Iksander
Underboss
1010 Posts
    
 | | 06/21/2005 3:15 AM |
| | recovered topic 5018 | |
Bite me. | |
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Iksander
Underboss
1010 Posts
| | 06/21/2005 3:15 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Wayne
No, I'm afraid you don't rolls '1's on saves half the time ... in fact, you don't even roll '1's on saves 20 percent of the time, and if you're willing to let me track your next 50 saving throws, I'll bet you $100,000 against your $25,000 you won't roll 20 percent '1's. Have you rolled '1's on half your saves in the past? Well, maybe, but I doubt it. But that doesn't matter ... even if you were unlucky in the past, you're not unlucky now.
All of the above assumes perfect manufacturing processes. It also assumes perfect rolling surfaces, no fluctuations in local gravity or air density or the magnetic field or the wind or temperature or any other number of factors that could influence the roll of a die.
Hell, it even assumes there is no such thing as psychic phenomena, which although I'd probably agree doesn't exist, at the very least is making a broad assumption without any realistic expectation of probable inputs into the variables.
But what would I know? I have a die that rolls lots of 20's when I DM and lots of 1's when I play... | |
Bite me. | |
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Knight of Argenis
Corim Danex
Warlord
6621 Posts
West Valley City, Utah
| | 06/21/2005 3:15 AM |
| I feel the same way about people having fixations with certain dice. Unless the dice is a cheater dice, the percentage of times that the dice has rolled high or low is coincidence.
I scratch my head every time I hear someone say, "Oh, this is the killer dice that gets 20's when I need them badly," or something similar.
Now that I have brought that up, I wonder how many people will post stories of lucky dice. The funny thing about "lucky" dice stories is that they may reflect reasonably accurately what has happened over a certain space of time in the past; however, no amount of past lucky dice stories ever gives any indication of what the next roll or series of rolls are going to be. | |
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Wayne
Underboss
1371 Posts
| | 06/21/2005 3:31 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Iksander
All of the above assumes perfect manufacturing processes. It also assumes perfect rolling surfaces, no fluctuations in local gravity or air density or the magnetic field or the wind or temperature or any other number of factors that could influence the roll of a die.
Actually, no it doesn't. Unless a die is so loaded that it would badly flub a chi-square check, none of the things you mention above will have more than a negligible impact ... maybe affecting one percent of rolls.
And most of the things you mention are other examples of not understanding probability. The surface you're rolling on, and so forth, doesn't matter. Can the surface (or other environmental facotrs) affect the number that shows up on any given roll? Of course it can ... but it can't make one number show up more often than any other number. Put another way, if an uneven surface causes a dice to jump funny and come up a '20,' the surface could have just as easily caused a funny jump that results in a '1.' Or a funny jump that resulted in a '12.' Or a funny jump that resulted in ... whatever. | |
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Kiirnodel
Sergeant
484 Posts
| | 06/21/2005 5:26 AM |
| I don't believe in that lucky thing and perfectly agree with you, but this one die is out to spite me.
I say it's a normal die and roll it in front of people (it averages a 7 or 8 during that... I've done the math) BUT... while I'm DMing... I crit with it like crazy, I HATE it, because it ruins my theory (the first attack of one campaign started as a 20....20....20....an auto-kill...which I ignored and just made a crit) My players threw it on the street once... I found it while mowing, I also found it at the end of the street when they flushed it down the toilet...
I think its posessed. | |
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Iksander
Underboss
1010 Posts
| | 06/21/2005 5:39 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Wayne
And most of the things you mention are other examples of not understanding probability.
And you understand the universe and everything in it, do you?
Since you must be God, can you please stop making it rain here for at least another week so that I can get proper riding boots and I don't have to put up with soaking wet shoes at work all the time? | |
Bite me. | |
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Testament
Underboss
1397 Posts
| | 06/21/2005 6:33 AM |
| I agree Wayne, its ultimately a load of bollocks that certain dice are cursed, or that someone can't make a save.
Thing is that we don't think over the life of the dice. People think in terms of specific sessions, and sometimes you do get days where dice just frelling HATE you. I know, I've had one, and one of my friends has had about a week of that so far.[)] Freaky things happen in the world of fortune, and people like to form superstitions about dice. Heck, I think most GMs will have one that no matter what happens, they just know it WILL kill PCs. I've got one, and another friend has his golf-ball sized "Big Red", which currently holds the record for longest chain of 20s (five in a row! Too bad he was rolling a Dolgrim's full attack routine against us at the time).
You can't predict what will happen, but man, the psychological effect on players when they see dice like Big Red come out is worth it. | |
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Frederyck
Sneak
133 Posts
Uppsala, Sweden
| | 06/21/2005 6:56 AM |
| Being the maths nerd that I am, I actually tested a number of my dice a couple of years ago and found (after rolling them enough times to minimize the standard deviation) that quite a few of them were really bad as random number generators. Over 25% of the dice showed statistical anomalies that far outstripped the expected value (or went below it, for that matter). One of them, an eight sided die, averaged somewhere around 6.2 after over 3000 rolls. I can't remember the deviation, but the result was in the 95% certainty of not being a fluke. The specific die was one of those included in the D&D Expert Set from the early 80s, by the way!
So to me, it doesn't seem that implausible that players have dice that actually rolls 1s or 13s etc more often than other results. However, that doesn't imply that the players, or DMs understand the nature of the statistical flukes.
And yes, I am a total nerd for doing such an experiment. [:D] | |
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Hero of the Force
Siddartha of Suburbia
Underboss
2277 Posts
| | 06/21/2005 9:34 AM |
| I have to agree with Wayne, I don't believe in Luck per se, it's just a word for describing a series of coincidences. But I do believe in sticking to certain dice. Not because they're lucky, and not due to superstition (well, maybe a little). I just like consistency.
Besides, a lot of the local players here seem to take an exception to my blue d20. I have used it for all but four of my DDM games ever. It doesn't roll fabulously or anything. I think people just like to blame the die when I win, instead of me. Of course they usually blame me when I lose. | |
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Diomedes
Commander
3173 Posts
| | 06/21/2005 9:49 AM |
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I know that this is going to seem odd coming from the stat heavy econ guy that I am, but I too have sat there with a pad of paper and demanded that certain members of my gaming group roll for about an hour while I recorded results (actually, it was an excel spread sheet, not a pad of paper, but I digress). The odd thing is, one of them /squarely/ beat out my hypothesis testing that the sample mean for their d6 rolls was 3.5 (I think his mean was 4.8 with close to 400 rolls).
Was his die funny? I don't know, I don't know how to test it (and I didn't bother sitting down and rolling it myself for an hour). Could he naturally roll high as he claimed? I still don't think so, but he made a convincing argument for it. I've seen enough odd things in my life that now if someone claims to have a "lucky" die I usually just let it fly.
-Diomedes
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FeranEldritchKnight
Sergeant
385 Posts
Kansas City, MO USA
| | 06/21/2005 10:01 AM |
| Gamers, although above average in intelligence, tend to be superstitious. None of my gaming group (myself included) will allow "tampering" of our dice. This means no one but the owner of the dice are allowed to touch them, and touching a die about to be used for the night means the die goes back into the dicebag and shook, or some other rediculous ritual. And on more than one occasion, I have been caught telling the DMs dice to miss or otherwise calling out some jinx.
But to be fair, DDM tounaments have outlawed the use of the D20 that came with the Harbinger starter packs because the numbers are too tightly grouped. (all low on one side, all high on the opposite) Would a large company like WotC outlaw a die they made unless there was a major statistical anomoly? ALthough it shouldn't be that way, dice are imperfect random number generators. If you had a computer program that "rolled a 1 20% of the time" you would be crazy or extremely unlucky for that period of time, but the computer should average correctly over time because it is a better random number generator. | |
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Wrackspawn
ChristopherGroves
Warlord
6093 Posts
| | 06/21/2005 10:04 AM |
| The lack of basic statistical and probability analysis (opportunity cost? what's that?) on the part of skirmishers keeps me placing well in tournaments. And, it has been my experience, that whereas I believe a large number of my friends are well above average intelligence I've had numerous discussious about the odds of certain things occurring.
It doesn't matter if you've not rolled a 6 all night on that d6, and maybe you've rolled it a hundred times. When you pick up that die again and decide to roll it your chances of getting a 6 are pretty much 1 in 6. You're not owed anything at that point in time and there is no carry-over odds at that point. It is a new event and as such it's 1 in 6.
Smart people. A few years ago an entire gaming night devolved into this discussion of odds and probability. Of the 8 folks in the room it broke down to 2 versus 6 on "belief" as far as how probability and odds occur. All of them fairly intelligent folks.
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warty_nosed_goblin
Underboss
1384 Posts
| | 06/21/2005 10:35 AM |
| Yeah, it does seem like numbers should out, but my friend has a dice that consistantly rolls horribly, not all the time, just more then it should. We have completely stopped using this dice, and if anyone is found to be using it they immeadiatly switch.
Of course it is a Harbinger dice... | |
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kyrin
Commander
3152 Posts
| | 06/21/2005 10:44 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Iksander
quote:
Originally posted by Wayne
And most of the things you mention are other examples of not understanding probability.
And you understand the universe and everything in it, do you?
Since you must be God, can you please stop making it rain here for at least another week so that I can get proper riding boots and I don't have to put up with soaking wet shoes at work all the time?
Yeah, GodWayne, you can just send some of that rain over here if you don't mind. It's stinking hot!
Wow, I traded minis with God...
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galneweinhaw
Commander
2646 Posts
| | 06/21/2005 12:10 PM |
| Having a physics background, and therefore knowing how god works [)]...I have to agree with wayne.
I do have a set of 6-sided dice that roll lots of sixes.... but they are about 5mm a side (sort of) and HARDLY cubes... must've been hand-made buy a guy with Parkinson's. | |
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Iksander
Underboss
1010 Posts
| | 06/21/2005 5:20 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by galneweinhaw
Having a physics background, and therefore knowing how god works [)]...I have to agree with wayne.
This is the crux of what annoyed me about Wayne's post.
For one thing, probability is just that: statistics of randomness show that it is probable to have an even distribution of numbers rolled.
It's not: this is how the universe works, 'cause we said so, and that's that, no, no, don't argue, we're right and we know it!
And the REALLY annoying thing was that it is JUST as probable for someone to roll a succession of 1's or 20's as it is for them to roll any number in-between, which Wayne doesn't seem to either allow or account for.
Plus, who are we to say that we know everything about probability? For all he, I, or Mr. Physics over there knows, the biggest factor in determining the outcome of a rolled die could be how often you pick your nose on a Friday, at 2pm, and the corresponding position of the Moon in relation to Saturn. It's not PROBABLE, but it's POSSIBLE. | |
Bite me. | |
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Fearfrost
Sergeant
518 Posts
| | 06/21/2005 5:43 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Frederyck
Being the maths nerd that I am, I actually tested a number of my dice a couple of years ago and found (after rolling them enough times to minimize the standard deviation) that quite a few of them were really bad as random number generators. Over 25% of the dice showed statistical anomalies that far outstripped the expected value (or went below it, for that matter). One of them, an eight sided die, averaged somewhere around 6.2 after over 3000 rolls. I can't remember the deviation, but the result was in the 95% certainty of not being a fluke. The specific die was one of those included in the D&D Expert Set from the early 80s, by the way!
So to me, it doesn't seem that implausible that players have dice that actually rolls 1s or 13s etc more often than other results. However, that doesn't imply that the players, or DMs understand the nature of the statistical flukes.
And yes, I am a total nerd for doing such an experiment. [:D]
No Sir you are not a nerd you are our KING[:p] | |
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B
Underboss
1189 Posts
| | 06/21/2005 5:57 PM |
| | Umm...I totally believe in luck...well...bad luck at least. I rolled (with witnesses) 23 1's in one DDM match. Statistically I don't think I should have rolled another 1 for about a month, but I still rolled 1's in all the other rounds. | |
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galneweinhaw
Commander
2646 Posts
| | 06/21/2005 6:28 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Iksander
And the REALLY annoying thing was that it is JUST as probable for someone to roll a succession of 1's or 20's as it is for them to roll any number in-between, which Wayne doesn't seem to either allow or account for....
Not sure what rolling a succession of 15's have to do with wayne's argument, ya it's just as improbable.... so what? the only reason successions of 1's and 20's are a big deal are because they are noticed.... whoop-dee-doo I just rolled 3 11's in a row, better go post on maxminis and tell about my bad luck...
quote:
Originally posted by Iksander
It's not PROBABLE, but it's POSSIBLE.
Isn't that the whole point?
btw, the probability of rolling 3 successive 20's in a row (or 1's, or 11's, or 15's) is about .01% or 1 in 10,000 (as is the probability of rolling 4, 11, 17).
Mr. Physics [:D]
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galneweinhaw
Commander
2646 Posts
| | 06/21/2005 6:30 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Iksander
Plus, who are we to say that we know everything about probability? For all he, I, or Mr. Physics over there knows, the biggest factor in determining the outcome of a rolled die could be how often you pick your nose on a Friday, at 2pm, and the corresponding position of the Moon in relation to Saturn. It's not PROBABLE, but it's POSSIBLE.
The cool thing is... it doesn't matter what the biggest factor is, the results will still give you the same probability of rolling 20 or any other number. As long as the dice isn't rigged of course. | |
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galneweinhaw
Commander
2646 Posts
| | 06/21/2005 6:32 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by B
Umm...I totally believe in luck...well...bad luck at least. I rolled (with witnesses) 23 1's in one DDM match. Statistically I don't think I should have rolled another 1 for about a month, but I still rolled 1's in all the other rounds.
heh.. there's that misunderstanding again ;)
23 1's in a single ddm match makes no diff to your rolls for the rest of the month. | |
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B
Underboss
1189 Posts
| | 06/21/2005 6:38 PM |
| | Really? So if I roll 23 1's there is an equal statistical chance that I will roll another 1? Interesting. I thought that I should only roll them 5% of the time. I also thought that it becomes more and more statistically improbable that the same number keeps repeating? | |
Do not go gentle into that good night,
Old age should burn and rave at close of day;
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.--Dylan Thomas
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Fry
Underboss
1724 Posts
| | 06/21/2005 7:11 PM |
| | I had two or three games during the qualifiers where the average on the dice came up far below 10.5. When my opponent and I both notice that I just rolled three consecutive 1's, and that there have been several previous 1's, and I've rolled the dice far less than 100 times during the match...of course, I've also had games where it actually matters whether the Copper Samurai keeps giving you extra attacks if you keep rolling 20's (it does, BTW). I figure over the course of my life I probably break pretty close to even. | |
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Wayne
Underboss
1371 Posts
| | 06/21/2005 7:14 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by B
Really? So if I roll 23 1's there is an equal statistical chance that I will roll another 1? Interesting. I thought that I should only roll them 5% of the time. I also thought that it becomes more and more statistically improbable that the same number keeps repeating?
This is probably the most common misunderstanding with regard to probability. (Hey, at least you're not down in Australia, picking your nose desperately in hopes of a 20.)
The probability of rolling a '1' (or any other pre-designated number from '1' to '20') on an unbiased d20 is always 5%. (The chance is 1 in 20. The odds are 19 to 1 against. All ways of saying the same thing.) However, the probability of rolling two '1's in a row (or any other predesignated number) is 0.25%: 1/20 multiplied by 1/20.
The difference is the "pre-designated" part.Before you roll, the chance of rolling two '1's consecutively is 1 in 400. After you've already rolled a '1,' however, your chance of rolling another '1' is, and this shouldn't be a shock, 1 in 20.
Probability doesn't state that each possible result of a d20 roll will come up 5% of the time, BTW. (If that were true, then the results, by definition, wouldn't be random, right?) Probability (the law of large numbers) just says that as the sample size grows larger (more and more rolls observed), each result will get closer and closer 5% of the total. | |
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Custom Title
WakeXX
Warlord
10131 Posts
Edinboro PA
| | 06/21/2005 7:40 PM |
| | so...what is the statistical probability of rolling 6 3's on d20 in a row![B)] | | | |
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B
Underboss
1189 Posts
| | 06/21/2005 7:46 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Wayne
quote:
Originally posted by B
Really? So if I roll 23 1's there is an equal statistical chance that I will roll another 1? Interesting. I thought that I should only roll them 5% of the time. I also thought that it becomes more and more statistically improbable that the same number keeps repeating?
This is probably the most common misunderstanding with regard to probability. (Hey, at least you're not down in Australia, picking your nose desperately in hopes of a 20.)
The probability of rolling a '1' (or any other pre-designated number from '1' to '20') on an unbiased d20 is always 5%. (The chance is 1 in 20. The odds are 19 to 1 against. All ways of saying the same thing.) However, the probability of rolling two '1's in a row (or any other predesignated number) is 0.25%: 1/20 multiplied by 1/20.
The difference is the "pre-designated" part.Before you roll, the chance of rolling two '1's consecutively is 1 in 400. After you've already rolled a '1,' however, your chance of rolling another '1' is, and this shouldn't be a shock, 1 in 20.
Probability doesn't state that each possible result of a d20 roll will come up 5% of the time, BTW. (If that were true, then the results, by definition, wouldn't be random, right?) Probability (the law of large numbers) just says that as the sample size grows larger (more and more rolls observed), each result will get closer and closer 5% of the total.
Soooo....from now on I should yell out "Double Ones!!" every time I roll the old D20. That way the numbers are predesignated and it lowers the chance that I will roll it [:D] Done! | |
Do not go gentle into that good night,
Old age should burn and rave at close of day;
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.--Dylan Thomas
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Wayne
Underboss
1371 Posts
| | 06/21/2005 8:02 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by WakeXX
so...what is the statistical probability of rolling 6 3's on d20 in a row![B)]
After you've done it? 100%.
Before you've done it, on the next six rolls? About 1 in 64,000,000 or .0000015625 percent. |
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Jeff "Wayne Laredo" Wilder | Email | Have/Want List | Trade Policies | Are You an Ethical Trader?
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Wayne
Underboss
1371 Posts
| | 06/21/2005 8:06 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by BSoooo....from now on I should yell out "Double Ones!!" every time I roll the old D20. That way the numbers are predesignated and it lowers the chance that I will roll it [:D] Done!
Well, it won't lower the chances -- which will be 1 in 400, as always -- but it will help to shake you out of the selective perception that makes you think double-'1's are more common than they are. (Of course, chances are you'll get tired of yelling prior to every d20 roll, after the 50th or 100th or 200th time that double-'1's don't appear.) | |
Jeff "Wayne Laredo" Wilder | Email | Have/Want List | Trade Policies | Are You an Ethical Trader?
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B
Underboss
1189 Posts
| | 06/21/2005 8:13 PM |
| | Naw, I'll just think of that as proof that it works [:D]just like the bear repelling rock that I have [:D] | |
Do not go gentle into that good night,
Old age should burn and rave at close of day;
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.--Dylan Thomas
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Wayne
Underboss
1371 Posts
| | 06/21/2005 8:28 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by FeranEldritchKnight
But to be fair, DDM tounaments have outlawed the use of the D20 that came with the Harbinger starter packs because the numbers are too tightly grouped. (all low on one side, all high on the opposite) Would a large company like WotC outlaw a die they made unless there was a major statistical anomoly?
There's a difference between a true statistically-verified bias, and a die manufactured in a certain way so as to allow easier mechanical manipulation. The latter is why WotC banned the d20s you described. While it's not possible to learn how to achieve a certain roll on a d20, it is definitely possible to learn how to significantly increase the frequency that the side with high numbers end up on top. (Whether it's possible to do this and make a apparently-fair roll I dunno, but I doubt it. I've watched people roll "high clumped" d20s, and it's very obvious they're manipulating the roll, however they try to hide it.)
Both things are possible with a d6, BTW. That's the reason casinos force you to bounce the dice off the far wall at the craps table ... it takes it back to being random, even for the skilled mechanics. | |
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Testament
Underboss
1397 Posts
| | 06/21/2005 10:05 PM |
| | So it IS possible to throw dice in such a way that a certain result will come up? Cool, I wasn't sure whether that was just a myth or not. | |
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Knight of Argenis
Corim Danex
Warlord
6621 Posts
West Valley City, Utah
| | 06/21/2005 10:25 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Testament
So it IS possible to throw dice in such a way that a certain result will come up? Cool, I wasn't sure whether that was just a myth or not.
It's more accurate to say that it's possible to throw dice in a way that a certain section of the dice comes up more often (or rather, any one side on that section).
You can take the old harbinger dice that was banned, look at which side has more larger numbers, and spin the dice so that the desired side is opposite the spinning "corner". The odds are reasonably high that one of the sides that was on the upper half of the dice will come up.
That's part of why the skirmish rules actually outlawed spinning dice instead of rolling them. | |
"Look to God and live." Alma 37:47
Vindicated Champ of Hippogriff (Arcadian Hippogriff) and Uncommon Horse | |
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Fearfrost
Sergeant
518 Posts
| | 06/21/2005 11:40 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Testament
So it IS possible to throw dice in such a way that a certain result will come up? Cool, I wasn't sure whether that was just a myth or not.
Well according to a recient History channel show it is done by some craps players. However they say it takes a very long time to get the throw right to reduce the spin of the dice. I doubt that if someone actually rolled a D20 they would be able to duplicate the technique due to the D20's nearly round shape. But who knows with practice maybe.
IMO good luck is just probability going your way [:)]
bad luck is when I roll dice [:D] | |
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Frederyck
Sneak
133 Posts
Uppsala, Sweden
| | 06/22/2005 3:40 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Fearfrost
No Sir you are not a nerd you are our KING[:p]
Bow in my Presence!
[:o)] | |
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glauron
Underboss
1379 Posts
Sydney, Australia
| | 06/22/2005 4:06 AM |
| I was thinking about something clever to say about probablility, but then my brain got caught up with paradox and now I have a headache.
I suppose if we average less than 50% of the face value of the die in a lifetime of dice rolling, we go to hell, and if we average more than 50% of the face value of the die in a lifetime of dice rolling we go to heaven.
Now assuming we spend all our life rolling dice, what is the probability that we will go to heaven?
Who will be first to provide the statistically correct answer to this question?
Cheers [:0] | |
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Lead Moderator
LCS
Underboss
1867 Posts
| | 06/22/2005 4:39 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by glauron
Now assuming we spend all our life rolling dice, what is the probability that we will go to heaven?
Well since the statistical average of the result of rolling a die is 0.5 higher than half the face value of the die, everyone should go to heaven (assuming their relegion of choice doesn't frown upon the rolling of dice).
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Iksander
Underboss
1010 Posts
| | 06/22/2005 5:06 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by glauron
Now assuming we spend all our life rolling dice, what is the probability that we will go to heaven?
I don't believe in dice. DIE HEATHEN! DIE! | |
Bite me. | |
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Frederyck
Sneak
133 Posts
Uppsala, Sweden
| | 06/22/2005 8:19 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by glauron
Now assuming we spend all our life rolling dice, what is the probability that we will go to heaven?
I am with Iksander on this. People rolling dice all their lives all go to hell.
Oh dear... | |
If voting could really change things, it would be illegal. | |
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DDM Australian Champion 2005
psistef
Underboss
1572 Posts
| | 06/22/2005 9:20 AM |
| Now THIS is why I enjoy DDM ... Maths!
That, by the way, was sarcasm. | |
Champion of the Prestige Class where mages focus on telekenesis and start throwing people into the ceiling and uber stuff like that.
Desirer of a Commander Effect in CG that grants Sidestep to followers with a ranged attack. | |
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Captain Harlock
Sergeant
450 Posts
| | 06/22/2005 10:44 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Fearfrost
quote:
Originally posted by Testament
So it IS possible to throw dice in such a way that a certain result will come up? Cool, I wasn't sure whether that was just a myth or not.
Well according to a recient History channel show it is done by some craps players. However they say it takes a very long time to get the throw right to reduce the spin of the dice. I doubt that if someone actually rolled a D20 they would be able to duplicate the technique due to the D20's nearly round shape. But who knows with practice maybe.
Oh, you do not remember the original dice that TSR used to provide with their games. They came already rounded. (Not to mention with no differentiation between the 1-10 and 11-20.)
Dan Cooper | |
Dan Cooper
For there is surely nothing so beautiful than the sight of a lone man facing single-handedly half a ton of angry pot roast.
You will all go directly to your respective vahallas, Go directly, do not pass go do not collect two hundred dollars
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