Retired Tank
Vulturedoodle
Sergeant
791 Posts
    
 | | 06/03/2005 11:47 AM |
| | recovered topic 4355 | |
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Retired Tank
Vulturedoodle
Sergeant
791 Posts
| | 06/03/2005 11:47 AM |
| That's curious. I've never seen the entry in the DMG; have always simply used the PHB. Just checked, and there's no errata on this for the DMG.
IIRC, the Ranger got a d10 in v3.0. You're sure you weren't looking in the 3.0 DMG? Don't have the book with me...what is the general heading in the DMG for page 198?
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Vaughan: You seem like a thinker. You seem to always be deep in thought. So what are you thinking right now?
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ArchMage7
Sergeant
358 Posts
CA, USA
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Kiirnodel
Sergeant
484 Posts
| | 06/03/2005 2:29 PM |
| | That's a typo, the ranger gets a d8, good catch though. [:)] | |
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The Great
Choco Monster
Ghendar
Warlord
11102 Posts
In the constellation of Cygnus, or Central Connecticut
| | 06/03/2005 3:01 PM |
| Don't see why they even changed it from d10 to d8? Seems unecessary to me. A ranger is a warrior. Why should they get less hp than a fighter or paladin?
Yes, I know that a barbarian gets d12. Don't know why that is either? | |
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lurch_E_bean
Underboss
1058 Posts
| | 06/03/2005 3:27 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Ghendar
Don't see why they even changed it from d10 to d8? Seems unecessary to me. A ranger is a warrior. Why should they get less hp than a fighter or paladin?
Yes, I know that a barbarian gets d12. Don't know why that is either?
Looking at the difference between the 3.0 and 3.5 Ranger, I think dropping from a d10 to d8 is well worth the truckload of class abilities the Ranger now has and the big boost to the favored enemy mechanic (it's actually worth choosing undead/constructs/anything immune to crits as a favored enemy now). | |
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Darastrix Maekrix
dariustad
Warlord
6322 Posts
| | 06/03/2005 4:31 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Kiirnodel
That's a typo, the ranger gets a d8, good catch though. [:)]
A typo? Or a bad copy/paste from the 3.0 book? [:P] | |
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The Great
Choco Monster
Ghendar
Warlord
11102 Posts
In the constellation of Cygnus, or Central Connecticut
| | 06/03/2005 4:48 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by lurch_E_bean
quote:
Originally posted by Ghendar
Don't see why they even changed it from d10 to d8? Seems unecessary to me. A ranger is a warrior. Why should they get less hp than a fighter or paladin?
Yes, I know that a barbarian gets d12. Don't know why that is either?
Looking at the difference between the 3.0 and 3.5 Ranger, I think dropping from a d10 to d8 is well worth the truckload of class abilities the Ranger now has and the big boost to the favored enemy mechanic (it's actually worth choosing undead/constructs/anything immune to crits as a favored enemy now).
Perhaps, but getting two extra HP/level isn't unbalancing. Especially when you consider the Ranger's restriction to light armor and thus lower armor class. | |
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Zardnaar
Sergeant
522 Posts
| | 06/03/2005 5:03 PM |
| | On average its only 1/hp level. Its supposed to turn rangers into skirmishers rather than front line fighters. | |
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Retired Tank
Vulturedoodle
Sergeant
791 Posts
| | 06/03/2005 5:17 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Ghendar
Perhaps, but getting two extra HP/level isn't unbalancing. Especially when you consider the Ranger's restriction to light armor and thus lower armor class.
I think it's also to balance the extra skill points per level, which increased in 3.5.
--Steve F. | |
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Darastrix Maekrix
dariustad
Warlord
6322 Posts
| | 06/03/2005 5:19 PM |
| | I agree. Rangers are skill monkeys compared to fighters. Well worth the smaller Hit die to me. | |
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ArchMage7
Sergeant
358 Posts
CA, USA
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The Great
Choco Monster
Ghendar
Warlord
11102 Posts
In the constellation of Cygnus, or Central Connecticut
| | 06/03/2005 6:46 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by dariustad
I agree. Rangers are skill monkeys compared to fighters. Well worth the smaller Hit die to me.
Then how come they still get the same base attack bonus progression as fighters and paladins and barbarians?
I hear what all you guys are saying, I just don't agree with WoTC's decision to go from d10 to d8 that's all. | |
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Bolg
Sneak
154 Posts
| | 06/03/2005 8:41 PM |
| It is more an issue of balance. Rangers get 6+int skill points,an animal companion, spells, choice of combat style, very nice stealth abilities, tracking, evasion, two good saves and more. Worth an average of 1 hp a level.
Plus I think it is suppose to make the fighter look a bit more inviting also. Just a guess though.
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Knight of Argenis
Corim Danex
Warlord
6593 Posts
West Valley City, Utah
| | 06/04/2005 1:14 AM |
| | The ranger is more like a cross between a rogue and a fighter now, with some druid flavor. Though it is a decrease for the ranger, I think that the 3.5 ranger is still better than the 3.0 ranger. | |
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tdaraa
Sneak
163 Posts
| | 06/04/2005 5:42 AM |
| | I know balance issues prevail, but I still can't help but look back fondly on the 1e days when a ranger could wear plate mail and start at level one with 24 hp if you were moderately lucky. The hate list was one huge pile of critters also, and you added your level as a damage bonus to all critters on that list, ahhh in those days rangers were nearly as nasty as Bards < grin > | |
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The Great
Choco Monster
Ghendar
Warlord
11102 Posts
In the constellation of Cygnus, or Central Connecticut
| | 06/04/2005 7:13 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by tdaraa
I know balance issues prevail, but I still can't help but look back fondly on the 1e days when a ranger could wear plate mail and start at level one with 24 hp if you were moderately lucky. The hate list was one huge pile of critters also, and you added your level as a damage bonus to all critters on that list, ahhh in those days rangers were nearly as nasty as Bards < grin >
Yeah, 1st Ed Rangers were sick! They are still my favorite 1st Ed class. | |
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Knight of Argenis
Corim Danex
Warlord
6593 Posts
West Valley City, Utah
| | 06/04/2005 11:59 AM |
| | How did you have a level one ranger with 24 hit points? | |
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Wrackspawn
ChristopherGroves
Warlord
6093 Posts
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The Great
Choco Monster
Ghendar
Warlord
11102 Posts
In the constellation of Cygnus, or Central Connecticut
| | 06/04/2005 1:16 PM |
| Plus at 8th level they got druid spell access (up to 3rd lvl spells at ranger level 16) and access to Magic-user spells at 9th level (up to 2nd lvl spells at ranger level 13)
I always wanted to do a dual class Ranger/Magic user, but never got the chance.
| |
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I actually love to be swallowed. - Posted By gss_000 on 09/04/2007 2:32 PM
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Knight of Argenis
Corim Danex
Warlord
6593 Posts
West Valley City, Utah
| | 06/04/2005 1:43 PM |
| | Wow, I thought the 24 hp was a typo, but I can see it now that you have explained it. That was a load of hp. | |
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tdaraa
Sneak
163 Posts
| | 06/04/2005 1:45 PM |
| A truly broke method to use was to Level a ranger to 9, switch to wizard using the human with 2 classes option, and Voila' once the Wizard level hit 10 you had a wizard that could use full armor while casting. The required stats were insane, but then again so was the character concept....
and yes 2 d8 at level one plus 1 +4 con bonus per die to get 24 hp at level one....
the ranger really was broke, but I do miss him < grin >
(btw the attribute minimum requirements to qualify for the ranger/wizard swap were as follows: STR 15, WIS 15, CON 15, INT 17) Dex (oddly enuff) and Cha were the throw away stats in this mix) | |
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Knight of Argenis
Corim Danex
Warlord
6593 Posts
West Valley City, Utah
| | 06/04/2005 7:46 PM |
| | It was pointed out to me by JoLT that with the 2d8 HD for rangers, there was a certain level at which they only gained 2 hp per level. With 3.X D&D, characters continue getting their regular HD indefiniately. However, with older versions, there was a point at which characters stopped getting HD when going up a level. | |
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Korhal_IV
Sergeant
852 Posts
| | 06/04/2005 7:48 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Corim Danex
The ranger is more like a cross between a rogue and a fighter now, with some druid flavor. Though it is a decrease for the ranger, I think that the 3.5 ranger is still better than the 3.0 ranger.
Check the 3.0 ranger's spell list and compare to the 3.5 ranger's spell list: with the loss/nerf of Polymorph Self, the 3.5 ranger is much weaker at very high levels than the 3.0 ranger. I would also argue that it was unnecessary to push back the ranger's free Two-Weapon-Fighting feat, and, in fact, screws over 1st level ranger characters who want to start out dual-wielding.
The argument for pushing it back, btw, was that too many people were cherry-picking a level of ranger for the free feat, which then leads to the question of why they didn't nerf fighter, wizard, and rogue for their 1st level imbalances. Now that rangers don't get their 1st level feat, I've seen a lot fewer rangers in play, because if you have a TWF-ing concept in mind, you don't want to have to wait through 13 fights before you can use it. | |
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Wrackspawn
ChristopherGroves
Warlord
6093 Posts
| | 06/04/2005 9:33 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Corim Danex
It was pointed out to me by JoLT that with the 2d8 HD for rangers, there was a certain level at which they only gained 2 hp per level. With 3.X D&D, characters continue getting their regular HD indefiniately. However, with older versions, there was a point at which characters stopped getting HD when going up a level.
Everything stopped getting actual hit dice in 1st edition (eventually). Different classes stopped at different points, etc. The levels were also not balanced / equivalent. A level 10 thief had alot less XP than a level 10 Paladin ... essentially they used the XP charts to balance class power. Thieves were, at the time, not equal on a level-by-level basis. There were also odd little gaps where the XP required for a level accelerated or slowed progression quickly. Thief was pretty flat but the XP requirements for some of the other classes did some odd things ... | |
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nyjastul69
Commander
2710 Posts
Rhode Island
| | 06/05/2005 10:45 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by ChristopherGroves:
There were also odd little gaps where the XP required for a level accelerated or slowed progression quickly. Thief was pretty flat but the XP requirements for some of the other classes did some odd things
The 1st ed. Magic-user is a good example of this. | |
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Testament
Underboss
1397 Posts
| | 06/05/2005 9:50 PM |
| Korhal, the problem was that cherry picking Ranger gave you so damn much, and it didn't deviate much at all from your normal progression. It was a no-brainer, 4+int skill points, free feats, the ability to activate wands of make better (Cure light), and a d10 hit dice?
Why wouldn't you take it!? | |
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Knight of the
Round Table
Thenameless
Warlord
8879 Posts
The Fortress of Solitude
| | 06/06/2005 12:17 AM |
| | To answer an earlier question, I think the Barbarian class needs a d12 in order to achieve balance. All this guy can do is trade swings, and generally, they are going to get hit by a Ftr, Pal, or Rgr of equivalent level every time. | |
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Korhal_IV
Sergeant
852 Posts
| | 06/07/2005 12:07 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Testament
Korhal, the problem was that cherry picking Ranger gave you so damn much, and it didn't deviate much at all from your normal progression. It was a no-brainer, 4+int skill points, free feats, the ability to activate wands of make better (Cure light), and a d10 hit dice?
Why wouldn't you take it!?
If you were not interested in two-weapon-fighting, preferred heavy armor, and already had full BAB/HD, then you didn't really care. Cure Light is nice, but sometimes you want that extra rage or (non-TWF) feat at this level, you know?
Also, the skills, while very useful, sometimes conflicted with armor use - if you're in full plate, why plug four ranks into Hide? You're still at a horrible negative. | |
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Testament
Underboss
1397 Posts
| | 06/07/2005 1:41 AM |
| | Did you lose anything though? That's the key part there. Lets face it, from a powergaming standpoint, fighter only had 4 levels in 3.0. | |
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megamadrat
Sneak
126 Posts
| | 06/07/2005 12:30 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Testament
Did you lose anything though? That's the key part there. Lets face it, from a powergaming standpoint, fighter only had 4 levels in 3.0.
True, but this did not really change in 3.5 either, you are either going to take 4 levels of fighter and whatever you need to get into the prestige class of your dreams or go fighter all the way just so you can have almost double the feats of virtually every other class at your level. | |
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Testament
Underboss
1397 Posts
| | 06/07/2005 7:50 PM |
| Yeah Ka, sorry, Megamadrat, but the issue here is the 3.0 ranger. 1 level represents a pretty minor diversion as opposed to 4, which is pretty big. Splashing fighter was only worth it to pick up combat feats to qualify for a PrC, whereas you gained a whole swag from cherry-picking ranger, and you gave up ZERO. At least now you can't cherry pick 1 level for TWF, and you get lumped with a smaller HD.
In 3.0 anyway, there was never a reason to go past fighter 4, there was nothing but feats, and most trees could be completed by 4th. At least in 3.5 they've got the tactical feats and combat styles, which are brutally effective, and have so many feat prerequisites that only a fighter can really reach them. | |
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Thoth, Gatherer of Knowledge
MerricB
Underboss
2350 Posts
Australia
| | 06/07/2005 8:45 PM |
| In 3.5e, the fighter has Improved Weapon Focus (prereq Ftr8) and Improved Weapon Specialisation (prereq Ftr12).
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Thoth, Gatherer of Knowledge
MerricB
Underboss
2350 Posts
Australia
| | 06/07/2005 8:48 PM |
| The problem with the 3e ranger was mainly in Rogue/Ranger 1 builds: the Ranger had nothing at higher levels at all, and its abilities all worked very well with the Rogue (esp. twf).
Cheers! | |
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Testament
Underboss
1397 Posts
| | 06/07/2005 9:54 PM |
| Bingo. Although Improved Focus and Specialisation are pretty weak for how far along you are when you get them, they are at least represent SOME incentive to go Fighter for a while. And Ranger/Rogue builds, for TWF Sneak Attack of DOOM were way too easy to create.
Come to think of it, they still are. Just takes an extra level now. | |
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MerricB
Underboss
2350 Posts
Australia
| | 06/07/2005 10:13 PM |
| Two levels of ranger are a quite significant investment; it does delay the gaining of the top rogue abilities by 2 levels, and that's not so good.
Cheers! | |
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Nacre
Sneak
113 Posts
| | 06/08/2005 8:39 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Ghendar
Then how come they still get the same base attack bonus progression as fighters and paladins and barbarians?
Because they need it to be good archers. | |
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Ironballz
Sneak
68 Posts
| | 06/12/2005 10:31 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by nyjastul69
quote:
Originally posted by ChristopherGroves:
There were also odd little gaps where the XP required for a level accelerated or slowed progression quickly. Thief was pretty flat but the XP requirements for some of the other classes did some odd things
The 1st ed. Magic-user is a good example of this.
Druid (with contiunation in Unearthed Arcana) is the best example of this. You'd make 9th level by the time everyone else was 7th, then you'd even out with them (make a level when they did). At 15+ it took a druid 500,000 xp per level to advance, while a wizard needed 375,000 (fighters and thieves were the lowest costing to advance if memory serves). Everyone would quickly catch back up to you, but then again, you were one of the only beings capable of hopping the planes at will (17th level and up you could travel to an elemental plane at will, you gained access to a new plane every level, you also got the ability to survive on that plane). | |
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