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glauron
Underboss
1379 Posts
    
Sydney, Australia
 | | 05/05/2005 10:31 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Lab Monkey
Not all warforged have DR. That requires a feat and most of the time it will be your 1st level feat. Definitely a significant cost at low levels.
I'm on the fence with warforged. We start a new campaign next Saturday that will include a warforged fighter and a dwarven artificer. I'm very interested to see how this will play out.
My campaign has a warforged with adamantine armor, large steel shield, Dex 12. That was AC 21 to start. And with a mwk bastard sword he found in adventure 1, plus weapon focus bastard sword, Str 18, his to hit bonus was +7. Freakin awesome for L1. Plus he had a gnome artificer buddy who healed him when he did rarely get hit.
He chewed through the L1 opposition (and even a L3 warforged fighter thanks to support from the artificer). At L4 now he's sort of coming back to the field, and his low will save regularly gets targeted, and the nasty evil spellcasters who throw repel wood, warp wood, rusting grasp and heat metal at him, why it's positively unfair [:)]
A L1 warforged fighter can be deadly. Be ready for it, but don't sweat it. A good DM will make sure that the PC is challenged. | |
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Captain Harlock
Sergeant
450 Posts
| | 05/06/2005 10:08 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Testament
That's the point though, after low level it IS irrelevant. Compare that to a Hobgoblin, which has bonuses to TWO save stats, including Fort, THE most important save of all.
Fort, the most important save? I would like to see that one explained.
quote:
Or an Aasimar, which has a majorly useful SLA, which is the equivalent of a 3rd level spell. Both also have Darkvision, another major boost (and don't talk to me about that waste of a slot Helm).
Warforged also have to give up their first level feat to get any appreciable armour,
Ah, but their natural armor is better than anything you can buy for a low level spell caster.
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or to be able to take two classes (Monk, Druid). They lose a magic item slot PERMANENTLY,
What slot do they lose? After all, their natrual armor can be enchanted, and they do not have to pay for masterwork armor to do it.
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don't heal*, have a permanent ASF and armour check penalty, weigh more than double any other character (hi there rope bridges and pressure plates!), and are vulnerable to a bunch of extra spells.
While being invulnerable to a bunch of things
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They can also never take advantage of any found armour, no matter how sweet it may be.
See above comment
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And to top it all off, they have a penalty to Wis, reducing their will save and their modifier to the two most important skills in the game, Spot and Listen.
Which are made even less important at higher levels than saves against poison.
*I reiterate, that unless you have an Artificer (not a given) or a generous wizard, this is a major issue. And no sane sorc is going to waste a valuable spell known slot on a repair spell! Repairing yourself requires 8 hours of work and a Craft check, and gives few HP. And if the WF is doing that, then it ain't on watch, and its also making a lot of noise!
[/quote]
I would not have much fun in the groups you play in, then, as in the groups I play in (even the Living Campaign groups), that type of "generousity" is second nature. They take slots so their friend can live and when they can, they start making or buying wands of repair. (This was shown to me in Living Dragonstar.) Whether it is generousity or enlightened self-interest, I do not know, but it is still done.
Dan Cooper | |
Dan Cooper
For there is surely nothing so beautiful than the sight of a lone man facing single-handedly half a ton of angry pot roast.
You will all go directly to your respective vahallas, Go directly, do not pass go do not collect two hundred dollars
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Testament
Underboss
1397 Posts
| | 05/08/2005 12:24 AM |
| Fort is the most important save for a simple reason. Reflex is just HP loss (frustrating, but not serious), Will effects shut you down (at higher levels they can be worse, but thats why you get a permanent Mind Blank ASAP), Fort based effects kill you.
Warforged can get their bodies enchanted, but it requires them to take a whole boatload of down-time while it gets done. The lost item slot in question is the Robe slot. Not a HUGE loss, but still a royal PITA. True that their composite plate is better than what you can get for a low level caster, but if you're an arcane caster, you have a permanent ASF chance (unless you take unarmoured body, the only feat that makes you WEAKER!), and if you're anything else, then you have to sac your feat to get decent armour.
I have seen wizards prep one or two repair spells now, usually low level ones, and only when they have slots to spare. Wands are something that they're willing to use, if the forged brings one. Resources aren't infinite, and IME, most people would rather dedicate their resources to themselves. And I maintain that a normal sorc with half a brain is NEVER EVER EVER going to waste a spell known of Repair X, he's barely got enough spells known as it is.
I'll keep comments about Dragonstar to myself, since they add precisely nothing to this matter.
We've been here before Harlock, and I don't think either of us are going to convince the other. I'm firmly of the belief that they're LA 0, barely, while you seem to think that they're a +1, if not +2. I propose an agreement to disagree on this matter, and only use it in future to snipe at each other and boost our post count. | |
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Captain Harlock
Sergeant
450 Posts
| | 05/08/2005 2:13 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Testament
Fort is the most important save for a simple reason. Reflex is just HP loss (frustrating, but not serious)
You lose enough hit points, you die. Especially with those 20 or 25 die spells.
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, Will effects shut you down (at higher levels they can be worse, but thats why you get a permanent Mind Blank ASAP)
Like that is a cheapie.
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, Fort based effects kill you.
They all do.
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Warforged can get their bodies enchanted, but it requires them to take a whole boatload of down-time while it gets done.
1 day for +1? For +5 its only 25 days. That is a boatload? That is barely a loss.
quote:
The lost item slot in question is the Robe slot. Not a HUGE loss, but still a royal PITA. True that their composite plate is better than what you can get for a low level caster, but if you're an arcane caster, you have a permanent ASF chance (unless you take unarmoured body, the only feat that makes you WEAKER!),
But the ASF is less than any armor you can buy with the equivilant protection.
quote:
and if you're anything else, then you have to sac your feat to get decent armour.
But that armor is MUCH better than an equivilant leveled character can buy, and can be enchanted much earlier.
quote:
I have seen wizards prep one or two repair spells now, usually low level ones, and only when they have slots to spare. Wands are something that they're willing to use, if the forged brings one. Resources aren't infinite, and IME, most people would rather dedicate their resources to themselves. And I maintain that a normal sorc with half a brain is NEVER EVER EVER going to waste a spell known of Repair X, he's barely got enough spells known as it is.
Like I said, I would hate to play in your groups. The people I tend to play with would make the repair wands so they could have around a warforged, and would not think twice about spending the spell slots to have the repair spell.
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I'll keep comments about Dragonstar to myself, since they add precisely nothing to this matter.
I disagree here, as the Soulmechs are very similar to the Warforged.
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We've been here before Harlock, and I don't think either of us are going to convince the other. I'm firmly of the belief that they're LA 0, barely, while you seem to think that they're a +1, if not +2. I propose an agreement to disagree on this matter, and only use it in future to snipe at each other and boost our post count.
Yeah, but I got others to convince.
Dan Cooper | |
Dan Cooper
For there is surely nothing so beautiful than the sight of a lone man facing single-handedly half a ton of angry pot roast.
You will all go directly to your respective vahallas, Go directly, do not pass go do not collect two hundred dollars
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Testament
Underboss
1397 Posts
| | 05/08/2005 8:49 PM |
| Lose enough hit points and you die, yes. You can, however, get HPs back easily enough as a member of any other race, and it usually takes a couple of reflex effects to do in anyone with a HD bigger than a 6. Fort based effects just kill you there and then, ONE shot. And to make it worse, most of the fort effects mean that a Raise Dead won't bring you back! That's why fort is the most important save.
While you have a +2 AC bonus and an ASF that is lower than the equivalent physical armour, you're still lumped with an ASF! I don't know any arcane caster players (other than Warmages) who'll put up with an ASF.
And yes, the armour that the feat provides is awesome, but considering that I'm blowing A FEAT, I want something amazing to show for it! On a fighter, that's cleave a level later, and means that my entire feat progression has been wound back. Its a price that you never stop paying.
On the repair matter, the wand is something that I'd expect the WF to pony up the dough for, or if I'm gonna have to make it for him then I want compensation to. Then again, I'd expect anyone to pay for what I'm going to be making for them, I am burning the XP. A wizard will prep repair spells too, at the lower slots (usually second, not much competition there with the 3.5 gutting of the animal buffs), after he's loaded up on the general spells, but I still say any Sorc who learns one needs his head checked. Its a matter of resource management for arcane casters, they don't have the ability to convert to healing like a cleric does, and if they're loading up on repair for ONE party member, that member's SCREWING the rest of the party.
Soulmechs you say...my comment about Dragonstar meant that I'd keep my opinions on that joke of a setting to myself. I don't know enough about Dragonstar to comment meaningfully, since I've never played that setting, and consider myself fortunate for it. I took one look at the Guide to the Galaxy, and handed it back laughing and then washed my hands and eyes to remove the taint.
You keep trying to convince others, go ahead. I'll just sit back content in the knowledge that you're wrong, chiming in to whore for post count. | |
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Captain Harlock
Sergeant
450 Posts
| | 05/08/2005 11:09 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Testament
Lose enough hit points and you die, yes. You can, however, get HPs back easily enough as a member of any other race, and it usually takes a couple of reflex effects to do in anyone with a HD bigger than a 6. Fort based effects just kill you there and then, ONE shot. And to make it worse, most of the fort effects mean that a Raise Dead won't bring you back! That's why fort is the most important save.
Yeah, but that is only if you fail the save. If you make the save, then the damage is minimal. (Compare 3d6+level for failing a save for a finger of death spell versus 7d6 for a delayed blast fireball, and the fireball gets your friends as well.)
quote:
While you have a +2 AC bonus and an ASF that is lower than the equivalent physical armour, you're still lumped with an ASF! I don't know any arcane caster players (other than Warmages) who'll put up with an ASF.
I know of players who will, including myself. And if you are really worried about it, the you become a warforged bard. Then he can cast spells and half no ASF.
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And yes, the armour that the feat provides is awesome, but considering that I'm blowing A FEAT, I want something amazing to show for it! On a fighter, that's cleave a level later, and means that my entire feat progression has been wound back. Its a price that you never stop paying.
Yeah, but you are getting massive defense bonuses which help all the time, as opposed to cleave that is only occasionally useful.
quote:
On the repair matter, the wand is something that I'd expect the WF to pony up the dough for, or if I'm gonna have to make it for him then I want compensation to. Then again, I'd expect anyone to pay for what I'm going to be making for them, I am burning the XP.
The saying "Greed is good" comes to mind when I see that.
quote:
A wizard will prep repair spells too, at the lower slots (usually second, not much competition there with the 3.5 gutting of the animal buffs), after he's loaded up on the general spells, but I still say any Sorc who learns one needs his head checked. Its a matter of resource management for arcane casters, they don't have the ability to convert to healing like a cleric does, and if they're loading up on repair for ONE party member, that member's SCREWING the rest of the party.
Not at all, as keeping that one party member alive (since Sorcerer's can not learn healing spells.) helps keep every other member of the party alive. Especially a Warforged Fighter.
quote:
Soulmechs you say...my comment about Dragonstar meant that I'd keep my opinions on that joke of a setting to myself. I don't know enough about Dragonstar to comment meaningfully, since I've never played that setting, and consider myself fortunate for it. I took one look at the Guide to the Galaxy, and handed it back laughing and then washed my hands and eyes to remove the taint.
You keep trying to convince others, go ahead. I'll just sit back content in the knowledge that you're wrong, chiming in to whore for post count.
Thats okay, I will sit back content in the knowledge that not only are you wrong, but you are a liar and a power gaming munchkin
Dan Cooper | |
Dan Cooper
For there is surely nothing so beautiful than the sight of a lone man facing single-handedly half a ton of angry pot roast.
You will all go directly to your respective vahallas, Go directly, do not pass go do not collect two hundred dollars
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|
Testament
Underboss
1397 Posts
| | 05/08/2005 11:33 PM |
| Right, I'll try to keep this as my last post on the matter.
1. Becoming a Bard allows you only to cast bardic spells with no ASF. I personally don't consider them an arcane class so much as a skill user, so I didn't think of them anyway.
2. The massive defence bonus is less relevant at later levels, since the rest of the party has caught up.
3. Damn right Greed is Good. Then again, this game is (at its core) based around killing monsters, and taking their stuff. Then using that stuff to kill bigger monsters and get better stuff.
This, however, I would like explained:
quote:
Thats okay, I will sit back content in the knowledge that not only are you wrong, but you are a liar and a power gaming munchkin
Especially the liar part, which seems completely unfounded. Heck, I'm guessing you consider me a power gamer for liking Warforged and considering them to be LA 0, but something tells that there's more.
Oh, and in my last post, the bit about "sitting back content..." was me being flippant. Should've included the evil smiley. | |
Support awesome games: Play Hecatomb!
8-Bit Chibi Goths forever!
Champion of Mephistopheles
"Sorry! I was tryin' to open these beans!"
My Have/Want List, (Updated July 6 2004, will be updated soon)
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Captain Harlock
Sergeant
450 Posts
| | 05/09/2005 10:24 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Testament
Right, I'll try to keep this as my last post on the matter.
1. Becoming a Bard allows you only to cast bardic spells with no ASF. I personally don't consider them an arcane class so much as a skill user, so I didn't think of them anyway.
2. The massive defence bonus is less relevant at later levels, since the rest of the party has caught up.
3. Damn right Greed is Good. Then again, this game is (at its core) based around killing monsters, and taking their stuff. Then using that stuff to kill bigger monsters and get better stuff.
Yes, but it is also a game about teamwork. And sure, you can say that the Warforged Fighter needs to pay you, but then don't be surprised when you are being charged by ogres and the same Warforged Fighter turns to you and asks you how much you will pay for him not to let those ogres get close enough to kill you. The price for a repair heavy damage is 11250 gp, 12 days and 450 exp. The minimum price for a raise dead is 4500 gp and a minimum of 1000 xp (or 1 con point if you are first level.)
This, however, I would like explained:
quote:
Thats okay, I will sit back content in the knowledge that not only are you wrong, but you are a liar and a power gaming munchkin
Especially the liar part, which seems completely unfounded. Heck, I'm guessing you consider me a power gamer for liking Warforged and considering them to be LA 0, but something tells that there's more.
Oh, and in my last post, the bit about "sitting back content..." was me being flippant. Should've included the evil smiley.
[/quote]
Yes, you should have, as then I would not have taken as much offence. However, you are always pointing out how the Composite armor prevents the Warforged from taking certain classes then the Ebberron Campaign Setting Book says nothing of the kind. In fact, you look through it, and it definitely infers the very opposite, that the basic Composite Armor does not prevent the warforged from functioning in ANY class. One of the recent examples you use is druid. This is not mentioned in the warforged race description. It is made explicitly clear, however,in both the adamantine body feat and the mithral body feat that when the warforged druid takes those feat, then that character can not cast druid spells or use any of the druid's supernatural or spell-like abilities. The fact that they use the words Warforged Druid in both those cases shows that Warforged CAN be druids, and that they wrote that restriction in the two feats and not in the base composite armor description shows that the composite armor of a normal warforged does not interfere with being a druid. Another class you said warforged could not be was Monk, yet in the Eberron Campaign Setting book, in the Monk class section, they have a specific instruction on how Wholeness of body effects a Warforged Monk. They would not have put that in if Warforged could not be monks. (Can you say Rules Lawyer...yep I am.)
As for a feat having a "bang for the buck", how about a feat that gives you armor that is considered light, yet gives you one point better armor bonus then the best unenchanted light armor, one point better max dex bonus then the unenchanted light armor with the best armor, the same armor check penalty as the unenchanted light armor with the best armor bonus, has 5% less ASF, has the equivilant of a +1 enchantment on it that never counts against your armor enchantment total, therefore allowing your character to have up to a +11 armor when other characters can only get +10, AND it does not interfere with your ranger or rogue abilities. To me, that sounds great for a 2 handed melee weapon ranger. And that is the Mithral Body feat.
Dan Cooper | |
Dan Cooper
For there is surely nothing so beautiful than the sight of a lone man facing single-handedly half a ton of angry pot roast.
You will all go directly to your respective vahallas, Go directly, do not pass go do not collect two hundred dollars
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