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Testament
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08/11/2005 3:28 AM  
The new World of Darkness system is very similar to the old one, with two enormous differences, other than the reorganising of stats. You still have dots in skills and stats that combine to form your pool for any task where there's a roll needed.
1. You always roll for 8s on the d10s, and needing multiples is quite rare.
2. Difficulty reduces your dice pool, rather than changing the target number.

The problem with the system is that the attacker almost always wins. Taking for instance the Vampire power of Dominate, the attacker uses Subterfuge + Manipulation + Dominate. The defender resists with Resolve + Blood Potency. A starting vamp can have a pool of nearly 13 with ease to use the power, whilst having more than 3 in the resistance is quite rare. And its an opposed roll! Combat is little better, where you use dex+brawl/melee/firearms, with your pool reduced by their Defence. The fix my friends and I came up with for ANY contested roll is that the defender is assumed to roll MAX for their resistance. So now the dominating vampire needs to roll 3 successes on their dominate pool to win, making it somewhat harder, and making legendary sucesses (winning by 5 or more) live up to their name. It makes the Security trait worthwhile for your Haven, and really cleans up most of the other bugs in the system.

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08/11/2005 7:09 AM  
quote:
Originally posted by Testament

Actually, falling damage capping out does make sense. Its called Terminal Velocity, you're not going to hit harder than that.




You're right of course. However, that makes sense in real life. D&D is not real life obviously and that's why it's tricky to add realism to an inherently unrealistic game system.



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Sean-Khan
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08/11/2005 7:52 AM  
Hm, maybe D&D is meta-Mage:The Ascention -world? When a player believes that their characters can survive a fall from the clouds, and tell it to other players who also believe it, it changes reality & becomes the truth, and the character actually can survive the fall... [:P]

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08/11/2005 9:18 AM  
quote:
Originally posted by Aravar

Why? Because in gaming I've always wanted to create a similar feel to the great stories. They are what got me into the hobby, and disappointed me about it, in the first place. If I want to play Gauntlet I'll turn to my Playstation.

Do you really prefer a system where a low level character hasn't a hope of doing anything to a high level one? Doesn't it lead to the problem mentioned above that if cetain sorts of people are pointing a crossbow at a PC it doesn't really matter?

I remember Terry Pratchett complained that he had many suggestions for an RPG based on Discworld and he turned them down because the first thing they showed him was the combat system.

There is more to RPGing than repetitive hack'n'slash, all IMHO.



You seem to be forgettign a few things about your two examples. Smaug was hit by dozens of arrows from the men of Laketown before he burned it. None peirced his hide but since hit points don't represent physical wounds necessarily they could be assumed to be doing damage. It was only Bard's final critical (with what was most likely an arrow of dragon slaying) that brought Smaug down. Same is true of Merry and Emowyn defeating the Witch King. He had already had several encounters that day (including one with Gandalf) and was obviously runnign low on hit points - the DM was too over confidnet and his BBEG bit the dust. [:)]

I agree with others that there is no One True Way and every system (and I mean every single system in exsistance now or in the past) has it advantages and disadvantages. To search for the "perfect" system is a fool's errand.

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08/11/2005 2:21 PM  
quote:
Originally posted by Fry

I dislike d100 systems because most of the time you just don't need that extra precision. If 96-100 is a critical hit, why don't you just roll a d20 and say 20 is a crit?



Well, because not all d100 systems go by 5%. I remember original Runequest and Call of Cthullu allowed you to have skills and attacks in between the ?0% and ?5%. If you gained in a skill, it was a random d6 add.


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08/11/2005 2:28 PM  
quote:
Originally posted by Testament

The new World of Darkness system is very similar to the old one, with two enormous differences, other than the reorganising of stats. You still have dots in skills and stats that combine to form your pool for any task where there's a roll needed.
1. You always roll for 8s on the d10s, and needing multiples is quite rare.
2. Difficulty reduces your dice pool, rather than changing the target number.



Ewwwwww, Ick.

I think I like the original system better. (Though I like AEG's R&K better than the WoD original system.)


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08/11/2005 4:14 PM  
quote:
Originally posted by Sean-Khan

Well said, that's why I have my need to develop a perfect system [:D] Maybe it can never be done, maybe everyone just have different tastes, maybe it's roleplayers's philosopher's stone.
Good luck!

quote:
Originally posted by Sean-Khan

I think I've seen one game that had good idea about this (Fudge?); It game the reader a choise of what dice the game would use.
Maybe it was our GM then, but when we played FUDGE we used 6 siders with 2 blanks, 2 +s, and 2 -s. Roll 4 (+ and - cancelled each other) and the result was anywhere from a collossal failure (4 -) to a legendary success (4 +), with the GM setting the standard for actually succeeding (that was one of the problems we had with the system, too arbitrary).


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08/11/2005 7:53 PM  
Obviously there is no way to please every player all the time, but the d20 system has given rise to quick integration of other game genres. I enjoy the system and believe it leveled the playing field with many of the hiccups that 1 and 2e had. I have played other systems, but many had things I didn't like and I've always found myself drawn back to the comfort zone that is D&D.

On the combat issue concerning character risk, there should always be a risk to to the character, otherwise what is the fun in playing? Its like using a cheat code in a video game...why? I use the instant kill system in my games. I find that it keeps players from being too brash concerning "unknowns" (those that appear to be commoners, man-at-arms, etc).

A friend of mine used a system of hit points and battle points. Hit points were those maxed points at first level. Battle points were all the points rolled as a character progresses beyond in levels beyond the first. During the course of combat battle points are deducted as a character takes damage and then into the hit points if he gets low enough. However, if an enemy scores a critical hit, the hit points are deducted first, and when they are gone, your PC drops, no matter how many battle points you have remaining. We had a tendency to fear critical hits.


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08/11/2005 8:52 PM  
quote:
Originally posted by Zeb

A friend of mine used a system of hit points and battle points. Hit points were those maxed points at first level. Battle points were all the points rolled as a character progresses beyond in levels beyond the first. During the course of combat battle points are deducted as a character takes damage and then into the hit points if he gets low enough. However, if an enemy scores a critical hit, the hit points are deducted first, and when they are gone, your PC drops, no matter how many battle points you have remaining. We had a tendency to fear critical hits.


That's basically the system Star Wars and other systems use - Wound Points + Vitality Points, although Wound Points are equal to your Con score.

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08/11/2005 10:25 PM  
I stopped playing D&D around 1988 when it was still AD&D. Back then, all we had really was the core books and a DM's creativity. A lot of the systems didn't make sense to me (strength, AC, level limits to certain classes/races). When a friend got me back into the RPG world three years ago, two things really opened my eyes. The 3.0 system "made sense", and there was a bounty of good supplemental resources out there. Some of the OGL stuff is not very good, while some of it is too good (read broken). Nevertheless, it has opened up the game to many more creative minds, and allows the DM to throw things at players that the players do not know how to fight - I hate when players metagame and use just the perfect weapon/tactic/item in order to defeat a given monster. Yes, in our campaign, the cruel DM's Troll's weakness is not fire or acid....

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08/11/2005 11:04 PM  
Harlock, I personally consider the new WoD system much better for one reason: The probability curve now MAKES SENSE! Before, with the rule of 1s cancelling successes (which no longer exists, I forgot to mention that), the better a person was at a task, the more likely they were to completely bugger it up!

Yes, the R&K system is fantastic though, if lethal. Our local L5R GM's record is over 200 damage in one blow, dealt by an Oni. I really pity the player who copped it.

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08/12/2005 3:37 AM  
quote:
Originally posted by PatEllis15



When I was in college I played all kinds of games. Now I have a hard time playing twice a month.



Hehe, taking this out of context ... we're all getting old Pat. [:)]

D20 works for me. I may have ended up being a much more serious person without RPG.

I have always been here.

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08/12/2005 4:02 AM  
I haven't read through this entire thread (though I will!), but I'd just like to chime in and say that I think the White Wolf (Vampire, etc.) system was the most elegant one for handling stats and resolving actions. It didn't put so much focus on adding and subtracting countless modifiers, and let the action and story proceed smoothly.
The West End Star Wars RPG also had a great system -- but like all Star Wars games I've liked, they were destroyed when Lucas took them away from the good game companies and put them all under one umbrella.
I've never actually used it yet, but I also like the appearance of the Silhouette CORE rules from Dream Pod 9.

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08/12/2005 4:07 AM  
quote:
Originally posted by Count Dooku
Older folks who are lucky to play once a month (like me) dont play enough to want different systems. There are some of us who still consult the PHB 3 or more times a session. The last thing we want is to have to learn a new set of rules for a new RPG. Id get rules for one game confused with another.
Partly, I agree with this -- but (surprise surprise) partly I don't. For me and my friends, 3.0 was a new set of rules to learn. Even though we were "older folks" (not long out of college, but out of college nonetheless) who could only meet twice a month, we still made the change with little difficulty (more difficulty for the DM (me) than the players, I think). I definitely do not think d20 is the best system, but it's not the worst, either.

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08/12/2005 5:23 AM  
With the game system I'm currently developing, I've been thinking a lot about the dice to be used. I've thought of using 2D10, but there's some negative things with that; First, 2D10 is slower to read and calculate than D20. D20 is a nice invention, I'll have to agree... Or has anyone here something to say against this? Do you get used to 2D10 -system well?

On the other hand, while I like strong chance of getting average results, I realized that contest of skills favor really strongly the one who has few points higher skill/ability. While it's realistic in theory, my system so far may have pretty large differences with skill levels, even at low power levels - Just like D20 -system. This makes me understand the choise of D20 for this game much better. And, it gives some excitement... Take 10 (and 20) is a good addition to the rule.

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