helpful to people who are just starting out, as well as those of us who think we know whats going on. | |
Rhane
"The focus is sharp in the city..."
Have/Want List
Reference thread
Avatar Thread
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Aesnath
Underboss
1358 Posts
Augusta, GA
| | 11/15/2005 9:37 AM |
| Ok, well, I gotta ask, 3 Death Slaadi ? I'm not saying he's not good (quite the contrary), however, 3? I certainly haven't tried it, or seen it run yet, but it does seem like a bunch of point on three low damage creatures who depend on rend.
Also, the Balor simply doesn't do enough to warrant his inclusion in this list. He deals 35 damage on a successful full attack, has an iffy CE, and no Commander rating to speak of, all for 95 points. | |
**Note: Unless otherwise stated all my minis are unbagged**
My reference thread is at: http://www.maxminis.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=12765
Graduate school is swollowing my soul!!!!
Champion of the Raumathari Battlemage!
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Zaukrie
Underboss
2007 Posts
| | 11/15/2005 9:38 AM |
| I love the harpy, but I think any piece whose utility is primarily against low level, low cost filler is likely to decrease in utility with the shift to 8 figures. That's why I'm hoping to see more 100 point games in the future.
To those arguing aginst the LRD being tier one, I respectfully disgree. It flies, has decent AC, lots o' hp, does decent damage, has a breath weapon...and many people rode it to qualify (including myself and all 4 qualifiers from MN). I'd have to add flight to doubt's list of why it is useful. Most of the rest of CE does not fly and with magma and pits, flight becomes even more useful. | |
Fastest dropping DCI ranking on record!
Champion of Juiblex | |
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lalato
Underboss
1546 Posts
Urbana, IL
| | 11/15/2005 10:21 AM |
| I beat doubtofbuddha last night with a Balor band. I think on the right map (note I said map, not tiles) the Balor can do quite well. Oh... and I couldn't have done it without the Orc Druid. Big MVP bonus to the Orc Druid.
However, I wouldn't include the Balor in the core kit quite yet. He's still waiting on one more Grimlock Barbarian style hitter... Preferably one that does a little less damage and has higher HP/AC. The Grimlocks are nice, but they go down pretty fast. Their only saving grace is that when teamed up with the Balor, most people tend to ignore them in order to take out the Balor.
One thing I did notice, however... the Balor does not like fearless creatures. The Balor hates it when his commander effect is useless. ;)
--sam | |
I'm in Urbana, IL | |
| Hero of Skirmish
doubtofbuddha
Commander
3371 Posts
| | 11/15/2005 10:32 AM |
| | Pshaw, I made one mistake and then you got lucky with me missing on the Marut (The Marut hates ones) and then you getting a lucky hit with the grimlock's secondary attack. Next time lalato! Next time! | |
I am not gone. | |
|
YRM_DM
Sergeant
905 Posts
| | 11/15/2005 10:57 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Aesnath
Ok, well, I gotta ask, 3 Death Slaadi ? I'm not saying he's not good (quite the contrary), however, 3? I certainly haven't tried it, or seen it run yet, but it does seem like a bunch of point on three low damage creatures who depend on rend.
Also, the Balor simply doesn't do enough to warrant his inclusion in this list. He deals 35 damage on a successful full attack, has an iffy CE, and no Commander rating to speak of, all for 95 points.
With more and more Lawful Warbands in the metagame, the Slaadi offer up 3 big area effect blasts. Half your foes or more (lawful bands are popular now) are vulnerable to three first turn "fireballs".
Against Chaotic Good or Chaotic Evil, the number of units that enjoy running up and basing a Slaadi aren't high.
With all 3 Regenerating, they're especially tough for lower damage units to finish off... and a lot of high damage units will miss them some of the time. | |
Completed good trades with Demagogue, PigSnot, DoB, and Alepulp.
I know you can hear MY thoughts... Meow, Meow, Meow, Meow, Meow, Meow, Meow, Meow... | |
| Hero of Skirmish
doubtofbuddha
Commander
3371 Posts
| | 11/15/2005 11:01 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by YRM_DM
With more and more Lawful Warbands in the metagame, the Slaadi offer up 3 big area effect blasts. Half your foes or more (lawful bands are popular now) are vulnerable to three first turn "fireballs".
Against Chaotic Good or Chaotic Evil, the number of units that enjoy running up and basing a Slaadi aren't high.
With all 3 Regenerating, they're especially tough for lower damage units to finish off... and a lot of high damage units will miss them some of the time.
On top of that they are alot easier to get then many of the older hitters, and can make a pretty affordable (and tough) warband for newer players. | |
I am not gone. | |
| Hero of Skirmish
doubtofbuddha
Commander
3371 Posts
| | 11/15/2005 11:57 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by evil_boy
Nice article, as always...
The red sam: while on paper it works well against chraals and JAs, it would be worthwhile for new players to note that a 1-on-1 match up is actually rather equal, and thus the chraal and JAs may win since they are cheaper.
It works better against Chraals than any other Chaotic Evil hitter. Its saving throws are high enough that it is much more likely to be able to resist the death burst and breath weapon than the other CE hitters (except the Ogre Ravager), it has a higher attack bonus than the other CE hitters (except for the Eye, but the Eye takes 5 damage every time he hits the Chraal), and thanks to its fire damage, its going to be hitting them for as much damage as the other CE hitters. In total, I think this makes it about as worthy of an opponent for the Chraal as you are going to find among the CE hitter array at this point in time.
Your points are pertinent regarding the JA, however, the Red Samurai has the advantage in speed, thus allowing it to have a bit more of control over where the battle is going to take place and its breath weapon. Granted, with Couatl back-up the Justice Archon is likely to be able to avoid the breath weapon, but it is certainly possible to get multiple Justice Archons in the cone, especially if they are all bunched up around the Couatl for the energy protection. Also, this is where strategy comes in. If I am running Red Samurais, against a band with a Couatl, I am probably going to be using them to go after the Couatl rather than the Justice Archons. The benefit is too great not to.
The orc skeleton is in the toolkit because it provides a 10 damage option for lich fodder creation. This can be huge when dealing with CG and CE low-AC hitter bands and against things like Justice Archons and Rikka who are almost immune to 5 damage guys. In many situations the difference between 15 and 5 hit points is negligible, in others it can be huge. This is why its important to keep both Orc Skeletons and Gnoll Skeletons in your toolkit, so you can properly adapt to whatever sort of situation you have at hand.
The Hyena is there basically as a complement to the Orc Druid, which I still see included in quite a few bands. In situations where you are using the Orc Druid, I can see very few reasons not to include the Hyena (unless you have 5 points left, as you noted) due to the sheer utility that a speed 10, 4 point CE fodder provides.
You are probably right about the Harpy. I expect he will disappear from the next toolkit, but he is being kept as a legacy piece for the time being. | |
I am not gone. | |
|
neilasaurus
Sneak
134 Posts
| | 11/15/2005 6:54 PM |
| | You didn't list the set for Ryld. Abberations for anyone wondering. | |
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