nyjastul69
Commander
2710 Posts
    
Rhode Island
 | | 09/30/2005 12:43 PM |
| | recovered topic 9332 | |
You know, I keep thinking that after the new design team gets done with D&D 4e, D&D won't stand for Dungeons and Dragons anymore, because well, that's just not fun. It's old and stuffy. - Originally Posted by BabWryter on Kenzerco.com | |
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nyjastul69
Commander
2710 Posts
Rhode Island
| | 09/30/2005 12:43 PM |
| | ECL is figured out by adding the LA to a creatures HD. ECL is used to determine how powerful a creature (as a PC) is in relation to other characters. It's what you use to determine it's level on the xp table. | |
You know, I keep thinking that after the new design team gets done with D&D 4e, D&D won't stand for Dungeons and Dragons anymore, because well, that's just not fun. It's old and stuffy. - Originally Posted by BabWryter on Kenzerco.com | |
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Fry
Underboss
1724 Posts
| | 09/30/2005 12:58 PM |
| | ECL is the level of an equivalent standard PC-race character. LA is how much better the creature is than a PC with an equivalent number of hit dice (which is why you add LA to HD to get ECL). | |
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The Great
Choco Monster
Ghendar
Warlord
11456 Posts
In ur house, stealin' yur minis
| | 09/30/2005 1:23 PM |
| | I'm very dubious about the whole ECL thing. You can have a character with a bunch of funky abilities that boosts the ECL but only has a couple hit dice and will go down like a little bee-otch if hit. | |
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Wrackspawn
ChristopherGroves
Warlord
6093 Posts
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ilarue
Underboss
1259 Posts
| | 09/30/2005 1:31 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Ghendar
I'm very dubious about the whole ECL thing. You can have a character with a bunch of funky abilities that boosts the ECL but only has a couple hit dice and will go down like a little bee-otch if hit.
Yeah but if you use those funky abilities properly they can be very deadly hence why the ECL is high. It's sort of like a wizard—won’t last very long in melee, but at a distance very deadly. | |
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nyjastul69
Commander
2710 Posts
Rhode Island
| | 09/30/2005 1:46 PM |
| | I played a Pixie Rogue once. Good abilities, especially for a Rogue, but I had only 1 HD at 5th level. I was rather squishy. But I was almost never hit. | |
You know, I keep thinking that after the new design team gets done with D&D 4e, D&D won't stand for Dungeons and Dragons anymore, because well, that's just not fun. It's old and stuffy. - Originally Posted by BabWryter on Kenzerco.com | |
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The Great
Choco Monster
Ghendar
Warlord
11456 Posts
In ur house, stealin' yur minis
| | 09/30/2005 2:49 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by ilarue
quote:
Originally posted by Ghendar
I'm very dubious about the whole ECL thing. You can have a character with a bunch of funky abilities that boosts the ECL but only has a couple hit dice and will go down like a little bee-otch if hit.
Yeah but if you use those funky abilities properly they can be very deadly hence why the ECL is high. It's sort of like a wizard—won’t last very long in melee, but at a distance very deadly.
Yeah, but what if you build a fighter with a high ECL. You now have a front line hitter that, as I said, will go down like a little bee-0tch if hit because he has fewer hit dice than a fighter with an equal amount of "levels" | |
Ghendar - Now snark free!
Champion of the Spider Eater with rider.
I actually love to be swallowed. - Posted By gss_000 on 09/04/2007 2:32 PM
How many times in life do you get to eat your own Cthulhu - Posted By Pedro on 03/31/2008 2:29 | |
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nyjastul69
Commander
2710 Posts
Rhode Island
| | 09/30/2005 3:06 PM |
| It really depends on the build.
quote:
Originally posted by Ghendar:
Yeah, but what if you build a fighter with a high ECL. You now have a front line hitter that, as I said, will go down like a little bee-0tch if hit because he has fewer hit dice than a fighter with an equal amount of "levels"
Don't build that.[:D][:p]
I had a Drider Cleric for a shortie we played in the Tues game I play in. Considering the Wis adjustment it was a pretty nice character.
Okay, so y'all don't think we always twink things out in our game (not that there's anything wrong with that) for about a year we were rotating the DM in short senarios to explore some of the elements of the rules that don't normally show up in a 'standard' D&D game. It was quite fun, each game ran from 5-12 sessions each. Right now we're back to the basics. I'm playing a vaneric(Vanilla Cleric), Human Cleric ya gotta love 'em. | |
You know, I keep thinking that after the new design team gets done with D&D 4e, D&D won't stand for Dungeons and Dragons anymore, because well, that's just not fun. It's old and stuffy. - Originally Posted by BabWryter on Kenzerco.com | |
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ilarue
Underboss
1259 Posts
| | 09/30/2005 4:50 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Ghendar
Yeah, but what if you build a fighter with a high ECL. You now have a front line hitter that, as I said, will go down like a little bee-0tch if hit because he has fewer hit dice than a fighter with an equal amount of "levels"
You can always build something that doesn't make sense or work well. But the ECL is getting bumped for a reason, and if you want the character to be effective, you have to use it's strengths and minimize the effects of its weakness. | |
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megamadrat
Sneak
126 Posts
| | 09/30/2005 5:59 PM |
| | I find when it comes to LA's somewhere about a 1 in 3 or 1 in 4 ratio of Level adjustments to Class levels means you will get about the right balance of good stuff from race and from class without being too squishy one way or the other. | |
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Testament
Underboss
1397 Posts
| | 09/30/2005 9:08 PM |
| | High ECLs are almost never worth it, unless most of it is HD. I still say the biggest ECL bargain out there is Hobgblin, +1 ECL, and for it you get +2 Dex and Con, darkvision and bonuses to hide and move silently. Sign me up! | |
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Cthulhufnord
Warlord
10864 Posts
Umass Amherst Baby!
| | 10/01/2005 12:43 PM |
| Or the Hobbie in 3.0 with no level ajustment.[:p] They ended up being one of the most common monster characters in a several campains.
quote:
Originally posted by Testament
High ECLs are almost never worth it, unless most of it is HD. I still say the biggest ECL bargain out there is Hobgblin, +1 ECL, and for it you get +2 Dex and Con, darkvision and bonuses to hide and move silently. Sign me up!
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Aesnath
Underboss
1358 Posts
Augusta, GA
| | 10/01/2005 4:53 PM |
| | Oh, you can make a good fighter, but just make sure you get a nice boost to your Con to make up for lack of HD. Try a Troll for instance. He'll still probably have fewer Hp than a fighter of equal ECL (but not always), but he'll have resonably close just because of his bonus to Con. And he has regen, which is nice. A good rule is don't go over +5 actual Level adjustment. If you do pick up LA, always be sure you're getting something you won't easily from classes, like regen, SR, DR, or even large size. If you pick up a race without one of those abilities and a LA of +2 or better, you might reconsider. | |
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Dragon Snack
Warrior
285 Posts
| | 10/03/2005 3:23 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Cthulhufnord
Or the Hobbie in 3.0 with no level ajustment.[:p] They ended up being one of the most common monster characters in a several campains.
quote:
Originally posted by Testament
High ECLs are almost never worth it, unless most of it is HD. I still say the biggest ECL bargain out there is Hobgblin, +1 ECL, and for it you get +2 Dex and Con, darkvision and bonuses to hide and move silently. Sign me up!
But the Hobgoblin is still inferior to most of the standard player races, especially Dwarves.
And then there's the Whisper Gnome... | |
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The Mighty
jai
Commander
3235 Posts
| | 10/04/2005 9:49 AM |
| | You wanna see nasty ... put together a Half-Dragon (+3) Ogre (+7) Barbarian 3rd = 13th level ... low HP, but everything else is disgusting ... | | | |
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reezel
Sergeant
555 Posts
| | 10/05/2005 4:31 PM |
| Jai, I have seen just that combo, and I know that's exactly why Ghendar was so wary of ECLs, because we both watched that character in a campaign. Sure, he could dish out damage like you wouldn't believe. It was astonoshing to see he wasted a gray renderer with little to no trouble. Then of course the player started realizing that in most fights, 2 hits and he was unconscious. I knew that if he and my wizard dueled, one lighting bolt would take him out of commision.
From what I've seen, ECL tends to be stattedd high for most monsters. The theory 1 HD counts for one level does not work very well in execution at all. A character with a class gets a HD and then some with most levels, but that doesn't seem to be taken into account with most ECLs | |
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FeranEldritchKnight
Sergeant
385 Posts
Kansas City, MO USA
| | 10/06/2005 12:42 AM |
| ECLs are there for a reason. I saw a pixie wizard who had her ECL cut down because the DM (1.) didn't understand how it worked and (2.) thought the +4 was too high. But look at it this way:
Ablilty Scores:-4 Str[^], +8 dex[:0] +6 Int[V] +4 Wis[?] +6 Cha[:X] you tell me if the Str penalty is worth it playing a Wiz- basically +4 AC from dex, +3 on save DCs and wicked ammount of bonus spells.
Small size: +1 AC and BAB-- this puts a pixie at base AC 15 so far, not accounting for what the actual rolled stat for the Dex is.
Bonus Feat: Dodge-- AC now 16
+1 Natural armor: AC now 17
Plus you add bonus innate spells, DR 10 (cold iron), and SR 15+level
Now you have a wizard that you can't hit, especially with Mage Armor and a Ring of Deflection, plus DR so you don't get dropped real easy, and in case of opposing wizard? SR! Tell me, is that worth a +4 or what? | |
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orcdoubleax
Sergeant
694 Posts
| | 10/07/2005 8:21 AM |
| | Character that are based on large races that have a high str bonus and a high ECL cause a particular problem. They can dish out so much damage that they can kill almost any monster of a correct CR in a round or two. Anything that can stand up to them is far too dangerous. Combat becomes all or nothing. Short brutal combats where the party is easily destroyed or virtually untouched. The only way you can have a reasonable fight is with high HP monsters that for some strange reason do very low damage. | |
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Testament
Underboss
1397 Posts
| | 10/08/2005 10:07 PM |
| | Not so much IME, since the high ECL means you've got low HP for your level, and can't really stand up to any kind of protracted combat. | |
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