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djtool
Sergeant
584 Posts
    
Crystal MN, USA
 | | 04/03/2006 7:25 PM |
| Somebody's gotta take up the fight for what's good and right! :)
well I decided to tease my brain trying to figure out how the heck LG is going to deal with this CE resurgence and the strength of LE. I decided to focus more on CE since it's not easy to scheme against LE's beaters and quad HH *does seem intermittent if not rare so maybe it'd just be bad luck to end up facing that.
This is what i've come up with so far:
JA x 2 (64) - this is the best I can come up with for a HGB counter.
Gith monk (98) - can stun CE's hitters and chase down commanders and wardrummer. This may save my hitters from facing all of my opponents as they may try to protect those pieces.
Loyal Earth Elemental (132) - someone on the squad needs to have high attack bonus's. burrowing may help for flanking a JA (they need it).
Cleric of Dol Arrah (177) - Need to keep my monk and LEE on the map. If choice of map is important he's helping me get it. Healing for LEE. LEE is a large base so I can base him to give a +2 AC boost w/out fear of a mr2 beater slapping me. Dismissal is really good vs. LE (specially if I can get a shot at a commander) and ok vs. LG.
Lantern Bearer (189) - so much evil out there and lots of nasty little dorfs skulking about. HH's are the prime concern for this guy. most other hitter can probably be handled via good placement.
Timberwolf x 2 (199) - vs. those speedy CE units i need someone to be able to keep them chasing. 2 of these maybe aren't bad for taking down a wardrummer.
VS. another LG band there seems to be trouble.
VS. a CG band i think its still good.
attack bonus's are a little light for LE bands but maybe lantern bearer helps it out. also if zak rak's are popular CoDA can help give an edge.
any other thoughts on how LG is going to compete???
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djtool
Sergeant
584 Posts
Crystal MN, USA
| | 04/03/2006 9:43 PM |
| i think i needed a hug.
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Champion of: Brain in a Jar | |
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johnny.quest
Underboss
1386 Posts
| | 04/03/2006 10:21 PM |
| | Folks get pretty tight-lipped during qualifier season [)] | | | |
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cerberuspuppy
Warrior
288 Posts
| | 04/03/2006 10:25 PM |
| I'm curious about this too. It's not that LG is in a bad position, it's just that it's not clear (to me at least) what their best builds are.
LG has some good titans, and the tools to back them up. It's not just the Marut, either. The Stone Giant is still good, and I've even seen the Sand Giant used very effectively.
The CODA is pretty much the default LG commander, unless points are tight. Putting her right behind a large base is good. She can sit safe and heal while boosting AC.
Other than her, I'd look at commanders who can boost damage. The Sword Archon is for Epic, and the Cleric of St Cuthbert is for 100 point games. That leaves the Half Orc Paladin and Warforged Captain. Either bonus will work against the HGB or any CE mainline hitter. Both qualify as fighting commanders, and both are good choices. The only problem is, the HOP's CR is below the standard threshold of 4. You can run a backup like the Cleric of Order, or let it slide if your saves are good enough (fearless being ideal).
Justice Archons are great against CE, and might go back to 2 per band instead of 1. They have fits trying to hit DC and HH, but at least flanking is easier with flight.
Gith Monks are strong in multiples with YM or solo with a commander who provides a hit or damage bonus.
LG still has some great tech, including Aramil. Making the HGB hit 10% less often could be crucial, especially if you can get the rest of your warband close to AC 25. The Dwarf Artificer might be worthwhile both for the +2 AC and the meta against HH and Maruts. | |
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Teflon Jeff
Warlord
7908 Posts
Sector 2814
| | 04/03/2006 10:44 PM |
| I think that the problem is that JA's don't function too well against LE. and I think because of LE, you need to include a couatl. I was thinking about this
Couatl 42
JA x2 106
Gith Monk x2 174
Artificer 195
T-wolf 200
Only 7 acts, and admittedly a little weak, but it's what I would play. | |
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Gunthar
Commander
2938 Posts
| | 04/03/2006 11:08 PM |
| Outside of Couatl/Marut and Monks:
LG Quad with:
Cleric of the Order
Justicator x2
Justice Archon x2
Warforged Scout
Hill Dwarf Warrior x2 (maybe swap out for Azer and commoner, but maybe not)
The problems are:
Teleport Temple
Commander Assassins
Mega-Damage bands that can hit some (ie: Orc Champion/Red Samurai Quads) as Only the Archons are dishing out comparable damage.
Theres also something like
Cleric of Yondalla 14
Marut x2 148 162
Sacred Watcher 18 180
Warforged Scout 8 188
Malee, Elf Wizard 6 194
Man-at-Arms x2 6 200
Go ahead Hill Giants, try hitting two of these guys on a consistent basis and they both have Magic Weapon for anti-DR.
Problems:
Auto Damage
Multiple Hitters who can hit them on a regular basis
Purple Dragon Knight 45
Slayer of Domiel 46 91
Justic Archon x3 96 187
Warforged Scout 8 195
Azer Raider 5 200
Problems:
Basically only good against Chaotic's ACs and great against Dual-Hill Giants.
Teleport Temple again
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nasamonkey
Warrior
296 Posts
| | 04/03/2006 11:46 PM |
| Nice summary gunthar.
I think that Dual HGB are the thing,
the orc wardrummer was just too cheap to fit in a dual titan speed 10 CE...nasty huh.
and the days of marut cuoatl and HH ....well....we will only know after the qualifier.
No matter what theories people have on taking out the wardrummer....they got two giants on steroids with two big clubs pocking from...
My opinion for LG:
Gith's are making a comeback..just pray you dont play against HH's.
and from some recent tournament results...good players may have converted to playing dual HGB's. | |
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kgradert13
Sergeant
909 Posts
| | 04/04/2006 12:15 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by cerberuspuppy
The CODA is pretty much the default LG commander, unless points are tight. Putting her right behind a large base is good. She can sit safe and heal while boosting AC.
I don't see the CoDA being played that often really. I choose to play the Cleric of Order and Couatl way before the CoDA. I would say I have even played the Cleric of Yondalla and Half-Orc Paladin more.
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Zyla
Underboss
1201 Posts
| | 04/04/2006 1:18 AM |
| | The drawback of the HGB is the +12 AB, they wont be hitting many in LG or LE | |
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elder_basilisk
Sergeant
410 Posts
| | 04/04/2006 2:47 AM |
| It's +14 against medium creatures. When nearly every medium creature is a two hit kill, that's plenty good enough to qualify as hitting "often." Against AC 21, that's a 70% chance to hit on the primary attack and a 45% chance to hit on the secondary with a 5% chance to crit on either attack. Which means that somewhere around 30% of the time, your AC 20-22 lawful beater who you're counting on to survive will be dead after a single hill giant activation.
Against large creatures with good ACs, it's a lot less reliable, but you don't need a whole lot of luck to hit at 50%/25%; in fact, you can expect that to happen one in eight activations. It's not good odds if you're playing the HGB. On the other hand, if you're playing against the HGB, you shouldn't particularly like those odds either.
quote:
Originally posted by Zyla
The drawback of the HGB is the +12 AB, they wont be hitting many in LG or LE
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nasamonkey
Warrior
296 Posts
| | 04/04/2006 4:27 AM |
| Exactly.Lawful good has good AC but lack the hit points to conpensate.
1 hit from a HGB usually leads to morale.
2 hits usually death.
on a medium creature...start crying.
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Wayne
Underboss
1371 Posts
| | 04/04/2006 4:46 AM |
| I do think one possibility against dual-HGBs is pumping LG's ACs sky-high (on Large creatures). The problem, of course, is making sure the resulting band is competitive against other bands it's likely to face.
Two attempts:
Cleric of Dol Arrah (45) 45
Justicator x2 (96) 141
Dwarf Artificer (21) 162
Eberk (16) 178
Aramil (13) 191
Timber Wolf (5) 196
Jozan (4) 200
8 activations, 200 points.
The Artificer and Eberk pump ACs by 3, taking the Justicator to AC 25. Adjacent to the CoDA, the Justicator is AC 27. It will take two HGBs a long time to take down these guys, with the CoDA pumping out cures, especially if Aramil gets off his nerf-rays. (First hit takes a 17, second must crit to hit.) I think this would beat dual-HGBs pretty handily, but its damage output against stuff that can get past its AC is just abysmal.
Couatl (42) 42
Marut (74) 116
Warforged Bodyguard (32) 148
Dwarf Artificer (21) 169
Eberk (16) 185
Warforged Scout (8) 193
Hill Dwarf Warrior (4) 197
Man-at-Arms (3) 200
8 activations, 200 points.
Again, the Artificer and Eberk pump ACs. The Marut will be taking 30 per hit, with 16 and crits needed to hit. (And, unlike the band above, he of course won't take extra damage from the crits.) Eberk can provide "touch-up" healing (as can the Couatl, if the HGBs get in a lucky swing), and against soft targets his spiritual weapon is a spell worth casting. If the Couatl can survive -- and with an AC of 25, I like its chances for a while -- I think this band is competitive against almost anything. It will not, however, win init very often.
One other band I toyed with and then despaired for had a base of Couatl, Mephling Pyromancer, and Mounted Paladin. A flying Mounted Paladin is very, very scary. But of course it should be, considering the points invested in making it happen.
Comments? | |
Jeff "Wayne Laredo" Wilder | Email | Have/Want List | Trade Policies | Are You an Ethical Trader?
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iluvxtina
Underboss
1501 Posts
Spain
| | 04/04/2006 5:49 AM |
| | You have forgotten the best LG creature (and one of the best in the entire game): the couatl.Its an absolutely must in every LG warband you can imagine.Believe me...Its the number one.The justice archon are nice but her attack bonuses are very poor and rarely causes damage.The earth elemental is disgusting for me,like the lanternbearer....useless.The timber wolf can be surely replace for a warforged scout.He surely give to you more victory points and fights well against another grabbe tilers.The githzerai monk is overpower and works well but there,re a lot of helmed and marut out there.and dont forget the young master,eh?The dol arrah is right. | |
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Goldmoon
Sergeant
986 Posts
| | 04/04/2006 8:19 AM |
|
I go for some defences,
Cleric of Dol Arrah (45)
Justicator x2 (96)
Warforged Bodyguard (32)
Aramil (13)
Timberwovlf x2 (10)
Jozan(4)
On Dragon Shrine, this band could reduce the output of HHs and even more if the HHs got the nerf ray.
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ChristopherGroves
Warlord
6093 Posts
| | 04/04/2006 8:28 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Gunthar
Outside of Couatl/Marut and Monks:
LG Quad with:
Cleric of the Order
Justicator x2
Justice Archon x2
Warforged Scout
Hill Dwarf Warrior x2 (maybe swap out for Azer and commoner, but maybe not)
Timber Wolf and 3-pointer ... run this on the DragonShrine
I still want to crack the Slayer of Domiel. Right now I'm leaning towards something like ...
Village Priest
Warforged Bodyguard x4
Slayer of Domiel
Timber Wolf
But I'm not happy with my breakdown. I like the 5 hitters and I like the ability of the Bodyguard to keep both the VP and Slayer alive and I like the VPs ability to hit the Slayer with +2 to hit. Maybe drop/swap one or two of the bodyguards for a JA.
You'll lose more points strictly speaking, but if you make any sizeable kill I think you could be in a good position to win. | |
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rhane
Underboss
1412 Posts
| | 04/04/2006 9:23 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by djtool
JA x 2
Gith monk
Loyal Earth Elemental
Cleric of Dol Arrah
Lantern Bearer
Timberwolf x 2
As a huge fan of Githzerai Monks, I really don't like them as singles. Their DC18 stun save is nice when run in multiples, because everyone eventually rolls low, but with only 1 chance per round (barring AoOs), you really can't count on stun working. That leaves you with a single use Unavoidable Strike, and then a high AC, low HP creature.
What would I replace it with in this warband? Well, if you lose your CoDA, you're in big trouble anyway - LEE goes poof, and the JA's are no longer fearless. So, why not go Quadruple or nothing. Add a second Loyal Earth Elemental.
Now, this warband still has some glaring weaknesses...its slow and susceptible to direct damage and Area of Effect attacks. The Earthbound SA on the LEE's can be annoying given all the stuff with flight. | |
Rhane
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rhane
Underboss
1412 Posts
| | 04/04/2006 9:36 AM |
| Nice ideas, all...
One problem that I run into with LG, is that its often difficult to really build to oppose both LE/LG and CE (and possibly CG). If you bring Justice Archons to combat the Chaotic factions, you're really hurting yourself vs. the Lawfuls. If you bring the high attack titans, you can be in trouble vs. the Chaotic swarms.
To combat this, many folks try to build for all takers by bringing a variety of beaters. However, manytimes, this just means that the warband is mediocre vs. all comers. Instead of having really good matchups and really bad matchups, you're left with a bunch of slightly bad matchups. I think very good players may be able to make this work, but for us duffers, I would recommend building vs. 1 or the other. Don't try to make a LG "jack of all trades" warband, because it will likely be a "master of none".
Thoughts? | |
Rhane
"The focus is sharp in the city..."
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Vrecknidj
Warlord
10493 Posts
United States
| | 04/04/2006 9:51 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by ChristopherGroves
I still want to crack the Slayer of Domiel.
Slayer v. HGB = 156 points.If, you can manage to kill the damn thing. So, if you have, say, three JAs and a Slayer, and all three JAs hit in one round (and the HGB is at 150 at that round), then you've got him down to 45. The Slayer will do 25 on the first hit, with a flank, and another 20 on the second hit. So, that would work. I don't know how well those four pieces will do against everything else though. I'd imagine Helmed Horrors could be a problem.
Dave | |
Knowledge Arcana editor issues 5-9, Phoenix Lore Magazine editor, assistant editor for Rite Publishing;
My Trade Thread and My Reference Thread; Winner of WBC IV, IX and XIII; Rule #0: bshugg is always right! | |
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Wrackspawn
ChristopherGroves
Warlord
6093 Posts
| | Hero of Skirmish
doubtofbuddha
Commander
3371 Posts
| | 04/04/2006 10:25 AM |
| I think rhane nailed the problem in the head. Its currently tough to build warbands around the idea of being able to beat both LE and CE (not to mention what is needed to deal with LG itself.) You can optimize against one or the other but that doesn't really help that much in a mixed metagame.
Really, despite the shifts in the metagame I still think the quad gith monks is among the best warbands that LG has available to it right now. It has some bad match-ups but there are ways to alleviate those match-ups through a combination of tech choices, map choices, and skilled play.
There are a few other ideas I have based around Sacred Watchers and the Aspect of Moradin (seperate warband) but I am not yet sure of their competitiveness in the broader metagame. | |
I am not gone. | |
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Vrecknidj
Warlord
10493 Posts
United States
| | 04/04/2006 11:20 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by doubtofbuddha
I think rhane nailed the problem in the head. Its currently tough to build warbands around the idea of being able to beat both LE and CE (not to mention what is needed to deal with LG itself.) You can optimize against one or the other but that doesn't really help that much in a mixed metagame.
Yup, that about sums it up right now. That's part of the reason for my post on the new maps.quote:
Really, despite the shifts in the metagame I still think the quad gith monks is among the best warbands that LG has available to it right now. It has some bad match-ups but there are ways to alleviate those match-ups through a combination of tech choices, map choices, and skilled play.
Gonna have to recheck my tech.quote:
There are a few other ideas I have based around Sacred Watchers and the Aspect of Moradin (seperate warband) but I am not yet sure of their competitiveness in the broader metagame.
I keep sayin' I'm gonna play Ulmo and 5 Sacred Watchers, but I really, really don't want to go up against Constructs....
Dave | |
Knowledge Arcana editor issues 5-9, Phoenix Lore Magazine editor, assistant editor for Rite Publishing;
My Trade Thread and My Reference Thread; Winner of WBC IV, IX and XIII; Rule #0: bshugg is always right! | |
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djtool
Sergeant
584 Posts
Crystal MN, USA
| | 04/04/2006 11:28 AM |
| i think the idea that a single gith monk in your warband is a waste is a misnomer. speed 10+ on a ~30 point creature is game changing. I don't see the monks purpose is that of a standard beater. All of Gith's gadgets are well suited to getting to that commander or key tech piece and eliminating it. The effect of this permits you to either avoid dealing with all of of your opponents force or giving you a very nice opportunity to nerf morale saves.
In the guess build I posted the LEE tied to CoDA is kind of a bummer. One HH is gonna be trouble and 2+ is frowny face time.
As far as couatl being a must include I think that's a misnomer as well. It seems to me he's only going to pay off if you have a titan build or a JA or two facing a chaotic build. Otherwise CoDA prevents just as much damage as a couatl. besides just the healing CoDA gives you a better opportunity to act first which also prevents damage. Sure you can add a CoO or a CoY but now you're *really* talking about a 45 pt commander vs a 66/56 pt one.
If that NE tourney data is a vaguely accurate representation of warband factions then the lantern bearer is not something to just laugh off. %75 of those warbands were evil! That's alot of mileage out of that guy. | |
Champion of: Brain in a Jar | |
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DinoBen
Sergeant
412 Posts
Based outta Games of Berkeley, CA
| | 04/04/2006 12:21 PM |
| I agree that Lantern Bearer is going to be a key LG Tech piece with all of the Conceal running around. For 12 points he's fairly stable as well. For one point more, however, you could have another key Tech piece, Aramil. Do you pay for both?
I'm also surprised the Warpriest of Moradin hasn't come up as a key piece for LG yet. He gives your warband +1 AC & Saves, has the game-nerfing Close Wounds, and Moradin's Warcry. With favor falling to the HGB bands that have only one commander, it seems that a band that makes each attack on the HGBs force a morale save would get more attention. Gith Monks can assassinate the opponent commander, thus making every attack on the HGBs role a morale save, which even with a WarDrummer they're bound to fail.
At any rate, the Warpriest seems to be a commander option alongside the CoDA, Couatl and Half-Orc Paladin. | |
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Gunthar
Commander
2938 Posts
| | 04/04/2006 2:43 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by DinoBen
I agree that Lantern Bearer is going to be a key LG Tech piece with all of the Conceal running around. For 12 points he's fairly stable as well. For one point more, however, you could have another key Tech piece, Aramil. Do you pay for both?
I'm also surprised the Warpriest of Moradin hasn't come up as a key piece for LG yet. He gives your warband +1 AC & Saves, has the game-nerfing Close Wounds, and Moradin's Warcry. With favor falling to the HGB bands that have only one commander, it seems that a band that makes each attack on the HGBs force a morale save would get more attention. Gith Monks can assassinate the opponent commander, thus making every attack on the HGBs role a morale save, which even with a WarDrummer they're bound to fail.
At any rate, the Warpriest seems to be a commander option alongside the CoDA, Couatl and Half-Orc Paladin.
The problem with the Wapriest is that you need to assassinate the opposing commander first. | |
Champion of Prit(Wemic vindication is here)
Minneapolis/St. Paul area
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Wrackspawn
ChristopherGroves
Warlord
6093 Posts
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Gunthar
Commander
2938 Posts
| | 04/04/2006 3:18 PM |
| If you want to run a dangerous band, you could run:
Village Priest 21
Warforged Bodyguard x2 64 85
Justice Archon x3 96 181
Standard Bearer 10 191
Warforged Scout 8 199
Under command and with Bless, the bodyguards are hitting at +15/+10 and you have 3 archons for chaotic hate. Still, your squishy commander is an absolutely HUGE target. He goes, and none of you figs are likely to have more than half HP of use.
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Champion of Prit(Wemic vindication is here)
Minneapolis/St. Paul area
Completed trades: Aspect of Cheese (Love that moniker), Tickparasite, Elderthing, Lalato, Sodj, Grimoire, SmilinIrish, Zeb, RWarehall,Link, wikkawikkawa, Auramancer, Rommers, HK, Ivid5,Qillan_dvra, Puggins, Arcabius, Ironfist Boulderbender, Robby, Corim Danex, monster_slayer, DNDJUNKIE, Kelemvor, Krush, ckissee, Massawyrm, hockey fan, Wish, Uninspiring Lieutenant, vtloon x2, Vrecknidj, Darthpoke, WakeXX, AnarionZell, lycusmike, papabear5 and umpteen local trades with board members
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Pegasus Knight
Sergeant
896 Posts
| | 04/04/2006 5:01 PM |
| | While not an answer to everything, it seems to me the Aspect of Moradin would be a handy foil to the dual-HGB bands running around. Combine him with a Lantern Bearer and most Evil stuff is going to have fun trying to even hit the guy. | |
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Vrecknidj
Warlord
10493 Posts
United States
| | 04/04/2006 5:25 PM |
| I'm trying to build Slayer bands again...
Cleric of Order
Dwarf Wizard
Justice Archon x3
Slayer of Domiel
Warforged Scout
Azer Raider
And this looks fun:
Cleric of Yondalla
Sacred Watcher x2
Justice Archon x3
Slayer of Domiel
Warforged Scout
And, for a little Mercenary Sergeant love, there's this:
Couatl
Sacred Watcher
Justice Archon x2
Slayer of Domiel
Mercenary Sergeant
Hill Dwarf Warrior
Man at Arms
Dave | |
Knowledge Arcana editor issues 5-9, Phoenix Lore Magazine editor, assistant editor for Rite Publishing;
My Trade Thread and My Reference Thread; Winner of WBC IV, IX and XIII; Rule #0: bshugg is always right! | |
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Vrecknidj
Warlord
10493 Posts
United States
| | 04/04/2006 7:32 PM |
| Forget Slayer, how about Justicator?
Justicator
Justice Archon x3
Cleric of Order
Sacred Watcher
Warforged Scout
Mialee
Justicator
Justice Archon x3
Village Priest
Sacred Watcher
Cleric of Yondalla
Man-At-Arms
Dave | |
Knowledge Arcana editor issues 5-9, Phoenix Lore Magazine editor, assistant editor for Rite Publishing;
My Trade Thread and My Reference Thread; Winner of WBC IV, IX and XIII; Rule #0: bshugg is always right! | |
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Gunthar
Commander
2938 Posts
| | 04/04/2006 8:32 PM |
| | Interesting, but I don't think either can take a Marut band on. Sorry Dave, just how I see it. Oner Justicator just isn't enough when facing other Lawful bands. | |
Champion of Prit(Wemic vindication is here)
Minneapolis/St. Paul area
Completed trades: Aspect of Cheese (Love that moniker), Tickparasite, Elderthing, Lalato, Sodj, Grimoire, SmilinIrish, Zeb, RWarehall,Link, wikkawikkawa, Auramancer, Rommers, HK, Ivid5,Qillan_dvra, Puggins, Arcabius, Ironfist Boulderbender, Robby, Corim Danex, monster_slayer, DNDJUNKIE, Kelemvor, Krush, ckissee, Massawyrm, hockey fan, Wish, Uninspiring Lieutenant, vtloon x2, Vrecknidj, Darthpoke, WakeXX, AnarionZell, lycusmike, papabear5 and umpteen local trades with board members
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| D&D Miniatures
Guru
guyf
Sergeant
545 Posts
| | 04/04/2006 8:45 PM |
| | Don't overlook Alusair, particularly when you're running that many flyers. Do the math to see how much a single JA charge for +10 damage affects the number of hits you need on an HGB. | |
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Guy Fullerton
Official D&D Miniatures Net Rep | |
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elder_basilisk
Sergeant
410 Posts
| | 04/04/2006 10:14 PM |
| A band that I ran successfully the one time I tried it:
Cleric of order
justicator
slayer of domiel x2
sacred watcher
Warforged Scout
2x Caravan Guard
I'm sure it could be done better but having two shots at marked target and two survivable flankers as well as a bona fide can opener seems like it has some possibilities. It's in trouble against helmed horrors however.
quote:
Originally posted by Vrecknidj
quote:
Originally posted by ChristopherGroves
I still want to crack the Slayer of Domiel.
Slayer v. HGB = 156 points.If, you can manage to kill the damn thing. So, if you have, say, three JAs and a Slayer, and all three JAs hit in one round (and the HGB is at 150 at that round), then you've got him down to 45. The Slayer will do 25 on the first hit, with a flank, and another 20 on the second hit. So, that would work. I don't know how well those four pieces will do against everything else though. I'd imagine Helmed Horrors could be a problem.
Dave
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Gunthar
Commander
2938 Posts
| | 04/05/2006 3:32 PM |
| Another weird concept that MIGHT work okay if you face dual-Hill Giants the majority of the time:
Couatl 42
Marut 74 116
Spiker Champion x2 68 184
Warforged Scout 8 192
Timber Wolf 5 197
Human Commoner 3 200
-or-
Cleric of the Order 24
Marut 74 98
Spiker Champion x2 68 166
Dwarf Artificer 21 189
Warforged Scout 8 197
Human Commoner 3 200
Basically, plant the Spikers bewtween the Hill Giants and teh Marut. Either the Giants can swing over them at a 29 (or 31!) AC or swing at the Spikers, probably miss a time or two, and take damage from missing, the Marut and most any swings the Spikers get off.
It's a goofy hate band, but might be fun to work with.
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Champion of Prit(Wemic vindication is here)
Minneapolis/St. Paul area
Completed trades: Aspect of Cheese (Love that moniker), Tickparasite, Elderthing, Lalato, Sodj, Grimoire, SmilinIrish, Zeb, RWarehall,Link, wikkawikkawa, Auramancer, Rommers, HK, Ivid5,Qillan_dvra, Puggins, Arcabius, Ironfist Boulderbender, Robby, Corim Danex, monster_slayer, DNDJUNKIE, Kelemvor, Krush, ckissee, Massawyrm, hockey fan, Wish, Uninspiring Lieutenant, vtloon x2, Vrecknidj, Darthpoke, WakeXX, AnarionZell, lycusmike, papabear5 and umpteen local trades with board members
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DinoBen
Sergeant
412 Posts
Based outta Games of Berkeley, CA
| | 04/05/2006 3:37 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Gunthar
The problem with the Wapriest is that you need to assassinate the opposing commander first.
That is what your Gith Monks, Justicators, Justice Archons and potentially Rikka are for. Or... you could lure the HGBs outta line of sight from their commander. Very easy to do on Teleport Temple. | |
Champion of all things Athasian
"Don't sing it - Bring it!" | |
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Vrecknidj
Warlord
10493 Posts
United States
| | 04/05/2006 4:59 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by guyf
Don't overlook Alusair, particularly when you're running that many flyers. Do the math to see how much a single JA charge for +10 damage affects the number of hits you need on an HGB.
Well, for a JA, that's 35 + 10, so 45 damage on a hit. If you're lucky and have three JAs in a band, the HBG has to make a morale save after two hits. Assuming the HGB is down to 60 hp after those two hits, and survives the morale save, one more JA puts him at 15, and he's got three JAs on him.
Presumably, he can take one of them down if his side wins initiative next round. If a fresh HGB then moves in, he can put the smack down on one of the other JAs, dropping him to within a single strike of death.
The LG player then has two JAs, one bad off. They both get all four attacks in, no charge. Assuming they hit every time (a reasonable, but not guaranteed assumption), the first hit kills off the weak HGB. The other HGB is at 150, and takes three hits for 35 each. He's now at 45 (provided he saves).
Next round, he kills one JA, (barring a crit) and the remaining JA kills him.
Not bad.
Now I have to run a conservative estimate against two HHs, a Chraal, and a Duergar. I think the JAs will have more trouble with them.
Dave | |
Knowledge Arcana editor issues 5-9, Phoenix Lore Magazine editor, assistant editor for Rite Publishing;
My Trade Thread and My Reference Thread; Winner of WBC IV, IX and XIII; Rule #0: bshugg is always right! | |
| D&D Miniatures
Guru
guyf
Sergeant
545 Posts
| | 04/05/2006 7:02 PM |
| There are some lessons in your analysis:
You only need one charge to hit. That puts the HGB at 50 damage (Furious Spirit). 105 hp left. That's 3x35 dmg hits exactly. So you are sometimes better off setting up flanks or moving to less vulnerable attack positions and swinging from there.
Of course, if you can hit with multiple charges, you put yourself in a situation where a creature other than a JA can finish the HGB.
Against popular 7 activation HGB warbands, keep in mind that the two HGBs will likely activate in different phases. This means your first JA or two might not attack the HGB that the last JA or two attack that round.
If the JA warband wins init on the round after engagement, there is a high likelyhood of one HGB being eliminated right away. There is a slighly lower likelyhood of the second HGB being forced to make its morale save *that same phase*.
Another wacky data point: In roughly 10 out of every 16 matches against HGBs (Drow Sergeant + Wardrummer 7 activation version) where you can morale check both of them, at least one HGB fails morale. The more morale checks you can force them to make, the more free swings you stand to make, and the dicier it is for them. (There are a couple ways LG can force HGBs to make morale saves. Some ways are more respectable than others.)
Also, with respect to HHs and Chraals: Dragon Shrine is probably your friend, so bring a high commander rating. It's pretty good in general w/JAs versus HGBs, and it certainly doesn't hurt in the matchup vs. HHs and Chraals. | |
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Guy Fullerton
Official D&D Miniatures Net Rep | |
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Chairman7w
Sergeant
484 Posts
| | 04/05/2006 7:06 PM |
| quote:
Guyf wrote: (There are a couple ways LG can force HGBs to make morale saves. Some ways are more respectable than others.)
Are you referring to the Purple Dragon Knight? | |
Dr. Simon: A phrase that's encoded in her brain, that makes her fall asleep. If I speak the words, "Eta...
Jayne: Well don't say it!
Zoë: It only works on her, Jayne. | |
| D&D Miniatures
Guru
guyf
Sergeant
545 Posts
| | 04/05/2006 7:18 PM |
| The PDK is one way. On the Broken Demongate, his speed isn't even an issue. He's one of the better options. (Though he's risky any which way you slice it, since lots of stuff is fearless or nearly so.)
There is another way that's more risky, but flashier. Look at the pieces you typically ignore. | |
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Guy Fullerton
Official D&D Miniatures Net Rep | |
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Wrackspawn
ChristopherGroves
Warlord
6093 Posts
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Chairman7w
Sergeant
484 Posts
| | 04/05/2006 7:42 PM |
| AAaaaahhhhhh, okay - interesting.
I like any ideas that broadaned the creativity of the band makers. Lord knows I'm as guilty as any of simply using what I see. | |
Dr. Simon: A phrase that's encoded in her brain, that makes her fall asleep. If I speak the words, "Eta...
Jayne: Well don't say it!
Zoë: It only works on her, Jayne. | |
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