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bshugg
Underboss
1833 Posts
    
 | | 02/08/2006 8:25 AM |
| Last night I was pondering some of the metagame changes recently, plus going over some basic warband concepts to see what ideas they could spawn. One in particular I was analyzing was:
4 Helmed Horrors
Snig +3 minions
Theres 2 basic ways you can create a warband. You can play a diverse band that minimizes bad match ups because its using different types of threats. Or you can play a focused band that does one thing really good and attempts to overwhelm your opponent with too many threats of one kind. The advantage of focused bands, is if you get a good match up, its often REALLY good. The disadvantage is if you get a bad matchup its often REALLY bad. There are different levels of focus and diversity for sure, but I just wanted to lay this out as a "rough" concept. An example between focused and diverse would be:
Focused:
4 Red Samurai
Tiefling
6 Orc Warriors
Diverse:
Eye of Gruumsh
Red Samurai
Ogre Ravager
Orc Champ
Tiefling
5 orc warriors
I'm not a huge fan of the 4 Helmed horror band because it violates one of my personal warband building rules. I like my warbands to ALWAYS have a chance no matter what I face. I almost always go for the diverse band over the focused, even when it may not be the right choice to do so. I would rather lessen my good match ups to strengthen my weak match ups. Then it just comes down to outplaying and outrolling my opponents.
So with that in mind, I tried tweaking the 4 hitter + snig band. I liked the ranged attacks of the horrors so wanted to try to increase that. Also I wanted to minimize the impact of DR comboed with elemental resistance. The Horrors only doing 5 damage in some matchups is troubling. So I began to number crunch, tossing in figures and pulling others out. After a while I came up with:
Snig
Gauth
Gauth
Duergar Champion
Duergar Champion
Chraal
Goblin Skirmisher
Goblin Skirmisher
Goblin Skirmisher
It didn't look right, so I doublechecked the numbers. 199. By cheating with snig to sneak in a commander and 4 activations, you can fit in 3 decent hitters and 2 Gauths. The band is very weak in the commander rating, but having 2 gauths and 9 activations means you don't have to be the aggressive player and will often out activate your opponent. Even losing hitters to bad morale rolls doesn't hurt too much, as you have a lot of damage redundancy.
Anyways, its just something I was messing with that could be suprising. I really like it in an LE heavy field, but couatls could be problematic. Let me know what you think. Maybe cheating on commanders and activations can lead to some powerful concepts. | |
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XAos
Underboss
2413 Posts
London
| | 02/08/2006 9:48 AM |
| A warband with 4 helmed horrors, needs a Kobold sorcerer as commander. The Magic weapon spells deal with most of the bad matchups for Helmed Horrors.
There are about a dozen figures with DR:5+resist fire which can beat helmed horrors without magic weapons. And only one (Iron Golem) that is more cost-effective if they have magic weapons. But Iron Golems have the problem of "Requires Commander". So the helmed horrors still have a chance even against an Iron Golem warband.
Couatl+Marut can also be a problem for HHs, the best counter tactic being to fly the HH past the Marut & kill the Couatls first.
quote:
Originally posted by bshugg
I like my warbands to ALWAYS have a chance no matter what I face.
4 helmed horrors & a Kobold sorcerer always have a chance, no matter what you face.[:0]
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Vrecknidj
Warlord
10493 Posts
United States
| | 02/08/2006 9:51 AM |
| I have been doing the same testing. I've played about 25 matches either with or against 4 Helmed Horrors + Snig. The band is amazingly resilient. There are very few Chaotic bands that have any hope against it, and several recent Lawful Good bands have problems with it (though the Marut + two Couatls has beaten it regularly in my testing).
Snig, in the current LE, is not too different from the Drow Sergeant in the LRB band. In that band, thanks to the 12-figure rule at the time, had three very solid pieces and just the right amount of activation support to make it maddening against many opponents.
Snig + 3 Skirmishers does indeed mean that you can get 4 solid pieces, or 5 nearly-solid pieces into a band, and shoot for 8 or 9 activations and have a lot of power.
I've tested some triple-Duergar Champion bands and they've done remarkably well. The more Duergars you have, the more conceal rolls your opponent is forced to make. The more such rolls there are, the more times that a hit will be a miss, and so the more effective it becomes.
The weakness is Snig. But, this is only a problem with the Chraal, really, and, if you play the band right, the Chraal(s) will have to be dealt with independently anyway, obviating the need to get Snig involved, reducing the chances of him being hurt.
In the Helmed Horror band, as others have mentioned, Snig can pass into the great beyond--you really only need him for the first two rounds, after that, you might as well put him into the fight and try to get some damage from him (his attacks aren't so bad for such a runt).
I have also tested some dual Gauth bands (I posted a few a while back). But, if Couatls keep showing up in huge numbers, then the Gauth's effectiveness might be curtailed enough to prevent two from being a wise choice. However, if you are running the band you posted, and you face few or no Couatls, you'll probably do very well. The dual-Gauth band is murder on a Chraal band. The other problem with the Gauth is that (it seems) that the average level of the skirmish piece has gone up. I'm sure this is a result of the switch from 12 to 8 figures. But, it means that the Gauth's paralysis will be less frequently successful. However, it probably also means that when it is successful, it will pay off handsomely.
I think Snig is a very important piece for successful LE bands these days, he must be considered when building an LE band, and if he isn't going to be used, there has to be a good reason why.
Dave | |
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sienar
Sergeant
640 Posts
| | 02/08/2006 10:14 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by bshugg
I'm not a huge fan of the 4 Helmed horror band because it violates one of my personal warband building rules. I like my warbands to ALWAYS have a chance no matter what I face. I almost always go for the diverse band over the focused, even when it may not be the right choice to do so. I would rather lessen my good match ups to strengthen my weak match ups. Then it just comes down to outplaying and outrolling my opponents.
I'm glad to see somebody else feels this way (not about the Quad HH band, necessarily), but diversity over focused. I, too, tend to build that way.
On the concept of the cheap, weak commander like Snig letting you sneak in extra hitters/tech for, as you say, potentially powerful concepts, that is very valid. I used to have a lot of luck in 100 points running Snig as my only commander and still achieving up to 12 activations. This idea will likely show even more as Wardrums rules happen (presuming no appreciable penalty for movement out of command) in warbands made entirely of constructs/undead, or Snig-based like these ideas. | |
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johnny.quest
Underboss
1386 Posts
| | 02/08/2006 10:31 AM |
| | I think your presumption is correct. | | | |
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rhane
Underboss
1412 Posts
| | 02/08/2006 10:36 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by bshugg
Snig
Gauth
Gauth
Duergar Champion
Duergar Champion
Chraal
Goblin Skirmisher
Goblin Skirmisher
Goblin Skirmisher
I like this approach - particularly the disclaimer about the low saves. Its obviously a problem, but you did a good job of pointing out that your band can survive a missed morale save.
I would humbly submit that dropping the Chraal for a third Duergar, and adding another Sniglet may be even stronger. Primarily because you take away a huge incentive for your opponent to go commander hunting.
Anyway, nice find...now let the Snig+5 warbands start flowing in! | |
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Aravis
Underboss
1155 Posts
| | 02/08/2006 10:51 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by rhane
quote:
Originally posted by bshugg
Snig
Gauth
Gauth
Duergar Champion
Duergar Champion
Chraal
Goblin Skirmisher
Goblin Skirmisher
Goblin Skirmisher
I like this approach - particularly the disclaimer about the low saves. Its obviously a problem, but you did a good job of pointing out that your band can survive a missed morale save.
I would humbly submit that dropping the Chraal for a third Duergar, and adding another Sniglet may be even stronger. Primarily because you take away a huge incentive for your opponent to go commander hunting.
Anyway, nice find...now let the Snig+5 warbands start flowing in!
I agree here. Snig doesnt need anymore pressure on him. Go for a 3rd Duergar imo. | |
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johnny.quest
Underboss
1386 Posts
| | 02/08/2006 10:56 AM |
| | I'd be interested in testing both versions. I like the Chraal for diversity, but I also want my Chraal to die on the board to take full advantage of the death burst. | | | |
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Wrackspawn
ChristopherGroves
Warlord
6093 Posts
| | 02/08/2006 11:33 AM |
| Xaos ...
I've got to disagree. DR in the current competitive environment has little value ... and the lack of magical weapons doesn't really limit the Helmed Horrors. The Helmed Horrors don't win by taking on the small number of DR + fire resistance creatures you have ... they just have to kill the other things.
Helmed Horrors are hard to kill. They don't need to kill alot to win with attrition.
bshugg
Snig ... even at commander 0 ... is great. When I first started playing I disliked Snig ... but that was a long time ago and frankly was probably heavily influenced by the fact that LE had crap to put with Snig. With the Chraal and Duergars you can be VERY far ahead of Snig, giving your opponent something on which to focus.
I've said this on another thread recently, I almost always go with the extra principal as opposed to tech or other funky components. | |
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Felagund
Sergeant
922 Posts
| | 02/08/2006 11:53 AM |
| | Like Vrecknidj, I see some definite similarities between this warband and LRB. While seeing Snig as the sole commander (with a Chraal tied to him, no less) makes me cringe a little, I have to admit that most warbands can only go after him at great cost. I think the quad HH could possibly go for it, but that's about it. | |
Champion of Gnomes | |
| 2005 D&D Miniatures Champion
Fenris
Sergeant
974 Posts
| | 02/08/2006 12:00 PM |
| I'm currently of the opinion that Snig is the wrong choice for a quad-HH band. Yes, the extra activations are good, but your opponent now has 29 "easy" points to target instead of just 20. Worse, you still haven't got a speed 8 or 10 creature to grab assault points. And you won't be winning map initiative too often with a commander 0, so most of the time you're not going to get first-round assault points.
That's 39 "easy" points you're giving to your opponent, which is a lot for a band that's basically a defensive point-denial band.
It seems to me that it'd be better to fill the 20 points with a Wolf Skeleton and three Warrior Skeletons. You still hit max activations, and you get first-round assault points on nearly every map -- you're only giving your opponent 20 easy points instead of 39.
I haven't played more than a few games with/against quad horror, but that's my initial read on the situation. | |
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doubtofbuddha
Commander
3371 Posts
| | 02/08/2006 12:01 PM |
| | Large Silver Dragon/Large Red Dragon could probably manage too. Maybe Medium Green, but it would probably be less successful. | |
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Chad the DragonLordofAiur
Underboss
1085 Posts
Southeast PA
| | 02/08/2006 12:33 PM |
| | Fenris - you are assuming no speed 2. Because your configuration has no commander. With no speed 2 your idea is certainly better but with speed 2 you need the commander for the first two rounds to position the HHs. | |
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lynchpt
Sergeant
930 Posts
| | 02/08/2006 1:15 PM |
| The only reason anyone would include Snig with HHx4 is if command is needed for full speed. Once there is no speed penalty ofr being OOC, Fenris is right that many other choices will be better for HHx4 bands.
Like Vrecknidj, I have practiced Snig + 4HH a couple of dozen times in the last month, achieving similar results. The band has no really bad matchups against bands that are solid in their own right. Coatl/Marut and Quad Red Sam are about 50% propositions.
But to continue the praise of Snig, remember that the last NE Open had two Snig bands finish 3 and 4: mine, and Adam Zaremba's Snig + 5 Chraals. Snig can carry the load.
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Dreamblade Rules Advisor | |
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bshugg
Underboss
1833 Posts
| | 02/08/2006 3:17 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Fenris
I'm currently of the opinion that Snig is the wrong choice for a quad-HH band. Yes, the extra activations are good, but your opponent now has 29 "easy" points to target instead of just 20.
I'm 100% talking about before they do away with the speed 2 rule. | |
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Fenris
Sergeant
974 Posts
| | 02/08/2006 4:24 PM |
| Gotcha. Locally we haven't been playing with speed=2 for several months, and so I sometimes forget that elsewhere people are still using the current rules.
I can't wait until everyone is on the same page again. It'll make strategy discussions so much easier.
23 days to go! [:)] | |
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johnny.quest
Underboss
1386 Posts
| | 02/08/2006 4:39 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Fenris
I can't wait until everyone is on the same page again. It'll make strategy discussions so much easier.
Hear hear! Even this thread doesn't directly apply, as I'm getting ready for a 12 figure limit tourney that will use maps. Oy ... | | | |
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Void
Sneak
156 Posts
| | 02/08/2006 4:48 PM |
| | Aren't you afraid of Rikka or Wizard Tactician when running only Snig as the commander? To me, it seems like that would create another close to unwinnable matchup. Or do you calculate that you won't face any such bands? | |
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Vrecknidj
Warlord
10493 Posts
United States
| | 02/08/2006 5:29 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Void
Aren't you afraid of Rikka or Wizard Tactician when running only Snig as the commander? To me, it seems like that would create another close to unwinnable matchup. Or do you calculate that you won't face any such bands?
Against the Wizard Tactician bands, you double-move your four Helmed Horrors on the first round, and put them in places where they can see an enemy. Meanwhile, you hide Snig so that the Wizard Tactician cannot see him. The next round, the Helmed Horrors should have enemies to go move up to and start whacking.
Against Rikka, you leave a Helmed Horror next to Snig (but move the rest as above), if you have to, to keep him safe. If Rikka shows up, she'll have to deal with a Helmed Horror on her until she moves.
Heck, if Rikka falls, she's worth more than Snig plus all the minions, so it's a little risky.
Dave | |
Knowledge Arcana editor issues 5-9, Phoenix Lore Magazine editor, assistant editor for Rite Publishing;
My Trade Thread and My Reference Thread; Winner of WBC IV, IX and XIII; Rule #0: bshugg is always right! | |
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Wrackspawn
ChristopherGroves
Warlord
6093 Posts
| |
Wrackspawn
ChristopherGroves
Warlord
6093 Posts
| | 02/08/2006 7:45 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Fenris
I'm currently of the opinion that Snig is the wrong choice for a quad-HH band. Yes, the extra activations are good, but your opponent now has 29 "easy" points to target instead of just 20. Worse, you still haven't got a speed 8 or 10 creature to grab assault points. And you won't be winning map initiative too often with a commander 0, so most of the time you're not going to get first-round assault points.
That's 39 "easy" points you're giving to your opponent, which is a lot for a band that's basically a defensive point-denial band.
It seems to me that it'd be better to fill the 20 points with a Wolf Skeleton and three Warrior Skeletons. You still hit max activations, and you get first-round assault points on nearly every map -- you're only giving your opponent 20 easy points instead of 39.
I haven't played more than a few games with/against quad horror, but that's my initial read on the situation.
We still play 12/tiles ;-)
Once no speed 2 comes into play I think Wolf Skelly + 3 Kobold Miners would be my default quad HH choice ... if I run quad HH. I think three is more my speed. | |
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bshugg
Underboss
1833 Posts
| | 02/08/2006 11:00 PM |
| yeah, yeah, yeah
4 HH and snig or wolf skellies...
What about my design, darn it! [)] | |
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|
Wrackspawn
ChristopherGroves
Warlord
6093 Posts
| |
Vrecknidj
Warlord
10493 Posts
United States
| | 02/09/2006 9:29 AM |
| quote:
Theres 2 basic ways you can create a warband. You can play a diverse band that minimizes bad match ups because its using different types of threats. Or you can play a focused band that does one thing really good and attempts to overwhelm your opponent with too many threats of one kind. The advantage of focused bands, is if you get a good match up, its often REALLY good. The disadvantage is if you get a bad matchup its often REALLY bad. There are different levels of focus and diversity for sure, but I just wanted to lay this out as a "rough" concept.
Okay, from what I'm reading, this is also part of what you want comments on. This is a metagame issue again, and it's one that I think definitely needs to be addressed.
I think that a diversified band's greatest weakness is that you could have one or more figures that have no particular usefulness against any given band. (For example, the Lich Necromancer against a Helmed Horror. Not that the Lich is really all that often found in diverse bands, but, the weakness part is my point.) In this case, the rest of the band has to bear the burden of the match, and it may not be up to it. But, against a wide field of bands, the diversified approach is probably going to give you more options per match, and that could be what you need to win.
A focused band's weakness is that you have restricted options. The example of four Helmed Horrors is great, because you really only have one option: move up to things and hit them. Your ranged attacks are really kinda worthless (given the slow ranged attack). The Horrors have a very high survivability factor, and so you can pretty much count on not losing them all unless the battle is going to end up taking 25 rounds. But, because you're options are so limited, there might be bands against which "move up and hit" isn't really what you need to do to win.
I wonder what the number of kinds of bad matchups are, in general for these two types. I mean, there aren't many bad matchups for the Quad Helmed Horror, but other focused bands, like my somewhat-in-jest "Four Fireball Surprise" band has a lot of bad matchups, but a few very nice ones.
I think that the diverse bands plotted against matchups will give a somewhat smoother bell curve, and the focused bands on the same graph will have more of an inverted 'V' look to them.
Dave | |
Knowledge Arcana editor issues 5-9, Phoenix Lore Magazine editor, assistant editor for Rite Publishing;
My Trade Thread and My Reference Thread; Winner of WBC IV, IX and XIII; Rule #0: bshugg is always right! | |
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Avatar of the Tank
Newtoncain
Commander
2985 Posts
Land of 10,000 taxes
| | 02/09/2006 9:56 AM |
| | In 3 short weeks we have to think about Snig on a worgΖD]. Might have to go with 3 HH instead then. | |
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XAos
Underboss
2413 Posts
London
| | 02/09/2006 10:01 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Vrecknidj
[quote]Theres 2 basic ways you can create a warband. You can play a diverse band that minimizes bad match ups because its using different types of threats. Or you can play a focused band that does one thing really good and attempts to overwhelm your opponent with too many threats of one kind.
HH is "Immune" to so many different types of attack that it manages to be "diverse" in a single figure. e.g;
Blind-sight gives it the "diversity" to beat warbands with conceal or hide.
Immune-poison; defeats Lolths sting or Arachnomancers.
Immune-negative damage & Stoning; defeats Beholders.
Immune Stun (combined with 4x95HP) defeats Gyth-monks.
Immune Sneak-attacks; defeats Slayer of Domiel, half-orc executioners, etc...
The list of potential tier-1 figures that 4xHH are immune to is ridiculously long. | | | |
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doubtofbuddha
Commander
3371 Posts
| | 02/09/2006 10:10 AM |
| The only tier 1 miniatures that you listed were the gith monks (directly) and the duergar champion (indirectly.)
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I am not gone. | |
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Vrecknidj
Warlord
10493 Posts
United States
| | 02/09/2006 10:27 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by XAos
HH is "Immune" to so many different types of attack that it manages to be "diverse" in a single figure. e.g;
Blind-sight gives it the "diversity" to beat warbands with conceal or hide.
Immune-poison; defeats Lolths sting or Arachnomancers.
Immune-negative damage & Stoning; defeats Beholders.
Immune Stun (combined with 4x95HP) defeats Gyth-monks.
Immune Sneak-attacks; defeats Slayer of Domiel, half-orc executioners, etc...
The list of potential tier-1 figures that 4xHH are immune to is ridiculously long.
Focused diversity. Nice.
Dave | |
Knowledge Arcana editor issues 5-9, Phoenix Lore Magazine editor, assistant editor for Rite Publishing;
My Trade Thread and My Reference Thread; Winner of WBC IV, IX and XIII; Rule #0: bshugg is always right! | |
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XAos
Underboss
2413 Posts
London
| | 02/09/2006 10:29 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by doubtofbuddha
The only tier 1 miniatures that you listed were the gith monks (directly) and the duergar champion (indirectly.)
That wasn't intended to be an exhaustive list of all the Tier-1 figures nerfed by 4xHH (the list is way too long for that).
List me some figures you think are tier-1 and I'll tell you why the HH nerfs them.? You might find 2 or 3 that arn't nerfed (FB?) but most of them will be... | | | |
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kgradert13
Sergeant
909 Posts
| | 02/09/2006 10:45 AM |
| I do think the HH nerfs the Beserker as well.
Fearless, 4 attacks required to kill, and a somewhat high AC.
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Vrecknidj
Warlord
10493 Posts
United States
| | 02/09/2006 12:09 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by kgradert13
I do think the HH nerfs the Beserker as well.
Fearless, 4 attacks required to kill, and a somewhat high AC.
Maybe. It depends upon what other support is there. Three Frenzied Berserkers will drop, eventually, to four Helmed Horrors. But, the difference is 156 points vs. 180 points. If the FBs can destroy three of thr four and weaken the fourth enough, then the CG's remaining 44 points might be able to both take out the remaining HH and deal with the LE's remaining 20 points.
It's not a total nerfing (at least not against triple-FB).
Dave | |
Knowledge Arcana editor issues 5-9, Phoenix Lore Magazine editor, assistant editor for Rite Publishing;
My Trade Thread and My Reference Thread; Winner of WBC IV, IX and XIII; Rule #0: bshugg is always right! | |
| 2005 D&D Miniatures Champion
Fenris
Sergeant
974 Posts
| | 02/09/2006 12:46 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by bshugg
yeah, yeah, yeah
4 HH and snig or wolf skellies...
What about my design, darn it! [)]
Snig
Gauth
Gauth
Duergar Champion
Duergar Champion
Chraal
Goblin Skirmisher
Goblin Skirmisher
Goblin Skirmisher
Heheh. Ok.
I like the general concept. Having two Gauths means you don't have to be aggressive, which is good since you have a lot of 50/50-ish morale saves, and so you probably don't want to engage until after the enemy has taken some ranged damage.
I do worry about map selection with a commander zero. There are some maps that totally hose the Gauth, either with smoke or with limited LOS opportunities. You don't want to spend 78 points on something that won't get to shoot until round three. Still, you have a good amount of offense even without the Gauths, so it's not an autoloss even when you get a bad map / bad side of a map.
You've packed so many efficient hitters in there that you can probably win a lot of games even when faced with fire-resistant creatures or bad LOS. I think, though, that after Wardrums hits you might find you want to revamp it a bit -- some other choices might seem better next month. [)] | |
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Kiddoc
Underboss
1797 Posts
| | 02/09/2006 2:53 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Fenris
I think, though, that after Wardrums hits you might find you want to revamp it a bit -- some other choices might seem better next month. [)]
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IanB
Commander
3112 Posts
| | 02/09/2006 3:16 PM |
| I would worry about playing this band, personally. I see a couple (to me) big problems.
1. As Fenris mentioned, getting map-hosed seems very possible.
2. Snig is not only tied to a chraal, but he's tied to a chraal without any other large base blockers in the warband. It seems to me that any dangerous flier could spell huge problems for this band. Consider that your opponent could send a death slaad to kill Snig and still end up ahead on points even if you kill the slaad afterwards.
3. Severe dragon vulnerability. On many maps breath weapons can already be a threat on turn 2. I would worry about keeping the gauths and Snig far enough apart from each other to not eat a breath weapon early. For similar reasons, I think multi-slaad bands are a problem, especially if they get their choice of map and starting location for early chaos hammer LOS.
4. Couatls take a big chunk of your offense away. I love the gauth, but a couatl backed warband is really a big problem for it. I typically try to keep it to one per band because I know that I'm likely to see one in any given tournament. Couatl/Marut looks fairly troublesome to me.
Mind you, there are problems here that can be minimized via good play. I wouldn't feel comfortable personally running it, though. I like to build in a little room for mistakes into my bands, which is why I lean on the duergars so much - conceal usually saves me from one boneheaded move per tournament. [)] | |
Anson on WotC boards | |
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Balrog
Sneak
169 Posts
| | 02/09/2006 3:40 PM |
| iv =e been using this concept with some succes uin epic with cheap relatively squshy commanders, but i thik it loses som eof its merit
in 200 point play.
as for your band if i were to use this band, then i would cut the 2nd gauth and the chraal, and add a HH adn tile grabber | |
I <3 Orcs.... what does that say about me?
Champion of Raistlin Majere with Epic card
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Eliminator53
Sergeant
628 Posts
| | 02/09/2006 5:09 PM |
| Snig
Gauth
Gauth
Duergar Champion
Duergar Champion
Chraal
Goblin Skirmisher
Goblin Skirmisher
Goblin Skirmisher
I really like this concept Bshugg. I do like the variety that it presents. I do agree with most of the others and and say that I don't trust Snig in this format. His head becomes a huge bulls eye w/ the chraal. Even if the chraal is replaced I really don't like one commander warbands unless that one commander is a stud. I am also a big believer in winning intiative to setup myself or give me the option to react to people on a turn that is important.
I also think that in the new 8 fig format, right around 5 or 6 figs seem to be the best. This means that they will be moderatly stronger and can take or deal more punishment. I might give this warband a spin though. | |
Champion of Tavern Stripper
Knight of Knights
Squire of Death Giants
Somethin-or-another of Big Arse Swords | |
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Tried
Sergeant
501 Posts
| | 02/09/2006 6:22 PM |
| quote:
... I think, though, that after Wardrums hits you might find you want to revamp it a bit -- some other choices might seem better next month. [)]
I think, that by this time next month, we will be cheating with even weaker commanders. Like, well - "nobody." NOt sure if he is a better choice than snig, who comes with minions, though.
For example -
3FBs do fine w/o a commander
Ditto for the 4HH.
Don't know about twin marut, but someone might figure a way to leverage it (though couatl seems to be almost required in LG these days).
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Let it be. | |
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bluebehir
Sneak
150 Posts
| | 02/09/2006 9:17 PM |
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Snig
Gauth
Gauth
Duergar Champion
Duergar Champion
Chraal
Goblin Skirmisher
Goblin Skirmisher
Goblin Skirmisher
What I like about the band is, yes, the diversity. The threats included are fire, cold, cleave, paralysis and blur.
The weakness? Well, it has been said that Snig is the weakness, but I think that's possibly a red herring. Mind you, that's not to say he's not a weak link, he's just not always the weakest.
It takes a flier to really get to Snig, and there are enough of these about, I admit. But the Chraal will make the Helmed Horror sit up and take notice, so against the 4xHH band, you'll obviously tie up two or three horrors with Duegar, and using terrain, the sniglets and perhaps the gauth, you'll give the HH nowhere to land. They'll carve up your Gauth while your Chraal deals it back.
(Not a good matchup, but the weakness here is actually the Gauth).
In such a case, two chraal might even be better than two gauth, but yes, Snig is even more the target.
My suggestion, not that you need it, is to take out one Gauth and try and include a new threat. The Helmed Horror might even be the piece you're looking for, although it costs too much.
I know that in fact you would cover any weaknesses with strong play, so this exercise is probably without merit, but I'll continue regardless.
But just to dabble a little with your band, I took out Snig (commander 0 and a little weak) and the Gauth, and replaced with Dark Naga, and Skeletal Equiceph.
Dark Naga (commander 3)
Gauth
Chraal
Duegar
Duegar
Skeletal Equiceph
Kobold Miner
Kobold Miner
The Dark Naga has commander 3, so you've at least got a chance with map choice / side placement. Also his commander effect improves your Gauth, making him partially effective with paralysis.
The Naga is a big target with the Chraal, but the Equiceph and Chraal is probably enough to block with, and the Chraal can breathe through the Equiceph.
But also the Naga has spells to assist with, while Snig offered very little. The slapping hand, for example, may come in handy. Especially with the Duergars having cleave.
The Kobold Miners might take tile points (better than nothing), and if they do, it's another round or two that you can use to get into position with the Duegars while the enemy slow for the diversion.
Notably, this version has less ranged threat, but in its place, you now have cold, fire, blur and lightning. Not to mention DC+2 (on gauth) and MR2 from Skeletal Equiceph (whom, I admit, is only apt to kill fodder.)
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Vrecknidj
Warlord
10493 Posts
United States
| | 02/10/2006 12:23 PM |
| One thing I don't like about the old Snig-as-only-commander option is the possibility of running into a Green Dragon. A Gauth cannot really slow down a Green Dragon all that much (barring a failed Stun save), and the Dragon's speed is so great that he can be kept safe while remaining an assassination threat.
The Dragon cannot handle too much these days (no more crowds of 5 Orc Warriors anymore), but, he's also relatively cheap and makes a sturdy assault point grabber, so he's likely to show up once in a while.
Dave | |
Knowledge Arcana editor issues 5-9, Phoenix Lore Magazine editor, assistant editor for Rite Publishing;
My Trade Thread and My Reference Thread; Winner of WBC IV, IX and XIII; Rule #0: bshugg is always right! | |
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Dagni
Sergeant
870 Posts
| | 02/13/2006 6:52 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by XAos
quote:
Originally posted by Vrecknidj
[quote]Theres 2 basic ways you can create a warband. You can play a diverse band that minimizes bad match ups because its using different types of threats. Or you can play a focused band that does one thing really good and attempts to overwhelm your opponent with too many threats of one kind.
HH is "Immune" to so many different types of attack that it manages to be "diverse" in a single figure. e.g;
Blind-sight gives it the "diversity" to beat warbands with conceal or hide.
Immune-poison; defeats Lolths sting or Arachnomancers.
Immune-negative damage & Stoning; defeats Beholders.
Immune Stun (combined with 4x95HP) defeats Gyth-monks.
Immune Sneak-attacks; defeats Slayer of Domiel, half-orc executioners, etc...
The list of potential tier-1 figures that 4xHH are immune to is ridiculously long.
Disagree. It doesn't matter how many different abilities a figure has, they don't make the figure diverse, when you overload on the same figure, it still leads to either A) making a good matchup even better, or B) making a bad matchup even worse.
You're confusing the number of different 'good' matchups the Helmed Horror has with diversity. If one agrees with the statement, "The list of potential tier-1 figures that 4xHH are immune to is ridiculously long", then putting in a Duergar Champion instead of one of the Helmed Horror still weakens the band's good matchups, of which there are a lot, to strengthen it against the (few) bad matchups. That's what diversity is, that's exactly what bshugg describes.
A Ghaele Eladrin, at 124 points, could take on all 4 Helmed Horrors single-handedly - in spite of the fact that the Helmed Horrors are *twice over* immune to the Gaze Attack (Blindsight, Fearless). That's not diversity.
Sometimes, a really broad special advantage, such as the Couatl's energy bonus, can be regarded as a general strength. That still doesn't make the Couatl "diverse". What it means is that pure hitters *are* the Couatl's bad matchups - they don't do elemental damage, so the Couatl's ability is useless.
- Dagni | |
Proud member of the GRUUMSH fan club! | |
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