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megamadrat
Sneak
126 Posts
    
 | | 08/07/2005 6:12 AM |
| I personally would allow the special material to stack as a post-multiplier modifier, there are other things out there that actually do similar things as this. A good example is one of the weapon master's(can't rememeber exactly which class but it was something like that one) class ability which adds +2 to the threat rating after multiplication.
As to a wizard being far superior to a fighter, what color is the sky over there where a 20th level fighter cares that little about his damage that he is only doing "18 to 28 a hit" or "10-20 a hit" at that kind of level a fighter without magic whatsoever should be able to drop well in excess of 30 damage a hit BEFORE applying power attack, let alone a decked out 20th level fighter with strength at 34 before racial and other weird mods applied, a greatsword radiating enough ass-ripping power to blind a magic detector at a hundred paces and the kind of feats to put the GRRRIND in meatgrinder. At this kind of level, we are talking about a monster that should be MAULING the first thing it hits in combat for upwards of 85-100 damage in the first round and then ripping in with the same per hit every attack at everything in reach, and if something is stupid enough to back away from that, we are talking a 200+ HP cowardice bill right there, baby!
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Einstein would turn in his grave;
God does play dice, and the dice are loaded!
My left nipple is in fact a horcrux.
Do not tweak the horcrux, it belongs to the Dark Lord! | |
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Kaya Kenobi
Underboss
1304 Posts
San Jose, California
| | 08/07/2005 8:20 AM |
| I was talking about average damage:
4 attacks with greatsword:
2d6 +5 magic +10 Str (stength and a half from a 23 Strength) = 17-27
Add Power Attack for +5 (10 extra damage): 27-37 damage
Weapon Spec and Greater Weapon Spec: 31-41
But accuracy goes way down. The first two will most likely hit while the last two won't. 82 max damage on two hits to 71 max on 3 of 4 hits without PA. PA for 10, you'll probably hit the first time and miss the last 3. 37-47
But does it beat a maximized fireball for 60 damage to multiple enemies?
Most of the time as a wizard, this is how I have my spells ready:
Wand of Bull's Strength
Wand of Enlarge Person
50% of my spells are attack (Phantasmal Killer, Ray of Enfeeblement, Ice Storm, Fireball, Cloudkill, Disintigrate)
25% support (Haste, Imp Invisibility, Mage Armor, etc)
25% misc (Unseen Servant, Knock, Dimension Door, Quest, etc..)
My wizards usually have all those spells prepared and a few extras. Wizards are for blowing things up. Fighters are for slashing things to pieces. Bards are meant for support. Look at their spell list and abilities! | |
Just a simple traveler from the swamps of Dagobah otherwise known as Florida. Also known as Hurricane Alley!
I always try to send through delivery confirmation, and I expect the same. It's only 55 cents extra, so it's just a little more than a pay phone call, so just do it for the Kai.  I prefer to trade with people in the US and Canada, sorry everyone else.
http://www.maxminis.com/Forums/tabid/104/forumid/53/postid/655406/view/topic/Default.aspx - references | |
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gregreid
Warrior
276 Posts
| | 08/07/2005 9:49 AM |
| My issue as a DM would be the laminated steel. We would have never gotten past that issue in my game. I have gotten my players past the expectation of getting something in the game just because its in a book somewhere.
greg | |
Champion of the Wolf
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megamadrat
Sneak
126 Posts
| | 08/07/2005 10:41 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Kaya Kenobi
I was talking about average damage:
But accuracy goes way down. The first two will most likely hit while the last two won't. 82 max damage on two hits to 71 max on 3 of 4 hits without PA. PA for 10, you'll probably hit the first time and miss the last 3. 37-47
But does it beat a maximized fireball for 60 damage to multiple enemies?
I am sorry, i got into my ranty place and forgot to mention specifics, the attack routine i mentioned included shock trooper's heedless assault. In which case accuracy is not sacrificed, only the number of attacks. This is made up for by a single insanely powerful attack. | |
Einstein would turn in his grave;
God does play dice, and the dice are loaded!
My left nipple is in fact a horcrux.
Do not tweak the horcrux, it belongs to the Dark Lord! | |
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kestrel.ca
Underboss
1678 Posts
| | 08/07/2005 12:21 PM |
| Going further from Merric's point of imbalance as crits stack, it becomes really obvious the more the multiplier is, not the higher the threat range.
I've played PCs where the threat range was 12-20 (rapier, imp crit, keen, all stacking). Ok, so I often had a crit threat, but even when the crit was confirmed, it barely caught up to a great sword in damage without a crit.
I've also played characters with picks or other x4 multipliers (mercurial greatsword). If you were to stack keen, lam steel, imp crit, you're looking at crit on 17-20 -- probably a third to half your actual hits. 2d6 + 1.5 str + other bonuses x FOUR? You'll easily be dishing out 75 pts of damage, probably a couple times a battle, and that's easily reachable by 10th level, where it's really broken.
Still not sure how I would rule on the laminated steel however, I think it will depend on the group and the players.
[Note: My copy of Sword & Fist lists Bladed Gauntlet at 19-20 threat range. Was 17-20 an error from first printing?] | |
Completed Trades/Transactions: 94 || Bad Trades: 3 (Chaotic Good x2, MackeyV) | |
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Kaya Kenobi
Underboss
1304 Posts
San Jose, California
| | 08/07/2005 12:34 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by kestrel.ca
[Note: My copy of Sword & Fist lists Bladed Gauntlet at 19-20 threat range. Was 17-20 an error from first printing?]
Mine says 19-20 too.
Mercurial Greatsword hasn't been seen around here.. And 17-20 is 20% of the hits is possibly a critical. 80% will always be normal hits, and of those possible criticals, half of them will likely be a crit, others normal hits. :D | |
Just a simple traveler from the swamps of Dagobah otherwise known as Florida. Also known as Hurricane Alley!
I always try to send through delivery confirmation, and I expect the same. It's only 55 cents extra, so it's just a little more than a pay phone call, so just do it for the Kai. I prefer to trade with people in the US and Canada, sorry everyone else.
http://www.maxminis.com/Forums/tabid/104/forumid/53/postid/655406/view/topic/Default.aspx - references | |
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kestrel.ca
Underboss
1678 Posts
| | 08/07/2005 1:14 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Kaya Kenobi
[quote]Originally posted by kestrel.ca
And 17-20 is 20% of the hits is possibly a critical. 80% will always be normal hits, and of those possible criticals, half of them will likely be a crit, others normal hits. :D
Don't confuse hits with rolls. I agree that 17-20 is 20% of rolls, but assuming that many rolls under 10 won't hit, all of a sudden you're up to 40% are critical threats. Assuming about two out of three attempts results in a hit, you have an 80% chance/round of threatening a crit, and probably a 25% of actually landing one. In a four round combat, that's probably at least once (and probably all you'll need). And I'm still looking at this from about 10-12th level PC. | |
Completed Trades/Transactions: 94 || Bad Trades: 3 (Chaotic Good x2, MackeyV) | |
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Malin Lug
Sergeant
742 Posts
| | 08/07/2005 1:21 PM |
| I am playing a fighter type in our current 3.5 game and at 10th level I threaten a crit just about every of every other round. I have improved crit long sword and use two of them with improved two weapon fighting. So with four attacks per round, I am very likely to roll a 17 - 20. That is without breaking any of the base rules about keen and improved crit not stacking. (The character also has oversized off hand weapon which is the only feat not in Players Handbook.)
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"Are you not entertained?" 
Champion of the Common Bar Wench
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Testament
Underboss
1397 Posts
| | 08/07/2005 10:35 PM |
| | For the bladed gauntlet, Merric and I are talking the first printing. Fastest way to tell is check the PrCs. If your Ninja of the Crescent Moon has 3 aced saves, and/or your Halfing Outrider has no BAB, you're looking at the first printing. | |
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adept
Warrior
336 Posts
| | 08/07/2005 11:01 PM |
| | IIRC I once saw a weapon in a diablo variant book that had a weapon that had a 18-20(x3). I think it did 1d8 and was a exotic weapon but still that is insane. For this reason I think that going with crits can get a little crazy. | |
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BigBC
Sergeant
620 Posts
| | 08/08/2005 11:26 AM |
| | Well, we had our D&D session yesterday and my DM agreed with the majority of people here that a greatsword that could crit on a 15-20 or even a 16-20 was too powerful. So she ruled against it, and I'm fine with that. It's her game and I don't want to cause any issues by making her have to 'fix' the enemies we come against to make up for my crit ability. So I still get 17-20 crit threat with my greatsword and that's that. Thanks for the input everyone. [:)] | |
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