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Monsoon28
Underboss
2299 Posts
    
Toronto
 | | 09/23/2005 4:11 AM |
| | recovered topic 9060 | |
"I was sittin' here eatin' my muffin, drinkin' my coffee, replayin' the incident in my head, when I had what alcoholics refer to as a moment of clarity." - Jules Winnfield
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Monsoon28
Underboss
2299 Posts
Toronto
| | 09/23/2005 4:11 AM |
| | Hate to say it but find a comfortable hole in the ground and rest up until your wounds are minor. If you do have a cleric at least every day he/she can burn all their divine magic on healing until your all sufficiently rested. | |
"I was sittin' here eatin' my muffin, drinkin' my coffee, replayin' the incident in my head, when I had what alcoholics refer to as a moment of clarity." - Jules Winnfield
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Jimbodwarf
Sneak
103 Posts
| | 09/23/2005 4:18 AM |
| | Do you want to know how to defeat the Giants or regain your HPs??? | |
"Dorrak" of Hammer and Axe on Argonnessen in DDO | |
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Malin Lug
Sergeant
742 Posts
| | 09/23/2005 5:17 AM |
| We actually have two clerics, one is a 7th level cleric the other is a 2nd level cleric. They don't have enough healing magic to heal up that kind of damage though. The real problem is we can't stop, there is a time issue and we really need to keep going. We are a well prepared group, everyone has potions and even a couple of wands of healing. But we are pretty sure that we are going to be running into other giants (in addition to demons and anything else that happens to be in our way.) Is there any way to go after giants without just taking it on the chin? The quarters are too close for missle weapons, and thrown boulders do alot more damage than our arrows anyway.
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griffrat
Commander
3506 Posts
| | 09/23/2005 5:30 AM |
| I would suggestusing cover and the advantage of the terrrain to get the better of the enemy. If the DM would allow you might try setting up ambushes. If you really can't go toe to toe get creative with the natural surroundings.
For instance if the area that you are in is prone to rock slides (the giants have to get the rocks from somewhere) set up a forced rock slide. Rock slides cause a lot of damage [:D] If it is a dungeon setting try finding an alternate route to the location you need to get to. Lure the giants into a seperate tunnel and collapse it, and use the alternate route. You might not be able to kill them but if you can delay them and get around the obstacle, then all the better.
Just my two cents.....
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Wayne
Underboss
1371 Posts
| | 09/23/2005 6:32 AM |
| Load up on tanglefoot bags, soften earth and stone, grease, and such things that target a giant's Reflex save.Ray of enfeeblement is nearly indispensable ... at y'all's level, you should have it Empowered or Split Rayed (or both). (A 10th-level caster sucks 9-16 Strength from a giant with an empowered ray of enfeeblement. That goes a long way toward reducing its threat.)
The basic idea is that if you go toe-to-toe with a giant or group of giants, they're going to dish out more damage than you do. It's what they're designed to do, and so it's a race you can't win. The solution, then, is to cripple their ability to do massive amounts of damage and then start whittling away their hit points.
BTW, hopefully your DM is compensating for the "magic poor" nature of the campaign when it comes to the CRs of his monsters. D&D is designed around the idea that characters will have access to lots of magic ... when characters don't, they are much, much less powerful than their levels indicate. | |
Jeff "Wayne Laredo" Wilder | Email | Have/Want List | Trade Policies | Are You an Ethical Trader?
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psistef
Underboss
1572 Posts
| | 09/23/2005 6:50 AM |
| That's a good point. Is there compensation for the low level magic?
Why a low magic game? | |
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Choco Monster
Ghendar
Warlord
11456 Posts
In ur house, stealin' yur minis
| | 09/23/2005 7:31 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Wayne
Load up on tanglefoot bags,
Not a bad idea, but (and I don't have my books in front of me) wouldn't the giants with their strength and all be able to break out of the tanglefoot? | |
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Wayne
Underboss
1371 Posts
| | 09/23/2005 7:42 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Ghendar
Not a bad idea, but (and I don't have my books in front of me) wouldn't the giants with their strength and all be able to break out of the tanglefoot?
Yes, even if they fail the initial save, they'll likely break out quickly. But the thing is, tanglefoot bags are ridiculously overpowered: even if the save is made and even after they're broken, they still halve the victim's speed.
In any event, tossing a tanglefoot bag is only an attack action, while breaking out of one is a full round action. You're ahead of the game already. And there's a small chance the giant will be tied up for a round or two extra.
My group got very good at taking giants down efficiently, often without taking any damage. (Of course, we have full gear value for our level.) | |
Jeff "Wayne Laredo" Wilder | Email | Have/Want List | Trade Policies | Are You an Ethical Trader?
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griffrat
Commander
3506 Posts
| | 09/23/2005 7:42 AM |
| | If you didn't hit them with ray of enfeeblement first...[)] | |
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Wayne
Underboss
1371 Posts
| | 09/23/2005 7:47 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by griffrat
If you didn't hit them with ray of enfeeblement first...
Oh, right. I pointed that out, too, but I accidentally did it in really, really small font. Like, seriously small. | |
Jeff "Wayne Laredo" Wilder | Email | Have/Want List | Trade Policies | Are You an Ethical Trader?
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griffrat
Commander
3506 Posts
| | 09/23/2005 7:51 AM |
| | My players opening round almost always consists of RoE. It is the true balancing act for going toe to toe. A very nice spell that doesn't do any damage. But totally reduces the damage that is received/dished out....[:D] | |
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Ghendar
Warlord
11456 Posts
In ur house, stealin' yur minis
| | 09/23/2005 7:53 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Wayne
quote:
Originally posted by Ghendar
Not a bad idea, but (and I don't have my books in front of me) wouldn't the giants with their strength and all be able to break out of the tanglefoot?
Yes, even if they fail the initial save, they'll likely break out quickly. But the thing is, tanglefoot bags are ridiculously overpowered: even if the save is made and even after they're broken, they still halve the victim's speed.
In any event, tossing a tanglefoot bag is only an attack action, while breaking out of one is a full round action. You're ahead of the game already. And there's a small chance the giant will be tied up for a round or two extra.
Hmmm, I'll have to remember this.
Note to self, buy tanglefoot bags. | |
Ghendar - Now snark free!
Champion of the Spider Eater with rider.
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Malin Lug
Sergeant
742 Posts
| | 09/23/2005 1:04 PM |
| Some examples of the "magic poor" system: A wizard has 2 stats that their spells are based on, Int and Essence. They need a 16 Int to learn a 6th level spell, but they need a 16 Essence to cast it. There are no sorcerers at all and a wizard can only memorize a spell one time. There is no compensation from the GM for low magic, but we have a large group and quite a few very experienced players and tactician.
Our last giant encounter consisted of 5 of them in an open area. A tangelfoot bag could have effected one of them. The group dynamics consist of: a dwarven defender (tank), a dwarven fighter/ cleric (only a 2nd level cleric), a Human fighter (two weapon specialist), a 1/2 elf Monk (grappler variant), a tabaxi warrior (currently a ghostwalk ghost), a tabaxi wizard (good at what she does), and a human rogue/abjurer (pretty useless as he is only a 3rd level abjurer). We use tumble to avoid attacks of opportunity and the dwarves in full plate are hard to hit. The big problem is we were expecting demons and now have to go full bore through these giants and then into their demon overlords.
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"Are you not entertained?"
Champion of the Common Bar Wench
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Omand
Commander
3120 Posts
Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada
| | 09/23/2005 9:32 PM |
| Malin,
It sounds like you are using a heavily modified version of D&D, so any advice we give you will have to adapt for your specific game.
Some other notes:
1. Use whatever range you can against the giants. Even one or two rounds of arrows are two fewer rounds away from being swatted by the giants.
2. Giants tend to have poor will saves, you can use illusions and compulsion type spells against them if other suggestions given above don't work.
3. Besides using Tanglefoot bags, consider using oil and alchemist's fire. Does not do a huge amount of damage, but against all but Fire giants it does add up.
4. Reach weapons are your friends. If you can, loot some longspears or something to give your fighters space between them and the giants.
Other than that, look at the above suggestions and take what you can for the campaign you are playing.
Cheers [:)] | |
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Omand
Commander
3120 Posts
Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada
| | 09/23/2005 9:35 PM |
| Malin,
One other things I just noted. You said the last encounter with giants occured in an open area. If you were outside you should have had a chance to spot the giants from a fair distance away. Ranged attacks would then have come into play to cut the giants down a bit. If in caverns (with the encouter in a big caver), take the fight back to the tunnels. if only one giant can attack your party at a time you can dish out more damage (2 medium characters vs a large, etc.) and work your way through them.
Cheers [)] | |
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tomas
Sergeant
531 Posts
Spicer, MN
| | 09/23/2005 10:45 PM |
| | If you are underground, I would agree with Omand. Get someplace where the giants have to stoop to get to you. That will reduce their ranged attacks as well as forcing them to attack with only piercing weapons. I think there is also a penalty on dexterity or reflex saves if you are in an confined space. | |
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jgsugden
Commander
4320 Posts
Walnut Creek, CA
| | 09/23/2005 10:58 PM |
| Confusion. If you can get your bard or wizard to cast confusion, most giant battles are rather simple. In my campaign, the PC bard nearly soloed a group of seven hill giants with a confusion spell.
Beyond that, remember that violence is not always the answer ... sometimes avoiding a battle is as good as winning it. | |
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wicked cool
Underboss
2091 Posts
| | 09/23/2005 11:22 PM |
| | quickdraw feat is a nice option if u have the feat. with multiple attacks u can get some ranged attacks in. Other options are flanking/sneak attacks. Getting shots from elevated ground/lowered ground are advantages | |
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Zenako
Commander
3468 Posts
| | 09/24/2005 1:24 AM |
| Giants are not that hard to deal with if you have just a little prep. Is it possible to cast Greater Magic Weapon in your group? A batch of 50 enchanted arrows, combined with a magic and inherently strong bow can do some serious damage at distance pretty quickly. Rapid shot boosts the number of attack to 3.
Entangle spell is great in the outdoors. It REALLY slows down the enemy and can give you all the extra time you need. Another thing is make sure that your group uses efficient combat tactics and concentrate damage on one giant at a time if possible to reduce the number of foes quickly.
Were these "normal" hill giants or more evolved ones like Fire Giants?
Can the rogue be made invisible, gives him a big first strike advantage and a moderate amount of sneak attack damage first round.
It also sounds like the magic poor aspect has to do more heavily with spell casters than possibly for items. Use all the minor clerical spell boosts you can. One Bless spell may well be worth far more net effect than the CLW cast after the battle. It might allow a few more hits sooner and drop the giant before it gets another swing (or more).
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Malin Lug
Sergeant
742 Posts
| | 09/24/2005 1:53 PM |
| Yes, it is in a large indoor complex. There are no hallways where they have to stoop. The Hallways are 10 foot wide and 20 foot high. They are juiced up Hll giants so far, quite a bit stronger I think, but we are pretty sure we are going to be facing at least one or two powerful fire giants. Even with greater magic weapon and flame arrow, our missle weapons can not match their thrown rocks for damage. We are able to overwhelm them in hand to hand combat, but we are going to be taking hits as we go. Our wizard does use spells on them that are will or reflex based and has softened up whole groups with a well placed fire ball and has taken out leaders with hold monster or feeblemind. The low magic in the world means that we rally havn't found very many magic items. Our wizard has had to make her own items. Our fighters have had to get their own weapons enchanted. As far as our thief is concerned, he won't move up into melee combat even if he is invisible. He really isn't much use. The most he does in melee combat is fire his crossbow.
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"Are you not entertained?"
Champion of the Common Bar Wench
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Omand
Commander
3120 Posts
Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada
| | 09/24/2005 2:43 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Malin Lug
Yes, it is in a large indoor complex. There are no hallways where they have to stoop. The Hallways are 10 foot wide and 20 foot high. They are juiced up Hll giants so far, quite a bit stronger I think, but we are pretty sure we are going to be facing at least one or two powerful fire giants. Even with greater magic weapon and flame arrow, our missle weapons can not match their thrown rocks for damage. We are able to overwhelm them in hand to hand combat, but we are going to be taking hits as we go. Our wizard does use spells on them that are will or reflex based and has softened up whole groups with a well placed fire ball and has taken out leaders with hold monster or feeblemind. The low magic in the world means that we rally havn't found very many magic items. Our wizard has had to make her own items. Our fighters have had to get their own weapons enchanted. As far as our thief is concerned, he won't move up into melee combat even if he is invisible. He really isn't much use. The most he does in melee combat is fire his crossbow.
Malin,
Inside a built complex as you describe the hallways are still more friendly to you than the rooms. A 10 foot wide hallway can only fit one giant at a time standing up. All other giants are then fighting through melee against your group and take attack penalties.
And if this is a built complex, where are the giants getting rocks form? They can only carry so many.
Cheers [:)] | |
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| Darastrix Maekrix
dariustad
Warlord
6322 Posts
| | 09/24/2005 5:13 PM |
| I'm with the others. A properly built fighter-based archer is nasty (I know; I'm RPing one in a game right now). Even with low magic, if the archer has many of these feats:
Weapon Focus
Weapon Specialization
Rapid Shot
Precise Shot
Improved Precise Shot
Many Shot
Improved Rapid Shot (Complete Warrior)
Greater Weapon Focus (optional)
Greater Weapon Specialization (optional)
Sharpshooter (Complete Warrior)
(Some of these are level dependent)
Combine this with a high DEX, high STR bow, and a full BAB
Toss in two levels of Order of the Bow Initiate, and he's firing in melee, too.
They are going to hit, hit often, and the damage starts building. I've lost track of the sheer number of times I have removed a threat from someone on the front lines so they can start beating on the next threat. Sometimes, more than one in the same round.
Who cares if it's underground, with ceilings. A well-made archer will simply start shooting and not let up until the enemies stop twitching.
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Malin Lug
Sergeant
742 Posts
| | 09/24/2005 5:23 PM |
| We don't have any archer specialist. We do a lot of fighting in caves and dungeons where long ranged missle weapons have not been too much help. We also use some of the variants in Unearthed Arcana like weapon group proficencies. So here is my character:
Human Survivor(spelless variant of Ranger) 5 / Fighter 4 / Tempest 1 (the 3.0 version which I have been working towards since 2nd level)
Feats: Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, Weapon Fcs Heavy Blades, Weapon Specialization Heavy Blades, 2 weapon fighting, Oversized off hand weapon, Track, Combat Expertise, Improved Critical Heavy Blades, Improved 2 weapon fighting. I use two long swords (reasons for not useing scimitars) I have boots of speed so when going all out I have 5 attacks per round and threaten a crit almost every round. And I am the best archer that we have. LOL
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"Are you not entertained?"
Champion of the Common Bar Wench
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Testament
Underboss
1397 Posts
| | 09/25/2005 12:44 AM |
| 1: Ray of Enfeeblement, Languor (CD), Slow. These three spells are your friends for fighting the INCREDIBLE beating power of giants.
2: I reiterate the recommendation for Tanglefoot Bags. Burn off the Giant's actions, that means less full attacks!
3. Blitzing. Bring all your firepower to bear on one giant at a time, take it down, move to the next. | |
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Nixlord
Underboss
2468 Posts
Quezon City, Philippines
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IanB
Commander
3112 Posts
| | 09/25/2005 4:32 AM |
| Will saves, will saves, will saves, and more will saves.
Giant will saves SUCK. Confusion is a favorite of mine but hold monster, slow, glitterdust, crushing despair, suggestion, bestow curse, and fear can be very useful as well. (Limiting it to spells of 5th or lower due to your level.)
The great thing about confusion is it gets the giants into feedback loops where they beat on each other because they always attack the last creature that attacked them, so often they pair off and you can ignore them. | |
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Malin Lug
Sergeant
742 Posts
| | 09/25/2005 2:39 PM |
| Yes... our wizard uses will save spells against giants. The problem of only memorizing a spell a single time. Once it's gone, it's gone. She has not had alot of time to make scrolls. We do an excellent job of concentrating attacks to take out a single target quickly. The realty is though, with four - five people in melee combat, four of them very capable of dealing an incredible amount of damage, we can take down even a very powerful giant in a single round or two at most.
The suggestion of Glitterdust is a good one, and it is a spell that our wizard has, but is saving for invisible oponents. We have run into them many, many times.
We have used tanglefoot bags to good effect in the past.
Once again, we can't go to town to buy anything new and have no time to stop and rest. | |
"Are you not entertained?"
Champion of the Common Bar Wench
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Omand
Commander
3120 Posts
Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada
| | 09/25/2005 5:39 PM |
| Malin,
A question for you. You have mentioned several times that the Wizard can only memorize a spell a single time. Do you mean that they can only memorize one sample of a spell per day (as opposed to two or three fireballs at a time), or do you mean that a wizard can only memorize one spell a day per level, or do you mean a wizard can only ever memorize a single spell once and if they want to use it again they have to scribe it to a scroll?
I have to say I would not really want to play in such a campaign, but whatever works for your group.
Cheers [:)] | |
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Malin Lug
Sergeant
742 Posts
| | 09/25/2005 6:00 PM |
| A wizard can only memorize a spell a single time per day.
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"Are you not entertained?"
Champion of the Common Bar Wench
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Fry
Underboss
1724 Posts
| | 09/26/2005 2:29 PM |
| | You said the party has some wands...get wands of the spells you want the wizard to spam, then. [:P] | |
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