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CarrionCrawler
Underboss
1760 Posts
    
 | | 05/04/2005 1:33 PM |
| | recovered topic 3243 | |
Vindicated Night Below Champion of the Digestor!!! Knight of the OozesIcons called shot: Angry MobThe stink of rotten meat surrounds this multilegged creature with a segmented, 10-foot long body. Eight writhing tentacles protrude from its head, growing directly from below its clacking mandibles and tooth-filled maw. | |
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CarrionCrawler
Underboss
1760 Posts
| | 05/04/2005 1:33 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Satsujin Kingyo
I was just wondering how the Maxminis community feels about the new races released in the Eberron campaign setting. Here's my two cents.
Warforged- I love 'em, the entire concept is so awesome. 10/10
Shifter- This, like Tiefling and Aasimar really should be a template. It's a cool concept to be sure, but I don't quite get it. 6/10
Changeling- See Shifter. 6/10
Kalashtar- I hate psionics, and the race seems quite bland. 3/10
Warforged--great idea
Shifter/Changeling--Both great additions and great ideas for playing lesser lycanthropes and dopplegangers.
Kalashtar--I love the idea of more psionic material and a new race is great...epecially the whole dual nature thing.
All in all, I love them. Once I read the two Eberron novels, all my reservations about the setting flew out the window. | |
Vindicated Night Below Champion of the Digestor!!! Knight of the OozesIcons called shot: Angry MobThe stink of rotten meat surrounds this multilegged creature with a segmented, 10-foot long body. Eight writhing tentacles protrude from its head, growing directly from below its clacking mandibles and tooth-filled maw. | |
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Satsujin Kingyo
Underboss
1247 Posts
| | 05/04/2005 1:50 PM |
| | Yes, all the races fit into Eberron well, I meant how it fits into your games. I also have to agree with you on the EXCELLENCE of the two recent Eberron novels. | |
Drumsticks can also be chicken. -Tardy Turtle | |
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Monsoon28
Underboss
2299 Posts
Toronto
| | 05/04/2005 2:01 PM |
| I'm sorry but unless you add a level adjustment to the Warforged I think it's overpowered.
Shifter I'm not too sure about, the concept seems pretty cool but it's power-level I'd have to test and compare. | |
"I was sittin' here eatin' my muffin, drinkin' my coffee, replayin' the incident in my head, when I had what alcoholics refer to as a moment of clarity." - Jules Winnfield
Sales/Trades Bad (1): Ironfist Boulderbender
Trades/Sales completed (8.): Danthl, Dafrca, Garyaxe, qillan_dvra, realmaster, Vandal_Savage, cavedweller, unearthed arcana.
Champion of Gem Dragons, VINDICATED Squire of Duergar Commander, Knight of the Astral Stalker.
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Satsujin Kingyo
Underboss
1247 Posts
| | 05/04/2005 2:16 PM |
| | Why do you say the Warforged are over-powered? | |
Drumsticks can also be chicken. -Tardy Turtle | |
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B
Underboss
1189 Posts
| | 05/04/2005 2:26 PM |
| Yep. warforged are immune to WAY too much stuff to avoid a level adjustment. Anyone who was following our progress through he WLD would have heard about my warforged soulknife walking through hordes of kobolds, molds, spores, swarms of stirges, armies of darkmantles, dart traps, fireball traps, vacume traps, gallons of poison, and all without breaking an oily mechanical sweat. If we'd had an artificer it would have been even worse. Warforged are a great idea, but bad in execution.
I like the concept of the shifter, but I wish that Races Of Eberron had gone into more detail on each type of shifter. It's hard to get a feel for a sub race when you only get a 2 line description.
The other races don't really appeal to me at all. | |
Do not go gentle into that good night,
Old age should burn and rave at close of day;
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.--Dylan Thomas
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Satsujin Kingyo
Underboss
1247 Posts
| | 05/04/2005 3:43 PM |
| | True, but consider their weaknesses... poor swimming, no natural healing, reduced effect from healing spells. | |
Drumsticks can also be chicken. -Tardy Turtle | |
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B
Underboss
1189 Posts
| | 05/04/2005 3:51 PM |
| The poor swimming is kind of countered by their lack of breathing. In most situations the warforged will walk along the bottom of a lake or river and come out the other side. The lack of natural healing is countered if you have someone in your party with Craft: pancreas...or whatever skill is used to repair a warforged. In our party the warmage took some ranks in craft, and I was getting back more hit points "naturally" than any of the other pcs. In combat it was difficult for me. The restriction on magical healing does kind of hurt, but with DR 3 and 51 hp at lvl 4 and an ac of 23 I was doing ok. I was even thinking of taking a level or two of artificer to boost myself to even nastier levels.
Honestly, the munchkin side of me loves the warforged, but the roleplayer side of me says that they need a level adjustment. | |
Do not go gentle into that good night,
Old age should burn and rave at close of day;
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.--Dylan Thomas
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Captain Harlock
Sergeant
450 Posts
| | 05/04/2005 3:51 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Satsujin Kingyo
True, but consider their weaknesses... poor swimming, no natural healing, reduced effect from healing spells.
Their weaknesses are minor compared to their advantages (after all, they only have reduced effect from healing spells, but non war-forged get no effects from repair spells. and swimming comes up so rarely that it is a non-disadvantage.) I must agree, that Warforged are for power-munchkins and WAY overpowered.
Dan Cooper | |
Dan Cooper
For there is surely nothing so beautiful than the sight of a lone man facing single-handedly half a ton of angry pot roast.
You will all go directly to your respective vahallas, Go directly, do not pass go do not collect two hundred dollars
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Monsoon28
Underboss
2299 Posts
Toronto
| | 05/04/2005 5:45 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Satsujin Kingyo
True, but consider their weaknesses... poor swimming, no natural healing, reduced effect from healing spells.
Beside what B and Captain Harlock mentioned...with the Repair line of magic healing, Warforged really don't miss out on anything healing it just requires the cleric to use up slots he normally wouldn't be wasting.
All those immunities, the light fortification and the fact it doesn't need to eat, breathe (don't need to waste ranks on swim!) or sleep (well look who just volunteered to take watch ALL night!) just makes him too good. Heck Aasimar and Tiefling get slammed with a +1 LA (which they deserve) why not the Warforged?
But is the general concensus on shifter? Are they balanced?? | |
"I was sittin' here eatin' my muffin, drinkin' my coffee, replayin' the incident in my head, when I had what alcoholics refer to as a moment of clarity." - Jules Winnfield
Sales/Trades Bad (1): Ironfist Boulderbender
Trades/Sales completed (8.): Danthl, Dafrca, Garyaxe, qillan_dvra, realmaster, Vandal_Savage, cavedweller, unearthed arcana.
Champion of Gem Dragons, VINDICATED Squire of Duergar Commander, Knight of the Astral Stalker.
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Okay McKay
Underboss
1068 Posts
| | 05/04/2005 6:09 PM |
| | I guess it's more of a subrace... but I really like the Whisper Gnome. | |
"It's an automatic robot, based on science." | |
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B
Underboss
1189 Posts
| | 05/04/2005 6:38 PM |
| I haven't had a chance to play a shifter yet, but by all appearances they seem fine. They only get to shift once/day unless they take more shifter feats. Their attribute modifiers kind of railroad them towards fighter types or druids, and I really can't think of anything unbalancing about them that wouldn't be the same for a barbarian. I think they are fine.
I've been having issues with WoTC's determination of ecl lately. I don't understand why the genasi have and ecl +1 and the shifter and warforged don't. I've never been impressed with the abilities that the genasi get. Does anyone know what type of system they use to determine what will have an Ecl? | |
Do not go gentle into that good night,
Old age should burn and rave at close of day;
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.--Dylan Thomas
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Grim
Sergeant
482 Posts
| | 05/04/2005 7:02 PM |
| | Comparing the two, it boggles me as well why the genasi would have an ECL. From interviews and articles I've read, it seems as though Baker didn't want any ECL +1 races for Eberron but undercosted the warforged in a big way. Immunity to poison alone has to be worth at least a +1. What other ECL 0 races are immune to all poisons? | |
I am a leaf on the wind...Urrk!!--Wash, "Serenity" | |
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B
Underboss
1189 Posts
| | 05/04/2005 7:06 PM |
| | ....and paralysis...and have DR at first level..... | |
Do not go gentle into that good night,
Old age should burn and rave at close of day;
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.--Dylan Thomas
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Testament
Underboss
1397 Posts
| | 05/04/2005 7:49 PM |
| Dwarves are effectively immune to poison, what with their massive fort saves. Heck, how Dwarves avoid an LA puzzles me, what with +2 to all saving throws against spells, which accounts for 90% of saves, near immunity to poison, +2 to con but only -2 to Cha, no speed penalty for armour AND weapon familiarity with two Kick-A weapons.
Posion, really, is a non-issue for any class with a halfway decent fortitude save. And from play experience, unless you have an Artificer or a REALLY generous Wiz/Sorc, healing is a pain for the WF. Stirges should have affected them by RAW, since they're not immune to Ability Damage or Drain. They also have no special vision (a major weakness)), and lose their first feat if they want any armour to speak of. I've said it before and I'll say it again, they're LA +0.5. And I love 'em, just read their chapter in RoE and you'll see why.
Shifters are another race I love, although that's partly the Druid/Werewolf: The Apocalypse player coming out in me. The idea of a customizable race like that is pure brilliance, and their abilities are just sweet. They're also, sadly, a highly munchkinable race (cough Weretouched Master*! cough), but massively feat dependant when it comes to twinking. If you want to munchkin it up as a Shifter and hit that PrC, you need to be a fighter or ranger.
Changelings are just cool, although more than any other race, require the GM to think laterally and be prepared for any investigative story to be smashed wide open by their shapechanging.
Kalashtar are a fascinating race background wise, although I still can't shake the feeling of Stargate SG-1 rip-off.
*This PrC is, quite simply, one of the most broken ever printed. Only Runesmith, Earth Dreamer, RSoP and the grand-daddy of them all, Shadowcraft Mage top it. | |
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MerricB
Underboss
2350 Posts
Australia
| | 05/04/2005 8:03 PM |
| Warforged are all about defence. They're great at it... but, boy they suffer at how well they can do damage. Mid- to high-level monks are also untouchable, but they don't do much damage.
The immunities of the Warforged just aren't significant at the higher levels, either. At level 4 the Warforged is great - by level 12, no-one cares about poison!
Likewise with DR. At level 1 it is significant. By level 8, two or three points of DR means nothing.
Cheers! | |
Merric Blackman
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B
Underboss
1189 Posts
| | 05/04/2005 8:05 PM |
| ok...I may have downplayed the stirges. I lost 16 con points....BUT I WALKED AWAY UNDER MY OWN POWER!!
Concerning poison. There is a marked difference between poison immunity, and a high fort save. We had a halfling spirit shaman in the group who had to make...I think 9 poison saves in a row. He had a huge bonus to his fort..like +9 or +10 at 4th level. He made 6. That's the difference. I didn't have to save at all. 0% chance of failure. | |
Do not go gentle into that good night,
Old age should burn and rave at close of day;
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.--Dylan Thomas
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Monsoon28
Underboss
2299 Posts
Toronto
| | 05/04/2005 8:20 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by MerricB
Warforged are all about defence. They're great at it... but, boy they suffer at how well they can do damage. Mid- to high-level monks are also untouchable, but they don't do much damage.
The immunities of the Warforged just aren't significant at the higher levels, either. At level 4 the Warforged is great - by level 12, no-one cares about poison!
Likewise with DR. At level 1 it is significant. By level 8, two or three points of DR means nothing.
Cheers!
The problem is that can be said for most races with a LA of +1, I mean by 10th level is it such a big deal that they have Resistance 5/cold,acid,elec? Darkvision, when the helm is so inexpensive. Genasi?? Hobgoblin?? etc...
It's as those low levels where those kind of advantages really matter. After all 12th level is only good if you can survive that long! [)] | |
"I was sittin' here eatin' my muffin, drinkin' my coffee, replayin' the incident in my head, when I had what alcoholics refer to as a moment of clarity." - Jules Winnfield
Sales/Trades Bad (1): Ironfist Boulderbender
Trades/Sales completed (8.): Danthl, Dafrca, Garyaxe, qillan_dvra, realmaster, Vandal_Savage, cavedweller, unearthed arcana.
Champion of Gem Dragons, VINDICATED Squire of Duergar Commander, Knight of the Astral Stalker.
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B
Underboss
1189 Posts
| | 05/04/2005 8:48 PM |
| I totally agree that any advantage at low level is signifigant. I don't think that poison is a non-factor at higher levels. Usually, at higher levels you will run into poisons that are more deadly.
Think of it this way. At level 4 your dwarven fighter/cleric/barbarian/druid rolls a 1 on his fort save vs poison. The most likely result is the loss if 1d6 con. The dwarf laughs.
At level 12 your dwarven ftr 3/ clr 3/ barb 3/ druid 3 rolls a one on his fort save. The most likely result: Death. The dwarf stops laughing.
At higher level poison is still a big danger if it is used correctly. This is where immunity to something is worth it's weight in gold. It takes away that random factor of the d20. Thsi really showcases the mini's mantra: a 1 is still a 1.
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Do not go gentle into that good night,
Old age should burn and rave at close of day;
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.--Dylan Thomas
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| Thoth, Gatherer of Knowledge
MerricB
Underboss
2350 Posts
Australia
| | 05/04/2005 9:26 PM |
| The problem is that by 8th+ level you just aren't going up against poisonous threats. Spells and just plain melee damage are far more significant, and the warforged is significantly not immune.
Sure, the warforged character doesn't have to worry about one facet of danger, but neither does the rogue really have to worry about fireballs...
Cheers! | |
Merric Blackman
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B
Underboss
1189 Posts
| | 05/04/2005 9:31 PM |
| | So I should play a warforged rogue then? [:D] | |
Do not go gentle into that good night,
Old age should burn and rave at close of day;
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.--Dylan Thomas
| |
| Thoth, Gatherer of Knowledge
MerricB
Underboss
2350 Posts
Australia
| | 05/04/2005 9:42 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by B
So I should play a warforged rogue then? [:D]
Go ahead. Warforged Monk is probably an even better defensive choice, though. [:)]
Could you post the stats of your Warforged? It'd give us a basis for comparison.
Cheers!
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Merric Blackman
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B
Underboss
1189 Posts
| | 05/04/2005 10:03 PM |
| Sure.
Bastion Male persona warforged soulknife 5
Medium living construct
HD:5d10+20 HP: 59 Init: +1 SPD: 20 ft AC:22 Touch: 11 Flat Footed:20 BAB +3 GRP +6
Minblade +8 1d8+4
Slam +5 1d4+3
Special Qualities: Immune poison, sleep,paralysis,disease,nausea,fatigue,exhaustion,sicken,energy drain; DR 3/adamantine; 25% resist critical; 1/2 effectiveness of healing spells; Resist fire 5 ( gained in a room in WLD); +1 mindblade; Free Draw; Shape Mind Blade; Empower mindblade +1d8
AL:LN FORT +5 REF +5 WILL +4
STR: 17 DEX: 13 CON: 18 INT: 10 WIS: 11 CHA: 9
Climb + 9; Concentration +7; Jump +9; Listen +6; Spot +6
Adamantine body; Improved DR; Weapon focus: mind blade: Wild talent
Notable possessions: +1 large steel shield.
That him R.I.P. | |
Do not go gentle into that good night,
Old age should burn and rave at close of day;
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.--Dylan Thomas
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Grim
Sergeant
482 Posts
| | 05/04/2005 10:22 PM |
| | Warforged are resistant or immune to many of the dangers often encountered at low levels. Poison immunity is huge at low levels. So is disease immunity before your cleric reaches a level where he can cure the effects. Can't be drowned (sorry water elemental), strangled (sorry choker), troglodytes can't sicken him with their stench, never sleeps or gets tired so eternally on watch, ignores 1/4 of all critical hits, takes 2 damage off every hit (saving the character 1000s of hp over the life of the campaign). This has to be worth ECL +1 at least.A few posters have mentioned that certain characters get high saves versus many of these attacks, the bottom line is they still have to roll (and can get that dreaded 1)while the Warforged is 100% immune. | |
I am a leaf on the wind...Urrk!!--Wash, "Serenity" | |
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Lab Monkey
Commander
4135 Posts
| | 05/04/2005 10:33 PM |
| Not all warforged have DR. That requires a feat and most of the time it will be your 1st level feat. Definitely a significant cost at low levels.
I'm on the fence with warforged. We start a new campaign next Saturday that will include a warforged fighter and a dwarven artificer. I'm very interested to see how this will play out. | |
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Testament
Underboss
1397 Posts
| | 05/04/2005 10:44 PM |
| That's the point though, after low level it IS irrelevant. Compare that to a Hobgoblin, which has bonuses to TWO save stats, including Fort, THE most important save of all. Or an Aasimar, which has a majorly useful SLA, which is the equivalent of a 3rd level spell. Both also have Darkvision, another major boost (and don't talk to me about that waste of a slot Helm).
Warforged also have to give up their first level feat to get any appreciable armour, or to be able to take two classes (Monk, Druid). They lose a magic item slot PERMANENTLY, don't heal*, have a permanent ASF and armour check penalty, weigh more than double any other character (hi there rope bridges and pressure plates!), and are vulnerable to a bunch of extra spells. They can also never take advantage of any found armour, no matter how sweet it may be. And to top it all off, they have a penalty to Wis, reducing their will save and their modifier to the two most important skills in the game, Spot and Listen.
Grim, they can be strangled by the Choker's constrict damage. And the DR costs them their first level feat. Feats are a major resource, and unless you're a fighter, you don't get very many. B, being able to walk away is a boon of your con score, not necessarily race. Nor does poison show up after the first four levels or so, unless you're fighting a lot of Yuan-Ti or Drow. And in Eberron, if you're facing them, then you obviously went to Xen'Drik, in which case any PC who went there without a boatload of Remove Poison potions DESERVES TO DIE!
*I reiterate, that unless you have an Artificer (not a given) or a generous wizard, this is a major issue. And no sane sorc is going to waste a valuable spell known slot on a repair spell! Repairing yourself requires 8 hours of work and a Craft check, and gives few HP. And if the WF is doing that, then it ain't on watch, and its also making a lot of noise! | |
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glauron
Underboss
1379 Posts
Sydney, Australia
| | 05/05/2005 12:24 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by B
Sure.
Bastion Male persona warforged soulknife 5
Medium living construct
Interesting name for a warforged! Rather famous in fact.
Warforged are new and interesting and have plenty of weaknesses to exploit too, depending on character class.
The person who plays a warforged fighter in our group is a hoot, and how he roleplays just blows away any consideration about whether or not it's a munchkin 'race'.
We agreed to 'designate' him CN996-3-1, until he worked out a name for himself. Now this guy is a mimic. He introduces himself as CN996-3-1 in a borg voice "We are CN996-3-1". In battle he is a dalek "Exterminate", other times he's a cylon (from the original series) "By your command".
The designation translates to CN (made by House Cannith) in YK996 towards end of Last War so not purchased by one of the warring nations, 3: Month of Therendor; 1: made on first day of month.
He's on a name quest right now, and every time he meets a warforged he just asks question after question about where they got their name from. Too funny. | |
I have always been here. | |
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B
Underboss
1189 Posts
| | 05/05/2005 2:34 AM |
| Hmm famous name, eh? Is it really from the eberron setting? I just kind of wanted something that sounded solid.
Concerning spending a feat on adamantine body....I can't think of another feat that measures up to that one. I don't mind spending my one and only feat on it. | |
Do not go gentle into that good night,
Old age should burn and rave at close of day;
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.--Dylan Thomas
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Testament
Underboss
1397 Posts
| | 05/05/2005 2:48 AM |
| | I don't know, Mithral Body's pretty cool, as is Mithral Fluidity. Then again, for a non-stop dungeon bash like the WLD, the added survivability is good. | |
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| Hero of the Force
Siddartha of Suburbia
Underboss
2277 Posts
| | 05/05/2005 7:25 AM |
| The other reason I think that warforged seem so powerful to those of us in the same gaming group (B, Grim, Killer_rabbit, dargma, etc.) is that B played his warforged in the world's largest dungeon.
The dungeon never knew there was such a thing as a warforged, so unlike a normal game created by the imagination of our DM, which would have been able to exploit the weaknesses properly, we got a dungeon with exactly the kinds of threats that show off the WF strengths.
So maybe it's not ooverpowered, and by that I mean, I want to play one someday, darn you B for ruining it for everyone, maybe Grim should change his mind and allow me to play one someday.[:D] | |
"We can't stop here...This Is Bat country!"
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Testament
Underboss
1397 Posts
| | 05/05/2005 7:47 AM |
| DINGDINGDINGDINGDINGDING!!!
Thank you Siddartha! I don't care what Races of Eberron says, the races unique to that world should remain thus. Warforged and Changelings especially have such unique and amazing abilities that running them in other worlds, ESPECIALLY in prefab modules is a recipie for "ZOMG THEYS SO BORKEN!" since the module doesn't take those abilities into account.
Running an Eberron or better yet, a homebrew adventure removes that problem, since the mod or the GM CAN take into account these abilities.
From my play experience, a Changeling is an even bigger gamebreaker than a Warforged. Warforged abilites are combat based, where good saves and the like can simulate their abilites (other than immunity to Energy Drain). Not much that can mimic the social power of a Changeling Rogue; check it out, its got permanent disguise self AND the skill points to back it up!
Grim, give the Warforged another chance, preferably in an Eberron or homebrew game. Shadows of the Last War is a good module, and doesn't play right into the strengths of the race like WLD does. They do force you to think about adventure design a bit more at lower levels, but that's no worse than what the wizard does at mid levels onwards. | |
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MerricB
Underboss
2350 Posts
Australia
| | 05/05/2005 9:21 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Testament
I don't care what Races of Eberron says, the races unique to that world should remain thus.
I don't believe that; I think that homebrew worlds can have any races they like.
Cheers! | |
Merric Blackman
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Grim
Sergeant
482 Posts
| | 05/05/2005 6:14 PM |
| | I'd hate to start down that slippery slope as far as only allowing races from a setting in ONLY that setting. Applying the same logic further, prestige classes (say, from Magic of Faerun) shouldn't be allowed in a non-FR game either. or FR spells. Or unique magic items. Or new monsters. The reason I allowed B to play a warforged, and Sid a warmage, and Killer Rabbit a spirit shaman and another friend an elan psion in the WLD was because they were test cases to show me what the races and classes were like in actual play without harming the integrity of my homebrew. Since the WLD is self contained, no harm done. It would have been a nightmare to try to remove these races and classes from an ongoing campaign (kind of throws realism out the window and jars everyone to the real world when you anounce that all the elan just had a collective brain anurism and keeled over and that the warforged are suddenly recalled for high chance of rollover, never a good thing while roleplaying.) | |
I am a leaf on the wind...Urrk!!--Wash, "Serenity" | |
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IanB
Commander
3112 Posts
| | 05/05/2005 8:05 PM |
| I don't think that you can argue the DR as a factor in whether or not they need a level adjustment. They get it via a feat; the question then becomes "is the feat balanced," moreso "is the race balanced." Obviously the armor feats have to be more powerful than normal feats, though, to make up for the warforged's one gigantic weakness.
I think the lack of ability to wear found armor is a HUGE liability for the warforged, and has not been given enough weight in the discussion. Adamantine body is fine, but you're not going to make any friends with the rest of the group when you have to stand still for 45 days while you get yourself enchanted in order for your AC to keep up with the game at higher levels.
To me that alone justifies leaving off the level adjustment. | |
Anson on WotC boards | |
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Grim
Sergeant
482 Posts
| | 05/05/2005 8:14 PM |
| | AFAIK, there is a feat in the Races of Eberon book that allows a Warforged to be unarmored and thus wear found armor. This would kind of kill a major disadvantage. Then again, a +8 armor bonus is nothing to sneeze at in my games. A Chainshirt +4, Breastplate +3, or even enchanted +1 Full Plate are pretty rare items. I suppose it all depends on how many magicians out there are burning their xp for armor they can't wear or weapons they can't weild. My NPC's always charge through the nose for such a thing. | |
I am a leaf on the wind...Urrk!!--Wash, "Serenity" | |
| Thoth, Gatherer of Knowledge
MerricB
Underboss
2350 Posts
Australia
| | 05/05/2005 8:23 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Grim
AFAIK, there is a feat in the Races of Eberon book that allows a Warforged to be unarmored and thus wear found armor. This would kind of kill a major disadvantage. Then again, a +8 armor bonus is nothing to sneeze at in my games. A Chainshirt +4, Breastplate +3, or even enchanted +1 Full Plate are pretty rare items. I suppose it all depends on how many magicians out there are burning their xp for armor they can't wear or weapons they can't weild. My NPC's always charge through the nose for such a thing.
Yes, spend your first level feat to get rid of your armour bonus and arcane casting failure chance. As far as feats go, it's probably the only one I've ever seen that specifically makes you weaker!
Cheers! | |
Merric Blackman
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IanB
Commander
3112 Posts
| | 05/05/2005 8:42 PM |
| That's an interesting option for the warforged. Seems about worth a feat to me.
As far as the +8 armor bonus being a lot, that's the same amount as an unenchanted suit of full plate. If they're rare in your game it is indeed possible that the warforged is unbalanced in that environment. However, in a game with baseline loot distribution, the warforged will start to fall behind normal fighters in AC in the mid to high levels without spending fairly long chunks of downtime getting himself enchanted.
Take a look at the gear that the 'standard' NPCs in the DMG have at each level to see where the WF will start to lag behind.
Now, a warforged monk doesn't have that problem, and indeed is advantaged in that it can use the bracers slot for something other than an armor bonus. I can't see assigning a level adjustment because one class breaks out of 11 though. I could maybe see telling the player that no self-respecting monastery will train a warforged. ;) | |
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Testament
Underboss
1397 Posts
| | 05/05/2005 9:24 PM |
| Yeah, but IanB, a Warforged Monk who doesn't take Unarmoured Body loses half of his monk abilities because he's armoured!
What I meant to say was that the Eberron races shouldn't be incorporated into a standard setting. Homebrews work because you can customise easier, but pre-written modules can be smashed open by the unique ability set of a WF.
Oh, and Grim, I wouldn't allow 90% of the material from Magic of Fareun, but that's mainly because of how overpowered most of that book is. Dweomercheater of Mystra, AKA the Theurge that doesn't suck? And I don't use PrCs from FRealms or specific worlds either, but YMMV. | |
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IanB
Commander
3112 Posts
| | 05/05/2005 9:50 PM |
| Hm, yeah I guess that is true, it hadn't occurred to me.
Even more reason to have no LA! ;) | |
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glauron
Underboss
1379 Posts
Sydney, Australia
| | 05/05/2005 10:20 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by B
Hmm famous name, eh? Is it really from the eberron setting? I just kind of wanted something that sounded solid.
My bad. I'm blaming the medication I'm on.
I got Bastion mixed up with Bulwark, p19 RoE.
So a good name that may one day be made famous. [:)] | |
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