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nyjastul69
Commander
2710 Posts
    
Rhode Island
 | | 10/23/2005 2:47 PM |
| | recovered topic 10259 | |
You know, I keep thinking that after the new design team gets done with D&D 4e, D&D won't stand for Dungeons and Dragons anymore, because well, that's just not fun. It's old and stuffy. - Originally Posted by BabWryter on Kenzerco.com | |
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nyjastul69
Commander
2710 Posts
Rhode Island
| | 10/23/2005 2:47 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Aegis Maul:
In the gaming group I play with the DM had a NPC use Chain Lighting. This is the first time the spell has come into play as we are getting up there in levels.
My question is this a "line effect" spell. The Dm did not play this way, cast it at our party with plenty of creatures in the way. The effect originated at the target PC. The spell indicates a range where as Lightning bolt indicates line.
Thanks!
From the SRD:
Chain Lightning
Evocation [Electricity]
Level: Air 6, Sor/Wiz 6
Components: V, S, F
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Long (400 ft. + 40 ft./level)
Targets: One primary target, plus one secondary target/level (each of which must be within 30 ft. of the primary target)
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Reflex half
Spell Resistance: Yes
This spell creates an electrical discharge that begins as a single stroke commencing from your fingertips. Unlike lightning bolt, chain lightning strikes one object or creature initially, then arcs to other targets.
The bolt deals 1d6 points of electricity damage per caster level (maximum 20d6) to the primary target. After it strikes, lightning can arc to a number of secondary targets equal to your caster level (maximum 20). The secondary bolts each strike one target and deal half as much damage as the primary one did (rounded down).
Each target can attempt a Reflex saving throw for half damage. You choose secondary targets as you like, but they must all be within 30 feet of the primary target, and no target can be struck more than once. You can choose to affect fewer secondary targets than the maximum.
Focus: A bit of fur; a piece of amber, glass, or a crystal rod; plus one silver pin for each of your caster levels.
Your DM handled this incorrectly. It starts out as a Lighting Bolt but doesn't extend past the first target, unlike lightning bolt, which would. After hitting the first target it can then arc to other targets. Does this help or did I confuse matters? I think the spell description is pretty cut and dry on this one.
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You know, I keep thinking that after the new design team gets done with D&D 4e, D&D won't stand for Dungeons and Dragons anymore, because well, that's just not fun. It's old and stuffy. - Originally Posted by BabWryter on Kenzerco.com | |
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Lady-Bast
Warrior
242 Posts
Central Illinois
| | 10/23/2005 3:02 PM |
| We have played it as a targeted spell. It has alot fewer possible targets than lightning bolt, but being able to choose your targets is the real adventage of the 6th level spell versus the 3rd level spell. It is a powerful spell and should have some advantages.
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nyjastul69
Commander
2710 Posts
Rhode Island
| | 10/23/2005 3:05 PM |
| | That's an interesting house rule. It allows it more flexibility but might not break it. I might shorten the range on a targeted version. I'd have to think about it more. | |
You know, I keep thinking that after the new design team gets done with D&D 4e, D&D won't stand for Dungeons and Dragons anymore, because well, that's just not fun. It's old and stuffy. - Originally Posted by BabWryter on Kenzerco.com | |
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Aegis Maul
Skirmisher
2 Posts
| | 10/23/2005 3:37 PM |
| Thanks for the input, both make sense. As I re-read the spell desciption I see "single Stoke from finger tips."
I think you could even make a argument that it arcs from the casters finger tips. I will share both views with my DM. | |
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Testament
Underboss
1397 Posts
| | 10/23/2005 8:47 PM |
| Reading that, its a targetted effect. It starts at one creature within long range, and then arcs to the other victims.
Nyjastul, I think you're wrong. If it was a line effect, under the description it would say "Line, see text", just as Lightning Bolt says in the parameters that its a line effect. | |
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nyjastul69
Commander
2710 Posts
Rhode Island
| | 10/23/2005 10:50 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Testament:
Nyjastul, I think you're wrong. If it was a line effect, under the description it would say "Line, see text", just as Lightning Bolt says in the parameters that its a line effect.
quote:
Originally posted by Nyjastul69: (from the SRD)
This spell creates an electrical discharge that begins as a single stroke commencing from your fingertips. Unlike lightning bolt, chain lightning strikes one object or creature initially, then arcs to other targets.
The emphasis is mine and I don't check the errata as often as I should. So, assuming no errata.[B)]
I don't think the spell leaves much up to interpretation. A single stroke starting at the casters fingertips, it then strikes one target and can arc from there. The target has to be within range. You of course need 'line of effect' to the target as well. Lightning Bolt does not require line of sight to any target in it's area of effect. I think this spell's description isn't quite as clear as Lightning Bolt's. I don't think line of sight is necessary to the primary target, but it it wouldn't be able yo arc to secondary, tertiary, etc. targets without line of sight. It's the the first sentence, 'This spell creates an electrical discharge that begins as a single stroke commencing from your fingertips.', that makes the 'effect' pretty clear. I see what your saying about a 'single target', but in the top synopsis of the spell i think it's misleading. I'll have to look a little more closely when i get home.
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You know, I keep thinking that after the new design team gets done with D&D 4e, D&D won't stand for Dungeons and Dragons anymore, because well, that's just not fun. It's old and stuffy. - Originally Posted by BabWryter on Kenzerco.com | |
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Testament
Underboss
1397 Posts
| | 10/24/2005 1:54 AM |
| Que? So are you saying its a line effect or not? Under effect and range there is no mention of "Line", so its not a Line. Simple. You pick a target within range, and the spell effect starts there, like you're slinging a magic missile. As with any targeted spell, you need line of sight and line of effect, but that's the only place anything like line comes in here.
Using the battlemat, a lightning bolt is a straight line, drawn on it, along the path you want your 20,000,000+ volts to go. Chain Lightning doesn't do this, you pick a valid target (ie, LoS, LoE true), and they get fried. Then you pick the secondary targets within range, and they get fried.
Look at the paramaters again. Chain Lightning isn't a line effect. | |
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nyjastul69
Commander
2710 Posts
Rhode Island
| | 10/24/2005 8:29 AM |
| | It's definitely not a line effect, otherwise it wouldn't stop at the first target. I do however think it's an exception to the standard rules for effects. There are many spells that don't play by the default rules for effects. I don't think it's quit as cut and dry as I first stated. But I don't understand how the single stroke that starts at the casters fingertips can skip someone. That just doesn't sit well with me. Maybe I'm getting too hung-up on the descrition. Maybe it's just poorly written (wouldn't be the first). If the first sentence in the description is just flavor text, then it illustrates why I hate flavor text when trying to define the rules. I think the first sentence is more than flavor text however. | |
You know, I keep thinking that after the new design team gets done with D&D 4e, D&D won't stand for Dungeons and Dragons anymore, because well, that's just not fun. It's old and stuffy. - Originally Posted by BabWryter on Kenzerco.com | |
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gregreid
Warrior
276 Posts
| | 10/24/2005 8:53 AM |
| I agree with nyjastul69 on this one.
Overall the effect is not a line effect because of the chain that occurs after the first target but you cannot ignore the description that says that the spell originates from the casters fingers.
From here you only have two options.
1. That Chain lighting acts as a magic missle what originates from the casters finger but "finds" a clear path to a visible target.. or
2. That there is a straight line effect to the first target.
Using the spell description, I cant see another option.
I believe based on the type of spell, that the second option is the correct view....
Greg | |
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Benimoto
Underboss
1125 Posts
| | 10/24/2005 10:12 AM |
| | The rules as written have it as a targetted spell. Plenty of spells find their way to the target without hitting intervening creatures. Scorching rays (and all rays), fireballs, etc, all originate with the caster and then hit a target without affecting intervening creatures. I think that Chain Lightning is the same way. | |
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nyjastul69
Commander
2710 Posts
Rhode Island
| | 10/24/2005 10:26 AM |
| | Scorching ray requires a ranged touch attack. As such it can definitely hit an intervening creature, all that they do is provide cover. If you miss the targets armor class but still roll high enough to hit the cover, your buddy is toast. | |
You know, I keep thinking that after the new design team gets done with D&D 4e, D&D won't stand for Dungeons and Dragons anymore, because well, that's just not fun. It's old and stuffy. - Originally Posted by BabWryter on Kenzerco.com | |
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gregreid
Warrior
276 Posts
| | 10/24/2005 12:52 PM |
| Benimoto,
You prescribe to scenario one. Let me explain why I cant support this approach. Note the text that follows from the magic missle spell. I specifically calls out the attack as one that occurs without error regardless of cover or melee circumstance.
Text:
The missile strikes unerringly, even if the target is in melee combat or has less than total cover or total concealment.
Note your example from the Fireball Spell.
From the Fireball Spell.
A glowing, pea-sized bead streaks from the pointing digit and, unless it impacts upon a material body or solid barrier prior to attaining the prescribed range, blossoms into the fireball at that point.
If that pea has to go through a square occumpied by a material body, that body gets the fireball.
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Testament
Underboss
1397 Posts
| | 10/24/2005 10:24 PM |
| OK then nyjastul, then if it can's skip people, why is there no attack roll required? And who's to say you can't arc the lightning over people in between, mortar style? (we're talking about magic spells here, physics has no place. Otherwise a Lightning Bolt should be like a disintegrate spell, since it's cracking the 20,000,000 volt mark). And if you're so worried about the effect that starts at the caster's fingers skipping people, then I suppose you don't let people shoot past cover, do you?
And at any rate, w/r/t your Scorching Ray example, 3.5 RAW, you don't hit cover. | |
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| Thoth, Gatherer of Knowledge
MerricB
Underboss
2350 Posts
Australia
| | 10/25/2005 12:36 AM |
| G'day, people!
If you cast Chain Lightning, it hits no-one until it reaches its designated target.
Ditto for fireball. It happily proceeds to the intersection you nominate and then explodes.
Fireball, however, may explode prematurely if it hits something first. This won't be a creature (as creatures don't block line of effect), but may be a wall of force or similar.
Note that Magic Missile will strike the target without a problem as long as there is Line of Effect. Line of Effect is only blocked by hard cover, and barriers such as Wall of Force.
Cheers! | |
Merric Blackman
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gregreid
Warrior
276 Posts
| | 10/25/2005 5:31 AM |
| Merric,
I have to disagree with you on Fireball as it suggests very specifically that it will impact early if in does so on a material body. When you search the SRD for material body you find that it only refers to either a character or monsters body that exists on the Material Plane.
You seem to be suggesting that the "pea" in the fireball moves as if it has "line of effect" traits. There is nothing in the header of the description to suggest that.
I may however be changing my mind on the on the Chain Lightning. There is nothing in the description (like fireball) that suggests that the initial bolt travels in a line. I am beginning to see how the first bolt could be nothing more than a big arc therefore bypassing others in the "line"....
hmmm must think on this some more..
Greg | |
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| Thoth, Gatherer of Knowledge
MerricB
Underboss
2350 Posts
Australia
| | 10/25/2005 6:28 AM |
| quote:
You seem to be suggesting that the "pea" in the fireball moves as if it has "line of effect" traits. There is nothing in the header of the description to suggest that.
See PHB page 176, "Line of Effect". It even references fireball.
Cheers! | |
Merric Blackman
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Wraith
Warrior
312 Posts
| | 10/25/2005 8:48 AM |
| Fireball and chain lightning are casted at a target. Fireball is basically thrown at that target. We can go on for ever.
I have played in games weit would hit the first person in the way.
I DM in the way that MerricB and I describe.
Remember the DMG says it is up to us to make the game more flavorful.
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nyjastul69
Commander
2710 Posts
Rhode Island
| | 10/25/2005 9:11 AM |
| My Mon. game was last night and some points were bantered about in regards to this . I think I was too hung-up on the flavor text for Chain Lightning. By the gods do I hate flavor text. The spell parameters trump any description unless the description calls out an exception. CL doesn't. It won't hit any intervening creatures. The description of LB and CL are very similar (the first sentence or so) and I was going with CL acting like LB, there's no reason or precedent for that line of thinking.Wow did I screw my Mystic Theurge!
In regards to Fireball, it dances around creatures until it reaches the nominated spot, unless it's LoE is blocked, which creatures don't, so why wouldn't CL.
quote:
Originally posted by Testament:
And if you're so worried about the effect that starts at the caster's fingers skipping people, then I suppose you don't let people shoot past cover, do you?
Not without a chance of hitting it. See next response.[B)]
quote:
Originally posted by Testament:
And at any rate, w/r/t your Scorching Ray example, 3.5 RAW, you don't hit cover.
3.5 doesn't say anything about hitting cover, unlike 3.0. My bad. That's one of the problems when one plays D&D v. 3.187. I usually check myself before responding to questions like this to avoid situations like this. I think I failed an Int check and a spot check in the same round.[V] Apologies to Aegis Maul, and thanks to those that chimed in. | |
You know, I keep thinking that after the new design team gets done with D&D 4e, D&D won't stand for Dungeons and Dragons anymore, because well, that's just not fun. It's old and stuffy. - Originally Posted by BabWryter on Kenzerco.com | |
| Thoth, Gatherer of Knowledge
MerricB
Underboss
2350 Posts
Australia
| | 10/25/2005 6:25 PM |
| In 3.5e, hitting cover is a variant rule in the DMG.
Cheers! | |
Merric Blackman
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gregreid
Warrior
276 Posts
| | 10/26/2005 3:08 AM |
| I think we have the fireball wrong here. I can support the Chain Lightning story of it being targeted and not having a line effect. I am not sure I will run it that way in my campaign but I can understand the point of view.
I did read the reference that Merric pointed out on pg 176 of the PHB and it is a pretty weak use of fireball as an example of line of effect. In my belief and this may be only my belief, the order of priority should be given to
1. Offical Errata (none that applies)
2. The Spell Header
3. The Spell Description
4. Additional Information and Examples.
The official spell description indicates that a fireball "pea" can be detonated by a "material body". That does conflict with the example given on page 176 but in my order the spell description should be considered the higher authority. (just my opinion) There is nothing to suggest that once the pea leaves the finger that the spellcaster has any control of it whatsoever so the thought of it weaving through space doesnt make sense. The spell does say that it streaks to the target point frankly indicating a straight line. If it could weave, pointing it through small opening such as arrow slits would not require a range touch attack as mentioned... it would just weave its way though.
A section of the description is provided below for context.
You point your finger and determine the range (distance and height) at which the fireball is to burst. A glowing, pea-sized bead streaks from the pointing digit and, unless it impacts upon a material body or solid barrier prior to attaining the prescribed range, blossoms into the fireball at that point. (An early impact results in an early detonation.) If you attempt to send the bead through a narrow passage, such as through an arrow slit, you must 'hit' the opening with a ranged touch attack, or else the bead strikes the barrier and detonates prematurely.
Greg
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nyjastul69
Commander
2710 Posts
Rhode Island
| | 10/27/2005 9:07 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Merric:
In 3.5e, hitting cover is a variant rule in the DMG.
Thanks.
In regard to fireball, if you can't target the middle of a group of people then I think the spell loses a lot of it's functionality. As long as the caster can see the spot he wants it to detonate (creatures don't block LoS) at I don't have a problem with it passing through occupied spaces. | |
You know, I keep thinking that after the new design team gets done with D&D 4e, D&D won't stand for Dungeons and Dragons anymore, because well, that's just not fun. It's old and stuffy. - Originally Posted by BabWryter on Kenzerco.com | |
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